Raid group set up?

Nsko · 05-20-2006, 12:25 AM

Im looking for a bit of advice on group makeup for raids. Basically on our raids the rangers usually just get tossed in a group with the swashy/assassin and a monk for haste if we are lucky, if we arent lucky we get nothing hehe. All the group optimization is geared away from us. I am trying to change that, but I dont want to make any wrong or inefficient suggestions.If you guys could request a class or 2 to be in your group during raids, for buffs and procs, what would you choose?What would your optimum group makeup be?Thanks ahead of time for any help SMILEY

Star · 05-20-2006, 12:43 AM

Zerker gives STR and Rage.

Wizzie gives STR and Proc.

Warlocks gives a Proc.

Bruiser gives +DPS.

Monks give Haste.

Those are the main ones I get grouped with and look for buffs from. SMILEY

Fennir · 05-20-2006, 12:52 AM

i enjoy fury and conjuror... if i can convince the fury to put vim on me and not the conjuror =)

Gareorn · 05-20-2006, 01:17 AM

They are rare, but I also like to have a Troub/Dirge in my group.

Deml · 05-20-2006, 01:24 AM

Inquisitors are nice for healing and +DPS. Illusionist for haste if you don't have a troub to spare.

Prandtl · 05-20-2006, 01:24 AM

AUUUGHHHHH the empty message bug strikes!

I am a bard fanatic. Love em in my group! And they stay crunchy in milk, too

also, any class with a nice str buff: wizzies, zerkers, etc.

Message Edited by Prandtl on 05-19-2006 02:26 PM

TofuPatty · 05-20-2006, 03:30 AM

Coercers have a really pretty +dps buff as well, I believe the master is 65%. The 3 that make me the happiest are: Coercer: 65% dps buff, mana regen. Inquisitor: dps/hp buff, they can also stifle themselves to give group haste. Zerker: Str and procced haste/dps. I'm usually in a group with those 3 and a bruiser, the bruiser providing another group wide dps buff as well. With that setup I'm at capped str, capped dps and will cap out haste from procs when they go off.

Balerius · 05-20-2006, 03:36 AM

Nskoba wrote:
Im looking for a bit of advice on group makeup for raids. Basically on our raids the rangers usually just get tossed in a group with the swashy/assassin and a monk for haste if we are lucky, if we arent lucky we get nothing hehe. All the group optimization is geared away from us. I am trying to change that, but I dont want to make any wrong or inefficient suggestions.

If you guys could request a class or 2 to be in your group during raids, for buffs and procs, what would you choose?

What would your optimum group makeup be?

Thanks ahead of time for any help

There is no single "optimum" group. Or at least not one that is realistic.

Your best bet is to examine the buffs of each class and determine which ones would be beneficial to you. Then ensure that if grouped with that class that you do, in fact, get those buffs. About the only classes that I can think of that offer no "buff-type" benefit to you in a group would be a guardian, swash/brigand, and assassin.

Now don't get me wrong, a good guild will experiment with various group makeups until it arrives at a menu of options to maximize dps, etc. Remember, it's not just you, but the raid dps that needs to be maximized. And you are part of the raid dps so should have your dps factored into the group makeups. If done right, you will generally see a pattern emerging of players/classes that you will generally be grouped with. If the group organization in your guild "is being geared away from you" or you are being just "tossed in a group", then your guild doesn't have a clue and will not likely fare well in any truly high end encounter.

As your post indicates, you realize that as a ranger you have your "inherent dps" and your "raid dps". The same is true for every other class in your raid. The two concepts are quite different and I think that difference often leads to miscommunication in posts about whether ranger dps is "very good" or merely "OK". In a raid makeup designed to maximize raid dps, a ranger's dps will be merely OK when compared to the other classes on the raid. If raid makeup is not designed to maximize raid dps, then a ranger's dps will either be very good compared to other classes or very bad compared to other classes...depending on which way the raid leader screws up the groups.

Jayad · 05-20-2006, 05:14 AM

Anything that bumps DPS mods, procs, and INT. I usually have already maxed out haste and STR in nearly any raid group. Depending on the raid, you also might need certain resist buffs. Coercer has the best DPS buff. Vim is really nice from a Fury if your casters already have capped INT.

Our assassin brethren often get put in the MT group but usually Rangers get put with a troubie, zerker, warlock, etc.

If you have masses of thing to kill (i.e. PPTR), getting the fireseed line buff from conjurors is really nice. With the new normalization of procs based on times, and that Rangers are usually haste-maxxed, there's good argument for it to be put on a Ranger over most other classes. (Haste does not change the calculated proc rate, only base casting time or delay)

TofuPatty · 05-20-2006, 09:34 AM

Just as a followup - I think a lot depends on what classes are available and raid all the time in your guild to go into a melee dps group and if they're a enough buffers for melee dps, if you don't get pushed into the 4th group of overflow caster/melee dps etc. Haste is actually more an issue to cap out for me than dps mod, but that is largely because of who I raid with, can see dps being a bigger issue if the classes I'm around were differant. Pushing INT for proc damage would be great for me as would a dirge or troub to spare, but they always go to MT or caster groups, and I'm blessed by having a coercer to spare for the melee dps group intstead of the MT group for the +hate buff. Setting up a melee dps group with whatever is free and can be spared is probably at least as far as rangers are concerned DPS mod, str if it is not capped, haste and INT for proc damage. Haste is easier to cap for rangers siince we can self buff haste, STR we can get close to cap but have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard time capping by ourselves since we have no way to self buff it, DPS mod and INT are much harder for us to cap out, though it depends on who is available and whatnot. I'm usually capped on STR and DPS mod, for me capping haste and INT is much harder.

Stormhawk · 05-20-2006, 10:35 AM

My normal raid group is a Troub, Inquis, Wizard, Assassin, Brawler / Nuker / Another Ranger

StealthM0 · 05-20-2006, 01:52 PM

After the ranger Id go....

Monk

Troub

Healer type

Backuptank (zerker)

Assassin

That would be my ideal group, in case the BT wasn't required Id throw in another monk. Monks arent bad dps in groups either, and the haste buff just helps do that much more (same with troub).

The haste is nice cause my dps caps at 100% on two abilities (killing instinct, and focus aim) the former master 1, the latter master 2 choice. Being hasted while having those abilities in use is DEADLY. Add in the cowl of the pathfinder for increased crit chance and your avg. autoattack is 1.5k+

Message Edited by StealthM0de on 05-20-2006 02:53 AM

Kiori · 05-20-2006, 06:51 PM

I usually wind up dps healer with my inq on raids for the following reasons26% dps boost( melee ) 1 conc per( usually 2 toons, have to kill a group buff for more, but being ranged, with rangers there is less risk with this )damage proc 5% chance to proc around 320 divine damage( can also debuff this for around 950 )Fanaticism: 50% haste boost, +77 int, 8.4% recovery reduction( downside, this stifles me, but with ranged dps this is far less risky )Cleric final aa, int line, divine recovery: 33% recovery reduction, casting times reduced by 50% for 24 secsI have yet to get it, I would like to try the following for my dps groupRangers x 3, dirge, coercer and myself, not sure how it would work out, but sure would like to try, if the rangers were not jousting, I could much spot heal till things were stable, debuff, await the brig to dispatch, then cast dr and follow it up with fanaticismLol apologies for this looking messy, until today I have not posted in some time.

Gareorn · 05-20-2006, 11:38 PM

That would be an awesome group setup.

Inq's rock. I wish there were more of you around. Just for fun, I rolled a DE Inq. He's just a baby still, but man, is he fun to play.

Serventof Wrath · 05-25-2006, 11:03 PM

I always beg to be in a group with:

Wiz = STR buff

Zerker = STR buff

monk = Haste and group FD

The group FD helps on the repair bills SMILEY

Rahmn · 05-26-2006, 01:23 AM

Go with any class that can give you a +DPS, buff. Don't worry too much about haste since we have our own haste buff. During raids I usually roll with a troub, brigand, a spare healer, zerker and a summoner.

Jayad · 05-26-2006, 03:22 AM

STR is easy to max out along with AGI. Best to get +DPS from coercer, inquis, etc. and also procs from one of the mage classes (fireseed from conjuror, warlock and wizard procs) They do help improve dps. Troubies are great to group with but I believe they are more valuable to the casting groups.

Mirdo · 05-26-2006, 10:34 AM

I'm lucky enough to get a Troubador, Wizard, Assassin, Inquisitor + Zerker or Bruiser usually.

If you are in a casual raid guild, you have to deal with what's available to you rather than build perfect DPS groups. If we had another dirge they would sit in our group, freeing up the troub for our mainly caster group - but that's not the case.

As others have said, you are looking for +DPS mods, procs, haste and STR and INT buffs. Any class that can give you those will help. Also, troubador group hate reduction is nice to have.

Mirdo.

schla · 05-26-2006, 12:11 PM

I always lobby my guild raid leader to be in group with Inquis (dps buff and that AA speedhead spell...Fanatism??(I think) Coercer (awesome haste)/Dirge (just always nice to have around) Monk/Serker as tank dps dps dps have had my best results dps-wise in that setup so far

Message Edited by schlamo on 05-26-2006 01:13 AM

TofuPatty · 05-26-2006, 12:43 PM

Know what's kinda sad cleric-wise? A raid only needs 1 templar for the MT group max, any other clerics inquisitors beat templars hands down because they can buff melee dps groups out the wazoo, while all a templar can really do in a non-MT group is heal, and not as effectively outside the MT group as other priest classes.

Jayad · 05-26-2006, 01:17 PM

Templars are very useful in the MA group if it's different from the MT group. But yeah templars could use better buffs - so could several classes.

05-20-2006, 12:43 AM	#2
Star Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Zerker gives STR and Rage. Wizzie gives STR and Proc. Warlocks gives a Proc. Bruiser gives +DPS. Monks give Haste. Those are the main ones I get grouped with and look for buffs from. __________________

05-20-2006, 12:52 AM	#3
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	i enjoy fury and conjuror... if i can convince the fury to put vim on me and not the conjuror =) __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

05-20-2006, 01:17 AM	#4
Gareorn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,144	They are rare, but I also like to have a Troub/Dirge in my group. __________________ Leader of the vast right-wing conspiricy... Hiding from the world's smartest woman in a bunker under a Hooter's restaurant.

05-20-2006, 01:24 AM	#5
Deml Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 324	Inquisitors are nice for healing and +DPS. Illusionist for haste if you don't have a troub to spare. __________________

05-20-2006, 01:24 AM	#6
Prandtl Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 474	AUUUGHHHHH the empty message bug strikes! I am a bard fanatic. Love em in my group! And they stay crunchy in milk, too also, any class with a nice str buff: wizzies, zerkers, etc. Message Edited by Prandtl on 05-19-2006 02:26 PM __________________

05-20-2006, 12:25 AM	#1
Nsko Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	Im looking for a bit of advice on group makeup for raids. Basically on our raids the rangers usually just get tossed in a group with the swashy/assassin and a monk for haste if we are lucky, if we arent lucky we get nothing hehe. All the group optimization is geared away from us. I am trying to change that, but I dont want to make any wrong or inefficient suggestions.If you guys could request a class or 2 to be in your group during raids, for buffs and procs, what would you choose?What would your optimum group makeup be?Thanks ahead of time for any help

05-20-2006, 03:30 AM	#7
TofuPatty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Coercers have a really pretty +dps buff as well, I believe the master is 65%. The 3 that make me the happiest are: Coercer: 65% dps buff, mana regen. Inquisitor: dps/hp buff, they can also stifle themselves to give group haste. Zerker: Str and procced haste/dps. I'm usually in a group with those 3 and a bruiser, the bruiser providing another group wide dps buff as well. With that setup I'm at capped str, capped dps and will cap out haste from procs when they go off.

05-20-2006, 03:36 AM	#8
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Nskoba wrote: Im looking for a bit of advice on group makeup for raids. Basically on our raids the rangers usually just get tossed in a group with the swashy/assassin and a monk for haste if we are lucky, if we arent lucky we get nothing hehe. All the group optimization is geared away from us. I am trying to change that, but I dont want to make any wrong or inefficient suggestions. If you guys could request a class or 2 to be in your group during raids, for buffs and procs, what would you choose? What would your optimum group makeup be? Thanks ahead of time for any help There is no single "optimum" group. Or at least not one that is realistic. Your best bet is to examine the buffs of each class and determine which ones would be beneficial to you. Then ensure that if grouped with that class that you do, in fact, get those buffs. About the only classes that I can think of that offer no "buff-type" benefit to you in a group would be a guardian, swash/brigand, and assassin. Now don't get me wrong, a good guild will experiment with various group makeups until it arrives at a menu of options to maximize dps, etc. Remember, it's not just you, but the raid dps that needs to be maximized. And you are part of the raid dps so should have your dps factored into the group makeups. If done right, you will generally see a pattern emerging of players/classes that you will generally be grouped with. If the group organization in your guild "is being geared away from you" or you are being just "tossed in a group", then your guild doesn't have a clue and will not likely fare well in any truly high end encounter. As your post indicates, you realize that as a ranger you have your "inherent dps" and your "raid dps". The same is true for every other class in your raid. The two concepts are quite different and I think that difference often leads to miscommunication in posts about whether ranger dps is "very good" or merely "OK". In a raid makeup designed to maximize raid dps, a ranger's dps will be merely OK when compared to the other classes on the raid. If raid makeup is not designed to maximize raid dps, then a ranger's dps will either be very good compared to other classes or very bad compared to other classes...depending on which way the raid leader screws up the groups.

05-20-2006, 05:14 AM	#9
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	Anything that bumps DPS mods, procs, and INT. I usually have already maxed out haste and STR in nearly any raid group. Depending on the raid, you also might need certain resist buffs. Coercer has the best DPS buff. Vim is really nice from a Fury if your casters already have capped INT. Our assassin brethren often get put in the MT group but usually Rangers get put with a troubie, zerker, warlock, etc. If you have masses of thing to kill (i.e. PPTR), getting the fireseed line buff from conjurors is really nice. With the new normalization of procs based on times, and that Rangers are usually haste-maxxed, there's good argument for it to be put on a Ranger over most other classes. (Haste does not change the calculated proc rate, only base casting time or delay)

05-20-2006, 09:34 AM	#10
TofuPatty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Just as a followup - I think a lot depends on what classes are available and raid all the time in your guild to go into a melee dps group and if they're a enough buffers for melee dps, if you don't get pushed into the 4th group of overflow caster/melee dps etc. Haste is actually more an issue to cap out for me than dps mod, but that is largely because of who I raid with, can see dps being a bigger issue if the classes I'm around were differant. Pushing INT for proc damage would be great for me as would a dirge or troub to spare, but they always go to MT or caster groups, and I'm blessed by having a coercer to spare for the melee dps group intstead of the MT group for the +hate buff. Setting up a melee dps group with whatever is free and can be spared is probably at least as far as rangers are concerned DPS mod, str if it is not capped, haste and INT for proc damage. Haste is easier to cap for rangers siince we can self buff haste, STR we can get close to cap but have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard time capping by ourselves since we have no way to self buff it, DPS mod and INT are much harder for us to cap out, though it depends on who is available and whatnot. I'm usually capped on STR and DPS mod, for me capping haste and INT is much harder.

05-20-2006, 10:35 AM	#11
Stormhawk Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 121	My normal raid group is a Troub, Inquis, Wizard, Assassin, Brawler / Nuker / Another Ranger

05-20-2006, 01:52 PM	#12
StealthM0 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Baltimore, Md Posts: 375	After the ranger Id go.... Monk Troub Healer type Backuptank (zerker) Assassin That would be my ideal group, in case the BT wasn't required Id throw in another monk. Monks arent bad dps in groups either, and the haste buff just helps do that much more (same with troub). The haste is nice cause my dps caps at 100% on two abilities (killing instinct, and focus aim) the former master 1, the latter master 2 choice. Being hasted while having those abilities in use is DEADLY. Add in the cowl of the pathfinder for increased crit chance and your avg. autoattack is 1.5k+ Message Edited by StealthM0de on 05-20-2006 02:53 AM __________________ FIX THE RANGER MYTHICAL IN 09! DEVZ KNOW ITS BROKE, GMs KNOW ITS BROKE, SO WHY IS IT STILL BROKE?!? FIX REPEATING ARROWS, AND OUR OTHER BROKEN CA'S! AND READD BY PRODUCT INGOTS, OR REMOVE BY PRODUCT DUSTS!

05-20-2006, 06:51 PM	#13
Kiori Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 53	I usually wind up dps healer with my inq on raids for the following reasons26% dps boost( melee ) 1 conc per( usually 2 toons, have to kill a group buff for more, but being ranged, with rangers there is less risk with this )damage proc 5% chance to proc around 320 divine damage( can also debuff this for around 950 )Fanaticism: 50% haste boost, +77 int, 8.4% recovery reduction( downside, this stifles me, but with ranged dps this is far less risky )Cleric final aa, int line, divine recovery: 33% recovery reduction, casting times reduced by 50% for 24 secsI have yet to get it, I would like to try the following for my dps groupRangers x 3, dirge, coercer and myself, not sure how it would work out, but sure would like to try, if the rangers were not jousting, I could much spot heal till things were stable, debuff, await the brig to dispatch, then cast dr and follow it up with fanaticismLol apologies for this looking messy, until today I have not posted in some time.

05-20-2006, 11:38 PM	#14
Gareorn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,144	That would be an awesome group setup. Inq's rock. I wish there were more of you around. Just for fun, I rolled a DE Inq. He's just a baby still, but man, is he fun to play. __________________ Leader of the vast right-wing conspiricy... Hiding from the world's smartest woman in a bunker under a Hooter's restaurant.

05-25-2006, 11:03 PM	#15
Serventof Wrath Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 170	I always beg to be in a group with: Wiz = STR buff Zerker = STR buff monk = Haste and group FD The group FD helps on the repair bills

05-26-2006, 01:23 AM	#16
Rahmn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 133	Go with any class that can give you a +DPS, buff. Don't worry too much about haste since we have our own haste buff. During raids I usually roll with a troub, brigand, a spare healer, zerker and a summoner. __________________ Vertigo, Everfrost Ranger Merry Christmas!!!

05-26-2006, 03:22 AM	#17
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	STR is easy to max out along with AGI. Best to get +DPS from coercer, inquis, etc. and also procs from one of the mage classes (fireseed from conjuror, warlock and wizard procs) They do help improve dps. Troubies are great to group with but I believe they are more valuable to the casting groups.

05-26-2006, 10:34 AM	#18
Mirdo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 395	I'm lucky enough to get a Troubador, Wizard, Assassin, Inquisitor + Zerker or Bruiser usually. If you are in a casual raid guild, you have to deal with what's available to you rather than build perfect DPS groups. If we had another dirge they would sit in our group, freeing up the troub for our mainly caster group - but that's not the case. As others have said, you are looking for +DPS mods, procs, haste and STR and INT buffs. Any class that can give you those will help. Also, troubador group hate reduction is nice to have. Mirdo.

05-26-2006, 12:11 PM	#19
schla Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 50	I always lobby my guild raid leader to be in group with Inquis (dps buff and that AA speedhead spell...Fanatism??(I think) Coercer (awesome haste)/Dirge (just always nice to have around) Monk/Serker as tank dps dps dps have had my best results dps-wise in that setup so far Message Edited by schlamo on 05-26-2006 01:13 AM __________________ Djax Quintana, RRR - Ranger, Remnant, Runnyeye

05-26-2006, 12:43 PM	#20
TofuPatty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Know what's kinda sad cleric-wise? A raid only needs 1 templar for the MT group max, any other clerics inquisitors beat templars hands down because they can buff melee dps groups out the wazoo, while all a templar can really do in a non-MT group is heal, and not as effectively outside the MT group as other priest classes.

05-26-2006, 01:17 PM	#21
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	Templars are very useful in the MA group if it's different from the MT group. But yeah templars could use better buffs - so could several classes.