Why Ranger DPS cant be fixed.... Yet.

TheStormrider · 01-03-2007, 10:04 PM

After a lot of deliberation, and arguing, and reading umpteen hundred threads about ranger dps, it finally dawned on me when and how it will be fixed, if I had to guess. Not that anyone really cares, but I was bored and thought id post it.

The basic issue is, with a godly bow, and T8 ammo, were great dps. Without were mediocre to good.

The problem is that if SoE nerfs the godly gear, and ammo, the raiding rangers are outraged. If they boost any other aspect of rangers, those rangers are overpowered, grossly.

Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged.

So if I had to guess, based on the fact that I have never read any posts by someone with a red name, comment on any of this, is that they are at a loss. Or they dont care. I choose to believe its the prior, not the latter, for my own sanity.

So the fix if I had to guess, would be in the next 10 level expansion. In which case, the new tier bows will be scaled back and the difference between a hard to get fabled, and a fairly common will be much less, there is no t9 ammo, and the next 10 levels of CA's will receive a boost there by bringing the class into a 'managable set of equations' to balance.

So, my challenge for this thread, is for people to come up with a better fix constructively. Hit all the angles, have both advantages and disadvantages to the class and the changes, while bringing it back in line.

Gareorn · 01-03-2007, 11:52 PM

TheStormrider wrote:

Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged.

I realize this statement is true, but it still boggles my mind as to why anyone would be outraged by someone else's success. Making good bows more accessable would probably solve the problem with the least amount of effort. It would be a shame if we found out that our problems are not being fixed because of some perceived self-centered mind set.

My input... Make the good bows available to more people and the problem will be real close to being solved. Fix the itemization before trying to fix anything else.

Gnome mercy · 01-04-2007, 12:24 AM

Gareorn wrote:

TheStormrider wrote:

Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged.

I realize this statement is true, but it still boggles my mind as to why anyone would be outraged by someone else's success. Making good bows more accessable would probably solve the problem with the least amount of effort. It would be a shame if we found out that our problems are not being fixed because of some perceived self-centered mind set.

My input... Make the good bows available to more people and the problem will be real close to being solved. Fix the itemization before trying to fix anything else.

It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work, its different to say yeah i killed a level 100 epic x4 mob for this bow that it is to say yeah i killed a level 100 +3 mob for this bow. Its just that big of a difference. Honestly I don't mind the bows being a challenge to get, challenges spark me. Just think of it when you finally get to the point where you can get a sarnak warbow or whatever bow you got your eye on you finally get it after years of triumphing when a noob walks up with 1 saying yeah i just bought this from the baz because people are farming them they are so easy to get.

Gotta look at both sides of the playing field here, sure it will be easier, but people complain

Prandtl · 01-04-2007, 12:29 AM

Gnome mercy wrote:

It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work, its different to say yeah i killed a level 100 epic x4 mob for this bow that it is to say yeah i killed a level 100 +3 mob for this bow. Its just that big of a difference. Honestly I don't mind the bows being a challenge to get, challenges spark me. Just think of it when you finally get to the point where you can get a sarnak warbow or whatever bow you got your eye on you finally get it after years of triumphing when a noob walks up with 1 saying yeah i just bought this from the baz because people are farming them they are so easy to get.

Gotta look at both sides of the playing field here, sure it will be easier, but people complain

Don't get me wrong. The challege of getting these bow spark me as well.

But the challenge kind of wears thin after your guild has dropped Tarinax for the umpteenth time and that ^%#%^& bow still hasn't dropped. Thats when it changes from challenging to grinding.

VisualFoundry · 01-04-2007, 12:52 AM

Gnome mercy wrote:

It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work...

I have to agree with you here, and being one of the rangers who does not currently have a 100+ DR bow, I have to say that I still somewhat enjoy the thrill of the hunt for one. But keep in mind that SOE has a pretty solid track record of throwing away people's hard work for them. Remember the tradeskill changes that were made in DoF? I spent two weeks crafting for more hours per day than I feel comfortable admitting so that I would be the first 60 weaponsmith on Neriak. Ten or so days later, SOE changes crafting xp and by the end of that week (four days after xp changes) there are eight 60 weaponsmiths on our server who had been 52 or below before the xp changes. I realize that this doesn't pertain directly to rangers, but I bring it up purely as an example of how little SOE cares for the amount of work we put into this game.

Message Edited by VisualFoundry on 01-03-2007 11:53 AM

Xenon Crimson · 01-04-2007, 02:28 AM

"The basic issue is, with a godly bow, and T8 ammo, were great dps. Without were mediocre to good. " - i have to disagree to prove a point to a ranger who doesnt have the ammo I used a legendary bow and crafted arrows - I still parsed in the top 5 (others being necro, assasin, brigs).

Dark_Moons_Rising · 01-04-2007, 03:06 AM

:smileysad: Well, dont hold your breath waiting for us to get fixed, It wont happen. You, as well as MOST of the rangers on in this forum know were broken. Our dps HAS in fact been lowered, our ca casting timers raised, mobs made faster and backpeddling slowed down. Our stuns have had their duration lowered. This was done for the reason of someone's idea of class balance.

I do raid quite frequently, and am mostly using fabled and legendary, with All my spells either master or adept 3's, before EoF came out, i was always in the top 4 of the raid parse. Now, raiding, im lucky to EVEN make the parse ( no my play style has not changed). They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ".

pseudocide · 01-04-2007, 03:25 AM

the solution is giving woodworkers arrows that can compete with t8 summoned ammo (and double the amount of arrows given by 1 combine)

Gareorn · 01-04-2007, 04:26 AM

Prandtl wrote:

Gnome mercy wrote:

It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work, its different to say yeah i killed a level 100 epic x4 mob for this bow that it is to say yeah i killed a level 100 +3 mob for this bow. Its just that big of a difference. Honestly I don't mind the bows being a challenge to get, challenges spark me. Just think of it when you finally get to the point where you can get a sarnak warbow or whatever bow you got your eye on you finally get it after years of triumphing when a noob walks up with 1 saying yeah i just bought this from the baz because people are farming them they are so easy to get.

Gotta look at both sides of the playing field here, sure it will be easier, but people complain

Don't get me wrong. The challege of getting these bow spark me as well.

But the challenge kind of wears thin after your guild has dropped Tarinax for the umpteenth time and that ^%#%^& bow still hasn't dropped. Thats when it changes from challenging to grinding.

And I'd like to add, that many of those who would be outraged by fixing the itemization are the same people who said jack about nerfing drops in T7 raid zones, after outfitting their entire guild in relic in under a weeks worth of time. I'd bet good money that the outrage would be more a issue of being "king of the hill" than personal accomplishment.

Edit: Almost forgot to keep the thread on topic... I still think fixing itemization is the way to go. It doesn't make any sense to leave something broke only because a few people might have some self-esteem issues. I have two dual weild weapons whose combined DR is over 112 and both those weapons dropped in Lab. Is it really too much to ask to do the same thing for ranged weapons? I've also seen a couple of awesome 2H slash weapons drop there, including Gaundralek, Sword of the Sky (DR 101.4).

Message Edited by Gareorn on 01-03-2007 03:49 PM

Nulad · 01-04-2007, 04:40 AM

So because of the few the many must suffer.Dayam, OP does make a lot of sense though.

Merkad · 01-04-2007, 06:42 AM

I have had my Bazkul for about a month, I got my Sarnak bow last night. All I can say is that I hope others don't have to wait as long as I did to get them. I mostly agree with the OP, Rangers are unique in the way we operate, and balancing between the haves and have nots is tough. Most likely, the only real answer is to implement more bows to lessen the gap for the non raiders/unluckies. Perhaps even have these other bows drop t7 or even t8 ammo (just for another source of t8 ammo, and one more casual folks can have a chance at) just to help alleviate ammo issues.EoF has been kind to my guild, in an odd way. Since EoF came out, our horrid luck with KoS is finally dissapearing, we got our second bazkul (mine) our first Sarnak bow (again mine) and our first Ichor filled Thorax, just waiting on that hover platform now SMILEY

(not me for, I hate any and all mounts). But that is all rng issues I think, and it certainly does not help people not able to do those areas.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

Starwindz · 01-04-2007, 07:41 AM

Merkades, i heard from soliloquy last nite that you got your sarnak grats man. How much of a dps increase is it for you. Also xenon you say you parse top5 dps. Whats your average dps?

Message Edited by Starwindz on 01-03-2007 06:43 PM

TaleraRis · 01-04-2007, 11:32 AM

Gareorn wrote:

TheStormrider wrote:

Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged.

I realize this statement is true, but it still boggles my mind as to why anyone would be outraged by someone else's success.

Because you didn't get it by subscribing to "their" way of playing for one, and because they can't be unique and special and lord it over you that they have something that dropped from a raid mob. Try to suggest any possible way challenge could be put in for a good item that doesn't require raiding, and the hardcore raiders jump down your throat. I've been in enough arguments on the boards about it, and that's the reaction I've gotten. You get the silver platter argument, you get the wanting something for nothing. Nevermind if you say you do want to work, just have no interest in raiding. To the ones that would be upset by what you can get in your playstyle, the only way to play is to raid and any other playstyle is inferior, and thus deserves inferior reward, regardless of the time put into it.

Merkad · 01-04-2007, 11:32 AM

Thanks Lewz. I am not really sure about the increase in dps, for some strange reason, alot of people in the guild have picked up their game and mobs have been dying alot faster now, which raised my parses due to the shorter duration. It seems to be better I guess. We did MMIS tonight (sans Mayong) and I was at 1570 extdps after 46:22 (next highest was 1162 (Nemm was absent)). I do know that the potential to hit some disgusting numbers seems alot better. On a dual blood colossus fight (they have ~3 million hps or so), I had 2422 extdps after 5:07. I am guessing alot of double attacks and good crits occurred. I normally have ~80haste and ~90 dps for raids, and we had 1 of our brigand's show up tonight, which is good, considering the Tactician's armor thing. As for parse position, I am usually first or second to Nemm, our conjuror. Hopefully, this bow will resolve our little fight.Anyways, sorry for the derailment on the post.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

Judist · 01-04-2007, 03:52 PM

Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:

:smileysad: Well, dont hold your breath waiting for us to get fixed, It wont happen. You, as well as MOST of the rangers on in this forum know were broken. Our dps HAS in fact been lowered, our ca casting timers raised, mobs made faster and backpeddling slowed down. Our stuns have had their duration lowered. This was done for the reason of someone's idea of class balance.

I do raid quite frequently, and am mostly using fabled and legendary, with All my spells either master or adept 3's, before EoF came out, i was always in the top 4 of the raid parse. Now, raiding, im lucky to EVEN make the parse ( no my play style has not changed). They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ".

Cant blame the devs becuase your not making the chart.

And they wont fix what isnt broken.

Frankly, there are rangers out there that proved you can opbtain high DPS numbers without a T7 fabled longbow + T8 ammo. This "more of less" comes from having a full fabled armor/jewelry setup, ~600 STR and all masters. Point is, they are getting high numbers.

So if your gonna blame anyone, blame the rangers who didnt accept being a low DPSer and actually learned to play the class correctly to become a high DPSer. If I can achieve 1.2k+ zonewide DPS with 80% mastercrafted armor and 80% Adept1's with 330 self buffed STR, then theres nothing wrong.

If I actually start spending DKP on the ranger alt and get a full set fabled gear I'm looking at 1.6k zonewide easy. And no, thats not a small number. 15 DPS classes @ 1.5k each in a raid = ~24k raidwide DPS which will get the job done no problem. Thats double the DPS of an entry level or casual raid guild.

kidpaul · 01-04-2007, 07:01 PM

I dont mind Fabled T7 bow being hard to get but man I hate it when people say just get T8 ammo and your be on par or above other classes we shouldn't need T8 ammo to be able to be on par with other scout classes wielding T7 weapons if we do need a higher Teir ammo to be able to keep up then there is something wrong with our class. I dont see T8 ammo as a great fix cause the next tier when everyone else are runing about with T8 weapon well what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] then?Sorry for the rant but im so sick of the phrase "just get t8 ammo" if you want dps well then work your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off for it works for me.

Ranja · 01-04-2007, 08:02 PM

BeatinGuts wrote:

Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:

:smileysad: Well, dont hold your breath waiting for us to get fixed, It wont happen. You, as well as MOST of the rangers on in this forum know were broken. Our dps HAS in fact been lowered, our ca casting timers raised, mobs made faster and backpeddling slowed down. Our stuns have had their duration lowered. This was done for the reason of someone's idea of class balance.

I do raid quite frequently, and am mostly using fabled and legendary, with All my spells either master or adept 3's, before EoF came out, i was always in the top 4 of the raid parse. Now, raiding, im lucky to EVEN make the parse ( no my play style has not changed). They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ".

Cant blame the devs becuase your not making the chart.

And they wont fix what isnt broken.

Frankly, there are rangers out there that proved you can opbtain high DPS numbers without a T7 fabled longbow + T8 ammo. This "more of less" comes from having a full fabled armor/jewelry setup, ~600 STR and all masters. Point is, they are getting high numbers.

So if your gonna blame anyone, blame the rangers who didnt accept being a low DPSer and actually learned to play the class correctly to become a high DPSer. If I can achieve 1.2k+ zonewide DPS with 80% mastercrafted armor and 80% Adept1's with 330 self buffed STR, then theres nothing wrong.

If I actually start spending DKP on the ranger alt and get a full set fabled gear I'm looking at 1.6k zonewide easy. And no, thats not a small number. 15 DPS classes @ 1.5k each in a raid = ~24k raidwide DPS which will get the job done no problem. Thats double the DPS of an entry level or casual raid guild.

I ahve highlighted the absurd part of your post. You say we are not broke then you say as long as we have T8 ammo and one of the 4 best bows in the game. So we need ammo that is from an expansion that has not come yet and a bow maybe 1% of the ranger population will get. All this to compete with Swashie and Brigs that have a ton of utility and can keep up in legendary.i agree with the rest of your post just not the part I hihglighted.

LoreLady · 01-04-2007, 08:42 PM

I agree with bentgate on this, swashy's brigs/necro's/conj's can keep up in legendary.. And untill we get either 100 aa's or t8 ammo we are the underdogs... Im fine with this though, what I am not fine is the fact that I have 4 fabled duel weilds and only 1 fabled bow.. A guildie of mine got the ichorstrand a while back, and I am still stuck without one after months of farming. I shouldent have to rely on 2 items in the game to do dps.

Merkad · 01-04-2007, 11:25 PM

@bentgate - Actually the bolded portion of your quote specifically says *without* a t7 fabled bow and t8 ammo. BeatinGuts is essentially saying masters + high stats (presumably adornments too) will allow people without those to be a t1 dps class. I don't think I really agree, unless too many people are slacking off. But time to go to work, so I will leave it at this.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

Judist · 01-05-2007, 02:07 AM

Yea, you read it and even highlighted it and didnt catch the "without"... SMILEY I do the same tho, read abit to fast sometimes.

The only thing rangers are not gonna get without those bows+t8 ammo is 2k+ zonewide DPS. Yea, it sucks that you cant blow minds with those top-end numbers, but honestly you can still put out some competitive DPS if you focus on everything else.

One mistake many rangers sadly make is chucking the Ghostly Bow of Bylze from early claymore. Because its tagged treasured, they dont get a second look at it and vendor it. It out parses raincaller, grizfazzles and wurm destroyer. Tho raincaller is far superior to use in a heroic group/solo situation for its proc.

Ghostly Bow of Bylze 9.0 second
65 - 585 damage @ 72.3 DR

Rain Caller 7.0 second
131-394 @ 75.0 DR

Grizzfazzle 6.0 second
140-326 @ 77.6 DR

Wurm Destroyer 4.5 second
103-310 @ 91.7 DR

As you can see even with a lower DR the Bylze bow has the highest top-end damage, potential to outcrit the rest for a substantial amount, and its the slowest of them all, meaning a much less chance to lower its DR from CA delays/mistiming.

Its top end damage is the kicker. This bow has an average crit for 4k auto for me. And gotta remember I'm /flexing with some sickly low STR (330 self buffed) which dosent help. Haste is definitly a good thing with this bow, which leaves an almost perfect amount of time fo CA's in between my autos.

Now compare end game bows for fun...

Ghostly Bow of Bylze 9.0 second
65 - 585 damage @ 72.3 DR

Bazkul 6.5 second
151-454 @ 93.2

Sarnak War Bow 8.0 second
121-686 @ 100.9

Longbow of Corruption 8.5 second
135-764 @ 105.7

The Byzle bow even has potential to outcrit Bazkul, tho Bazkul will out DPS it in the long run. Byzle also only has 100 less top-end than Sarnak. Sarnaks faster rate (if only 1 second) and twice the low end damage makes it quite better tho.

Longbow of Corruption blows it all away. SMILEY /drool /drool /drool

Edited multiple times to compare DR vs top-end damage of bows mentioned.

Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 01-04-2007 01:27 PM

Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 01-04-2007 01:38 PM

Starwindz · 01-05-2007, 04:15 AM

nice post beatin have you seen mayongs bow though, rocks them all

Judist · 01-05-2007, 05:12 AM

Aw jeeze, another one? :smileyvery-happy:

Know the name so I can search the database? Would love to see what I could never have, just for giggles.

Lev · 01-05-2007, 07:04 AM

The newly discovered "Star Darkened Bow"800+ max dmg

Lesca · 01-05-2007, 06:58 PM

I saw the stats of that Mayong bow the other day and almost fell out of my chair. What a Christmas present that would be... The only problem I have now is if it drops do I do the noble thing and let the other guild Ranger (who doesn't have ASWB) take it, or do I be selfish and grab it for myself, considering I already have the War Bow? SMILEY

On a related note I saw someone on Splitpaw running round with a Sarnak. It was a Berserker. SMILEY

LoreLady · 01-05-2007, 09:02 PM

I have to disagree with you on this one beatingguts SMILEY

- While the bow has a high damage, high delay, it has a dlow damage rating.. The possibility to "crit" is higher, but the possibility to sustain high damage is lower.. The bow that comes out of claymore is a nice legendary bow - however it willnot outdamage other fabled bows..The main retort to this however, is that shortbows have a hard time getting all there shots in - and that leads to lowered dps..

Gnome mercy · 01-07-2007, 02:36 PM

Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:

They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ".

Technically we arent broken, they made us what they planned us out to be, sure they nerfed and what not but technically we cant use the term "we are broken" cause we arent. I know SoE took a huge hit on us actually they do it alot but its what they planned out, so lets say instead of us saying we are brokena nd need a fix lets just say we are underpowered to what we should be.

01-03-2007, 11:52 PM	#2
Gareorn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,144	TheStormrider wrote: Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged. I realize this statement is true, but it still boggles my mind as to why anyone would be outraged by someone else's success. Making good bows more accessable would probably solve the problem with the least amount of effort. It would be a shame if we found out that our problems are not being fixed because of some perceived self-centered mind set. My input... Make the good bows available to more people and the problem will be real close to being solved. Fix the itemization before trying to fix anything else. __________________ Leader of the vast right-wing conspiricy... Hiding from the world's smartest woman in a bunker under a Hooter's restaurant.

01-04-2007, 12:24 AM	#3
Gnome mercy Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 303	Gareorn wrote: TheStormrider wrote: Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged. I realize this statement is true, but it still boggles my mind as to why anyone would be outraged by someone else's success. Making good bows more accessable would probably solve the problem with the least amount of effort. It would be a shame if we found out that our problems are not being fixed because of some perceived self-centered mind set. My input... Make the good bows available to more people and the problem will be real close to being solved. Fix the itemization before trying to fix anything else. It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work, its different to say yeah i killed a level 100 epic x4 mob for this bow that it is to say yeah i killed a level 100 +3 mob for this bow. Its just that big of a difference. Honestly I don't mind the bows being a challenge to get, challenges spark me. Just think of it when you finally get to the point where you can get a sarnak warbow or whatever bow you got your eye on you finally get it after years of triumphing when a noob walks up with 1 saying yeah i just bought this from the baz because people are farming them they are so easy to get. Gotta look at both sides of the playing field here, sure it will be easier, but people complain

01-04-2007, 12:29 AM	#4
Prandtl Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 474	Gnome mercy wrote: It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work, its different to say yeah i killed a level 100 epic x4 mob for this bow that it is to say yeah i killed a level 100 +3 mob for this bow. Its just that big of a difference. Honestly I don't mind the bows being a challenge to get, challenges spark me. Just think of it when you finally get to the point where you can get a sarnak warbow or whatever bow you got your eye on you finally get it after years of triumphing when a noob walks up with 1 saying yeah i just bought this from the baz because people are farming them they are so easy to get. Gotta look at both sides of the playing field here, sure it will be easier, but people complain Don't get me wrong. The challege of getting these bow spark me as well. But the challenge kind of wears thin after your guild has dropped Tarinax for the umpteenth time and that ^%#%^& bow still hasn't dropped. Thats when it changes from challenging to grinding. __________________

01-04-2007, 12:52 AM	#5
VisualFoundry Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 35	Gnome mercy wrote: It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work... I have to agree with you here, and being one of the rangers who does not currently have a 100+ DR bow, I have to say that I still somewhat enjoy the thrill of the hunt for one. But keep in mind that SOE has a pretty solid track record of throwing away people's hard work for them. Remember the tradeskill changes that were made in DoF? I spent two weeks crafting for more hours per day than I feel comfortable admitting so that I would be the first 60 weaponsmith on Neriak. Ten or so days later, SOE changes crafting xp and by the end of that week (four days after xp changes) there are eight 60 weaponsmiths on our server who had been 52 or below before the xp changes. I realize that this doesn't pertain directly to rangers, but I bring it up purely as an example of how little SOE cares for the amount of work we put into this game. Message Edited by VisualFoundry on 01-03-2007 11:53 AM

01-04-2007, 03:06 AM	#7
Dark_Moons_Rising Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 37	:smileysad: Well, dont hold your breath waiting for us to get fixed, It wont happen. You, as well as MOST of the rangers on in this forum know were broken. Our dps HAS in fact been lowered, our ca casting timers raised, mobs made faster and backpeddling slowed down. Our stuns have had their duration lowered. This was done for the reason of someone's idea of class balance. I do raid quite frequently, and am mostly using fabled and legendary, with All my spells either master or adept 3's, before EoF came out, i was always in the top 4 of the raid parse. Now, raiding, im lucky to EVEN make the parse ( no my play style has not changed). They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ". __________________ Amaryllis Wintersbloom Level 80 Swashbuckler Ledoakain Mistrunner Level 80 ranger

01-03-2007, 10:04 PM	#1
TheStormrider Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 36	After a lot of deliberation, and arguing, and reading umpteen hundred threads about ranger dps, it finally dawned on me when and how it will be fixed, if I had to guess. Not that anyone really cares, but I was bored and thought id post it. The basic issue is, with a godly bow, and T8 ammo, were great dps. Without were mediocre to good. The problem is that if SoE nerfs the godly gear, and ammo, the raiding rangers are outraged. If they boost any other aspect of rangers, those rangers are overpowered, grossly. Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged. So if I had to guess, based on the fact that I have never read any posts by someone with a red name, comment on any of this, is that they are at a loss. Or they dont care. I choose to believe its the prior, not the latter, for my own sanity. So the fix if I had to guess, would be in the next 10 level expansion. In which case, the new tier bows will be scaled back and the difference between a hard to get fabled, and a fairly common will be much less, there is no t9 ammo, and the next 10 levels of CA's will receive a boost there by bringing the class into a 'managable set of equations' to balance. So, my challenge for this thread, is for people to come up with a better fix constructively. Hit all the angles, have both advantages and disadvantages to the class and the changes, while bringing it back in line.

01-04-2007, 02:28 AM	#6
Xenon Crimson Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 12	"The basic issue is, with a godly bow, and T8 ammo, were great dps. Without were mediocre to good. " - i have to disagree to prove a point to a ranger who doesnt have the ammo I used a legendary bow and crafted arrows - I still parsed in the top 5 (others being necro, assasin, brigs).

01-04-2007, 03:25 AM	#8
pseudocide Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 244	the solution is giving woodworkers arrows that can compete with t8 summoned ammo (and double the amount of arrows given by 1 combine) __________________

01-04-2007, 04:26 AM	#9
Gareorn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,144	Prandtl wrote: Gnome mercy wrote: It would outrage people cause the rangers and whoever else that have worked hard for them bows have just thrown away their work, its different to say yeah i killed a level 100 epic x4 mob for this bow that it is to say yeah i killed a level 100 +3 mob for this bow. Its just that big of a difference. Honestly I don't mind the bows being a challenge to get, challenges spark me. Just think of it when you finally get to the point where you can get a sarnak warbow or whatever bow you got your eye on you finally get it after years of triumphing when a noob walks up with 1 saying yeah i just bought this from the baz because people are farming them they are so easy to get. Gotta look at both sides of the playing field here, sure it will be easier, but people complain Don't get me wrong. The challege of getting these bow spark me as well. But the challenge kind of wears thin after your guild has dropped Tarinax for the umpteenth time and that ^%#%^& bow still hasn't dropped. Thats when it changes from challenging to grinding. And I'd like to add, that many of those who would be outraged by fixing the itemization are the same people who said jack about nerfing drops in T7 raid zones, after outfitting their entire guild in relic in under a weeks worth of time. I'd bet good money that the outrage would be more a issue of being "king of the hill" than personal accomplishment. Edit: Almost forgot to keep the thread on topic... I still think fixing itemization is the way to go. It doesn't make any sense to leave something broke only because a few people might have some self-esteem issues. I have two dual weild weapons whose combined DR is over 112 and both those weapons dropped in Lab. Is it really too much to ask to do the same thing for ranged weapons? I've also seen a couple of awesome 2H slash weapons drop there, including Gaundralek, Sword of the Sky (DR 101.4). Message Edited by Gareorn on 01-03-2007 03:49 PM __________________ Leader of the vast right-wing conspiricy... Hiding from the world's smartest woman in a bunker under a Hooter's restaurant.

01-04-2007, 04:40 AM	#10
Nulad General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 638	So because of the few the many must suffer.Dayam, OP does make a lot of sense though. __________________

01-04-2007, 06:42 AM	#11
Merkad General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 246	I have had my Bazkul for about a month, I got my Sarnak bow last night. All I can say is that I hope others don't have to wait as long as I did to get them. I mostly agree with the OP, Rangers are unique in the way we operate, and balancing between the haves and have nots is tough. Most likely, the only real answer is to implement more bows to lessen the gap for the non raiders/unluckies. Perhaps even have these other bows drop t7 or even t8 ammo (just for another source of t8 ammo, and one more casual folks can have a chance at) just to help alleviate ammo issues.EoF has been kind to my guild, in an odd way. Since EoF came out, our horrid luck with KoS is finally dissapearing, we got our second bazkul (mine) our first Sarnak bow (again mine) and our first Ichor filled Thorax, just waiting on that hover platform now (not me for, I hate any and all mounts). But that is all rng issues I think, and it certainly does not help people not able to do those areas.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

01-04-2007, 07:41 AM	#12
Starwindz Lord Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 164	Merkades, i heard from soliloquy last nite that you got your sarnak grats man. How much of a dps increase is it for you. Also xenon you say you parse top5 dps. Whats your average dps? Message Edited by Starwindz on 01-03-2007 06:43 PM

01-04-2007, 11:32 AM	#13
TaleraRis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,083	Gareorn wrote: TheStormrider wrote: Adding 'easier' to get bows, will make some people happy as well, but the raiding population will again be outraged. I realize this statement is true, but it still boggles my mind as to why anyone would be outraged by someone else's success. Because you didn't get it by subscribing to "their" way of playing for one, and because they can't be unique and special and lord it over you that they have something that dropped from a raid mob. Try to suggest any possible way challenge could be put in for a good item that doesn't require raiding, and the hardcore raiders jump down your throat. I've been in enough arguments on the boards about it, and that's the reaction I've gotten. You get the silver platter argument, you get the wanting something for nothing. Nevermind if you say you do want to work, just have no interest in raiding. To the ones that would be upset by what you can get in your playstyle, the only way to play is to raid and any other playstyle is inferior, and thus deserves inferior reward, regardless of the time put into it. __________________ Gwyneth Lecarde 90 Warty Arrow Flinger 90 Sword Shiner Najena Morgasand Ka'Bael 54 Roswellian Mind Scrambler 87 Shield Polisher Najena

01-04-2007, 03:52 PM	#15
Judist Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 432	Dark_Moons_Rising wrote: :smileysad: Well, dont hold your breath waiting for us to get fixed, It wont happen. You, as well as MOST of the rangers on in this forum know were broken. Our dps HAS in fact been lowered, our ca casting timers raised, mobs made faster and backpeddling slowed down. Our stuns have had their duration lowered. This was done for the reason of someone's idea of class balance. I do raid quite frequently, and am mostly using fabled and legendary, with All my spells either master or adept 3's, before EoF came out, i was always in the top 4 of the raid parse. Now, raiding, im lucky to EVEN make the parse ( no my play style has not changed). They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ". Cant blame the devs becuase your not making the chart. And they wont fix what isnt broken. Frankly, there are rangers out there that proved you can opbtain high DPS numbers without a T7 fabled longbow + T8 ammo. This "more of less" comes from having a full fabled armor/jewelry setup, ~600 STR and all masters. Point is, they are getting high numbers. So if your gonna blame anyone, blame the rangers who didnt accept being a low DPSer and actually learned to play the class correctly to become a high DPSer. If I can achieve 1.2k+ zonewide DPS with 80% mastercrafted armor and 80% Adept1's with 330 self buffed STR, then theres nothing wrong. If I actually start spending DKP on the ranger alt and get a full set fabled gear I'm looking at 1.6k zonewide easy. And no, thats not a small number. 15 DPS classes @ 1.5k each in a raid = ~24k raidwide DPS which will get the job done no problem. Thats double the DPS of an entry level or casual raid guild.

01-04-2007, 07:01 PM	#16
kidpaul Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	I dont mind Fabled T7 bow being hard to get but man I hate it when people say just get T8 ammo and your be on par or above other classes we shouldn't need T8 ammo to be able to be on par with other scout classes wielding T7 weapons if we do need a higher Teir ammo to be able to keep up then there is something wrong with our class. I dont see T8 ammo as a great fix cause the next tier when everyone else are runing about with T8 weapon well what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] then?Sorry for the rant but im so sick of the phrase "just get t8 ammo" if you want dps well then work your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off for it works for me.

01-04-2007, 08:02 PM	#17
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	BeatinGuts wrote: Dark_Moons_Rising wrote: :smileysad: Well, dont hold your breath waiting for us to get fixed, It wont happen. You, as well as MOST of the rangers on in this forum know were broken. Our dps HAS in fact been lowered, our ca casting timers raised, mobs made faster and backpeddling slowed down. Our stuns have had their duration lowered. This was done for the reason of someone's idea of class balance. I do raid quite frequently, and am mostly using fabled and legendary, with All my spells either master or adept 3's, before EoF came out, i was always in the top 4 of the raid parse. Now, raiding, im lucky to EVEN make the parse ( no my play style has not changed). They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ". Cant blame the devs becuase your not making the chart. And they wont fix what isnt broken. Frankly, there are rangers out there that proved you can opbtain high DPS numbers without a T7 fabled longbow + T8 ammo. This "more of less" comes from having a full fabled armor/jewelry setup, ~600 STR and all masters. Point is, they are getting high numbers. So if your gonna blame anyone, blame the rangers who didnt accept being a low DPSer and actually learned to play the class correctly to become a high DPSer. If I can achieve 1.2k+ zonewide DPS with 80% mastercrafted armor and 80% Adept1's with 330 self buffed STR, then theres nothing wrong. If I actually start spending DKP on the ranger alt and get a full set fabled gear I'm looking at 1.6k zonewide easy. And no, thats not a small number. 15 DPS classes @ 1.5k each in a raid = ~24k raidwide DPS which will get the job done no problem. Thats double the DPS of an entry level or casual raid guild. I ahve highlighted the absurd part of your post. You say we are not broke then you say as long as we have T8 ammo and one of the 4 best bows in the game. So we need ammo that is from an expansion that has not come yet and a bow maybe 1% of the ranger population will get. All this to compete with Swashie and Brigs that have a ton of utility and can keep up in legendary.i agree with the rest of your post just not the part I hihglighted. __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

01-04-2007, 08:42 PM	#18
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	I agree with bentgate on this, swashy's brigs/necro's/conj's can keep up in legendary.. And untill we get either 100 aa's or t8 ammo we are the underdogs... Im fine with this though, what I am not fine is the fact that I have 4 fabled duel weilds and only 1 fabled bow.. A guildie of mine got the ichorstrand a while back, and I am still stuck without one after months of farming. I shouldent have to rely on 2 items in the game to do dps. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

01-04-2007, 11:25 PM	#19
Merkad General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 246	@bentgate - Actually the bolded portion of your quote specifically says without a t7 fabled bow and t8 ammo. BeatinGuts is essentially saying masters + high stats (presumably adornments too) will allow people without those to be a t1 dps class. I don't think I really agree, unless too many people are slacking off. But time to go to work, so I will leave it at this.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

01-05-2007, 02:07 AM	#20
Judist Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 432	Yea, you read it and even highlighted it and didnt catch the "without"... I do the same tho, read abit to fast sometimes. The only thing rangers are not gonna get *without* those bows+t8 ammo is 2k+ zonewide DPS. Yea, it sucks that you cant blow minds with those top-end numbers, but honestly you can still put out some competitive DPS if you focus on everything else. One mistake many rangers sadly make is chucking the Ghostly Bow of Bylze from early claymore. Because its tagged treasured, they dont get a second look at it and vendor it. It out parses raincaller, grizfazzles and wurm destroyer. Tho raincaller is far superior to use in a heroic group/solo situation for its proc. Ghostly Bow of Bylze 9.0 second 65 - 585 damage @ 72.3 DR Rain Caller 7.0 second 131-394 @ 75.0 DR Grizzfazzle 6.0 second 140-326 @ 77.6 DR Wurm Destroyer 4.5 second 103-310 @ 91.7 DR As you can see even with a lower DR the Bylze bow has the highest top-end damage, potential to outcrit the rest for a substantial amount, and its the slowest of them all, meaning a much less chance to lower its DR from CA delays/mistiming. Its top end damage is the kicker. This bow has an average crit for 4k auto for me. And gotta remember I'm /flexing with some sickly low STR (330 self buffed) which dosent help. Haste is definitly a good thing with this bow, which leaves an almost perfect amount of time fo CA's in between my autos. Now compare end game bows for fun... Ghostly Bow of Bylze 9.0 second 65 - 585 damage @ 72.3 DR Bazkul 6.5 second 151-454 @ 93.2 Sarnak War Bow 8.0 second 121-686 @ 100.9 Longbow of Corruption 8.5 second 135-764 @ 105.7 The Byzle bow even has potential to outcrit Bazkul, tho Bazkul will out DPS it in the long run. Byzle also only has 100 less top-end than Sarnak. Sarnaks faster rate (if only 1 second) and twice the low end damage makes it quite better tho. Longbow of Corruption blows it all away. /drool /drool /drool Edited multiple times to compare DR vs top-end damage of bows mentioned. Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 01-04-2007 01:27 PM Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 01-04-2007 01:38 PM

01-05-2007, 04:15 AM	#21
Starwindz Lord Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 164	nice post beatin have you seen mayongs bow though, rocks them all

01-05-2007, 05:12 AM	#22
Judist Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 432	Aw jeeze, another one? :smileyvery-happy: Know the name so I can search the database? Would love to see what I could never have, just for giggles.

01-05-2007, 07:04 AM	#23
Lev General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 171	The newly discovered "Star Darkened Bow"800+ max dmg

01-05-2007, 06:58 PM	#24
Lesca Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	I saw the stats of that Mayong bow the other day and almost fell out of my chair. What a Christmas present that would be... The only problem I have now is if it drops do I do the noble thing and let the other guild Ranger (who doesn't have ASWB) take it, or do I be selfish and grab it for myself, considering I already have the War Bow? On a related note I saw someone on Splitpaw running round with a Sarnak. It was a Berserker. __________________

01-05-2007, 09:02 PM	#25
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	I have to disagree with you on this one beatingguts - While the bow has a high damage, high delay, it has a dlow damage rating.. The possibility to "crit" is higher, but the possibility to sustain high damage is lower.. The bow that comes out of claymore is a nice legendary bow - however it willnot outdamage other fabled bows..The main retort to this however, is that shortbows have a hard time getting all there shots in - and that leads to lowered dps.. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

01-07-2007, 02:36 PM	#26
Gnome mercy Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 303	Dark_Moons_Rising wrote: They can't fix, what they wont admit is even broken. As one dev stated " in a zonewide parse, rangers are right where they need to be ". Technically we arent broken, they made us what they planned us out to be, sure they nerfed and what not but technically we cant use the term "we are broken" cause we arent. I know SoE took a huge hit on us actually they do it alot but its what they planned out, so lets say instead of us saying we are brokena nd need a fix lets just say we are underpowered to what we should be.