Be honest, where are you on the parsings? - Page 15

Ishbu · 08-01-2006, 12:12 AM

FiftyK wrote:Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.

Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.

Spite · 08-01-2006, 12:22 AM

Pinski wrote:

Valderen wrote:
The only way to know would be to have Lockeye play in a ranger in a raid guild that would post their parse...personally I think that's asking too much.

So, basically you're saying that we have no possibility of showing an un-biased parse because we're asking for too much in the fact that we want the class fixed?

The other thing is this, the "perceived" issue with ranger DPS is apparent only in the top 5% guild that do everything to maximize DPS...where getting a class that could do 5DPS more then another is enough to ignore the one that does less. Should the entire game be balanced for those top 5% raiding guild?

The difference is not 5DPS. We're talking about, roughly, a 10% dps difference. That is not a small difference. But anyway, shouldn't the game be balanced at every level? Plus, there are ways to improve Ranger DPS in high-end raids, while not making them unbeatable in DPS.

Even if we over look the 10% DPS deficit (more like 15% IMHO but its all good), the class still bring nothing else to the table. Rangers as a whole package leave a lot to be desired raid wise. Thats the WHOLE point and The All-Seeing Lockeye posting raw numbers means IMHO he too is blind to it.

griffit · 08-01-2006, 12:23 AM

As the thread progresses the more it seems likely that Rangers can parse up there with the other big boys on a raid given certain conditions.1) That they have a decent bow. Which are as rare as hens teeth.2) That they purchase appropriate tier arrows. Which will cost an arm and a leg, still no 'long promised' fix from SOE3) If you only look at boss fights. Our CA timers are more unevenly spaced compared to our Assassin brethern (a fact that I can personally attest too as a ranger that betrayed) so if you look at the overall picture we have much more variation in dps from fight to fight compared to an Assassin. That variation is where I believe a lot of that supposed 20-30% dps difference comes in. I might do the same dps or better for one fight and then be 3rd or 4th spot for the next 2 fights while I wait for CA to become active.4) They work like a dog for it.Which still begs the question, why play a Ranger? Other than some sense of sentimentality towards the class itself like that expressed by Jay42? If you can play an Assassin and get the similar too or better dps with less work and without the dependance on expensive arrows then whats the point? Or play a Swashy or Brig who have been shown to do similar dps given the gear and effort put in, who also have the utility.Perhaps giving us the Easy dps button might not be the answer. However there are somethings that DEFINTELY need to be addressed. The whole arrow issue, we know SOE is looking into it. They have been looking into it for the better part of 2006, with no hope of seeing a fix until EoF release in November or beyond, that is one long long wait. Also as other mentioned, bow drops. 2h dps drops pretty regularly, their range equivalents are extremely hard to find. Which definitely effects ranger dps since the effort put into getting a decent raid bow is so Bob damned high. I think the couple hundred responses to this thread show that there is indeed a problem, it might not require a DPS boost but there definitely factors that need to be taken into account and addressed.

Spite · 08-01-2006, 12:25 AM

Ishboozor wrote:

FiftyK wrote:
Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.

Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period.

In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.

Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average.

Ishbu · 08-01-2006, 12:31 AM

FiftyK wrote:
Ishboozor wrote:

FiftyK wrote:
Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.

Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period.

In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.
Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average.

My mistake then.

Spite · 08-01-2006, 12:33 AM

Ishboozor wrote:

FiftyK wrote:

Ishboozor wrote:

FiftyK wrote:

Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.

Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period.

In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.

Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average.

My mistake then.

NP. I would have specified T7 BTW if i could have thought of one.

Straylig · 08-01-2006, 12:43 AM

Ishboo:In that group setup, I keep forgetting that the Templar is actually an Inquisitor now. I knew him so long as a Templar so that he'll always seem that way in my mind when I think of him. My bad. SMILEY

(My fourth mistake ever. Give a guy a break.)

Ishbu · 08-01-2006, 12:44 AM

Inquisitor makes a lot more sense SMILEY

Longtrang · 08-01-2006, 12:57 AM

Can I get in Lockeye's guild???? Please Please!!!

xenocyst · 08-01-2006, 01:22 AM

Just wanted to throw my 2c into this since it correlates what several people are saying. In my previous guild we had a ranger who parses very very high. In my current guild we do not. So as a fun little experiment we had my friend from my old guild play one of our rangers for a bit to see what happened. Interestingly enough, in general he was not able to put up the numbers that he and I both expected. The buff situation was poor in that particular raid but did not differer dramatically from normal raid groups on his character. So what happened? I think it's true that as skill scales up rangers start to fall behind.People have talked about damage potential and I think that's the key to the ranger problem. I'm really glad rangers parse so well in some cases, but after a parse of ~900 my friend sent me the following tell: "I get 1500 doing the exact same thing normally" so the potential just isn't scaling.

IllusiveThoughts · 08-01-2006, 01:22 AM

Demlar wrote:

Ok, spent all day reading through this thread and I think most people reading this can agree that the best results we could hope to show for where a Ranger really stands is wait to see what numbers come out of Khalan running Axkiva for a Disso raid. You then get folks who know what they are doing, in group setups for killing things quick and a very well equipped ranger.

I do think Lore made one very valid point earlier. If you notice, a lot of the people agreeing and helping support the arguement that rangers in the high end raid environment are lacking, don't play rangers.

I'd love to post parses and data from what I pull on raids but the info I have is incomplete. The guild I'm in doesn't have a raiding assassin and rarely has a conjurer on the raids. We do have a zerker, warlock and swashies that can match/beat me on dps a lot of the time though. The Zerker, when not tanking, beats me on DPS just from his ichorstrand alone, and I have the Ancient Sarnak bow from Venekor. Double attack is a wonderful thing I guess. lol

I agree, an unbiased fully fabled / mastered ranger played by a long time ranger from another top guild, mixed in with a guild that min/maxes will flush out any arguments one could make otherwise about ranger dps issues.

I also dont have a full sample in the guild I raid with since there is no assasin, no brigand, we do however raid with a nec/conj/wizzie(me)/warlock/zerker/bruiser that can parse 2k.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 07-31-2006 02:24 PM

Crychtonn · 08-01-2006, 01:28 AM

Outside of the whole lack of good bow issue there is one other area that stands out like a sore thumb in why assassins, swashy and brigands can jump ahead of rangers so easy. It all comes back to that evil P word Proc's. Melee classes like these get crap loads of proc's that add to their DPS while rangers get very few.

I keep meaning to but haven't done it yet make a list of all the numorous buff proc's all the classes in game give out. Listing all the ones that only work on melee attacks vs those that work on either melee or ranged. I'd love to compare in the ones that only work on ranged attacks but ya they don't exist. Assassins and rouges get Proc's galore when setup in raids. While rangers get Ember Seed and the one dirge buff that proc's on bows (forget the name).

Ishbu · 08-01-2006, 01:29 AM

It should be noted that Axkiva does not have a t7 fabled bow because we have always had bad luck and simply cant get them to drop.For example, guild on our server has killed tarinax 3times and has 2 bows and 1 satchel from him.We have killed tarinax every week since april and have 1 bow and 1 satchel.

Dirtgirl · 08-01-2006, 01:38 AM

The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....
And Venekor dropped the scout BP for me, but alas no bow.

Ixnay · 08-01-2006, 01:40 AM

Dirtgirl wrote:
The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....

My, what a coincidence! SMILEY

Ranvarenaya · 08-01-2006, 01:41 AM

We have had poor luck on that bow also, in the first 15(i think) kills we got 1 satchel and zero bows. I got mine on 16 and our second on 17. Still, no character in our guild has a bow with a DR over 100 while we have piles of 100+ dr 2handers rot week after week.

MystaSkrat · 08-01-2006, 01:42 AM

Ixnay wrote:

Dirtgirl wrote:
The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....

My, what a coincidence!

For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.

Katsugen · 08-01-2006, 01:46 AM

If you're gonna through up raw numbers that YOU know are gonna have people questioning them, then you have to give some sort or background on them. I think the real problem I'm having is that we aren't seeing high end raid parses w/ rangers that look anything like what Lockeye showed.

If the system is not broken then I would expect to see other parses that look like that. Just in this thread alone I can find multiple parses with Necro/Conj/Zerkers/Assassins/Wizzy's/Warlock/Swashys/Brigands all at the top. If what you say is true then I would expect to have seen just as many parses w/ rangers up at the top. Where are those parses?

I'm anxiously awaiting some guild that can show me a bunch of parses where the ranger is trouncing everyone. That's what Lockeye's data suggests, and that what I want to see. Then I'll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go back to trying to get better.

- Katsugen

Snarks · 08-01-2006, 01:47 AM

MystaSkratch wrote:

Ixnay wrote:

Dirtgirl wrote:
The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....

My, what a coincidence!

For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.

/glances at the sarnak war bow rotting in bank yeah, I think we need more jewelry kthx

Dirtgirl · 08-01-2006, 01:51 AM

snarkteeth wrote:

/glances at the sarnak war bow rotting in bank

yeah, I think we need more jewelry kthx

Why Snark? Why do you have to torment me like this?

Gareorn · 08-01-2006, 01:51 AM

FiftyK wrote:

Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average.

It wasn't a question. It was an attempt at humor.:smileyhappy:

IllusiveThoughts · 08-01-2006, 02:02 AM

MystaSkratch wrote:

Ixnay wrote:

Dirtgirl wrote:
The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....

My, what a coincidence!

For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.

so you didn't get the bow eh?

MystaSkrat · 08-01-2006, 02:02 AM

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

so you didn't get the bow eh?

How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy:

I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway...

Dirtgirl · 08-01-2006, 02:04 AM

No. I'll just say I wasn't in the zone at that particular point and leave it at that.

LoreLady · 08-01-2006, 02:04 AM

Katsugen wrote:
If you're gonna through up raw numbers that YOU know are gonna have people questioning them, then you have to give some sort or background on them. I think the real problem I'm having is that we aren't seeing high end raid parses w/ rangers that look anything like what Lockeye showed.

If the system is not broken then I would expect to see other parses that look like that. Just in this thread alone I can find multiple parses with Necro/Conj/Zerkers/Assassins/Wizzy's/Warlock/Swashys/Brigands all at the top. If what you say is true then I would expect to have seen just as many parses w/ rangers up at the top. Where are those parses?

I'm anxiously awaiting some guild that can show me a bunch of parses where the ranger is trouncing everyone. That's what Lockeye's data suggests, and that what I want to see. Then I'll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go back to trying to get better.

- Katsugen

Ummm... Like mine? Or.. Maybe like sokolovs? Ummm.. Both of us agree on the same thing.. Rangers are underpowred.. What we DONT agree on, is the extent of this game.. his gap shows a 12% diffrence while the assassin isent using there killing mark thingie, and assuming that mark makes up 10-15%ish of the assassin dps, this gap widens by that much more... My thing is alot more confusing, but show about a 20-30% diffrence in dps..I am currently working on getting all of that compiled into spreadsheets, and I am currently working on a new one with recycletime/dps.. But, the way I did it isent your basic stuff to put on a spreadsheet, I used crits where there would be crits and regular damage where there would be regular damage (assuming focus aim wnet off).. Unfortunatly, im no programmer, and abit of an idiot when it comes to these things, so its going to take me some time to do this(also I want to do this to get rid of any mathematical errors I did the gap page all by HAND and I have spotted afew minor things as I have put it on the spreadsheet)I am willing to bet, if I take the total damage, over the total recasttime+casting+recovery time to get that abilities dps.. And then accumulate both for rangers and assassins.. It will show somewhere along the lines what many of us are seeing on parsings, dispite what lockeye says..I also want to add.. That there is far to much evidence for rangers rather than against.. It is really hard to just say "yea we are alright" when you see abilities like snaring shot that does 600 max damage for a m1, and expect 600 dps to passover, or snipers shot peak at 1.5kish dps assuming we land a half decent hit, when our counterpart can spike 15k dps with decapitate,or a 3s cast time on a 4k max damage(soft cap str) ability.. Rangers are not built to be able to spike the damage as high as summoners, brigands, assassins,wizards.. Its just not in the mechanics.The ONLY ability I am demanding having the damage boosted is snaring shot.. The rest are all cast time issues, I dont think it would make a huge diffrence in the overall ballance if our heavier hits dident have 3-5s cast times, and I dont think its to much to ask to have snaring shot do around 1ish damage rather than 600 tops. - If anyone can debate this point and win, they get a cookie if they can honestly make me believe that this is not the heart of the issue.

Ixnay · 08-01-2006, 02:06 AM

MystaSkratch wrote:

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

so you didn't get the bow eh?

How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy:

I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway...

Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! SMILEY

IllusiveThoughts · 08-01-2006, 02:13 AM

Ixnay wrote:

MystaSkratch wrote:

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

so you didn't get the bow eh?

How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy:

I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway...

Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items!

rofl!

MystaSkrat · 08-01-2006, 02:21 AM

Ixnay wrote:

Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items!

Haha I like it more where people aren't loot [Removed for Content] and do what's best for the raid/guild as a whole, not they're own personal desires. :smileyhappy: But I'm sure we all know not everyone feels that way.

Diern · 08-01-2006, 03:02 AM

Gareorn wrote:

Ixnay wrote:

As Ishbu has said, the guild's mind isn't closed and we don't discriminate against anyone. But every spot on our roster must be earned and justified. If a Ranger was able to prove he could parse up with our Assassin, Conjuror or Necro, I bet a Ranger spot would reopen. But until then, we've already given tryouts and compared weeks worth of parses against all current encounters, and based on those findings, are entitled to conclude that no ranger in EQ2 can produce damage as high as any of our dps members.

I'd also like to point out that my guild doesn't have and isn't looking to recruit a SK, but not just because of dps. In the case of SKs, another type of fighter can tank any encounter in game better, and SK dps is at the bottom of all fighters. Plus, SK utility skills are fluff at best and not very useful. They are the worst tanks, the worst fighter dps, and have the least special skills. There is nothing they do that would ever cause anyone to say "darn, we could have beat that encounter if we only had a SK."

Dang! I have Ranger for a main and an SK for my Primary Alt.:smileyvery-happy:

So wrong, and perfect example of why the communities opinion of SK is so warped. We may not be the best tank, but a SK is all about finesse and a well played one can do very well.Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker.

vinterskugge · 08-01-2006, 03:41 AM

Diernes wrote:

Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker.

In that case you obviously haven't seen a berserker played correctly.

08-01-2006, 12:12 AM	#421
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	FiftyK wrote:Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid. Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close. __________________ Ishbu!

08-01-2006, 12:22 AM	#422
Spite Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 222	Pinski wrote: Valderen wrote: The only way to know would be to have Lockeye play in a ranger in a raid guild that would post their parse...personally I think that's asking too much. So, basically you're saying that we have no possibility of showing an un-biased parse because we're asking for too much in the fact that we want the class fixed? The other thing is this, the "perceived" issue with ranger DPS is apparent only in the top 5% guild that do everything to maximize DPS...where getting a class that could do 5DPS more then another is enough to ignore the one that does less. Should the entire game be balanced for those top 5% raiding guild? The difference is not 5DPS. We're talking about, roughly, a 10% dps difference. That is not a small difference. But anyway, shouldn't the game be balanced at every level? Plus, there are ways to improve Ranger DPS in high-end raids, while not making them unbeatable in DPS. Even if we over look the 10% DPS deficit (more like 15% IMHO but its all good), the class still bring nothing else to the table. Rangers as a whole package leave a lot to be desired raid wise. Thats the WHOLE point and The All-Seeing Lockeye posting raw numbers means IMHO he too is blind to it.

08-01-2006, 12:25 AM	#424
Spite Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 222	Ishboozor wrote: FiftyK wrote: Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid. Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close. Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average.

08-01-2006, 12:31 AM	#425
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	FiftyK wrote: Ishboozor wrote: FiftyK wrote: Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid. Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close. Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. My mistake then. __________________ Ishbu!

08-01-2006, 12:33 AM	#426
Spite Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 222	Ishboozor wrote: FiftyK wrote: Ishboozor wrote: FiftyK wrote: Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid. Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close. Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. My mistake then. NP. I would have specified T7 BTW if i could have thought of one.

08-01-2006, 12:23 AM	#423
griffit General Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 48	As the thread progresses the more it seems likely that Rangers can parse up there with the other big boys on a raid given certain conditions.1) That they have a decent bow. Which are as rare as hens teeth.2) That they purchase appropriate tier arrows. Which will cost an arm and a leg, still no 'long promised' fix from SOE3) If you only look at boss fights. Our CA timers are more unevenly spaced compared to our Assassin brethern (a fact that I can personally attest too as a ranger that betrayed) so if you look at the overall picture we have much more variation in dps from fight to fight compared to an Assassin. That variation is where I believe a lot of that supposed 20-30% dps difference comes in. I might do the same dps or better for one fight and then be 3rd or 4th spot for the next 2 fights while I wait for CA to become active.4) They work like a dog for it.Which still begs the question, why play a Ranger? Other than some sense of sentimentality towards the class itself like that expressed by Jay42? If you can play an Assassin and get the similar too or better dps with less work and without the dependance on expensive arrows then whats the point? Or play a Swashy or Brig who have been shown to do similar dps given the gear and effort put in, who also have the utility.Perhaps giving us the Easy dps button might not be the answer. However there are somethings that DEFINTELY need to be addressed. The whole arrow issue, we know SOE is looking into it. They have been looking into it for the better part of 2006, with no hope of seeing a fix until EoF release in November or beyond, that is one long long wait. Also as other mentioned, bow drops. 2h dps drops pretty regularly, their range equivalents are extremely hard to find. Which definitely effects ranger dps since the effort put into getting a decent raid bow is so Bob damned high. I think the couple hundred responses to this thread show that there is indeed a problem, it might not require a DPS boost but there definitely factors that need to be taken into account and addressed.

08-01-2006, 12:43 AM	#427
Straylig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 174	Ishboo:In that group setup, I keep forgetting that the Templar is actually an Inquisitor now. I knew him so long as a Templar so that he'll always seem that way in my mind when I think of him. My bad. (My fourth mistake ever. Give a guy a break.)

08-01-2006, 12:44 AM	#428
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	Inquisitor makes a lot more sense __________________ Ishbu!

08-01-2006, 12:57 AM	#429
Longtrang Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 24	Can I get in Lockeye's guild???? Please Please!!!

08-01-2006, 01:22 AM	#430
xenocyst Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 162	Just wanted to throw my 2c into this since it correlates what several people are saying. In my previous guild we had a ranger who parses very very high. In my current guild we do not. So as a fun little experiment we had my friend from my old guild play one of our rangers for a bit to see what happened. Interestingly enough, in general he was not able to put up the numbers that he and I both expected. The buff situation was poor in that particular raid but did not differer dramatically from normal raid groups on his character. So what happened? I think it's true that as skill scales up rangers start to fall behind.People have talked about damage potential and I think that's the key to the ranger problem. I'm really glad rangers parse so well in some cases, but after a parse of ~900 my friend sent me the following tell: "I get 1500 doing the exact same thing normally" so the potential just isn't scaling. __________________

08-01-2006, 01:22 AM	#431
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	Demlar wrote: Ok, spent all day reading through this thread and I think most people reading this can agree that the best results we could hope to show for where a Ranger really stands is wait to see what numbers come out of Khalan running Axkiva for a Disso raid. You then get folks who know what they are doing, in group setups for killing things quick and a very well equipped ranger. I do think Lore made one very valid point earlier. If you notice, a lot of the people agreeing and helping support the arguement that rangers in the high end raid environment are lacking, don't play rangers. I'd love to post parses and data from what I pull on raids but the info I have is incomplete. The guild I'm in doesn't have a raiding assassin and rarely has a conjurer on the raids. We do have a zerker, warlock and swashies that can match/beat me on dps a lot of the time though. The Zerker, when not tanking, beats me on DPS just from his ichorstrand alone, and I have the Ancient Sarnak bow from Venekor. Double attack is a wonderful thing I guess. lol I agree, an unbiased fully fabled / mastered ranger played by a long time ranger from another top guild, mixed in with a guild that min/maxes will flush out any arguments one could make otherwise about ranger dps issues. I also dont have a full sample in the guild I raid with since there is no assasin, no brigand, we do however raid with a nec/conj/wizzie(me)/warlock/zerker/bruiser that can parse 2k. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 07-31-2006 02:24 PM __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

08-01-2006, 01:28 AM	#432
Crychtonn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 684	Outside of the whole lack of good bow issue there is one other area that stands out like a sore thumb in why assassins, swashy and brigands can jump ahead of rangers so easy. It all comes back to that evil P word Proc's. Melee classes like these get crap loads of proc's that add to their DPS while rangers get very few. I keep meaning to but haven't done it yet make a list of all the numorous buff proc's all the classes in game give out. Listing all the ones that only work on melee attacks vs those that work on either melee or ranged. I'd love to compare in the ones that only work on ranged attacks but ya they don't exist. Assassins and rouges get Proc's galore when setup in raids. While rangers get Ember Seed and the one dirge buff that proc's on bows (forget the name).

08-01-2006, 01:29 AM	#433
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	It should be noted that Axkiva does not have a t7 fabled bow because we have always had bad luck and simply cant get them to drop.For example, guild on our server has killed tarinax 3times and has 2 bows and 1 satchel from him.We have killed tarinax every week since april and have 1 bow and 1 satchel. __________________ Ishbu!

08-01-2006, 01:38 AM	#434
Dirtgirl Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 320	The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask..... And Venekor dropped the scout BP for me, but alas no bow. __________________ Yeah, I died a lot.

08-01-2006, 01:40 AM	#435
Ixnay Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 539	Dirtgirl wrote: The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask..... My, what a coincidence! __________________ Elleffgee (LFG), Chaotic Legion, Kithicor EQ2Flames.com Got Flames?

08-01-2006, 01:41 AM	#436
Ranvarenaya Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 60	We have had poor luck on that bow also, in the first 15(i think) kills we got 1 satchel and zero bows. I got mine on 16 and our second on 17. Still, no character in our guild has a bow with a DR over 100 while we have piles of 100+ dr 2handers rot week after week. __________________ Ranvarenaya 70 Ranger, 65 Carpenter of Second Dawn Shimshon 38 Paladin, 61 Armorer Delilah 39 Fury, 60 Tailor Zorathustra 59 Conjuror, 69 Sage Astarte 43 Mystic, 60 Jeweler Nevazar 33 Wizard, 62 Alchemist

08-01-2006, 01:42 AM	#437
MystaSkrat Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 693	Ixnay wrote: Dirtgirl wrote: The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask..... My, what a coincidence! For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s. __________________

08-01-2006, 01:46 AM	#438
Katsugen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 95	If you're gonna through up raw numbers that YOU know are gonna have people questioning them, then you have to give some sort or background on them. I think the real problem I'm having is that we aren't seeing high end raid parses w/ rangers that look anything like what Lockeye showed. If the system is not broken then I would expect to see other parses that look like that. Just in this thread alone I can find multiple parses with Necro/Conj/Zerkers/Assassins/Wizzy's/Warlock/Swashys/Brigands all at the top. If what you say is true then I would expect to have seen just as many parses w/ rangers up at the top. Where are those parses? I'm anxiously awaiting some guild that can show me a bunch of parses where the ranger is trouncing everyone. That's what Lockeye's data suggests, and that what I want to see. Then I'll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go back to trying to get better. - Katsugen

08-01-2006, 01:47 AM	#439
Snarks Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 557	MystaSkratch wrote: Ixnay wrote: Dirtgirl wrote: The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask..... My, what a coincidence! For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s. /glances at the sarnak war bow rotting in bank yeah, I think we need more jewelry kthx __________________

08-01-2006, 01:51 AM	#440
Dirtgirl Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 320	snarkteeth wrote: /glances at the sarnak war bow rotting in bank yeah, I think we need more jewelry kthx Why Snark? Why do you have to torment me like this? __________________ Yeah, I died a lot.

08-01-2006, 01:51 AM	#441
Gareorn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,144	FiftyK wrote: Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. It wasn't a question. It was an attempt at humor.:smileyhappy: __________________ Leader of the vast right-wing conspiricy... Hiding from the world's smartest woman in a bunker under a Hooter's restaurant.

08-01-2006, 02:02 AM	#442
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	MystaSkratch wrote: Ixnay wrote: Dirtgirl wrote: The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask..... My, what a coincidence! For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s. so you didn't get the bow eh? __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

08-01-2006, 02:02 AM	#443
MystaSkrat Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 693	IllusiveThoughts wrote: so you didn't get the bow eh? How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy: I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway... __________________

08-01-2006, 02:04 AM	#444
Dirtgirl Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 320	No. I'll just say I wasn't in the zone at that particular point and leave it at that. __________________ Yeah, I died a lot.

08-01-2006, 02:04 AM	#445
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Katsugen wrote: If you're gonna through up raw numbers that YOU know are gonna have people questioning them, then you have to give some sort or background on them. I think the real problem I'm having is that we aren't seeing high end raid parses w/ rangers that look anything like what Lockeye showed. If the system is not broken then I would expect to see other parses that look like that. Just in this thread alone I can find multiple parses with Necro/Conj/Zerkers/Assassins/Wizzy's/Warlock/Swashys/Brigands all at the top. If what you say is true then I would expect to have seen just as many parses w/ rangers up at the top. Where are those parses? I'm anxiously awaiting some guild that can show me a bunch of parses where the ranger is trouncing everyone. That's what Lockeye's data suggests, and that what I want to see. Then I'll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go back to trying to get better. - Katsugen Ummm... Like mine? Or.. Maybe like sokolovs? Ummm.. Both of us agree on the same thing.. Rangers are underpowred.. What we DONT agree on, is the extent of this game.. his gap shows a 12% diffrence while the assassin isent using there killing mark thingie, and assuming that mark makes up 10-15%ish of the assassin dps, this gap widens by that much more... My thing is alot more confusing, but show about a 20-30% diffrence in dps..I am currently working on getting all of that compiled into spreadsheets, and I am currently working on a new one with recycletime/dps.. But, the way I did it isent your basic stuff to put on a spreadsheet, I used crits where there would be crits and regular damage where there would be regular damage (assuming focus aim wnet off).. Unfortunatly, im no programmer, and abit of an idiot when it comes to these things, so its going to take me some time to do this(also I want to do this to get rid of any mathematical errors I did the gap page all by HAND and I have spotted afew minor things as I have put it on the spreadsheet)I am willing to bet, if I take the total damage, over the total recasttime+casting+recovery time to get that abilities dps.. And then accumulate both for rangers and assassins.. It will show somewhere along the lines what many of us are seeing on parsings, dispite what lockeye says..I also want to add.. That there is far to much evidence for rangers rather than against.. It is really hard to just say "yea we are alright" when you see abilities like snaring shot that does 600 max damage for a m1, and expect 600 dps to passover, or snipers shot peak at 1.5kish dps assuming we land a half decent hit, when our counterpart can spike 15k dps with decapitate,or a 3s cast time on a 4k max damage(soft cap str) ability.. Rangers are not built to be able to spike the damage as high as summoners, brigands, assassins,wizards.. Its just not in the mechanics.The ONLY ability I am demanding having the damage boosted is snaring shot.. The rest are all cast time issues, I dont think it would make a huge diffrence in the overall ballance if our heavier hits dident have 3-5s cast times, and I dont think its to much to ask to have snaring shot do around 1ish damage rather than 600 tops. - If anyone can debate this point and win, they get a cookie if they can honestly make me believe that this is not the heart of the issue. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

08-01-2006, 02:06 AM	#446
Ixnay Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 539	MystaSkratch wrote: IllusiveThoughts wrote: so you didn't get the bow eh? How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy: I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway... Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! __________________ Elleffgee (LFG), Chaotic Legion, Kithicor EQ2Flames.com Got Flames?

08-01-2006, 02:13 AM	#447
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	Ixnay wrote: MystaSkratch wrote: IllusiveThoughts wrote: so you didn't get the bow eh? How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy: I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway... Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! rofl! __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

08-01-2006, 02:21 AM	#448
MystaSkrat Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 693	Ixnay wrote: Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! Haha I like it more where people aren't loot [Removed for Content] and do what's best for the raid/guild as a whole, not they're own personal desires. :smileyhappy: But I'm sure we all know not everyone feels that way. __________________

08-01-2006, 03:02 AM	#449
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Gareorn wrote: Ixnay wrote: As Ishbu has said, the guild's mind isn't closed and we don't discriminate against anyone. But every spot on our roster must be earned and justified. If a Ranger was able to prove he could parse up with our Assassin, Conjuror or Necro, I bet a Ranger spot would reopen. But until then, we've already given tryouts and compared weeks worth of parses against all current encounters, and based on those findings, are entitled to conclude that no ranger in EQ2 can produce damage as high as any of our dps members. I'd also like to point out that my guild doesn't have and isn't looking to recruit a SK, but not just because of dps. In the case of SKs, another type of fighter can tank any encounter in game better, and SK dps is at the bottom of all fighters. Plus, SK utility skills are fluff at best and not very useful. They are the worst tanks, the worst fighter dps, and have the least special skills. There is nothing they do that would ever cause anyone to say "darn, we could have beat that encounter if we only had a SK." Dang! I have Ranger for a main and an SK for my Primary Alt.:smileyvery-happy: So wrong, and perfect example of why the communities opinion of SK is so warped. We may not be the best tank, but a SK is all about finesse and a well played one can do very well.Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker.

08-01-2006, 03:41 AM	#450
vinterskugge Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 696	Diernes wrote: Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker. In that case you obviously haven't seen a berserker played correctly.