MYTH: Assassins are spike-based damage, while Rogues are consistant damage.

UpurBloodst · 12-26-2004, 10:39 AM

I've been reading some boards lately, and I've read many times that Assassins are the spike-based damage dealers, while Brigands, Swashies, and Ranger do consistant damage.

So far, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever to support this as a level 36 Assassin.

The only skill that would ever seem to perpetuate this myth is Assassin's Blade, and it's upgrade, Condemning Blade. These skills are both on a 5 minute timer, and will generally put any other melee hit to shame. While these skills are nice, they are only a nice addition to our main DPS skills such as Shadow Blade and it's upgrade(s), Poisoner's Blade and it's upgrade(s), Impale and it's upgrade(s), Shrouded Strike and it's upgrade(s), Bleed and it's upgrade(s), Pierce and it's upgrade(s), and of course, Sneak Attack. All of these skills listed recharge quickly (with the possible exception of the Shadow Blade line) and do fairly nice and consistant damage. These skills are where the super majority of the Assassin's damage comes from, not the 5 minute recharge on the Assassin's Blade line.

I've always known that the Assassin class wasn't a member of the spike-based damage paradigm for some time now, but since I enjoy trying to prove myself wrong, I downloaded the very handy parser at www.thescoutssanctuary.com. Btw, thanks a bunch for that tool and the website Khalysta.

Anyways, the results were essentially what I had expected. I grouped with both a Swashbuckler and a Brigand for about 3 hours, and kept track of the damage being done by each of us. The Assassin(myself) was level 36, the Swashbuckler was level 37, and the Brigand was level 36. Their gear and stats were fairly updated, just as mine were. They all were active in the group, and I didn't consider their DPS totals if they joined the fight late, were AFK for a portion of the fight, or if there was anything I could notice that would possibly alter the results. As far as I know, they both know how to play their classes with a decent level of efficiency. We were killing Blight Rats in Rivervale for the entire time, and these numbers are only from fights with Blight Rats. They both reported that they have most Adept 1's for their skills, and each had a couple Adept 3's. I had Adept 1 for pretty much all of my skills, and no Adept 2's, 3's, or Masters. I gave them all a tier 3 poison to keep on their weapons, so that wouldn't be a factor.

The Swashbuckler generally averaged around 60 DPS per fight. Occasionally, he would do some 70 DPS fights, but he also had a few 45-50 DPS fights.

The Brigand did seem to have a bit higher DPS than the Swashbuckler, as I expected. He averaged around 70 DPS, with a few lower DPS and higher DPS. Overall, both the Brigand and the Swashbuckler were very steady in their damage dealing.

Now, with myself, the Assassin of course, the averages were a bit more interesting. As I expected, I was able to keep my DPS much higher both the Swashbuckler and the Brigand even on fights without using the 5 minute recharge "extreme damage" skill. Without using this skill, I consistantly did anywhere from 75 up to 100 DPS per fight. When I did use Assassin's blade in a fight, which happened about every 4 fights, the extra 700-1300 damage boosted my DPS for that fight to anywhere from 100 to 150.

Basically, the idea that Assassin's do damage in spikes is a myth. They do consistant damage greater than or equal to that of the other scouts, or at least Brigand and Swashbucklers. However, they do have one (two, if your counting Assassinate) "spike-damage" abilities.

However, that does not, by any means, make Assassins "better" than the other rogue classes. Assassin have almost no utility in comparison with Swashbucklers and Brigands, as you know. Assassins, as far as I know playing up to level 36, are essentially pure damage dealing machines. I, personally, don't like to think of them not having utility, however. It depends how you define utility, really. I see the Assassin's utility as being able to do an instant, and very extreme attack every 5 minutes to finish off or freatly weaken a mob. Their utility is being able to kill, which is very defining for an Assassin.

Why did the myth that Assassin's are only spike-damage, and other scouts are consistant damage start, anyways?

Personally, I think it is mainly because people are obsessed with seperating each of the classes. They want their class to be different from another class, and they want other classes to be different from theirs. It is very boring to simply define Brigands, Swashbucklers, Assassins, Rangers as just nice DD's. Some people want to diversify their abilities in order to create an illusion of uniqueness, even though there is very little evidence to support that uniqueness.

khalysta · 12-26-2004, 11:00 AM

The myth started in beta. We didnt get shrouded strike until the end. So we were essentially shadowblade to start then use stalk mid fight with poisoners. Now we have shrouded strike/poisoners blade as a powerful combo and you can't ignore insidious cut/impale for its damage either. So much of the pre-release info said we were very burst oriented though so its going to be hard to overcome especially with some very high spikes still existing its just that those are actually a small part of our damage compared to the overall which people dont realize. the 300s and 800+ from ebon blade and assassin's blade are the ones they really notice while the constant 150s they seem to ignore. So let them think that so we don't get nerfed SMILEY

Mack · 12-27-2004, 05:57 AM

Ive used stat programs for some time now and assassins are always highest in dps, they have highest dps on all mobs and the spike attacks do a extra dmg burst. We are a pure dps class with nothing to give the group, rouges have a bit lower dps but some other skills that help them in other ways we cant. Under assassin ive seen some sorcerers/summoners and brawlers come about equal with rogues and sometimes a bit higher. On ae wiz is without a doubt the best dpser.

Im 37now so had a few lvls to compare my dps info with other classes.

Derg · 12-28-2004, 02:49 PM

A level 43 swashbuckler here and i think you guys are dreaming a little bit. First of all did you tell your groupmembers that you were parsing? If not you can throw the entire log information out the window for obvious reasons. I have been parsing with a lvl 43 assasin (both same gear FBSS, SBD,Bloody sabre) and our dmg is very alike. I do a little bit more dmg on fight where he didnt use the 5 min skill he does more on the fight where he used it and it all equals out in the end.

Now what you should be concerned about is that tank classes like the berserker are doing 80-90% of our DPS which is imho totally rediculous for a tank class.

A lvl 40 berserker was doing 3200 a fight while i was doing 4800 and thats with a 3 lvl difference and he didnt have FBSS...

Respox · 12-28-2004, 02:58 PM

Yeah, assassins and swashbucklers are about the same DPS. We had some fights where our damage was only 20 or so away, then a few where i had a few hundred more, others where he had a few hundred more ect. It all evens out in the end to be about the same dps there really is no difference in the dps of swash and assassin we parsed for an hour or 2 straight and got the same results.

spydder · 12-28-2004, 07:40 PM

This thread hold little to no water. As the above poster mentioned did you tell them you were parcing?did you use poison? were you hasted, buffed? did they use poison? were you using like weapons? i would like to see that log also and post the real results on the boards, feel free to PM it to me.

Elv · 12-29-2004, 12:10 AM

" did they use poison ? "

Guess you didnt fully read the intial post, and just skipped to the part where you become a troll.

Assassins - Teh Win~

Ra · 12-29-2004, 03:06 AM

UpurBloodstab wrote:

Now, with myself, the Assassin of course, the averages were a bit more interesting. As I expected, I was able to keep my DPS much higher both the Swashbuckler and the Brigand even on fights without using the 5 minute recharge "extreme damage" skill. Without using this skill, I consistantly did anywhere from 75 up to 100 DPS per fight. When I did use Assassin's blade in a fight, which happened about every 4 fights, the extra 700-1300 damage boosted my DPS for that fight to anywhere from 100 to 150.

Basically, the idea that Assassin's do damage in spikes is a myth. They do consistant damage greater than or equal to that of the other scouts, or at least Brigand and Swashbucklers. However, they do have one (two, if your counting Assassinate) "spike-damage" abilities.

While Damage over Time is important to factor in overall balance, Damage per mob is relevant and practical to gauge. Your two "spike-damage" abilities raised your DPS up to 50 above the other fights. If that isn't a spike, I don't know what is...

What defines the spike is when you consider your sub-class counterpart - Ranger. Rogue sub-classes are balanced differently because they offer more utility to a group. Rangers are Assassin's direct mirror sub-class. Comparing what you just did is like comparing a Wizard's DPS to a Conjuror's.

Assassin's DPS is on a 5 minute cycle. Rangers DPS is on a 1 minute cycle. Assassin's need that spike damage to balance their Damage over Time. As a Ranger, I can use every damage CA every fight. In respect, Assassin's can use all their skills once every 4-5 mobs.

Of course the rest of your damage in the 5 minutes will outpace the uber damage Assassin's Blade ( ^ Condemning Blade), but the spike recieved from that skill balanced Damage over Time. Hence, said description.

Message Edited by Ravi on 12-28-2004 02:16 PM

UpurBloodst · 12-29-2004, 04:11 AM

"Assassin's DPS is on a 5 minute cycle. Rangers DPS is on a 1 minute cycle. Assassin's need that spike damage to balance their Damage over Time."

That's exactly what my parse logs have proven wrong. Did you even read my post? :smileytongue:

Yes - I did tell them I was parsing. No, I don't know if they did everything they could to do the most damage possible or didn't. There really isn't a way for me to know that. As far as poison and weapons go...read my post...

What I got from these logs is that, as I expected, Assassin's consistant and steady DPS without our spike damage ability is higher than either of the two rogue classes' total consistant DPS. If played correctly, we don't even need to use our single spike-damage skill to "catch-up" to either rogues' DPS values. That's just an added bonus to embarass the rogues every 5 minutes. :smileywink:

If you think any of my numbers are off - feel free to bring any level 37-39 rogue character to the Guk server and we'll compare our DPS. I'm very confident we won't see results any less similar than what I've posted. Make sure you have the parse program too, so you can't claim that I've been making the numbers up.

Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-28-2004 03:13 PM

Respox · 12-29-2004, 06:46 AM

dont post if you dont know what you're talking about. assassins get big hits that are 1min reuse also. 2 of them infact then a bunch of 10-20sec recast skills, and a pretty high dmg 30sec reuse bow skill. I parsed a rangers dps he was doing 1-2k per fight LESS then me. he was 3 lvls lower but 3 lvls wont add another 1-2k.

Message Edited by Respox on 12-28-2004 08:47 PM

Ra · 12-29-2004, 07:04 PM

UpurBloodstab wrote:

"Assassin's DPS is on a 5 minute cycle. Rangers DPS is on a 1 minute cycle. Assassin's need that spike damage to balance their Damage over Time."

That's exactly what my parse logs have proven wrong. Did you even read my post? :smileytongue:

I need to ask - did you read mine? Or just what you quoted?

Yes - I did tell them I was parsing. No, I don't know if they did everything they could to do the most damage possible or didn't. There really isn't a way for me to know that. As far as poison and weapons go...read my post...

What I got from these logs is that, as I expected, Assassin's consistant and steady DPS without our spike damage ability is higher than either of the two rogue classes' total consistant DPS. If played correctly, we don't even need to use our single spike-damage skill to "catch-up" to either rogues' DPS values. That's just an added bonus to embarass the rogues every 5 minutes. :smileywink:

Again.. since you didn't read my post... Steady DPS is why for one fight, your DPS is spiked by 50?

If you think any of my numbers are off - feel free to bring any level 37-39 rogue character to the Guk server and we'll compare our DPS. I'm very confident we won't see results any less similar than what I've posted. Make sure you have the parse program too, so you can't claim that I've been making the numbers up.

Again, read my post - you have effectively compared a Wizard to a Conjuror and are passing it off as a fair comparison. And furthermore, are claiming that steady DPS means that you are consistently doing more damage than a class that is balanced by different means. Great... happy for you.. I think I can do more damage than a bard. Maybe I will parse that.

Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-28-2004 03:13 PM

Ra · 12-29-2004, 07:17 PM

Respox wrote:

dont post if you dont know what you're talking about. assassins get big hits that are 1min reuse also. 2 of them infact then a bunch of 10-20sec recast skills, and a pretty high dmg 30sec reuse bow skill. I parsed a rangers dps he was doing 1-2k per fight LESS then me. he was 3 lvls lower but 3 lvls wont add another 1-2k.

Message Edited by Respox on 12-28-2004 08:47 PM

So do Rangers. Since I must explain it to you...

Assassin's damage cycle is 5 minutes BECAUSE they have a high damage ability that adds a considerable amount of DPS on a 5 minute timer. That means when parsing, comparing an Assassin's DPS to a Rogue's or Ranger's DPS that is UNDER a 5 minute period will give skewed results.

First off, the funny thing about Rangers is there is a lot of non-combat quirks to do to increase DPS. For instance, where you buy your arrows makes a huge difference. Arrows purchased from a Bowyer/Fletcher do almost twice the damage as arrows bought from a merchant. The arrow you use makes a huge difference because you can buy either slashing or piercing. And GG SOE for not labeling or marking the difference.

LOL 3 levels lower?? I need to ask.. what level are you and what was he? And do I need to remind you that Level > * in this game. Meaning, a group of 30s is twice as good as a group of 25s when fighting the same mob.

/rofl

Message Edited by Ravi on 12-29-2004 06:55 AM

Fera · 12-30-2004, 12:11 AM

Wonderful post, I have also always suspected that assasins had more dps, even without condemned blade.
You should never expect an assasin to stay low because his cooldown just started, we have a huge arsenal of skills that can shine and do some good damage.

I have also always wondered how you check the dps of the party? I have asked around in the game and nobody knows, It would be great if you could help me with this.

Cheers.

Btw, is it possible to change my username on the forums? My brother registered and he did not use an appropriate name.

UpurBloodst · 12-30-2004, 12:14 AM

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across, but I think you think I included the 5 minute damage spike into ALL of my DPS "reports".

I'm saying that even without using that skill, I can still outdamage both the rogue classes with my other abilities easily and on a regular basis. Hence, I don't need any damage spike from that skill at all to "catch-up" to rogue DPS.

Also, what is wrong with comparing DPS between a conjuror and a wizard? If one does more damage than the other, then one does more damage than the other. There isn't really anything to it. This isn't a topic about "overall net usefullness", this is a topic about DPS and how capable each class is of producing it. Sure, each class in the game can do their damage in different ways, but DPS is an easily calculated variable that we can measure.

Damage is damage is damage is damage.

Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-29-2004 11:19 AM

m · 12-30-2004, 12:18 AM

The other rogues classes (except for ranger) are not pure dps so the comparison is asanine. The same is true for a comparison between wizards and conjurors. Conjurors are not pure dps, so saying a wizard or assassin does better dps is like almost as trivial as saying an assassin does better dps than a templar.

UpurBloodst · 12-30-2004, 12:39 AM

Glad to see someone understands of of the main points of the post.

Now I'm waiting to find a Wizard and compare DPS there.

Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-29-2004 11:41 AM

Ra · 12-30-2004, 12:43 AM

UpurBloodstab wrote:

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across, but I think you think I included the 5 minute damage spike into ALL of my DPS "reports".

You didn't and that's great (I was explaining that part to the other guy). But you are comparing 2 different subclasses and claiming that a spike doesn't exist because you flatten the Brigand in all attempts - even though your damage spikes for the fight you use your 5 minute ability. A Brigand is balanced differently because it offers more Utility to a group. If you didn't do more damage than a Brigand, you wouldn't ever get an invite because of what he offers in terms of Utility.

I'm saying that even without using that skill, I can still outdamage both the rogue classes with my other abilities easily and on a regular basis. Hence, I don't need any damage spike from that skill at all to "catch-up" to rogue DPS.

Ok, but it's kind of moot IMO. because of the reason above.

Also, what is wrong with comparing DPS between a conjuror and a wizard? If one does more damage than the other, then one does more damage than the other. There isn't really anything to it. This isn't a topic about "overall net usefullness", this is a topic about DPS and how capable each class is of producing it. Sure, each class in the game can do their damage in different ways, but DPS is an easily calculated variable that we can measure.

What is wrong is SOE has balanced the classes differently so they bring advantages to the group in different instances. So any parse attempt will provide skewed favortism toward whatever class/subclass can perform better in said situation. It's bad enough to compare an Assassin to a Ranger - which are both in the same class. But comparing a Brigand to an Assassin is like comparing an apple to an orange. Sure they are fruit but they taste completely different.

Damage is damage is damage is damage.

Wrong. Classes aren't balanced on X. They are balanced on X and Y and Z.

Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-29-2004 11:19 AM

Message Edited by Ravi on 12-29-2004 12:57 PM

Shidip · 12-30-2004, 01:51 AM

Wow...you guys are amazing...

Let me try and help out.

Upur's post is trying to discount the "Myth" that Assassins are a burst DPS class...meaning that out of all the DPS class, Assassins "make-up" DPS through the 5 min timed attack. (Not everyone believes this, but some do)

This takes into account all normally thought of DPS classes ( Rogues, Predators, Mages, etc)

YES...that still means we are a burst DPS class, but that burst lets us out-damage other DPS classes, not compensate.

What he is trying to show is that our DPS is comparable with other "DPS" classes without the 5 min attack.

Ravi is saying that you shouldn't compare Assassins to other DPS classes, because those other classes are intended to do less DPS and make up for it with "utilities".

That is fine, but Upur's post is about disproving teh "Myth" that all DPS classes are the same and that Assassins need to "burst" in order to keep up with the other DPS classes.

Obviously you don't believe the Myth, Ravi, so you are in agreement with Upur.

So...actually I think you guys are BOTH agreeing that Assassins are compareable to other DPS class.

However, Assassins get the Utility of a high damage attack while the other DPS classes get other "Utilities"

I hope that makes sense and we can all get along now... SMILEY

Message Edited by Shidipoo on 12-29-2004 12:53 PM

m · 12-30-2004, 02:07 AM

At lvl 28 I cycle through 3x(~30)/tick + 400 + 160 + 110 +160 every 15 seconds or so. That's assuming the DoTs are already applied and that I don't have to convert mana. So a conservative estimate, I get about 65dps. I usually only fight in groups on yellow ^ or better mobs, so that gives you an idea of where wizards stand.

Message Edited by mjw on 12-29-2004 04:09 PM

Ra · 12-30-2004, 02:37 AM

Shidipoo wrote:

Wow...you guys are amazing...

Let me try and help out.

Upur's post is trying to discount the "Myth" that Assassins are a burst DPS class...meaning that out of all the DPS class, Assassins "make-up" DPS through the 5 min timed attack. (Not everyone believes this, but some do)

This takes into account all normally thought of DPS classes ( Rogues, Predators, Mages, etc)

YES...that still means we are a burst DPS class, but that burst lets us out-damage other DPS classes, not compensate.

What he is trying to show is that our DPS is comparable with other "DPS" classes without the 5 min attack.

Ravi is saying that you shouldn't compare Assassins to other DPS classes, because those other classes are intended to do less DPS and make up for it with "utilities".

That is fine, but Upur's post is about disproving teh "Myth" that all DPS classes are the same and that Assassins need to "burst" in order to keep up with the other DPS classes.

Obviously you don't believe the Myth, Ravi, so you are in agreement with Upur.

So...actually I think you guys are BOTH agreeing that Assassins are compareable to other DPS class.

However, Assassins get the Utility of a high damage attack while the other DPS classes get other "Utilities"

I hope that makes sense and we can all get along now...

Message Edited by Shidipoo on 12-29-2004 12:53 PM

All I am saying is Brigand is from the Rogue Class. And Assassin is from the Predator class.

Each class is balanced in different ways

Predator

Damage - A

Utility - D

Rogue

Damage - B

Utility - C

Bard

Damage - D

Utility - A

These are arbitrary of course, but saying that a Predator class beats a Rogue class in DPS.. well I say "Duh?"

I'm not agreeing that Assassin's are comparable to other DPS classes. Because they aren't. What they *should* be comparable to is a Ranger because they are both from the Predator class and each offer about the same things.

Although it is good to know that a Predator class does indeed outdamage a Rogue class. Because if they didn't, Predator classes would have a hard time selling themselves to a group.

Another way to look at this is - when parsing against a Ranger, maybe the "spike damage" will become more apparent because we should pretty much run neck and neck throughout a 5 minute parse. That 2000 damage 5 minute ability would add 6 to Damage over Time of 5 minutes. That is a considerable amount from a single skill.

UpurBloodst · 12-30-2004, 05:35 AM

" But comparing a Brigand to an Assassin is like comparing an apple to an orange. Sure they are fruit but they taste completely different."

Comparing the two classes as a whole is definately akin to comparing apples and oranges.

However, comparing how much damage they can put out is just like comparing an apple to an apple. One of the apples is going to weigh more than the other.

Looking forward to testing my DPS against a Wizard. I have a feeling I won't stand a chance against Wizard AoE abilities.

Ra · 12-30-2004, 08:34 PM

UpurBloodstab wrote:

" But comparing a Brigand to an Assassin is like comparing an apple to an orange. Sure they are fruit but they taste completely different."

Comparing the two classes as a whole is definately akin to comparing apples and oranges.

However, comparing how much damage they can put out is just like comparing an apple to an apple. One of the apples is going to weigh more than the other.

Looking forward to testing my DPS against a Wizard. I have a feeling I won't stand a chance against Wizard AoE abilities.

I guess I'm just arguing the myth and not you. Even though it's hard to fathom that this is even a myth in the first place...

Hook up a parse with a Ranger when you can. I am anxious to see one.

Message Edited by Ravi on 12-30-2004 07:40 AM

Message Edited by Ravi on 12-30-2004 07:42 AM

Respox · 12-31-2004, 05:09 AM

rangers are horrible dps i try my best not to group with them, i asked a ranger to go max dps he could on a mob he was 40 i was 43 and he still did about 1-2k LESS then me per fight without me using Condemning blade. Most of my skills are app 2 some adept 1 but nothing special mostly just 1 dot and a green bow shot. Rangers get left behind in dps if you ask me. He said it was because i had SBD and FBSS while he had 2 dif weaps and no fbss, i looked at piercing dmg and he only did 50 less then me with piercing damage because we were mostly just using skills anyways.

Nagora · 12-31-2004, 03:05 PM

Did you take into account the damage done by Ruse for the Brigand? It is not listed as their damage. It hits for 300-500 damage around level 20, on a one minute timer. It's damage is just slightly less than our 5 minute refresh attack, but it comes back every minute.

I hate to say it, but I have a hard time believing we as Assassins outdamage Brigands once you take into account the damage of Ruse.

Message Edited by Nagorak3 on 12-31-2004 02:11 AM

Elv · 12-31-2004, 07:29 PM

Currently Lv33, Skills I use in battle along with there timers and effects

Assassins Blade : 900 - 1100 dmg : 5min timer

Ebon Blade : 350 - 550 dmg : 1 min timer ( Peircing debuff )

Cloaked Barb : 200 - 400 dmg : 1min timer

Cut throat : 150 - 275 dmg : 1min timer ( Silence's the mob )

Then the skills that have a timer of 30sec or less

Exposed Atk : 100 - 175 dmg ( debuff, increases assassins dmg )

Poisoners Blade: 150 - 250 dmg ( Poison debuff )

Cut : 75 - 125 dmg ( intial hit plus DoT )

Insidious Cut : 100 - 125 dmg ( slashing debuff )

Agonizing wound : 35 - 50 dmg ( double hit with DoT )

Deadly shot : 100 - 150 dmg ( Doublt shot * two arrows )

Sneak Atk : 50 - 90 dmg ( N00b skill, but quick timer )

* then the self haste buff / AGI ( bleeders talent ) to boot.

** Also I use Caustic Goo 150 skill Poison, 83 Proc dmg then 53 a tick DoT

This is about all I can remember off the top of my head, currently at work... But gives you and idea of our abilities.

When it comes to dealing out dmg.

cprochal · 12-31-2004, 11:56 PM

Nagorak3 wrote:

Did you take into account the damage done by Ruse for the Brigand? It is not listed as their damage. It hits for 300-500 damage around level 20, on a one minute timer. It's damage is just slightly less than our 5 minute refresh attack, but it comes back every minute.

I hate to say it, but I have a hard time believing we as Assassins outdamage Brigands once you take into account the damage of Ruse.

Message Edited by Nagorak3 on 12-31-2004 02:11 AM

Regarding the topic: I finally glad someone wrote this to dispell the misunderstanding that we are all burst dmg. I see in other scout forums that capitalized on our assassin's blade so much in explaining our subclass. I often see forums refering to many of our abilities being on 5 min timers with blanket statements such as - Assassins are burst damage and have to wait 5 minutes on their timers before doing their heavy hits again. It frustrates me to see statements like that given that as explained much of our high dps hits are on 1 min timers or less. The assassin's blade/Condeming blade is just an icing on the cake special we have (but definitely not class defining).

Regarding the quote: I also see that someone mentioned what I was going to mention about Brigands and Ruse. I believe Ruse will NOT show up on dmg parsers because the credit does not go to the Brigand doing the FD hit but to the group. This can add up and from what I understand it's a 60 sec timer with big hits. This is often forgotten in forums as well when scout subclasses compare Brigands to other scout classes. You can't ignore this special Brigands have it's pretty hefty. Having said that, I don't know if I agree with the quoted poster about Brigands out damaging us because of that but I'd say if anything it's darn close if not equal (as it can be). Until there's a parser that can sift out Ruse and give credit to the appropriate Brigand in the group we'll really not know but speculate as I have.

All I know is that as an assassin - currently lvl 28 - I rip out an incredible amount of damage so much so that I can watch the health bar directly affected by me holding off my standard 3 to 4 seconds before engagement and starting. I have no problem sharing this honor in being DPS with another scout class (I'd say Brigand is really the only comparison).

I'd say that given my experience with grouping with Rangers, Swashbucklers, Bards, Brigands, and other Assassins that a Brigand and Assassin are your two really heavy scout dps hitters, while Ranger (might be close to equal in a situation they can bow up) comes close but not equal. I've also noticed that in indoor zones areas or areas with a ton of roamers where a ranger can't back up safely, even 5 feet, to use their bow their heavy hits go down. and this is noticable in the spam. Assassin's not being dented in dps by this is where we shine given that we're only limited to the back and we can get inside the mob if needed to do our nasties. Now granted having the ability to use a bow special for assassins here and there is nice and that's icing on the cake, but the time it takes me to back up 5 feet and start the special (wait) and re-face to back engage the mob with my blades again I'd of ended up doing as much as if I'd stayed in blade combat and not bowed up so it's a wash. Swash's do some great dps but not on the level of on assassin. It's just what I've noticed with comparable level swash's I've grouped with. Could they have been conservative sure but if that's they're average play style then I'm comparing my average play style on a regular basis because I by no means was going Mid-Evil on the mob dishing out everything as fast as I could. These statements are just from common sense and personal experience. Of course this is with all things other than class abilities being as equal as they could be without a scientific experiment going with a control/samples/parsers/perfectly equal level/equipment/sex/race/mobs/etc. I don't need a parser to tell me this I can visibly see it when I group. (People of course will not see any validity in this paragraph but that's ok) It's funny because even if I was virtually able to setup a in game study with all those factors mentioned accommodated someone would still give flak as to this wasn't done or this isn't valid. It's just the nature of the beast.

By the way I'd be interested in our ballpark dps against wizards/warlocks/conjurers - my thinking is on a single mob we'd be higher but overall dps for links we'd be way back. Wizards/Warlocks/conjurers get some pretty hefty AoE's. You can't deny that when you fought links with one of these classes that when you flipped to the next mob the tank has engaged and seen that mobs health down to 50 or less that you weren't thinking "Son of a xxxxx" that's some damage there that casters spit out.

Edits: to correct spelling and grammer. :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:04 AM

Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:11 AM

Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:13 AM

Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:24 AM

JynnSilverst · 01-01-2005, 09:23 AM

"First of all did you tell your groupmembers that you were parsing? If not you can throw the entire log information out the window for obvious reasons."

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. It's like racing someone who doesn't know you're racing lol.

Pull up to the stop light, rev your engine, guy isn't paying attention. You take off and smoke him... because he's only doing 30 mph and doesn't care. "Oooh, did you see that? My Kia smoked his 2005 Corvette!"

Yeah right.

UpurBloodst · 01-01-2005, 09:44 AM

Read my posts.

Evyn · 01-02-2005, 12:54 PM

Not to derail this thread, but HI UPUR FROGLICKER /lick

That is all, you may continue

Dimidri · 01-02-2005, 02:49 PM

This was already mentioned, but a Rogue's Ruse does a very large amount of damage (over 1000 at higher levels) but it's on a much shorter timer than your uuhhh.... I forgot but you 5 minute timer skill. Anyway, there's something weird about Ruse damage, that is that it wouldn't show up on the parser. The damage doesn't show up like every other skill in the game. You forgot to take that into account. And for those who know how Ruse works (we look like we just fall but then the mob takes a large amount of damage yet we take a while to recover) the recovery time isnt an issue, just use /sit and you can skip it.

Even with that, as a Brigand, I'm pretty sure Assassins have slightly higher DPS. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair. We have slightly more utility skills than Assassins, whereas Assassins are more focused on damage. Makes sense.

I never believed that whole thing about "Wow Assassins have to wait 3 yrs to do there skillz agin lol" deal. It's not true, just party with an Assassin sometime.

Also, I'm not sure how many debuffs and stuff that Assassins have but Swashbucklers and Brigands have a nice variety. Sometimes weakening the mob and increasing party effectiveness is just as important as doing the damage, but I am also aware that Assassins DO have these types of skills also. Maybe you decided not to use them as much while parsing the damage because you wanted to make sure to top the Rogues (subconsciously of course SMILEY

)?

Anyway, I'm glad you are spreading the word that Assassins are not about burst damage, downtime, and more burst, etc. I don't know where that came from really.

What I'm worried about is why that Swashbuckler got such low DPS compared to the Brigand. It could be that Swashbucklers have a lot more "debuff" type skills that benefit the party more than their individual damage (Swashbucklers have interesting skills but I don't remember them).

12-28-2004, 02:49 PM	#4
Derg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	A level 43 swashbuckler here and i think you guys are dreaming a little bit. First of all did you tell your groupmembers that you were parsing? If not you can throw the entire log information out the window for obvious reasons. I have been parsing with a lvl 43 assasin (both same gear FBSS, SBD,Bloody sabre) and our dmg is very alike. I do a little bit more dmg on fight where he didnt use the 5 min skill he does more on the fight where he used it and it all equals out in the end. Now what you should be concerned about is that tank classes like the berserker are doing 80-90% of our DPS which is imho totally rediculous for a tank class. A lvl 40 berserker was doing 3200 a fight while i was doing 4800 and thats with a 3 lvl difference and he didnt have FBSS... __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------- It is said that the civilized man seeks out good and intelligent company, so that by learned discourse, he may rise above the savage, and be closer to God. Personally, however, I like to start the day with a total [Removed for Content] to remind me that I'm best.

12-28-2004, 02:58 PM	#5
Respox Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 25	Yeah, assassins and swashbucklers are about the same DPS. We had some fights where our damage was only 20 or so away, then a few where i had a few hundred more, others where he had a few hundred more ect. It all evens out in the end to be about the same dps there really is no difference in the dps of swash and assassin we parsed for an hour or 2 straight and got the same results. __________________ Innk 92 Berserker - Antonia Bayle

12-29-2004, 12:10 AM	#7
Elv Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 100	" did they use poison ? " Guess you didnt fully read the intial post, and just skipped to the part where you become a troll. Assassins - Teh Win~ __________________

12-29-2004, 03:06 AM	#8
Ra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	UpurBloodstab wrote: Now, with myself, the Assassin of course, the averages were a bit more interesting. As I expected, I was able to keep my DPS much higher both the Swashbuckler and the Brigand even on fights without using the 5 minute recharge "extreme damage" skill. Without using this skill, I consistantly did anywhere from 75 up to 100 DPS per fight. When I did use Assassin's blade in a fight, which happened about every 4 fights, the extra 700-1300 damage boosted my DPS for that fight to anywhere from 100 to 150. Basically, the idea that Assassin's do damage in spikes is a myth. They do consistant damage greater than or equal to that of the other scouts, or at least Brigand and Swashbucklers. However, they do have one (two, if your counting Assassinate) "spike-damage" abilities. While Damage over Time is important to factor in overall balance, Damage per mob is relevant and practical to gauge. Your two "spike-damage" abilities raised your DPS up to 50 above the other fights. If that isn't a spike, I don't know what is... What defines the spike is when you consider your sub-class counterpart - Ranger. Rogue sub-classes are balanced differently because they offer more utility to a group. Rangers are Assassin's direct mirror sub-class. Comparing what you just did is like comparing a Wizard's DPS to a Conjuror's. Assassin's DPS is on a 5 minute cycle. Rangers DPS is on a 1 minute cycle. Assassin's need that spike damage to balance their Damage over Time. As a Ranger, I can use every damage CA every fight. In respect, Assassin's can use all their skills once every 4-5 mobs. Of course the rest of your damage in the 5 minutes will outpace the uber damage Assassin's Blade ( ^ Condemning Blade), but the spike recieved from that skill balanced Damage over Time. Hence, said description. Message Edited by Ravi on 12-28-2004 02:16 PM __________________ "Chicken (out of breath)... gave me a bad coupon.." Ravi Talonroot Ranger 38 / Artisan 3 Everfrost

12-29-2004, 06:46 AM	#10
Respox Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 25	dont post if you dont know what you're talking about. assassins get big hits that are 1min reuse also. 2 of them infact then a bunch of 10-20sec recast skills, and a pretty high dmg 30sec reuse bow skill. I parsed a rangers dps he was doing 1-2k per fight LESS then me. he was 3 lvls lower but 3 lvls wont add another 1-2k. Message Edited by Respox on 12-28-2004 08:47 PM __________________ Innk 92 Berserker - Antonia Bayle

12-26-2004, 10:39 AM	#1
UpurBloodst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	I've been reading some boards lately, and I've read many times that Assassins are the spike-based damage dealers, while Brigands, Swashies, and Ranger do consistant damage. So far, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever to support this as a level 36 Assassin. The only skill that would ever seem to perpetuate this myth is Assassin's Blade, and it's upgrade, Condemning Blade. These skills are both on a 5 minute timer, and will generally put any other melee hit to shame. While these skills are nice, they are only a nice addition to our main DPS skills such as Shadow Blade and it's upgrade(s), Poisoner's Blade and it's upgrade(s), Impale and it's upgrade(s), Shrouded Strike and it's upgrade(s), Bleed and it's upgrade(s), Pierce and it's upgrade(s), and of course, Sneak Attack. All of these skills listed recharge quickly (with the possible exception of the Shadow Blade line) and do fairly nice and consistant damage. These skills are where the super majority of the Assassin's damage comes from, not the 5 minute recharge on the Assassin's Blade line. I've always known that the Assassin class wasn't a member of the spike-based damage paradigm for some time now, but since I enjoy trying to prove myself wrong, I downloaded the very handy parser at www.thescoutssanctuary.com. Btw, thanks a bunch for that tool and the website Khalysta. Anyways, the results were essentially what I had expected. I grouped with both a Swashbuckler and a Brigand for about 3 hours, and kept track of the damage being done by each of us. The Assassin(myself) was level 36, the Swashbuckler was level 37, and the Brigand was level 36. Their gear and stats were fairly updated, just as mine were. They all were active in the group, and I didn't consider their DPS totals if they joined the fight late, were AFK for a portion of the fight, or if there was anything I could notice that would possibly alter the results. As far as I know, they both know how to play their classes with a decent level of efficiency. We were killing Blight Rats in Rivervale for the entire time, and these numbers are only from fights with Blight Rats. They both reported that they have most Adept 1's for their skills, and each had a couple Adept 3's. I had Adept 1 for pretty much all of my skills, and no Adept 2's, 3's, or Masters. I gave them all a tier 3 poison to keep on their weapons, so that wouldn't be a factor. The Swashbuckler generally averaged around 60 DPS per fight. Occasionally, he would do some 70 DPS fights, but he also had a few 45-50 DPS fights. The Brigand did seem to have a bit higher DPS than the Swashbuckler, as I expected. He averaged around 70 DPS, with a few lower DPS and higher DPS. Overall, both the Brigand and the Swashbuckler were very steady in their damage dealing. Now, with myself, the Assassin of course, the averages were a bit more interesting. As I expected, I was able to keep my DPS much higher both the Swashbuckler and the Brigand even on fights without using the 5 minute recharge "extreme damage" skill. Without using this skill, I consistantly did anywhere from 75 up to 100 DPS per fight. When I did use Assassin's blade in a fight, which happened about every 4 fights, the extra 700-1300 damage boosted my DPS for that fight to anywhere from 100 to 150. Basically, the idea that Assassin's do damage in spikes is a myth. They do consistant damage greater than or equal to that of the other scouts, or at least Brigand and Swashbucklers. However, they do have one (two, if your counting Assassinate) "spike-damage" abilities. However, that does not, by any means, make Assassins "better" than the other rogue classes. Assassin have almost no utility in comparison with Swashbucklers and Brigands, as you know. Assassins, as far as I know playing up to level 36, are essentially pure damage dealing machines. I, personally, don't like to think of them not having utility, however. It depends how you define utility, really. I see the Assassin's utility as being able to do an instant, and very extreme attack every 5 minutes to finish off or freatly weaken a mob. Their utility is being able to kill, which is very defining for an Assassin. Why did the myth that Assassin's are only spike-damage, and other scouts are consistant damage start, anyways? Personally, I think it is mainly because people are obsessed with seperating each of the classes. They want their class to be different from another class, and they want other classes to be different from theirs. It is very boring to simply define Brigands, Swashbucklers, Assassins, Rangers as just nice DD's. Some people want to diversify their abilities in order to create an illusion of uniqueness, even though there is very little evidence to support that uniqueness.

12-26-2004, 11:00 AM	#2
khalysta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 490	The myth started in beta. We didnt get shrouded strike until the end. So we were essentially shadowblade to start then use stalk mid fight with poisoners. Now we have shrouded strike/poisoners blade as a powerful combo and you can't ignore insidious cut/impale for its damage either. So much of the pre-release info said we were very burst oriented though so its going to be hard to overcome especially with some very high spikes still existing its just that those are actually a small part of our damage compared to the overall which people dont realize. the 300s and 800+ from ebon blade and assassin's blade are the ones they really notice while the constant 150s they seem to ignore. So let them think that so we don't get nerfed

12-27-2004, 05:57 AM	#3
Mack Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 31	Ive used stat programs for some time now and assassins are always highest in dps, they have highest dps on all mobs and the spike attacks do a extra dmg burst. We are a pure dps class with nothing to give the group, rouges have a bit lower dps but some other skills that help them in other ways we cant. Under assassin ive seen some sorcerers/summoners and brawlers come about equal with rogues and sometimes a bit higher. On ae wiz is without a doubt the best dpser. Im 37now so had a few lvls to compare my dps info with other classes.

12-28-2004, 07:40 PM	#6
spydder General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	This thread hold little to no water. As the above poster mentioned did you tell them you were parcing?did you use poison? were you hasted, buffed? did they use poison? were you using like weapons? i would like to see that log also and post the real results on the boards, feel free to PM it to me.

12-29-2004, 04:11 AM	#9
UpurBloodst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	"Assassin's DPS is on a 5 minute cycle. Rangers DPS is on a 1 minute cycle. Assassin's need that spike damage to balance their Damage over Time." That's exactly what my parse logs have proven wrong. Did you even read my post? :smileytongue: Yes - I did tell them I was parsing. No, I don't know if they did everything they could to do the most damage possible or didn't. There really isn't a way for me to know that. As far as poison and weapons go...read my post... What I got from these logs is that, as I expected, Assassin's consistant and steady DPS without our spike damage ability is higher than either of the two rogue classes' total consistant DPS. If played correctly, we don't even need to use our single spike-damage skill to "catch-up" to either rogues' DPS values. That's just an added bonus to embarass the rogues every 5 minutes. :smileywink: If you think any of my numbers are off - feel free to bring any level 37-39 rogue character to the Guk server and we'll compare our DPS. I'm very confident we won't see results any less similar than what I've posted. Make sure you have the parse program too, so you can't claim that I've been making the numbers up. Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-28-2004 03:13 PM

12-29-2004, 07:04 PM	#11
Ra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	UpurBloodstab wrote: "Assassin's DPS is on a 5 minute cycle. Rangers DPS is on a 1 minute cycle. Assassin's need that spike damage to balance their Damage over Time." That's exactly what my parse logs have proven wrong. Did you even read my post? :smileytongue: I need to ask - did you read mine? Or just what you quoted? Yes - I did tell them I was parsing. No, I don't know if they did everything they could to do the most damage possible or didn't. There really isn't a way for me to know that. As far as poison and weapons go...read my post... What I got from these logs is that, as I expected, Assassin's consistant and steady DPS without our spike damage ability is higher than either of the two rogue classes' total consistant DPS. If played correctly, we don't even need to use our single spike-damage skill to "catch-up" to either rogues' DPS values. That's just an added bonus to embarass the rogues every 5 minutes. :smileywink: Again.. since you didn't read my post... Steady DPS is why for one fight, your DPS is spiked by 50? If you think any of my numbers are off - feel free to bring any level 37-39 rogue character to the Guk server and we'll compare our DPS. I'm very confident we won't see results any less similar than what I've posted. Make sure you have the parse program too, so you can't claim that I've been making the numbers up. Again, read my post - you have effectively compared a Wizard to a Conjuror and are passing it off as a fair comparison. And furthermore, are claiming that steady DPS means that you are consistently doing more damage than a class that is balanced by different means. Great... happy for you.. I think I can do more damage than a bard. Maybe I will parse that. Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-28-2004 03:13 PM __________________ "Chicken (out of breath)... gave me a bad coupon.." Ravi Talonroot Ranger 38 / Artisan 3 Everfrost

12-29-2004, 07:17 PM	#12
Ra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	Respox wrote: dont post if you dont know what you're talking about. assassins get big hits that are 1min reuse also. 2 of them infact then a bunch of 10-20sec recast skills, and a pretty high dmg 30sec reuse bow skill. I parsed a rangers dps he was doing 1-2k per fight LESS then me. he was 3 lvls lower but 3 lvls wont add another 1-2k. Message Edited by Respox on 12-28-2004 08:47 PM So do Rangers. Since I must explain it to you... Assassin's damage cycle is 5 minutes BECAUSE they have a high damage ability that adds a considerable amount of DPS on a 5 minute timer. That means when parsing, comparing an Assassin's DPS to a Rogue's or Ranger's DPS that is UNDER a 5 minute period will give skewed results. First off, the funny thing about Rangers is there is a lot of non-combat quirks to do to increase DPS. For instance, where you buy your arrows makes a huge difference. Arrows purchased from a Bowyer/Fletcher do almost twice the damage as arrows bought from a merchant. The arrow you use makes a huge difference because you can buy either slashing or piercing. And GG SOE for not labeling or marking the difference. LOL 3 levels lower?? I need to ask.. what level are you and what was he? And do I need to remind you that Level > * in this game. Meaning, a group of 30s is twice as good as a group of 25s when fighting the same mob. /rofl Message Edited by Ravi on 12-29-2004 06:55 AM __________________ "Chicken (out of breath)... gave me a bad coupon.." Ravi Talonroot Ranger 38 / Artisan 3 Everfrost

12-30-2004, 12:11 AM	#13
Fera Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1	Wonderful post, I have also always suspected that assasins had more dps, even without condemned blade. You should never expect an assasin to stay low because his cooldown just started, we have a huge arsenal of skills that can shine and do some good damage. I have also always wondered how you check the dps of the party? I have asked around in the game and nobody knows, It would be great if you could help me with this. Cheers. Btw, is it possible to change my username on the forums? My brother registered and he did not use an appropriate name.

12-30-2004, 12:14 AM	#14
UpurBloodst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across, but I think you think I included the 5 minute damage spike into ALL of my DPS "reports". I'm saying that even without using that skill, I can still outdamage both the rogue classes with my other abilities easily and on a regular basis. Hence, I don't need any damage spike from that skill at all to "catch-up" to rogue DPS. Also, what is wrong with comparing DPS between a conjuror and a wizard? If one does more damage than the other, then one does more damage than the other. There isn't really anything to it. This isn't a topic about "overall net usefullness", this is a topic about DPS and how capable each class is of producing it. Sure, each class in the game can do their damage in different ways, but DPS is an easily calculated variable that we can measure. Damage is damage is damage is damage. Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-29-2004 11:19 AM

12-30-2004, 12:18 AM	#15
m Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 66	The other rogues classes (except for ranger) are not pure dps so the comparison is asanine. The same is true for a comparison between wizards and conjurors. Conjurors are not pure dps, so saying a wizard or assassin does better dps is like almost as trivial as saying an assassin does better dps than a templar. __________________ Minamar Darkflame 31st Season Wizard, Oasis Officer of The Lost

12-30-2004, 12:39 AM	#16
UpurBloodst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	Glad to see someone understands of of the main points of the post. Now I'm waiting to find a Wizard and compare DPS there. Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-29-2004 11:41 AM

12-30-2004, 12:43 AM	#17
Ra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	UpurBloodstab wrote: I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across, but I think you think I included the 5 minute damage spike into ALL of my DPS "reports". You didn't and that's great (I was explaining that part to the other guy). But you are comparing 2 different subclasses and claiming that a spike doesn't exist because you flatten the Brigand in all attempts - even though your damage spikes for the fight you use your 5 minute ability. A Brigand is balanced differently because it offers more Utility to a group. If you didn't do more damage than a Brigand, you wouldn't ever get an invite because of what he offers in terms of Utility. I'm saying that even without using that skill, I can still outdamage both the rogue classes with my other abilities easily and on a regular basis. Hence, I don't need any damage spike from that skill at all to "catch-up" to rogue DPS. Ok, but it's kind of moot IMO. because of the reason above. Also, what is wrong with comparing DPS between a conjuror and a wizard? If one does more damage than the other, then one does more damage than the other. There isn't really anything to it. This isn't a topic about "overall net usefullness", this is a topic about DPS and how capable each class is of producing it. Sure, each class in the game can do their damage in different ways, but DPS is an easily calculated variable that we can measure. What is wrong is SOE has balanced the classes differently so they bring advantages to the group in different instances. So any parse attempt will provide skewed favortism toward whatever class/subclass can perform better in said situation. It's bad enough to compare an Assassin to a Ranger - which are both in the same class. But comparing a Brigand to an Assassin is like comparing an apple to an orange. Sure they are fruit but they taste completely different. Damage is damage is damage is damage. Wrong. Classes aren't balanced on X. They are balanced on X and Y and Z. Message Edited by UpurBloodstab on 12-29-2004 11:19 AM Message Edited by Ravi on 12-29-2004 12:57 PM __________________ "Chicken (out of breath)... gave me a bad coupon.." Ravi Talonroot Ranger 38 / Artisan 3 Everfrost

12-30-2004, 01:51 AM	#18
Shidip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	Wow...you guys are amazing... Let me try and help out. Upur's post is trying to discount the "Myth" that Assassins are a burst DPS class...meaning that out of all the DPS class, Assassins "make-up" DPS through the 5 min timed attack. (Not everyone believes this, but some do) This takes into account all normally thought of DPS classes ( Rogues, Predators, Mages, etc) YES...that still means we are a burst DPS class, but that burst lets us out-damage other DPS classes, not compensate. What he is trying to show is that our DPS is comparable with other "DPS" classes without the 5 min attack. Ravi is saying that you shouldn't compare Assassins to other DPS classes, because those other classes are intended to do less DPS and make up for it with "utilities". That is fine, but Upur's post is about disproving teh "Myth" that all DPS classes are the same and that Assassins need to "burst" in order to keep up with the other DPS classes. Obviously you don't believe the Myth, Ravi, so you are in agreement with Upur. So...actually I think you guys are BOTH agreeing that Assassins are compareable to other DPS class. However, Assassins get the Utility of a high damage attack while the other DPS classes get other "Utilities" I hope that makes sense and we can all get along now... Message Edited by Shidipoo on 12-29-2004 12:53 PM __________________ Shidisu Aei Desis (GUK)

12-30-2004, 02:07 AM	#19
m Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 66	At lvl 28 I cycle through 3x(~30)/tick + 400 + 160 + 110 +160 every 15 seconds or so. That's assuming the DoTs are already applied and that I don't have to convert mana. So a conservative estimate, I get about 65dps. I usually only fight in groups on yellow ^ or better mobs, so that gives you an idea of where wizards stand. Message Edited by mjw on 12-29-2004 04:09 PM __________________ Minamar Darkflame 31st Season Wizard, Oasis Officer of The Lost

12-30-2004, 02:37 AM	#20
Ra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	Shidipoo wrote: Wow...you guys are amazing... Let me try and help out. Upur's post is trying to discount the "Myth" that Assassins are a burst DPS class...meaning that out of all the DPS class, Assassins "make-up" DPS through the 5 min timed attack. (Not everyone believes this, but some do) This takes into account all normally thought of DPS classes ( Rogues, Predators, Mages, etc) YES...that still means we are a burst DPS class, but that burst lets us out-damage other DPS classes, not compensate. What he is trying to show is that our DPS is comparable with other "DPS" classes without the 5 min attack. Ravi is saying that you shouldn't compare Assassins to other DPS classes, because those other classes are intended to do less DPS and make up for it with "utilities". That is fine, but Upur's post is about disproving teh "Myth" that all DPS classes are the same and that Assassins need to "burst" in order to keep up with the other DPS classes. Obviously you don't believe the Myth, Ravi, so you are in agreement with Upur. So...actually I think you guys are BOTH agreeing that Assassins are compareable to other DPS class. However, Assassins get the Utility of a high damage attack while the other DPS classes get other "Utilities" I hope that makes sense and we can all get along now... Message Edited by Shidipoo on 12-29-2004 12:53 PM All I am saying is Brigand is from the Rogue Class. And Assassin is from the Predator class. Each class is balanced in different ways Predator Damage - A Utility - D Rogue Damage - B Utility - C Bard Damage - D Utility - A These are arbitrary of course, but saying that a Predator class beats a Rogue class in DPS.. well I say "Duh?" I'm not agreeing that Assassin's are comparable to other DPS classes. Because they aren't. What they should be comparable to is a Ranger because they are both from the Predator class and each offer about the same things. Although it is good to know that a Predator class does indeed outdamage a Rogue class. Because if they didn't, Predator classes would have a hard time selling themselves to a group. Another way to look at this is - when parsing against a Ranger, maybe the "spike damage" will become more apparent because we should pretty much run neck and neck throughout a 5 minute parse. That 2000 damage 5 minute ability would add 6 to Damage over Time of 5 minutes. That is a considerable amount from a single skill. __________________ "Chicken (out of breath)... gave me a bad coupon.." Ravi Talonroot Ranger 38 / Artisan 3 Everfrost

12-30-2004, 05:35 AM	#21
UpurBloodst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	" But comparing a Brigand to an Assassin is like comparing an apple to an orange. Sure they are fruit but they taste completely different." Comparing the two classes as a whole is definately akin to comparing apples and oranges. However, comparing how much damage they can put out is just like comparing an apple to an apple. One of the apples is going to weigh more than the other. Looking forward to testing my DPS against a Wizard. I have a feeling I won't stand a chance against Wizard AoE abilities.

12-30-2004, 08:34 PM	#22
Ra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	UpurBloodstab wrote: " But comparing a Brigand to an Assassin is like comparing an apple to an orange. Sure they are fruit but they taste completely different." Comparing the two classes as a whole is definately akin to comparing apples and oranges. However, comparing how much damage they can put out is just like comparing an apple to an apple. One of the apples is going to weigh more than the other. Looking forward to testing my DPS against a Wizard. I have a feeling I won't stand a chance against Wizard AoE abilities. I guess I'm just arguing the myth and not you. Even though it's hard to fathom that this is even a myth in the first place... Hook up a parse with a Ranger when you can. I am anxious to see one. Message Edited by Ravi on 12-30-2004 07:40 AM Message Edited by Ravi on 12-30-2004 07:42 AM __________________ "Chicken (out of breath)... gave me a bad coupon.." Ravi Talonroot Ranger 38 / Artisan 3 Everfrost

12-31-2004, 05:09 AM	#23
Respox Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 25	rangers are horrible dps i try my best not to group with them, i asked a ranger to go max dps he could on a mob he was 40 i was 43 and he still did about 1-2k LESS then me per fight without me using Condemning blade. Most of my skills are app 2 some adept 1 but nothing special mostly just 1 dot and a green bow shot. Rangers get left behind in dps if you ask me. He said it was because i had SBD and FBSS while he had 2 dif weaps and no fbss, i looked at piercing dmg and he only did 50 less then me with piercing damage because we were mostly just using skills anyways. __________________ Innk 92 Berserker - Antonia Bayle

12-31-2004, 03:05 PM	#24
Nagora Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	Did you take into account the damage done by Ruse for the Brigand? It is not listed as their damage. It hits for 300-500 damage around level 20, on a one minute timer. It's damage is just slightly less than our 5 minute refresh attack, but it comes back every minute. I hate to say it, but I have a hard time believing we as Assassins outdamage Brigands once you take into account the damage of Ruse. Message Edited by Nagorak3 on 12-31-2004 02:11 AM

12-31-2004, 07:29 PM	#25
Elv Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 100	Currently Lv33, Skills I use in battle along with there timers and effects Assassins Blade : 900 - 1100 dmg : 5min timer Ebon Blade : 350 - 550 dmg : 1 min timer ( Peircing debuff ) Cloaked Barb : 200 - 400 dmg : 1min timer Cut throat : 150 - 275 dmg : 1min timer ( Silence's the mob ) Then the skills that have a timer of 30sec or less Exposed Atk : 100 - 175 dmg ( debuff, increases assassins dmg ) Poisoners Blade: 150 - 250 dmg ( Poison debuff ) Cut : 75 - 125 dmg ( intial hit plus DoT ) Insidious Cut : 100 - 125 dmg ( slashing debuff ) Agonizing wound : 35 - 50 dmg ( double hit with DoT ) Deadly shot : 100 - 150 dmg ( Doublt shot * two arrows ) Sneak Atk : 50 - 90 dmg ( N00b skill, but quick timer ) * then the self haste buff / AGI ( bleeders talent ) to boot. ** Also I use Caustic Goo 150 skill Poison, 83 Proc dmg then 53 a tick DoT This is about all I can remember off the top of my head, currently at work... But gives you and idea of our abilities. When it comes to dealing out dmg. __________________

12-31-2004, 11:56 PM	#26
cprochal Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 15	Nagorak3 wrote: Did you take into account the damage done by Ruse for the Brigand? It is not listed as their damage. It hits for 300-500 damage around level 20, on a one minute timer. It's damage is just slightly less than our 5 minute refresh attack, but it comes back every minute. I hate to say it, but I have a hard time believing we as Assassins outdamage Brigands once you take into account the damage of Ruse. Message Edited by Nagorak3 on 12-31-2004 02:11 AM Regarding the topic: I finally glad someone wrote this to dispell the misunderstanding that we are all burst dmg. I see in other scout forums that capitalized on our assassin's blade so much in explaining our subclass. I often see forums refering to many of our abilities being on 5 min timers with blanket statements such as - Assassins are burst damage and have to wait 5 minutes on their timers before doing their heavy hits again. It frustrates me to see statements like that given that as explained much of our high dps hits are on 1 min timers or less. The assassin's blade/Condeming blade is just an icing on the cake special we have (but definitely not class defining). Regarding the quote: I also see that someone mentioned what I was going to mention about Brigands and Ruse. I believe Ruse will NOT show up on dmg parsers because the credit does not go to the Brigand doing the FD hit but to the group. This can add up and from what I understand it's a 60 sec timer with big hits. This is often forgotten in forums as well when scout subclasses compare Brigands to other scout classes. You can't ignore this special Brigands have it's pretty hefty. Having said that, I don't know if I agree with the quoted poster about Brigands out damaging us because of that but I'd say if anything it's darn close if not equal (as it can be). Until there's a parser that can sift out Ruse and give credit to the appropriate Brigand in the group we'll really not know but speculate as I have. All I know is that as an assassin - currently lvl 28 - I rip out an incredible amount of damage so much so that I can watch the health bar directly affected by me holding off my standard 3 to 4 seconds before engagement and starting. I have no problem sharing this honor in being DPS with another scout class (I'd say Brigand is really the only comparison). I'd say that given my experience with grouping with Rangers, Swashbucklers, Bards, Brigands, and other Assassins that a Brigand and Assassin are your two really heavy scout dps hitters, while Ranger (might be close to equal in a situation they can bow up) comes close but not equal. I've also noticed that in indoor zones areas or areas with a ton of roamers where a ranger can't back up safely, even 5 feet, to use their bow their heavy hits go down. and this is noticable in the spam. Assassin's not being dented in dps by this is where we shine given that we're only limited to the back and we can get inside the mob if needed to do our nasties. Now granted having the ability to use a bow special for assassins here and there is nice and that's icing on the cake, but the time it takes me to back up 5 feet and start the special (wait) and re-face to back engage the mob with my blades again I'd of ended up doing as much as if I'd stayed in blade combat and not bowed up so it's a wash. Swash's do some great dps but not on the level of on assassin. It's just what I've noticed with comparable level swash's I've grouped with. Could they have been conservative sure but if that's they're average play style then I'm comparing my average play style on a regular basis because I by no means was going Mid-Evil on the mob dishing out everything as fast as I could. These statements are just from common sense and personal experience. Of course this is with all things other than class abilities being as equal as they could be without a scientific experiment going with a control/samples/parsers/perfectly equal level/equipment/sex/race/mobs/etc. I don't need a parser to tell me this I can visibly see it when I group. (People of course will not see any validity in this paragraph but that's ok) It's funny because even if I was virtually able to setup a in game study with all those factors mentioned accommodated someone would still give flak as to this wasn't done or this isn't valid. It's just the nature of the beast. By the way I'd be interested in our ballpark dps against wizards/warlocks/conjurers - my thinking is on a single mob we'd be higher but overall dps for links we'd be way back. Wizards/Warlocks/conjurers get some pretty hefty AoE's. You can't deny that when you fought links with one of these classes that when you flipped to the next mob the tank has engaged and seen that mobs health down to 50 or less that you weren't thinking "Son of a xxxxx" that's some damage there that casters spit out. Edits: to correct spelling and grammer. :smileyvery-happy: Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:04 AM Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:11 AM Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:13 AM Message Edited by cprochal on 12-31-2004 11:24 AM __________________ Voon, 59 Kerran Assassin of Antonia Bayle** Soulgin, 50 Dirge of Antonia Bayle Soulgen, 15 Coercer of Antonia Bayle**

01-01-2005, 09:23 AM	#27
JynnSilverst General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 8	"First of all did you tell your groupmembers that you were parsing? If not you can throw the entire log information out the window for obvious reasons." Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. It's like racing someone who doesn't know you're racing lol. Pull up to the stop light, rev your engine, guy isn't paying attention. You take off and smoke him... because he's only doing 30 mph and doesn't care. "Oooh, did you see that? My Kia smoked his 2005 Corvette!" Yeah right.

01-01-2005, 09:44 AM	#28
UpurBloodst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	Read my posts.

01-02-2005, 12:54 PM	#29
Evyn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 30	Not to derail this thread, but HI UPUR FROGLICKER /lick That is all, you may continue __________________ Kysera B'Dynn - Permafrost Brigand

01-02-2005, 02:49 PM	#30
Dimidri General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 89	This was already mentioned, but a Rogue's Ruse does a very large amount of damage (over 1000 at higher levels) but it's on a much shorter timer than your uuhhh.... I forgot but you 5 minute timer skill. Anyway, there's something weird about Ruse damage, that is that it wouldn't show up on the parser. The damage doesn't show up like every other skill in the game. You forgot to take that into account. And for those who know how Ruse works (we look like we just fall but then the mob takes a large amount of damage yet we take a while to recover) the recovery time isnt an issue, just use /sit and you can skip it. Even with that, as a Brigand, I'm pretty sure Assassins have slightly higher DPS. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair. We have slightly more utility skills than Assassins, whereas Assassins are more focused on damage. Makes sense. I never believed that whole thing about "Wow Assassins have to wait 3 yrs to do there skillz agin lol" deal. It's not true, just party with an Assassin sometime. Also, I'm not sure how many debuffs and stuff that Assassins have but Swashbucklers and Brigands have a nice variety. Sometimes weakening the mob and increasing party effectiveness is just as important as doing the damage, but I am also aware that Assassins DO have these types of skills also. Maybe you decided not to use them as much while parsing the damage because you wanted to make sure to top the Rogues (subconsciously of course )? Anyway, I'm glad you are spreading the word that Assassins are not about burst damage, downtime, and more burst, etc. I don't know where that came from really. What I'm worried about is why that Swashbuckler got such low DPS compared to the Brigand. It could be that Swashbucklers have a lot more "debuff" type skills that benefit the party more than their individual damage (Swashbucklers have interesting skills but I don't remember them).