Assassin Forum = old school SWG Pistoleer Forum

[Priest of Fe]

c'mon guys. This forum feels very whiney for a sub-class that isn't nearly as broken as some others. And I say "broken" when all thats needed is a little adjustment. The game is pretty solid and relatively well-balanced. In the upcoming patch mages will do more damage, fighters less, and us scouts unchanged. I know, I know, all of your uber attacks should all be on 10 second timers, and agility should allow you to tank lvl50 epic mobs. Please.

 

Go look at all the highest magic and melee hits, and feel better about your class. Scouts are still the [FAAR-NERFED!], and we still do serious DPS.

[Kimira]

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Priest of Fear wrote:

c'mon guys. This forum feels very whiney for a sub-class that isn't nearly as broken as some others. And I say "broken" when all thats needed is a little adjustment. The game is pretty solid and relatively well-balanced. In the upcoming patch mages will do more damage, fighters less, and us scouts unchanged. I know, I know, all of your uber attacks should all be on 10 second timers, and agility should allow you to tank lvl50 epic mobs. Please.

 

Go look at all the highest magic and melee hits, and feel better about your class. Scouts are still the [FAAR-NERFED!], and we still do serious DPS.

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These boards were created to discuss your class, and when your class is worthless at level 42+ then assassins of the world are going to talk about it, and discuss what would help to make us what we're really supposed to be.  Deal with it, a change is needed, whether if it's quick or not, it needs attention now.

Highest hits are nothing, when you can hardly ever use them.  5 minutes for the melee, and 2 hours for the magic (which is pretty much instant argo getting, and will wipe your raid party) 

We are pretty much sterile.  Just think about it.  Esape 3/4 of the classes get at some point.  Wizards, Sk's at lvl 45, ect.  Our utility blows, and the only thing we're supposed to be good at is DPS, and our DPS is embarassing compared to higher level tanks, and even scouts that get more utility (swash/brigand)

[Priest of Fe]

>>These boards were created to discuss your class, and when your class is worthless at level 42+ then assassins of the world are going to talk about it, and discuss what would help to make us what we're really supposed to be.<<

 

see, this is what I'm talking about. Worthless at 42+? Oh the drama. My lvl 44 assassin buddy isn't modest at all when we have discussions regarding the dps levels between scouts and other classes.

 

Don't get me wrong, you guys have legitimate points regarding some finer issues about your CAs (a two hour timer for a CA is totally, utterly, completely, non-arguably RIDICULOUS) but lets take a look at the big picture: it really seems from a mechanics point of view that assassins are meant to be the front-loaded dmg specialists. As such, I agree that some of your CAs should be more forgiving in the timer department, but some of you want smaller timers with even more damage, and thats just going to lead down the dark path of nerf-herding calls from other classes.

 

This thinking that suddenly scouts (or perhaps some of you think just assassins) are "sterile" is just drama. Brigands dont have a whole lot more utility than assassins. Group sneak is cool sometimes, but other than than that we seem to share all the other common utilities that scouts get invited to groups for (with bards, of course, having the most utility). As for the tanks, they are getting effectively nerfed with the upcoming changes to str dmg bonuses. So while scouts the world over [FAAR-NERFED!] and moan about our agility nerf (which may have been arguably a bit too heavy-handed) tanks will be shortly going through the same.

 

This urgent call for a change right NOW just underscores my perceptions. Out of all the classes (with the exceptions of priests) we are most where we need to be. All scouts really need are fine-tune adjustments. I for one think its a happy problem. While the fighters and mages ride the rollercoaster of buff this, nerf that, scouts will enjoy small, meaningful changes. No big nerfs, no big boosts, just fixes and adjustments that make sense.

 

When tanks just tank (like they're supposed to) and you see a pile of dead mage bodies from the aggro they are going to be earning with their upcoming ultra-nukes, us scouts will be smiling happily, still doing serious dps and surviving to brag about it.

Message Edited by Priest of Fear on 02-16-2005 10:47 AM

[frogspawn]

I'll agree. While I'm not 38+ or 42+ or wherever the class breaks down a bit it does seem that the fixes that are needed are pretty simple things. I think the devs get it and will get to it. It's not like swg where the whole system was broke and you weren't sure the devs had any idea how to fix it. The game is still young. Any mmo this far in is going to need tweaks and balances, but the core of this game is there and that's what I'm excited about. For now, I'm happy questing, adventuring and tradeskilling. I'll take my time getting to the higher levels so hopefully they'll be tweaked by time I get there. Plus, I'm a weaponsmith--I don't have time to [FAAR-NERFED!] about an assassin class that mostly works.

[khalysta]

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Priest of Fear wrote:

And I say "broken" when all thats needed is a little adjustment.

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A little adjustment?  I think the stacking of 2 assassins or 2 rangers in a group is actually a bit more than a little adjustment.  My friend is also an assassin and we are both the same level yet honestly do more detriment grouping together.  One of my adept3s totally stops him from using his due to the debuff associated with it which in turn slows the group down.  If one or the other gains a level then essentially every art is unuseable with one or 2 exceptions.  One of our big moves also adds to our effective level by 2 which also has the same side effect of gimping any other close level assassin in the group.  Most groups know this well and I have seen them intentionally not group good assassins just because the two don't stack yet after patch I don't believe any group would turn down having 2 or more wizards. 

Go back 2 weeks and I remember the outcry over ruse from brigands yet the same level move for an assassin and likely similar damage has been broke since beta.   If you haven't noticed the level 21 spells of the two evilish subclasses brigand(ruse) and dirge(lanets) are used through level 50 and loved by both classes.  Assassin's get assassin's mark which hasn't done anything since in beta.  You can use it but don't even get any feedback on it's "extreme" damage so it would be nice to finally get this working before the first expansion   Also there are a number of app4s that seem broke or app1s that you can exploit which all lead to the feeling that things are "broken".

When it comes to fighters I don't see any change.  Moorgard listed ranges of strength that are getting altered in the patch notes.  Guess what though I am near the same strength or at least the same range as brawlers and zerkers yet still are outdamaged.  So if you alter the damage done in those ranges down then you still come out with the same thing effectively.  For example I was grouped with a bruiser the other day. I did a quick inspect and he had roughly 20 strength on me yet always outdamaged me even with the alchemist poisons.  Post patch we will still both be in the 100-199 strength range and still have the same bonuses so where is the nerf there?  The fact is nothing really changes other than making it appear like a good patch but the parsers will still show the same results post patch for fighter vs scout.

I never played SWG though so no idea what the old pistoleer forum was like but honestly this forum seems pretty calm overall compared to some of the EQLive forums.  EQLive rangers forums were whine thread after whine thread which I honestly don't see a lot of here except with a few exceptions but every forum has a few whiners.  Most posts here are fairly rational about things that are broke and not like the "OMGZ I am quitting and going to insertgamehere if this isnt fixed" like certain other class forums are filled with.  So yes some things are broke and some more serious than others but I don't really think its all that bad compared to other class forums overall

Message Edited by khalysta on 02-16-2005 12:00 PM

[frogspawn]

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khalysta wrote:

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Priest of Fear wrote:

And I say "broken" when all thats needed is a little adjustment.

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A little adjustment? I think the stacking of 2 assassins or 2 rangers in a group is actually a bit more than a little adjustment. they need to allow the dmg thru from those combat arts that are a debuff/dd combo. seems like a simple enough solution to me.

[Priest of Fe]

Citing a group dynamics issue still isn't convincing me that scouts are doomed to solo. Are there issues? Sure. I've said that already. There are brigand skills that are bugged as well. Every class has issues. However, working towards the Dev's vision of dps being in the order of mage, scout, fighter, priest, i find that priests and scouts are closest in terms of the respective class abilities to what the Dev's intend.

 

>>For example I was grouped with a bruiser the other day. I did a quick inspect and he had roughly 20 strength on me yet always outdamaged me even with the alchemist poisons.  Post patch we will still both be in the 100-199 strength range and still have the same bonuses so where is the nerf there?<<

 

That most likely has to do with auto-attack dmg. According to some posts parsing scout dmg, anywhere from 25-40% of our dmg comes from auto-attack. Alternatively, i've read posts parsing fighter dmg putting their auto-attack at like 80% of their total dmg output. Since str directly effects everyone's default auto-attack, It makes sense that fighters with a huge bonus from str are still out dps'ing you despite the fact you have an equal str. So theres your nerf. With fighters more reliant on auto-attack for overall dps, a str bonus nerf effects them far more than a scout who mostly relies on CAs for dps.

 

>>I never played SWG though so no idea what the old pistoleer forum was like but honestly this forum seems pretty calm overall compared to some of the EQLive forums.<<

 

hehe, and i've never been to the EQLive forums, but I can imagine. I havn't played SWG in a couple years (hence the "old school" being in front :robotwink: ) but the pistoleers during the first few months of release had it all, dps, skills that worked, and pistols which basically had no range penalty (due to the whacked limited range system) yet they still found reason to call nerf on other classes and claim to be gimped. This isn't a nerf-herder forum, but assassins do alright and I just can't see where all the doom and gloom is coming from.

 

I suppose we will know once and for all when the Big Patch finally goes live and everyone whips out their parsers. Oh, what a dramatic day that is destined to be :robotvery-happy:

 

 

Message Edited by Priest of Fear on 02-16-2005 03:38 PM

[khalysta]

Just because it appears to be a "simple" fix for us doesnt mean it is for them and hence why we have yet to see any changes on a problem they have known about since early in beta.

[Priest of Fe]

I could link you to brigand skills that have been broken for months as well, if it makes you feel better. Whats more deterimental to overall game play? dps being completely out of whack or the fact you cant fully utilize 2 assassins in a group?

[Grinda]

if i group with the following group setup:Shadow Knight (mt)Beserker (2nd t)Dirge/Troubador (utility/DPs)Me (45 Assassin)WizardTemplarThis happens...The mana/Hp regen because of the dirge is sufficient that the group hardly needs bother with drink/food.The mana regen because of the dirge is such that you only need the one healer (so long as hes properly made his toon and has good power pool and adept spells)The whole group has + haste because of the Dirge and increased movement speed, like.... crazy movement speed, with pathfinding its like having a 9platt horse in a Dungeon. The haste effect really helps the whole group but most effectivley the Dirge and Assassin.The Str buff from the Dirge and the Beserker means the Assassin daels damage the way hes supposed to, around 2000 hits with Condeming Blade on AVERAGE so possible to hit harder.This is, from an Assassins point of view, my perfect group. why? because my toon behaves the way he should do anyway.

Message Edited by Grindath on 02-17-2005 04:29 AM

[Darqz]

Priest,

  I think you've been looking at this board all wrong.  Most of the times I have scanned through this board there have been a complaint mainly about the damage we do or our poisons.  CLASS DEFINING things.  The rest of the posts are people asking for help or looking for advice.  Now jump over the the SK boards or the Bruiser boards.  I know for a fact the Bruiser boards were filled with crying and whining about pink AQ armor...  That got changed in 2 patches.  Bruisers found out that we as scouts/Assassins had the ability to off tank and felt thier role was being threatened.  The agility nerf then came along to balance it out.  The strength nerf may balance things out abit, but please keep in mind when SOE messes with Base values such as STR, AGIL, STA, Etc.  this effects all classes.  Instead of just adjusting the mitigation or damage for one class this is applied across the board.  So while STR capping will eventually lower the effect on tanks, this will also have an effect on Scouts as well.  Unless I missed something that excluded scouts from the strength nerf.  I know the Shadowknights are in an uproar too because of thier movement on thier fun horsey spell has been reduced.  So out of the two fighter boards aside from the usual "we take too much damage" or "we don't do enough damage posts" you will find them whining about insignificant things.  What you have seen here is a quiet board that would just like a few things addressed to let us know that "yes we know there is a problem with the damage of the scout class, or no we at SOE do not see a real problem with the damage of the scout class".  Many of our points that we have listed on this board are considered serious, at least to most of us, issues that negatively effect the game play and sometimes the enjoyability of our class. 

 

   One more thing to add Priest.  Each class has a utility subset, damage subset, and an between subset.  Assassin/Ranger falls in the Damage where we have given up every group utility to do damage.  Brigands/Swashies would be an inbetween, and Dirges/Troubies would be a utility subset.  The scary thing for some of us assassins that we realize is that when you are looking for a group you would like something that benifits the whole group.  If our damage isn't considered desirable, and we have no utilities our grouping is therefore limited.  The same way you do not choose a fury to heal a gaurdian and SK combo is the same logic behind most grouping situations.  Yes you can get away with it, but if there is a templar out there that can heal with less power drain most would take that over a fury.  While your right in stating we are not solely left to solo (in a game where grouping is usually the best way to go), the stackability of our abilities limits what and how we group.  Again I understand your reasoning for us to be patient and feelings that there is constant whining but please take a look at the issues that are on hand and consider it. 

 

  Please don't take what I'm about to say as an offensive "slam" against you but if you are honestly tired of our whining feel free to skip over the posts that do whine or go to another forum such as the brigands.  These forums are a healthy and constructive way for us to express our feelings about the game and its dynamics. 

[frogspawn]

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khalysta wrote:

Just because it appears to be a "simple" fix for us doesnt mean it is for them and hence why we have yet to see any changes on a problem they have known about since early in beta.

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point taken.

[Priest of Fe]

no offense taken at all, I just honestly don't see the sky falling for scouts. Scouts seem inordinately worried about caster DPS. Take the poor sod that one-starred me for instance. He/she would be much happier playing a new warlock it would seem.

 

I mean, think for a moment: what real, tangible effect is doing the most dps in the game going to have while wearing pajamas (light armor)? We are going to see the bodies piled high and the group debt creep up as overzealous warlocks/wizards flex their mighty dps for all to see.

 

"hey bob, you just did 3000 dmg! wow!"

 

"can i get a rez pls?"

 

So where does that leave the med armor-wearing scouts with aggro avoidance abilities? The same place they were before. I truly, honestly do not see things changing drastically for any scout class.

 

Its very possible we will see a huge glut of casters after the update. Imagine a sea of warlocks and wizards competing for group spots, and then them all promptly dying from lack of any means to mitigate aggro. Its almost kind of funny. Meanwhile, scouts will still be putting up the big numbers and surviving.

 

I see casters becoming exactly like blasters in CoH, including all the allure and stigma that comes with being the dps glass cannon. We will see posts calling for nerfs, posts stereo-typing the new casters as dangerous undisciplined cowboys bringing loads of group debt, posts bragging about dps (heh heh, like there's not enough of those already, everyone get your parsers out), etc etc.

 

If all this speculation comes to pass, what do you think intelligent group-builders are going to do: invite a caster who cant even fully utilize their uberness without creating a headache for both the healers and the MT, or the slightly-less-than uber scout still able to use his abilities full bore?

 

just some food for thought.