The gap, how big where it lies.. Talking dps here.

LoreLady · 07-18-2006, 08:18 PM

Ok, I want to explain my thinking and a summary on why I did this.. My first thing is, the harder I button mash the less dps I seem to do when I try hard to get my best, I end up being the bottom. Effort should equal damage, unfortunatly the way our skills our set it doesnt allow for that. Second, I want to mention that peak dps in raids for rangers is 1400, assassins 2000, wizards 2000. The way I did this is so that people can start from the top and read there way down to how I got my answers. I took each and every damage art and added the totals, then categorized the totals then compared the total damages. Then, I went down to cast times to see the diffrence. If we were ballanced these things would equal themselves out. Like, if there is 50% less damage in the total damages there should be a 50% faster time to cast inorder to get equal damage.Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 28296 47624 63671 ---- 2445(assa) 9246(assa) 8749(rng)In theroy these totals are ballanced, one will jump ontop of another. This is with snipers shot, decapitate, and mark excluded.With mark--Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 32101 51429 67476 --- --- --- 6250 89807 4944This is with mark, to give a greater handle on where assassins actually are, unfortunatly the likely hood of an assassin doing max damage with mark in a group or solo setting is slim, so I have chosen to seperate these.Ranger 14.4|20.5 18.8|26.5 31.8|45.5Asssassin 8.8(10.7) 12.6(17.4) 22.6(30.5)(all abilities included) ---- --- 5.6s 38%diff 6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(2 SMILEY

3.7 26% 1.4 7.4% 1.3 4.1When I say all abilities included snipers shot is still taken out of here.. The first number is poise on both ends, the second is without poise. ON the second number after the | is without poise. Now, first diffrence in numbers is with both classes with poise, the second diffrence in numbers is rangers with poise assassins without poise. So this is showing that even though rangers are getting aa's, these aa's are just to put a ranger with an assassin who doesnt have any aa's.. What needs to be changed, is all our frontal melee abilities need to be changed and boosted to start with - shocking thrust, rip, lunging joust. And then another small boost to either recasts, or damage to archery abilities. And a large increase in the ability snaring shot. It should be easy for a ranger to achieve 1k dps without influence of other classes. The way things should be, the harder I button mash the higher my damage should go.I was talking to sokolov on the phone the other day, the main thing he dident seem to understand is why I did things in a set time with damage, mathimatical time on the second part. The reasoning for that, is that there is a diffrence in that time I cant say that all abilities used will add up to 30 seconds for the first interval, and then 1 min for the next. The amount of time passed to use all the abilities once is diffrent between the two of them so I cannot give st intervals. What I can do however, is add both times up. Then add or subtract them from the total damages from the percentage of the time diffrence. The shorter the time diffrence, the less diffrence in damage, the greater the time diffrence the greater the diffrence in damage. So if I had 600 damage in 1 minute, and then 610 damage in a minute 10. Both would even out to 600.

Ranger--- Archery--- 30s 1m Amazing shot(1m) 1515 -- (crit) (1969) -- 3938 Counfounding arrow(30s) 1249 2872 (crit) (1623) --- 4495 Culling of the Weak(1m) 1832 -- (crit) (2381) -- 4762 Devitalizing Arrow(1m 1581 -- 4110(crit) (2055) Precise shot(20s) 882 2028 I (crit) (1146) -- 3174 Tripple volly(1m) 2412 -- (crit) (3135) -- 6270 ----- Sub total 9471 -Focusaim- 12312 14440 39061

Snaring shot (10s) 533 1599 3198 Vieled Fire(1m 30s) 3886 -- -- --- Subtotal 16731 19925 42259(above ranged abilities with crits included) ---

Melee Arrow Rip(20s) 802 1604 2406Emberstrike(10s) 1181 3543 7086Longblade(10s) 852 2556 5112Lunging Joust(20s) 815 1630 2445Rangers blade(1m) 2754 -- 5508Shocking Thrust(10s) 588 1764 3348 --- Subtotal 6992 16325 25905

Dot Mortal Reminder (30s) 2128 --- 4256 Hawkdive - No actual figures. --- Subtotal 2128 --- 4256

Area of effect Rain of arrows (2min) 4336 --- ---(4targets) 17344(8targets) 34688 Selection(1min) 1705 --- 3410(4targets) 6820 -- 13630-8targets- 13640 --- 27280--- Subtotal 6041 --- 7746(4 targets) 24164 --- 30974(8 targets) 48328 --- 61968--- Snipers shot 9224 ---

-------------------------------------------Total 25851 With crit+snipers ---

Assassin -- Range -- Assasiling Blast(20s) 882 1764 2646Contrived Weapon(20s) 902 1804 2706Neck shot(1m) 2492 -- 4984Spitting asp(1m) 2016 -- 4032 --- Subtotal 6292 3568 14368---

DoTs Deadly Wound(20s)(24d) 1431 2862 4293Flowing Wound(30s)24d) 2063 4126 6189Scraping Blow(10s)(12d) 713 2139 4278 --- Subtotal 4207 9127 14760---

--- Melee --- Crippling strike(1m) 1604 -- 3208Eviscerate(1m) 2754 -- 5508Finishing blow(45s) 1504 -- 3008Freezing strike(1m) 1672 -- 3344Jugular(1m) 1957 -- 3914Killing Blade(2m) 6335 -- --Masked attack(10s) 852 2556 5112Puncture Blade(10s) 1299 3897 7794---Subtotal 17977 24430 38223---

AE's Slaughtersault(1m) 1876 --- 3752(4 Targets) 7504 --- 15008(8 Targets) 15005 --- 300016 Cloaked Assault(30s)12d) 2312 4624 6936(4 Targets) 9248 18496 27744(8 Targets) 18496 36992 55488 --- Subtotal 4188 6936 10688(4targets) 16752 35248 42752(8targets) 33504 70493 355504

--- Misc --- Decapitate(10m) 14454(excluded) Malignant Mark(30s) 3805(excluded)

------------------------- Total 28296----------Comparison of totals ---- ---Range ---Ranger 16731 19925 42259Assassin 6292 9860 14368 --- -- --- 10439(rang) 10065(rng) 27891(rng)--- Melee---Ranger 6992 16325 25905Assassin 17977 24430 38223 -- --- -- 10985(assa) 8105(assa) 12318(assa)---DoT's --- Ranger 2128 2128 4256Assassin 4207 13334 14760 --- --- --- 2079(assa) 11206(assa) 10504(assa)---AoE's(single target) ---Ranger 6041 6041 7746Assassin 4188 6936 10688 ---- --- --- 1853(ranger) 895(assa) 2942(assa)------------------- Total Diffrence(AE's excluded and misc excluded)--------------- Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 28296 47624 63671 ---- 2445(assa) 9246(assa) 8749(rng) With mark--Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 32101 51429 67476 --- --- --- 6250 89807 4944

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Actuall Cast times involved------------------------------ IAmazing shot 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Arrow rip 0.3(.5) 2 0.6 3 0.9Confounding Arrow 0.7(1) 2 1.4 3 2.1Culling of the Weak 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Emberstrike 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8Devitalizing arrow 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Longblade 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8Lunging joust 0.3(.5) 2 0.6 3 0.9Mortal Reminder 0.3(.5) 1 0.3 3 0.9Precise shot 0.7(1) 2 1.4 3 2.1 <---(stupid mistake)Rain of arrows 1.4(2) 1 1.4 1 1.4Rangers blade 0.3(.5) 1 0.3 2 0.6Selection 2.2(3) 1 2.2 2 4.4Shocking thrust 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8Snipers shot 3.7(5) 1 -- --Tripple Volley 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Vield fire 2.2(3) 1 2.2 1 2.2Focus aim 0.7(1) 1 0.7 2 1.4 --- 14.4(20.5) 18.8(26.5) 31.1(45.5) --- 18.1(25.5)(with snipers shot) --- Assailing blast 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2) 3 2.1(3) Cloaked assault 0.7(1) 1 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2)Contrived Weapon 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2) 3 2.1(3)Crippling strike 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Deadly wound 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1) 3 0.9(1.5)Eviscerate 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Finishing blow 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Flowing wound 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1) 3 0.9(1.5)Freezing strike 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Jugular 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Malignant mark 0.1(.2) 2 0.2(.4) 3 0.4(0.6)Killing blade 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5)Masked attack 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)Neck shot 1.4(2) 1 1.4(2) 2 2.8(4)Puncture blade 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)Slaughtersault 1.1(1.5) 2 2.2(3) 3 3.3(4.5)Spitting asp 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1(1.5) 2 2.2(3)Scrapping blow 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3) --- 9.1 12.6 22.6 ---Ranger 14.4|20.5 18.8|26.5 31.8|45.5Asssassin 8.8(10.7) 12.6(17.4) 22.6(30.5)(all abilities included) ---- --- 5.6s 38%diff 6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(2 SMILEY

3.7 26% 1.4 7.4% 1.3 4.1%

Lets take the base cast times, then add it to the totals of the first total to the ranger total in casttime.(assuming both have poise)Ranger 18612 26097 52142 Assassin 32101 51429 67476 --- --- --- 13489 25332 15334

You can also use this to make a pattern, there is only one change here and thats at the 2-4 min mark with the assassins killing blade. You will see the longer the fight is, the bigger the gap is.. I also wish to point out that 6292(assa dot) + 17977(assa melee) = 24269. And Ranger ranged 16731.24269 - 16731 = 7538 diffrence. To dispell any myths about rangers being able to maintain ranged dps and stay on the top of there game.I want everyone to remember.. That these values should be similar to similar damage even without poise.. Poise should be a bonus, not bringing a 50 aa'd ranger to a 0 aa'd assassin. The problem isent in our AA's. It is in our class basics. No more editing, additions, tweaks, you name it to this. If you want to expand it, do at your own time. I just wanted to write this out to show there is a problem and where it lies. And if this thread gets locked for any reason IE: flamming, dev trying to do a "cover up", insaulting assassins or ranger, etc.. I will do my best to annoy you!All credit for this goes to Mortred on the Befallen server.(Person posting this)

Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-18-2006 09:22 AM- Found a mistake in cast times, total time is lowered by .7.. - I likely was looking at number of times or hit the wrong button etc... Things happen.. Most of the mistakes I found were was spacing all this junk.

Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-20-2006 12:59 PM

Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-21-2006 07:59 AM

LoreLady · 07-18-2006, 08:34 PM

Ok, now that I have gotten that out of the way.. Now to get rid of a large misconception in every rangers eyes.. AE's.---AoE's(single target)--- Inst 30s 1min 1m30s 2minRanger 6041 6041 7746 7746 13787Assassin 4188 6936 10688 13000 17188 ---- --- 1853 895 29421705 Nat 4336 rain 1876slaughter1m 2312cloaked (30sSee where im going with this?The next person who says rain is the oposite of snipers shot gets a rotten tomato to the face. It will have green mold that will smell and wont leave, I stopped using arrows a LONG time ago these work much MUCH better.

Dojoc · 07-18-2006, 08:55 PM

really good post, hopefully a dev can use this data to fix/revamp our styles to make them on par with our coussins, thx

Balerius · 07-18-2006, 09:41 PM

Thanks for taking the time to compile this. I'm glad you posted it. It pretty much reinforces what I've said for some time.

I've long said that assassins out-dps rangers by more than 300 dps. If you take your 60 sec totals, the assassin has 15,334 more dps than the ranger. This is over 250 dps more. So there's some correlation.

Of course, your figures are "book values" based on only what the ranger & assassin bring to the table alone. The reality is that in raid situations when one adds various raid buffs, etc., the gap grows larger, not smaller and the disparity between assassin and ranger dps can get to 400-500 dps. And that, my friends, is why most high level raid guilds won't accept any new ranger members.

There is nothing fancy required to redress this imbalance. We don't really need anything "new". It's simply a matter of increasing the damage that most of our CAs do by increasing their base damage, reducing cast times, reducing recast times, or some of all of these.

SoE over-nerfed us in LU20. They made some effort to correct this in LU21. But they simply didn't understand the degree to which our pre-LU20 dps was dependent on procs and therefore failed to realize how inadequate our basic CAs were. The LU21 tweaks they made were inadequate. I said it at the time (in the face of some who felt that the LU21 tweaks were all we needed to restore us to equivalency to assassins in dps). Well, I've been since proved right about our being over-nerfed in LU20 and that LU21 tweaks were inadequate.

I really don't understand why SoE doesn't fix this now. Surely SoE knows the imbalance exists. The playerbase sure as heck knows the imbalance exists and would not be shocked to see the needed fixes made.

Jayad · 07-18-2006, 09:50 PM

There's probably a few flaws in the analysis (like not taking into account Focus and procs) but broadly speaking I think it's correct. I hope some developers pay attention.

Wilin · 07-18-2006, 10:48 PM

This jives with what I've been seeing in raids. Our best assassin is usually #1 dps occasionally getting outpaced slightly by a conjuror, necro, or swashie. Our 2 rangers don't even come close on average. They both have the bow out of Labs but record anywhere from 100 to 600 less dps than our best assassin. They still end up being about 200 dps less than our other assassin who has mostly crafted gear.

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 01:31 AM

The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us.Sad but true.

Balerius · 07-19-2006, 03:12 AM

Fennir wrote:
The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us.

Sad but true.

If assassins were far and away out-dps'ing all other classes, that might be true. But they aren't.

Currently swashbucklers, berzerkers, brigands, monks, brawlers, conjurers, necros, will all out-dps rangers and so all fall somewhere within the range between rangers and assassins. Some are close to assassins and some are only a about 100-200 dps more than rangers. So there really isn't much room to nerf assassins.

And it would be nonsensical to do it anyway given assassin's "pure dps" role vs. those other class' utility. Of course, given the fact that rangers have even less utility than assassins, arguably the least utility of any class in the game, it points even more strongly to the shortcomings of ranger dps.

LoreLady · 07-19-2006, 03:16 AM

Balerius wrote:

Fennir wrote:The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us.Sad but true. HELLO MR NEGATIVE!

If assassins were far and away out-dps'ing all other classes, that might be true. But they aren't.

Currently swashbucklers, berzerkers, brigands, monks, brawlers, conjurers, necros, will all out-dps rangers and so all fall somewhere within the range between rangers and assassins. Some are close to assassins and some are only a about 100-200 dps more than rangers. So there really isn't much room to nerf assassins.

And it would be nonsensical to do it anyway given assassin's "pure dps" role vs. those other class' utility. Of course, given the fact that rangers have even less utility than assassins, arguably the least utility of any class in the game, it points even more strongly to the shortcomings of ranger dps. /agree

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 03:17 AM

OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope.

LoreLady · 07-19-2006, 07:01 AM

Fennir wrote:OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope.

What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help? Btw, NO WHERE did I add snipers shot/decap in there - to controversial.. Just what damage each of them do.I know I attempted a thing like this earlier, but this is a much more accurate reading of where things stand. This was at 428 str for both, with perfectionist for both. Even if you add 150 dmg to each ranger ability (30% chance to proc), and 50 dmg to each assassin ability (10% proc) - you still fall short by ALOT on the ranger end..

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 07:43 AM

LoreLady wrote:
Fennir wrote:OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope.
What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help?

I stopped complaining when they fixed my class. I do wicked DPS no matter what anyone says. I have a lot of fun playing my character.Maybe the devs want assassins to do slightly more damage than us because they don't get to do it all from ranged? I don't know. It's not as big of a deal as the disparities used to be.

LoreLady · 07-19-2006, 07:46 AM

Fennir wrote:
LoreLady wrote:
Fennir wrote:OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope.
What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help?
I stopped complaining when they fixed my class. I do wicked DPS no matter what anyone says. I have a lot of fun playing my character.Maybe the devs want assassins to do slightly more damage than us because they don't get to do it all from ranged? I don't know. It's not as big of a deal as the disparities used to be.

Dont spread misconceptions. I dont want another becka walking in saying that we do 100% of our damage out of joust range.

Sokolov · 07-19-2006, 08:30 AM

I don't see the problem. I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers. Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown. The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use? Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical. I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 08:40 AM

LoreLady wrote:
Dont spread misconceptions. I dont want another becka walking in saying that we do 100% of our damage out of joust range.

I'm not going to censor myself for the sake of [Removed for Content], sorry.

Mirdo · 07-19-2006, 01:46 PM

I have to agree there is a discrepancy towards the high end of raids. Our parses show Rangers to be 10% to 20% behind other DPS classes (and some classes that are a DPS/utility mix).

To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information. To conistantly achieve the highest DPS we have to joust too. If we don't do the jousting we fall even further behind other classes in damage output.

The problem seems to get worse the more a guild fine tunes it's DPS groups. In my previous guild I was top 1 or 2 every parse in labs and Lyceum. In my new guild raiding up to DT, I am doing 200 DPS more (on average) due to better tuned groups, but am typically much lower on the parses.

Higher DR bows are not necessarily the answer. That higher DR affects all classes using the bow.

I think lowered recast time and possibly a slight boost to CA's is the right way to go - at least this uses existing mechanics. Whatever solution is used it has to provide consistant results and preferably easy to implement.

The high end guilds are not leaving Rangers out on a whim. They would only leave out a class because it brings less to a raid than other classes. In the case of the Ranger we bring lower DPS than any number of classes and no truly useful raid utility.

SoE didn't know what to do with Rangers for much of EQlive and it seems they have not been able to learn from their mistakes and mainain an adequate class vision and balance in this game.

I love the idea of a Ranger and will stick with mine here but should I switch games in the future I won't be playing another. Designers seem to like the idea of the class but never know what to do with it once implemented.

Mirdo.

Korb · 07-19-2006, 03:56 PM

Would be nice if they could add a spell/ca power reduction, casting time reduction, or something along those lines as a buff for us. Would be great to have us along then... :smileysad:

LoreLady · 07-19-2006, 04:34 PM

Sokolov wrote:
I don't see the problem. I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers. Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown. The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use? Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical. I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM

Because, while our total damages for all our abilities are ballanced. The time factor to that damage is not, if it takes you 1 min to do 100k damage, and someone can do the same damage in 30 seconds. Even though that the abilities total are the same, the realistic damage isent.

Saihung23 · 07-19-2006, 05:08 PM

When I looked at your post Lorelady...I really was trying to read the parses...but then my eyes unfocused a bit...and I saw a SAILBOAT!

Thats really neat...how did you do that? Cant wait for the next one SMILEY

griffit · 07-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Well if you feel strongly about it post it on one of the main forums and try to get the issue addressed in the upcoming August 3rd Stratics Dev chat. Edit - just read thread under combat Forum. Perhaps it would be good to bring it up on Stratics!

Message Edited by griffiths on 07-19-2006 09:32 AM

Sokolov · 07-19-2006, 05:41 PM

LoreLady wrote:
Sokolov wrote:
I don't see the problem. I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers. Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown. The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use? Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical. I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM
Because, while our total damages for all our abilities are ballanced. The time factor to that damage is not, if it takes you 1 min to do 100k damage, and someone can do the same damage in 30 seconds. Even though that the abilities total are the same, the realistic damage isent.

That is not what the data shows.The data shows that the Ranger does MORE damage in 1 minute than the Assassin. Note that in the Actual Cast time chart, the number of casts possible in each period of 30s and 60s have already been accounted for - which I assume is reflected by the damage total listed in the 30s and 60s column in the damage portion.Thus, we conclude that the Ranger CA damage output is greater than the Assassin's CA damage in 60s by approximately 5000 damage - when cast and recast timers are taken into consideration (assuming the data above is correct, of course).It is also understood that the Ranger spends more casting time in that time period then the Assassin and autoattack damage is not included in this analysis.I would also note that the cast time chart has errors favoring the Assassin. The Assassin's actual cast time for 30s is 14.1 and for 60s is 24.7, not 12.6 and 22.6 The Ranger's cast time for 30s is 18.2s and for 60s is 31.1. Making the difference 22.5% at 30s (instead of the stated 32%) and only 20.6% at 60s (instead of the stated 28%).

In any case, I know people have been complimenting the data and it's true that stuff like this takes time and effort to compile. But I hope anyone looking at it, after showing appreciation, critically examines the data but more importantly the analysis portion. Maybe you still disagree with my intrepretation, but I wholly believe that the analysis provided in the OP is illogical and flawed as there is no reason to adjust the total damage based on casting timers when the timers (both cast and recast) were already previously incorporated in compiling the damage totals in the first place.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-19-2006 09:21 AM

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 06:54 PM

Mirdo wrote:
To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information.

Uh, no it's not.Yes, we have to joust in to use some melee CAs. On the other hand, assassins have to be in melee range 90% of the time. We really don't.I love how easy it is for people to ignore arguments they don't like... just because they don't like them.

Serventof Wrath · 07-19-2006, 07:34 PM

Casting timers this and recast timers that.... it all sounds like math and I do enough of that at work.

The way I see it I would be super happy if they changed just 3 of our CAs:

Triple: Change it to auto ranged damage x 1.1 for the 1st arrow x 1.3 for the 2nd and x 1.5 for the 3rd at Adept I. Upgrades could increase the multiplier.

Precise: Same thing as Triple only with heat damage.

Stream of Arrows: Fires 1 arrow every 1.5 sec for 30 sec at normal autoranged damage.

Can anyone of you spreadsheet/database conspiracy theorists honestly tell me what impact those 3 changes would have on our dps. I can say without doing the math it would atleast justify the cost of the multiple arrows when using those CAs.

The only other thing I would ask SOE to do it to fix the DR issue with bows.

They said they wanted to increase the DR on longbows to be online with other 2H weapons. Great but since fighters can use the Longbow it helps them more with double attack AA then it did us. So make 1 more change to bows:

Long Bow: DR = to 2H weapons, long delay, long range, only usable by SCOUTS. (I can't use a 2H sword why can they use a Long Bow)

Short Bow: DR = to DW weapons, fast delay, short range, only usable by SCOUTS. (Assassins have a tone of melee stuff why would they really want to stand back at 45m. So make these attractive stat wise for our evil half)

Bow: DR = to 1H weapons, average delay, range between long and short bow ranges, usable by any class that can currently use a bow. Add this change and it gives fighters the ability to still pull with a bow but reduces their effectiveness to stand back and dps at range.

just my 2cp

Lesca · 07-19-2006, 07:51 PM

A little boost to some of our ranged CAs would be greatly appreciated I think. As things stand now, you can get more damage out of getting an Illusionist to haste you, sticking Killing Instinct on and going AFK to auto attack for 30 seconds than you can from stringing the CAs together (though thanks to Poise I can get off just about every non-stealthed ranged attack during the course of Focus which does some good damage).

Take Triple Volley... Obviously it relies on all three shots connecting, as the damage from the third arrow is greater than that from the first, and when you add them all up it should come out at something respectable. When each shot had a chance to proc, it was devastating. I've got a screenshot buried somewhere of my combat window where I'd fired Triple Shot (or whatever the previous one was called). After the fight, I expanded the window to display only the damage from that one CA, start to finish, and I kid you not, with Quick Shot procs, poison procs, gleaming strikes etc, the window is 3/4 height of my screen. Insane damage, and was just about guaranteed to get me killed unless the tank knew what he was doing (God bless Amends, I say). Now it's just the first shot that has a chance to proc anything... More often than not it doesn't... And we're left with something that's a tad unremarkable. Meh.

Works fine for regular grouping, as the fights don't last long enough for any disparity between classes to really show up. It's raiding that you start to notice. It's looking better now I've maxed out ranged crits, but a small increase in initial damage to some of our attacks would make me the happiest little Ranger in all of Splitpaw.

Mirdo · 07-19-2006, 08:06 PM

Fennir wrote:
Mirdo wrote:
To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information.
Uh, no it's not.Yes, we have to joust in to use some melee CAs. On the other hand, assassins have to be in melee range 90% of the time. We really don't.I love how easy it is for people to ignore arguments they don't like... just because they don't like them.

That looks self-contradictory to me. You say it's not necassary to joust to maintain high dps and then it is to use our melee CA's? What am I missing? And yes Assassins have to be in melee range a lot of the time but have dots to throw up for moving out and then enough ranged attacks to maintain DPS while at range. Also, AoE's fire instantly so it's not like their (or our) joust has to be very long. My point was being made to people that insist our DPS should be lower becuase we don't have to joust - we do to maintain it. How much jousting depends on the timing of the mob aoe. Maybe you have a much better bow than me or our other Ranger and can sit back and ranged auto in the time between focus and stealth attacks. I know if I do that my DPS drops. Mirdo. Edited for typos

Message Edited by Mirdo on 07-19-2006 05:07 PM

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 08:14 PM

How do you read "Yes, we have to joust in to use some melee CAs" as "We don't have to joust."?Assassins = 90% melee, 10% ranged.Rangers = 90% ranged, 10% melee.I get your 'point.' You refuse to get mine, though. I never said "WE SHOULD BE LOWER DPS BCUZ OF THIS OMG", I said:"Maybe the devs want us to be lower DPS than assasins because we do most of our damage at range. I don't know." I don't conclude anything until the devs tell me so.

Anyways, this really isn't that hard to comprehend. Assassins stay next to the mob most of the time and joust OUT. We stand away from the mob and joust IN. Assassins always have to contend with damage shields, AOEs, and ripostes if the mob turns. We really don't.

Fennir · 07-19-2006, 08:19 PM

Anyways, forget it. We're broken beyond all belief. Woe is the ranger.Maybe I'll post again next year. /wave

Jayad · 07-19-2006, 10:40 PM

If jousting were a big negative, you would see a drop in assassin's DPS on AE fights. Which isn't the case. They do almost their full DPS in such a fight, as measured by me on many raids (about 5% difference). So if it's not a real negative to have to joust, why should Rangers have something taken away in return for doing their main DPS at ranged? That whole argument is nonsensical because *both* classes have to "joust" normally. Rangers can't do their maximum DPS just staying at ranged, and Assassins can't do their maximum DPS staying in melee.

You could easily make the argument that ammo cost as a penalty would offset any "benefit" the Rangers have. There's also the fact that many proc items will not work at ranged. By the same logic, you could say all casters should do less dps because they don't have to joust.

It's very simple why jousting is not a real DPS hit. Ranged and melee auto-attack are not too far apart, so there's no auto-attack penalty for switching. (You lose your procs for a short while based on which the offensive stance works with, that's all) The real "meat" of our damage, both assassins and rangers, comes from Combat Arts. Recast timers are the #1 influence on how much our Combat Arts can do over a period of time. Both classes can use all of their combat arts pretty quickly, much faster than recast timers take, ranged or melee. Therefore, jousting is not a huge factor because you can lay down all your damage within the recast timer window no matter if you joust or not.

Or to think of it another way - jousting doesn't "pause" an assassin from doing their damage for long, if at all. If jousting were an issue with doing damage, it would not make sense to do it normally to maximize our DPS.

It would be very different if jousting actually forced people away long enough to "miss" CA potential but that's just not the case. Jousts are quick events. They are a skill you have to learn, that's all.

LordAng · 07-20-2006, 01:26 AM

Ok, for some time i been arguing that rangers dont need to be fixed. this is mostly due to the fact that i am in a high-end, hardcore raiding guild and there is not a class in the game that i cant outdps on any given fight. there is a necro in the guild that i have competition with and a wizard on occasion, but for the most part, it is no problem staying in the #1 or 2 spot. assasins have never been a threat to me, same with brigs or swashes and ive had the opportunity to play with various people playing each class so im assuming that its not just luck that i can parse like i do or that everyone else just has no idea how to play their charaters.

im not sure what kind of numbers most rangers put out. from what ive seen its usually somewhere from 800-1.1k DPS. and yea, usually somewhere lower on the parse list. 1.1k DPS is below my average minimum DPS in a fight though, even in longer fights where assasins are supposed to overtake ranger DPS, i can pretty easily stay over 1.2-1.3k dps. On AE fights, forget it, its lights out, usually 1.7-2.2k DPS. but overall, at least for the last month and a half-2 months (taking in considerations that the gear i have has affected dps), on a single target raid mob, my average is 1.3-1.6k. i have a few screenshots of parses if its required that i post in order for people to take me seriously (i dont have a great comp so i dont run parses or logs on my comp, i have other people parse for me), unfortunately i only have a few recent ones, so it wont be a good sample. ill have more later.

I guess my big question is: what exactly is everyone else putting out for DPS? im just fine with how i parse. i will gladly welcome any more improvements to ranger dps, but man, dps would soar.

i keep in mind that dps is all relative to how good the rest of your guild is EX: if your guild cranks out 18k dps and levels mobs in a minute flat, ranger dps is higher. what is most important is how you parse in respect to others in raids and how consistantly you can do it. parsers can be somewhat innaccurate depending on whos using them and where they are standing but if its consistant, you get the idea pretty well how you stand. its possible to take the top parse with 600 dps depending on the fight or 2.2k on others. I bring this up because regardless of the fight, i dont have problems keeping up with anyone; 30 seconds or 5 minutes.

I look at these posts with statistical analysis and arguments that say it is physically impossible for rangers to do what i do consistantly and i dont get it. i see everyone else saying rangers need more dps and i dont agree. maybe i am the one whos wrong, thats mainly why im wondering how everyone else is doing with their rangers. is it my AAs? i know for a fact that i use a very unconventional set-up when it comes to AAs; using INT as my main line and completely ignoring poise. My AAs are designed for procs and auto attacks, not CAs. I do have nice gear and masters, but i know im not the only one. so whats the deal with all the ranger DPS posts?

and on a side note: based on my guilds accomplishments raiding, its highly unlikely that its a coincidence that everyone else is just bad. i can tell you its fact that i play with some of the finest players eq2 has to offer.

Jayad · 07-20-2006, 01:45 AM

Well, I think it would be nice to hear the details of how you get there. At least it gives us disgruntled rangers something to try different. Maybe I'm missing something, and could improve my setup. At least based on what i see, I typically do 1000-1100 dps in groups, and on raids it's kind of in the 1100-1300 range, on an average raid. If I get a fabled bow and get mastered out, I have thought I could maybe get to 1400-1500 or so, using a decent raid setup where everybody does their job. Problem is, I know for a fact that 1400 is not hard to get for assassins who are excellent, yet unless all things are lined up perfectly it's about where we stop. For many raids, dpsers who get 1300-1400 is probably very good and acceptable - it's more than I do right now SMILEY but I still think it's harder for rangers to get there. And assassins can do more with the same level of gear and skills.

But I'm willing to look at maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like to hear more about how you get there, if you're willing to share.

Obviously I'm using "numbers" and it depends a lot on the setup, other players, debuffs, procs, etc. but I'm just using some ballparks here.

07-18-2006, 08:34 PM	#2
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Ok, now that I have gotten that out of the way.. Now to get rid of a large misconception in every rangers eyes.. AE's.---AoE's(single target)--- Inst 30s 1min 1m30s 2minRanger 6041 6041 7746 7746 13787Assassin 4188 6936 10688 13000 17188 ---- --- 1853 895 29421705 Nat 4336 rain 1876slaughter1m 2312cloaked (30sSee where im going with this?The next person who says rain is the oposite of snipers shot gets a rotten tomato to the face. It will have green mold that will smell and wont leave, I stopped using arrows a LONG time ago these work much MUCH better. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

07-18-2006, 10:48 PM	#6
Wilin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,151	This jives with what I've been seeing in raids. Our best assassin is usually #1 dps occasionally getting outpaced slightly by a conjuror, necro, or swashie. Our 2 rangers don't even come close on average. They both have the bow out of Labs but record anywhere from 100 to 600 less dps than our best assassin. They still end up being about 200 dps less than our other assassin who has mostly crafted gear. __________________

07-19-2006, 01:31 AM	#7
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us.Sad but true. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 03:12 AM	#8
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Fennir wrote: The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us. Sad but true. If assassins were far and away out-dps'ing all other classes, that might be true. But they aren't. Currently swashbucklers, berzerkers, brigands, monks, brawlers, conjurers, necros, will all out-dps rangers and so all fall somewhere within the range between rangers and assassins. Some are close to assassins and some are only a about 100-200 dps more than rangers. So there really isn't much room to nerf assassins. And it would be nonsensical to do it anyway given assassin's "pure dps" role vs. those other class' utility. Of course, given the fact that rangers have even less utility than assassins, arguably the least utility of any class in the game, it points even more strongly to the shortcomings of ranger dps.

07-19-2006, 03:16 AM	#9
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Balerius wrote: Fennir wrote:The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us.Sad but true. HELLO MR NEGATIVE! If assassins were far and away out-dps'ing all other classes, that might be true. But they aren't. Currently swashbucklers, berzerkers, brigands, monks, brawlers, conjurers, necros, will all out-dps rangers and so all fall somewhere within the range between rangers and assassins. Some are close to assassins and some are only a about 100-200 dps more than rangers. So there really isn't much room to nerf assassins. And it would be nonsensical to do it anyway given assassin's "pure dps" role vs. those other class' utility. Of course, given the fact that rangers have even less utility than assassins, arguably the least utility of any class in the game, it points even more strongly to the shortcomings of ranger dps. /agree __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

07-18-2006, 08:18 PM	#1
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Ok, I want to explain my thinking and a summary on why I did this.. My first thing is, the harder I button mash the less dps I seem to do when I try hard to get my best, I end up being the bottom. Effort should equal damage, unfortunatly the way our skills our set it doesnt allow for that. Second, I want to mention that peak dps in raids for rangers is 1400, assassins 2000, wizards 2000. The way I did this is so that people can start from the top and read there way down to how I got my answers. I took each and every damage art and added the totals, then categorized the totals then compared the total damages. Then, I went down to cast times to see the diffrence. If we were ballanced these things would equal themselves out. Like, if there is 50% less damage in the total damages there should be a 50% faster time to cast inorder to get equal damage.Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 28296 47624 63671 ---- 2445(assa) 9246(assa) 8749(rng)In theroy these totals are ballanced, one will jump ontop of another. This is with snipers shot, decapitate, and mark excluded.With mark--Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 32101 51429 67476 --- --- --- 6250 89807 4944This is with mark, to give a greater handle on where assassins actually are, unfortunatly the likely hood of an assassin doing max damage with mark in a group or solo setting is slim, so I have chosen to seperate these.Ranger 14.4\|20.5 18.8\|26.5 31.8\|45.5Asssassin 8.8(10.7) 12.6(17.4) 22.6(30.5)(all abilities included) ---- --- 5.6s 38%diff 6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(2 3.7 26% 1.4 7.4% 1.3 4.1When I say all abilities included snipers shot is still taken out of here.. The first number is poise on both ends, the second is without poise. ON the second number after the \| is without poise. Now, first diffrence in numbers is with both classes with poise, the second diffrence in numbers is rangers with poise assassins without poise. So this is showing that even though rangers are getting aa's, these aa's are just to put a ranger with an assassin who doesnt have any aa's.. What needs to be changed, is all our frontal melee abilities need to be changed and boosted to start with - shocking thrust, rip, lunging joust. And then another small boost to either recasts, or damage to archery abilities. And a large increase in the ability snaring shot. It should be easy for a ranger to achieve 1k dps without influence of other classes. The way things should be, the harder I button mash the higher my damage should go.I was talking to sokolov on the phone the other day, the main thing he dident seem to understand is why I did things in a set time with damage, mathimatical time on the second part. The reasoning for that, is that there is a diffrence in that time I cant say that all abilities used will add up to 30 seconds for the first interval, and then 1 min for the next. The amount of time passed to use all the abilities once is diffrent between the two of them so I cannot give st intervals. What I can do however, is add both times up. Then add or subtract them from the total damages from the percentage of the time diffrence. The shorter the time diffrence, the less diffrence in damage, the greater the time diffrence the greater the diffrence in damage. So if I had 600 damage in 1 minute, and then 610 damage in a minute 10. Both would even out to 600. Ranger--- Archery--- 30s 1m Amazing shot(1m) 1515 -- (crit) (1969) -- 3938 Counfounding arrow(30s) 1249 2872 (crit) (1623) --- 4495 Culling of the Weak(1m) 1832 -- (crit) (2381) -- 4762 Devitalizing Arrow(1m 1581 -- 4110(crit) (2055) Precise shot(20s) 882 2028 I (crit) (1146) -- 3174 Tripple volly(1m) 2412 -- (crit) (3135) -- 6270 ----- Sub total 9471 -Focusaim- 12312 14440 39061 Snaring shot (10s) 533 1599 3198 Vieled Fire(1m 30s) 3886 -- -- --- Subtotal 16731 19925 42259(above ranged abilities with crits included) --- Melee Arrow Rip(20s) 802 1604 2406Emberstrike(10s) 1181 3543 7086Longblade(10s) 852 2556 5112Lunging Joust(20s) 815 1630 2445Rangers blade(1m) 2754 -- 5508Shocking Thrust(10s) 588 1764 3348 --- Subtotal 6992 16325 25905 Dot Mortal Reminder (30s) 2128 --- 4256 Hawkdive - No actual figures. --- Subtotal 2128 --- 4256 Area of effect Rain of arrows (2min) 4336 --- ---(4targets) 17344(8targets) 34688 Selection(1min) 1705 --- 3410(4targets) 6820 -- 13630-8targets- 13640 --- 27280--- Subtotal 6041 --- 7746(4 targets) 24164 --- 30974(8 targets) 48328 --- 61968--- Snipers shot 9224 --- -------------------------------------------Total 25851 With crit+snipers --- Assassin -- Range -- Assasiling Blast(20s) 882 1764 2646Contrived Weapon(20s) 902 1804 2706Neck shot(1m) 2492 -- 4984Spitting asp(1m) 2016 -- 4032 --- Subtotal 6292 3568 14368--- DoTs Deadly Wound(20s)(24d) 1431 2862 4293Flowing Wound(30s)24d) 2063 4126 6189Scraping Blow(10s)(12d) 713 2139 4278 --- Subtotal 4207 9127 14760--- --- Melee --- Crippling strike(1m) 1604 -- 3208Eviscerate(1m) 2754 -- 5508Finishing blow(45s) 1504 -- 3008Freezing strike(1m) 1672 -- 3344Jugular(1m) 1957 -- 3914Killing Blade(2m) 6335 -- --Masked attack(10s) 852 2556 5112Puncture Blade(10s) 1299 3897 7794---Subtotal 17977 24430 38223--- AE's Slaughtersault(1m) 1876 --- 3752(4 Targets) 7504 --- 15008(8 Targets) 15005 --- 300016 Cloaked Assault(30s)12d) 2312 4624 6936(4 Targets) 9248 18496 27744(8 Targets) 18496 36992 55488 --- Subtotal 4188 6936 10688(4targets) 16752 35248 42752(8targets) 33504 70493 355504 --- Misc --- Decapitate(10m) 14454(excluded) Malignant Mark(30s) 3805(excluded) ------------------------- Total 28296----------Comparison of totals ---- ---Range ---Ranger 16731 19925 42259Assassin 6292 9860 14368 --- -- --- 10439(rang) 10065(rng) 27891(rng)--- Melee---Ranger 6992 16325 25905Assassin 17977 24430 38223 -- --- -- 10985(assa) 8105(assa) 12318(assa)---DoT's --- Ranger 2128 2128 4256Assassin 4207 13334 14760 --- --- --- 2079(assa) 11206(assa) 10504(assa)---AoE's(single target) ---Ranger 6041 6041 7746Assassin 4188 6936 10688 ---- --- --- 1853(ranger) 895(assa) 2942(assa)------------------- Total Diffrence(AE's excluded and misc excluded)--------------- Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 28296 47624 63671 ---- 2445(assa) 9246(assa) 8749(rng) With mark--Ranger 25851 38378 72420Assassin 32101 51429 67476 --- --- --- 6250 89807 4944 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Actuall Cast times involved------------------------------ IAmazing shot 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Arrow rip 0.3(.5) 2 0.6 3 0.9Confounding Arrow 0.7(1) 2 1.4 3 2.1Culling of the Weak 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Emberstrike 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8Devitalizing arrow 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Longblade 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8Lunging joust 0.3(.5) 2 0.6 3 0.9Mortal Reminder 0.3(.5) 1 0.3 3 0.9Precise shot 0.7(1) 2 1.4 3 2.1 <---(stupid mistake)Rain of arrows 1.4(2) 1 1.4 1 1.4Rangers blade 0.3(.5) 1 0.3 2 0.6Selection 2.2(3) 1 2.2 2 4.4Shocking thrust 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8Snipers shot 3.7(5) 1 -- --Tripple Volley 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2Vield fire 2.2(3) 1 2.2 1 2.2Focus aim 0.7(1) 1 0.7 2 1.4 --- 14.4(20.5) 18.8(26.5) 31.1(45.5) --- 18.1(25.5)(with snipers shot) --- Assailing blast 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2) 3 2.1(3) Cloaked assault 0.7(1) 1 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2)Contrived Weapon 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2) 3 2.1(3)Crippling strike 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Deadly wound 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1) 3 0.9(1.5)Eviscerate 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Finishing blow 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Flowing wound 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1) 3 0.9(1.5)Freezing strike 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Jugular 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)Malignant mark 0.1(.2) 2 0.2(.4) 3 0.4(0.6)Killing blade 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5)Masked attack 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)Neck shot 1.4(2) 1 1.4(2) 2 2.8(4)Puncture blade 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)Slaughtersault 1.1(1.5) 2 2.2(3) 3 3.3(4.5)Spitting asp 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1(1.5) 2 2.2(3)Scrapping blow 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3) --- 9.1 12.6 22.6 ---Ranger 14.4\|20.5 18.8\|26.5 31.8\|45.5Asssassin 8.8(10.7) 12.6(17.4) 22.6(30.5)(all abilities included) ---- --- 5.6s 38%diff 6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(2 3.7 26% 1.4 7.4% 1.3 4.1% Lets take the base cast times, then add it to the totals of the first total to the ranger total in casttime.(assuming both have poise)Ranger 18612 26097 52142 Assassin 32101 51429 67476 --- --- --- 13489 25332 15334 You can also use this to make a pattern, there is only one change here and thats at the 2-4 min mark with the assassins killing blade. You will see the longer the fight is, the bigger the gap is.. I also wish to point out that 6292(assa dot) + 17977(assa melee) = 24269. And Ranger ranged 16731.24269 - 16731 = 7538 diffrence. To dispell any myths about rangers being able to maintain ranged dps and stay on the top of there game.I want everyone to remember.. That these values should be similar to similar damage even without poise.. Poise should be a bonus, not bringing a 50 aa'd ranger to a 0 aa'd assassin. The problem isent in our AA's. It is in our class basics. No more editing, additions, tweaks, you name it to this. If you want to expand it, do at your own time. I just wanted to write this out to show there is a problem and where it lies. And if this thread gets locked for any reason IE: flamming, dev trying to do a "cover up", insaulting assassins or ranger, etc.. I will do my best to annoy you!All credit for this goes to Mortred on the Befallen server.(Person posting this) Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-18-2006 09:22 AM- Found a mistake in cast times, total time is lowered by .7.. - I likely was looking at number of times or hit the wrong button etc... Things happen.. Most of the mistakes I found were was spacing all this junk. Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-20-2006 12:59 PM Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-21-2006 07:59 AM __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

07-18-2006, 08:55 PM	#3
Dojoc General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 252	really good post, hopefully a dev can use this data to fix/revamp our styles to make them on par with our coussins, thx

07-18-2006, 09:41 PM	#4
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Thanks for taking the time to compile this. I'm glad you posted it. It pretty much reinforces what I've said for some time. I've long said that assassins out-dps rangers by more than 300 dps. If you take your 60 sec totals, the assassin has 15,334 more dps than the ranger. This is over 250 dps more. So there's some correlation. Of course, your figures are "book values" based on only what the ranger & assassin bring to the table alone. The reality is that in raid situations when one adds various raid buffs, etc., the gap grows larger, not smaller and the disparity between assassin and ranger dps can get to 400-500 dps. And that, my friends, is why most high level raid guilds won't accept any new ranger members. There is nothing fancy required to redress this imbalance. We don't really need anything "new". It's simply a matter of increasing the damage that most of our CAs do by increasing their base damage, reducing cast times, reducing recast times, or some of all of these. SoE over-nerfed us in LU20. They made some effort to correct this in LU21. But they simply didn't understand the degree to which our pre-LU20 dps was dependent on procs and therefore failed to realize how inadequate our basic CAs were. The LU21 tweaks they made were inadequate. I said it at the time (in the face of some who felt that the LU21 tweaks were all we needed to restore us to equivalency to assassins in dps). Well, I've been since proved right about our being over-nerfed in LU20 and that LU21 tweaks were inadequate. I really don't understand why SoE doesn't fix this now. Surely SoE knows the imbalance exists. The playerbase sure as heck knows the imbalance exists and would not be shocked to see the needed fixes made.

07-18-2006, 09:50 PM	#5
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	There's probably a few flaws in the analysis (like not taking into account Focus and procs) but broadly speaking I think it's correct. I hope some developers pay attention.

07-19-2006, 03:17 AM	#10
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 07:01 AM	#11
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Fennir wrote:OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope. What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help? Btw, NO WHERE did I add snipers shot/decap in there - to controversial.. Just what damage each of them do.I know I attempted a thing like this earlier, but this is a much more accurate reading of where things stand. This was at 428 str for both, with perfectionist for both. Even if you add 150 dmg to each ranger ability (30% chance to proc), and 50 dmg to each assassin ability (10% proc) - you still fall short by ALOT on the ranger end.. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

07-19-2006, 07:43 AM	#12
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	LoreLady wrote: Fennir wrote:OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope. What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help? I stopped complaining when they fixed my class. I do wicked DPS no matter what anyone says. I have a lot of fun playing my character.Maybe the devs want assassins to do slightly more damage than us because they don't get to do it all from ranged? I don't know. It's not as big of a deal as the disparities used to be. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 07:46 AM	#13
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Fennir wrote: LoreLady wrote: Fennir wrote:OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope. What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help? I stopped complaining when they fixed my class. I do wicked DPS no matter what anyone says. I have a lot of fun playing my character.Maybe the devs want assassins to do slightly more damage than us because they don't get to do it all from ranged? I don't know. It's not as big of a deal as the disparities used to be. Dont spread misconceptions. I dont want another becka walking in saying that we do 100% of our damage out of joust range. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

07-19-2006, 08:30 AM	#14
Sokolov Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,357	I don't see the problem. I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers. Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown. The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use? Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical. I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can. Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM __________________ [] Sokolov - New Outriders [] [] Maridith(70 Defiler) Sokolov (70 Jeweler) Loklan(57 Zerker) Rebekah(47 Ranger) [] Healing Guide - Version 0.5 Fate has perfect wings

07-19-2006, 08:40 AM	#15
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	LoreLady wrote: Dont spread misconceptions. I dont want another becka walking in saying that we do 100% of our damage out of joust range. I'm not going to censor myself for the sake of [Removed for Content], sorry. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 01:46 PM	#16
Mirdo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 395	I have to agree there is a discrepancy towards the high end of raids. Our parses show Rangers to be 10% to 20% behind other DPS classes (and some classes that are a DPS/utility mix). To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information. To conistantly achieve the highest DPS we have to joust too. If we don't do the jousting we fall even further behind other classes in damage output. The problem seems to get worse the more a guild fine tunes it's DPS groups. In my previous guild I was top 1 or 2 every parse in labs and Lyceum. In my new guild raiding up to DT, I am doing 200 DPS more (on average) due to better tuned groups, but am typically much lower on the parses. Higher DR bows are not necessarily the answer. That higher DR affects all classes using the bow. I think lowered recast time and possibly a slight boost to CA's is the right way to go - at least this uses existing mechanics. Whatever solution is used it has to provide consistant results and preferably easy to implement. The high end guilds are not leaving Rangers out on a whim. They would only leave out a class because it brings less to a raid than other classes. In the case of the Ranger we bring lower DPS than any number of classes and no truly useful raid utility. SoE didn't know what to do with Rangers for much of EQlive and it seems they have not been able to learn from their mistakes and mainain an adequate class vision and balance in this game. I love the idea of a Ranger and will stick with mine here but should I switch games in the future I won't be playing another. Designers seem to like the idea of the class but never know what to do with it once implemented. Mirdo.

07-19-2006, 03:56 PM	#17
Korb General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 161	Would be nice if they could add a spell/ca power reduction, casting time reduction, or something along those lines as a buff for us. Would be great to have us along then... :smileysad:

07-19-2006, 04:34 PM	#18
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Sokolov wrote: I don't see the problem. I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers. Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown. The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use? Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical. I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can. Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM Because, while our total damages for all our abilities are ballanced. The time factor to that damage is not, if it takes you 1 min to do 100k damage, and someone can do the same damage in 30 seconds. Even though that the abilities total are the same, the realistic damage isent. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

07-19-2006, 05:08 PM	#19
Saihung23 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Delaware:Home of...Home of...we got stuff! Posts: 1,527	When I looked at your post Lorelady...I really was trying to read the parses...but then my eyes unfocused a bit...and I saw a SAILBOAT! Thats really neat...how did you do that? Cant wait for the next one __________________

07-19-2006, 05:18 PM	#20
griffit General Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 48	Well if you feel strongly about it post it on one of the main forums and try to get the issue addressed in the upcoming August 3rd Stratics Dev chat. Edit - just read thread under combat Forum. Perhaps it would be good to bring it up on Stratics! Message Edited by griffiths on 07-19-2006 09:32 AM

07-19-2006, 05:41 PM	#21
Sokolov Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,357	LoreLady wrote: Sokolov wrote: I don't see the problem. I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers. Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown. The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use? Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical. I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can. Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM Because, while our total damages for all our abilities are ballanced. The time factor to that damage is not, if it takes you 1 min to do 100k damage, and someone can do the same damage in 30 seconds. Even though that the abilities total are the same, the realistic damage isent. That is not what the data shows.The data shows that the Ranger does MORE damage in 1 minute than the Assassin. Note that in the Actual Cast time chart, the number of casts possible in each period of 30s and 60s have already been accounted for - which I assume is reflected by the damage total listed in the 30s and 60s column in the damage portion.Thus, we conclude that the Ranger CA damage output is greater than the Assassin's CA damage in 60s by approximately 5000 damage - when cast and recast timers are taken into consideration (assuming the data above is correct, of course).It is also understood that the Ranger spends more casting time in that time period then the Assassin and autoattack damage is not included in this analysis.I would also note that the cast time chart has errors favoring the Assassin. The Assassin's actual cast time for 30s is 14.1 and for 60s is 24.7, not 12.6 and 22.6 The Ranger's cast time for 30s is 18.2s and for 60s is 31.1. Making the difference 22.5% at 30s (instead of the stated 32%) and only 20.6% at 60s (instead of the stated 28%). In any case, I know people have been complimenting the data and it's true that stuff like this takes time and effort to compile. But I hope anyone looking at it, after showing appreciation, critically examines the data but more importantly the analysis portion. Maybe you still disagree with my intrepretation, but I wholly believe that the analysis provided in the OP is illogical and flawed as there is no reason to adjust the total damage based on casting timers when the timers (both cast and recast) were *already* previously incorporated in compiling the damage totals in the first place. Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-19-2006 09:21 AM __________________ [] Sokolov - New Outriders [] [] Maridith(70 Defiler) Sokolov (70 Jeweler) Loklan(57 Zerker) Rebekah(47 Ranger) [] Healing Guide - Version 0.5 Fate has perfect wings

07-19-2006, 06:54 PM	#22
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	Mirdo wrote: To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information. Uh, no it's not.Yes, we have to joust in to use some melee CAs. On the other hand, assassins have to be in melee range 90% of the time. We really don't.I love how easy it is for people to ignore arguments they don't like... just because they don't like them. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 07:34 PM	#23
Serventof Wrath Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 170	Casting timers this and recast timers that.... it all sounds like math and I do enough of that at work. The way I see it I would be super happy if they changed just 3 of our CAs: Triple: Change it to auto ranged damage x 1.1 for the 1st arrow x 1.3 for the 2nd and x 1.5 for the 3rd at Adept I. Upgrades could increase the multiplier. Precise: Same thing as Triple only with heat damage. Stream of Arrows: Fires 1 arrow every 1.5 sec for 30 sec at normal autoranged damage. Can anyone of you spreadsheet/database conspiracy theorists honestly tell me what impact those 3 changes would have on our dps. I can say without doing the math it would atleast justify the cost of the multiple arrows when using those CAs. The only other thing I would ask SOE to do it to fix the DR issue with bows. They said they wanted to increase the DR on longbows to be online with other 2H weapons. Great but since fighters can use the Longbow it helps them more with double attack AA then it did us. So make 1 more change to bows: Long Bow: DR = to 2H weapons, long delay, long range, only usable by SCOUTS. (I can't use a 2H sword why can they use a Long Bow) Short Bow: DR = to DW weapons, fast delay, short range, only usable by SCOUTS. (Assassins have a tone of melee stuff why would they really want to stand back at 45m. So make these attractive stat wise for our evil half) Bow: DR = to 1H weapons, average delay, range between long and short bow ranges, usable by any class that can currently use a bow. Add this change and it gives fighters the ability to still pull with a bow but reduces their effectiveness to stand back and dps at range. just my 2cp

07-19-2006, 07:51 PM	#24
Lesca Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	A little boost to some of our ranged CAs would be greatly appreciated I think. As things stand now, you can get more damage out of getting an Illusionist to haste you, sticking Killing Instinct on and going AFK to auto attack for 30 seconds than you can from stringing the CAs together (though thanks to Poise I can get off just about every non-stealthed ranged attack during the course of Focus which does some good damage). Take Triple Volley... Obviously it relies on all three shots connecting, as the damage from the third arrow is greater than that from the first, and when you add them all up it should come out at something respectable. When each shot had a chance to proc, it was devastating. I've got a screenshot buried somewhere of my combat window where I'd fired Triple Shot (or whatever the previous one was called). After the fight, I expanded the window to display only the damage from that one CA, start to finish, and I kid you not, with Quick Shot procs, poison procs, gleaming strikes etc, the window is 3/4 height of my screen. Insane damage, and was just about guaranteed to get me killed unless the tank knew what he was doing (God bless Amends, I say). Now it's just the first shot that has a chance to proc anything... More often than not it doesn't... And we're left with something that's a tad unremarkable. Meh. Works fine for regular grouping, as the fights don't last long enough for any disparity between classes to really show up. It's raiding that you start to notice. It's looking better now I've maxed out ranged crits, but a small increase in initial damage to some of our attacks would make me the happiest little Ranger in all of Splitpaw. __________________

07-19-2006, 08:06 PM	#25
Mirdo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 395	Fennir wrote: Mirdo wrote: To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information. Uh, no it's not.Yes, we have to joust in to use some melee CAs. On the other hand, assassins have to be in melee range 90% of the time. We really don't.I love how easy it is for people to ignore arguments they don't like... just because they don't like them. That looks self-contradictory to me. You say it's not necassary to joust to maintain high dps and then it is to use our melee CA's? What am I missing? And yes Assassins have to be in melee range a lot of the time but have dots to throw up for moving out and then enough ranged attacks to maintain DPS while at range. Also, AoE's fire instantly so it's not like their (or our) joust has to be very long. My point was being made to people that insist our DPS should be lower becuase we don't have to joust - we do to maintain it. How much jousting depends on the timing of the mob aoe. Maybe you have a much better bow than me or our other Ranger and can sit back and ranged auto in the time between focus and stealth attacks. I know if I do that my DPS drops. Mirdo. Edited for typos Message Edited by Mirdo on 07-19-2006 05:07 PM

07-19-2006, 08:14 PM	#26
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	How do you read "Yes, we have to joust in to use some melee CAs" as "We don't have to joust."?Assassins = 90% melee, 10% ranged.Rangers = 90% ranged, 10% melee.I get your 'point.' You refuse to get mine, though. I never said "WE SHOULD BE LOWER DPS BCUZ OF THIS OMG", I said:"Maybe the devs want us to be lower DPS than assasins because we do most of our damage at range. I don't know." I don't conclude anything until the devs tell me so. Anyways, this really isn't that hard to comprehend. Assassins stay next to the mob most of the time and joust OUT. We stand away from the mob and joust IN. Assassins always have to contend with damage shields, AOEs, and ripostes if the mob turns. We really don't. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 08:19 PM	#27
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	Anyways, forget it. We're broken beyond all belief. Woe is the ranger.Maybe I'll post again next year. /wave __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

07-19-2006, 10:40 PM	#28
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	If jousting were a big negative, you would see a drop in assassin's DPS on AE fights. Which isn't the case. They do almost their full DPS in such a fight, as measured by me on many raids (about 5% difference). So if it's not a real negative to have to joust, why should Rangers have something taken away in return for doing their main DPS at ranged? That whole argument is nonsensical because both classes have to "joust" normally. Rangers can't do their maximum DPS just staying at ranged, and Assassins can't do their maximum DPS staying in melee. You could easily make the argument that ammo cost as a penalty would offset any "benefit" the Rangers have. There's also the fact that many proc items will not work at ranged. By the same logic, you could say all casters should do less dps because they don't have to joust. It's very simple why jousting is not a real DPS hit. Ranged and melee auto-attack are not too far apart, so there's no auto-attack penalty for switching. (You lose your procs for a short while based on which the offensive stance works with, that's all) The real "meat" of our damage, both assassins and rangers, comes from Combat Arts. Recast timers are the #1 influence on how much our Combat Arts can do over a period of time. Both classes can use all of their combat arts pretty quickly, much faster than recast timers take, ranged or melee. Therefore, jousting is not a huge factor because you can lay down all your damage within the recast timer window no matter if you joust or not. Or to think of it another way - jousting doesn't "pause" an assassin from doing their damage for long, if at all. If jousting were an issue with doing damage, it would not make sense to do it normally to maximize our DPS. It would be very different if jousting actually forced people away long enough to "miss" CA potential but that's just not the case. Jousts are quick events. They are a skill you have to learn, that's all.

07-20-2006, 01:26 AM	#29
LordAng Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 45	Ok, for some time i been arguing that rangers dont need to be fixed. this is mostly due to the fact that i am in a high-end, hardcore raiding guild and there is not a class in the game that i cant outdps on any given fight. there is a necro in the guild that i have competition with and a wizard on occasion, but for the most part, it is no problem staying in the #1 or 2 spot. assasins have never been a threat to me, same with brigs or swashes and ive had the opportunity to play with various people playing each class so im assuming that its not just luck that i can parse like i do or that everyone else just has no idea how to play their charaters. im not sure what kind of numbers most rangers put out. from what ive seen its usually somewhere from 800-1.1k DPS. and yea, usually somewhere lower on the parse list. 1.1k DPS is below my average minimum DPS in a fight though, even in longer fights where assasins are supposed to overtake ranger DPS, i can pretty easily stay over 1.2-1.3k dps. On AE fights, forget it, its lights out, usually 1.7-2.2k DPS. but overall, at least for the last month and a half-2 months (taking in considerations that the gear i have has affected dps), on a single target raid mob, my average is 1.3-1.6k. i have a few screenshots of parses if its required that i post in order for people to take me seriously (i dont have a great comp so i dont run parses or logs on my comp, i have other people parse for me), unfortunately i only have a few recent ones, so it wont be a good sample. ill have more later. I guess my big question is: what exactly is everyone else putting out for DPS? im just fine with how i parse. i will gladly welcome any more improvements to ranger dps, but man, dps would soar. i keep in mind that dps is all relative to how good the rest of your guild is EX: if your guild cranks out 18k dps and levels mobs in a minute flat, ranger dps is higher. what is most important is how you parse in respect to others in raids and how consistantly you can do it. parsers can be somewhat innaccurate depending on whos using them and where they are standing but if its consistant, you get the idea pretty well how you stand. its possible to take the top parse with 600 dps depending on the fight or 2.2k on others. I bring this up because regardless of the fight, i dont have problems keeping up with anyone; 30 seconds or 5 minutes. I look at these posts with statistical analysis and arguments that say it is physically impossible for rangers to do what i do consistantly and i dont get it. i see everyone else saying rangers need more dps and i dont agree. maybe i am the one whos wrong, thats mainly why im wondering how everyone else is doing with their rangers. is it my AAs? i know for a fact that i use a very unconventional set-up when it comes to AAs; using INT as my main line and completely ignoring poise. My AAs are designed for procs and auto attacks, not CAs. I do have nice gear and masters, but i know im not the only one. so whats the deal with all the ranger DPS posts? and on a side note: based on my guilds accomplishments raiding, its highly unlikely that its a coincidence that everyone else is just bad. i can tell you its fact that i play with some of the finest players eq2 has to offer. __________________

07-20-2006, 01:45 AM	#30
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	Well, I think it would be nice to hear the details of how you get there. At least it gives us disgruntled rangers something to try different. Maybe I'm missing something, and could improve my setup. At least based on what i see, I typically do 1000-1100 dps in groups, and on raids it's kind of in the 1100-1300 range, on an average raid. If I get a fabled bow and get mastered out, I have thought I could maybe get to 1400-1500 or so, using a decent raid setup where everybody does their job. Problem is, I know for a fact that 1400 is not hard to get for assassins who are excellent, yet unless all things are lined up perfectly it's about where we stop. For many raids, dpsers who get 1300-1400 is probably very good and acceptable - it's more than I do right now but I still think it's harder for rangers to get there. And assassins can do more with the same level of gear and skills. But I'm willing to look at maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like to hear more about how you get there, if you're willing to share. Obviously I'm using "numbers" and it depends a lot on the setup, other players, debuffs, procs, etc. but I'm just using some ballparks here.