Parse data from 1000(ish) encounters - Page 3

athitchcock · 02-25-2006, 11:10 PM

My main beef with Qrgauthil was that he didn't believe the original parse data due to possible inconsistencies, yet was happy to refute it with similar data which could also be put in question.

To those of you from Qrgauthil's group. The way I look at it, you were fighting appropriate content (even con and higher at 52) and it worked out for you, I assume you didn't wipe during the instance and everyone got very good xp. As I said "I don't care if I'm king of dps in raids or groups, as long as we are completing what we set out to do as a group, it's all good.", because in reality you probably had fun and didn't feel like the content was overly difficult. It appears that Sightless has a fine understanding of how to play a ranger and didn't need to be "educated". Maybe "educated" wasn't the right word to use, instead you could have told him not to hold back like he probably was pre LU20. I'm confident that your results in Silent City will be the same. If your results showing us still doing T1 comparable dps is where the changes leave us for grouping, then for the most part I'm ok with it. If the wizard is pulling aggro while doing less dps, then they obviously need some form of aggro management to match our dps and aggro generation. Just giving a wizard more dps would only exacerbate the aggro problem.

My biggest problem with the changes is the effect it has on our soloing. Generic123 stated the following

"Roots normally last 0-2 attacks, including damage ticks on a DoT. There is no practical way to use your 10+ DoT’s when soloing because if you do the mob will simply not stay rooted. Instead what you do is root it, and cycle Ice Comet (every 50 sec), Ball of Incineration (every 12 sec) and Incapacitate (every 30 sec) So while the mechanism is slightly different the end result is the same, you only get to use a couple of your spells while soloing."

Do wizards root, cast spells until root breaks, root again and repeat? This way you are able to keep your distance, because you can't take melee dmg. Rangers need to keep their distance to use the bulk of our skills, but we don't have an effective way of repeatedly doing so during a fight.

Pre LU20 I would pull with a large dmg ranged attack and hopefully get 1-2 more ranged attacks off before the mob got to me (using thorny trap would increase this to 2-4 ranged attacks). This would put the mob at about 0 to 40% health, in which case I would turn on the defensive stance and begin to use melee CAs and cycle cheap shot to stun the mob and move away to get a ranged or flanking attack off. I could withstand 40% worth of the melee dance.

Post LU20 I use the same tactics, but the mob now gets to me at 60 to 90% health, I'm having a lot of trouble outlasting the mob now (ie dying/running).

I'm sorry if I was overly nasty in my earlier post, but if you don't play a ranger your only experience with our abilities is from grouping with them, from what you are told and from what you read on forums. Since I have only really played one class since launch, I try to make a point of not telling others how to do their jobs. I base my understanding of other classes on statements that they make, like the information that Generic123 posted. If you are not in the ranger's shoes when he disbands to finish off a quest or get that last little bit of xp, you probably don't see the full impact the changes have had on us.

The soloing heroics thing seems to be mentioned often, I'd like to point out that this was only possible if using stun poisons. Pre LU20 at 58 I am confident that with stun poisons I probably could have soloed the djinn at the end of the carpet quest in SS. This is an encounter that was at first only thought doable with a serious group that included an enchanter and/or several tanks for the adds. Without keeping him, or any other heroic mob perma stunned, the ranger would have been face down very quickly. The simple removal of stun poisons or the addition of "if not heroic" to it's ability would have removed this problem from the game.

Gnaril

Qrgauth · 02-25-2006, 11:32 PM

Lightomen wrote:
Qrgauthil, I have a problem with your numbers, as well as the OP. What level were the Wizzies spells compared to those of the rangers? Adept 1 -vs- Adept 3 -vs- Master 1 there are huge differences.

Both 52 with Adept 1s. The berserker (me) has a number of Adept IIIs

Yes, we Rangers have to learn to play different, and I have and have managed to hold my own casting:
- 3 debuffs (only 1 of which does any damage)- 4 ranged/bow CAs- 8 melee CAs (In order performed, usually from behind to limit Parrying)

That sounds about right. 15 buttons to mash SMILEY

- an issue with a fair amount of Master 1's being parried or missing all together. However, the wizzy said his spells were missing too. I did not think to ask what grade (App 1-4, Adept 1/3, or Master) spells he was using.

Interesting, but not a ranger issue. That's possibly a general game mechanics issue. And I agree, it sucks when master taunts get resisted, for example.

- I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers.

I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage".

We need a little tweaking upwards on our ranged CAs. Yes, we are RANGE-rs and our ranged CAs set us apart from Assassins who melee.

That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no.

MortiferaInfe · 02-26-2006, 12:04 AM

My opinion in this, is this, at level 52:

1. I cannot say if we are Tier 1 DPS because I could not compare to swashbucklers, monks, necros, etc. We could be in Tier 2 or Tier 3 for all I know. But I do more DPS than an SK, a Warden (hehe) and a Beserker.

2. I can compete with wizards.

3. I should do 15-20% more DPS or get 1 or 2 group friendly spells.

4. I wish I had more cash to buy poison SMILEY

That's about all I can say for now.

Tarryn · 02-26-2006, 02:16 AM

Qrgauthil wrote:
That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Sightless on the 15%-20% DPS increase we need. However, for a class who brings nothing but DPS to the table, 20% too low is absolutely what I would call "broken". 20% is plenty to put us down in Tier 2, and that's not where we're supposed to be.

When a group is looking to fill a DPS slot, they should be saying: "Find us a Wizard, Ranger, Warlock, or Assassin." They should NOT be saying: "Get us a Wizard, Warlock, or Assassin...settle for a Ranger if there's nothing else."

Even par, that's all we want. Not outclassing the whole show, nor being outclassed, on the basis of the mechanics of our class--but upon our skill as players.

Message Edited by Tarryn on 02-25-200601:17 PM

Runewind · 02-26-2006, 02:30 AM

Qrgauthil wrote:
Lightomen wrote:
Qrgauthil, I have a problem with your numbers, as well as the OP. What level were the Wizzies spells compared to those of the rangers? Adept 1 -vs- Adept 3 -vs- Master 1 there are huge differences.
Both 52 with Adept 1s. The berserker (me) has a number of Adept IIIs
Yes, we Rangers have to learn to play different, and I have and have managed to hold my own casting:
- 3 debuffs (only 1 of which does any damage)- 4 ranged/bow CAs- 8 melee CAs (In order performed, usually from behind to limit Parrying)
That sounds about right. 15 buttons to mash
- an issue with a fair amount of Master 1's being parried or missing all together. However, the wizzy said his spells were missing too. I did not think to ask what grade (App 1-4, Adept 1/3, or Master) spells he was using.
Interesting, but not a ranger issue. That's possibly a general game mechanics issue. And I agree, it sucks when master taunts get resisted, for example.
- I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers.
I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage".
I think that we would be fine with poison being needed for us to get T1 DPS so long as we can use cheap poison to do it. We shouldn't have to buy legendary poison to do it though and we do currently and I think that's most people's gripe. Poison in itself isn't "bonus damage" but buying expensive legendary poison should make us an exceptional T1 class while using it. Just like if a fighter has an expensive weapon they're an exceptional damager for their level. Or if a wizard buys a master 1 of a nuke spell they're exceptional too. (You know before level 50 when most people buy master 1s) It doesn't make us an exceptional T1 DPS class though. it makes us a passable one. That's the problem.
We need a little tweaking upwards on our ranged CAs. Yes, we are RANGE-rs and our ranged CAs set us apart from Assassins who melee.
That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no.

I will say I am happy to be seeing some positive parses. Believe me no one here wants to see us suck. If it turns out that we're able to do our jobs well then I'm sure everyone will be happy. The reason we're arguing with people who are saying we're fine where we are is we have had lots of experiences that show we're not fine and we don't want SOE to look in and see all those people saying we are and just ignore the problems. Because we aren't where we should be. We aren't necessarily tragic it seems but it would be much easier for the devs to look at a topic like this and say "Well they seem fine in that person's group so we don't have to fix them"

Jaslath · 02-26-2006, 03:26 AM

Qrgauthil wrote:
Lightomen wrote:
Qrgauthil, I have a problem with your numbers, as well as the OP. What level were the Wizzies spells compared to those of the rangers? Adept 1 -vs- Adept 3 -vs- Master 1 there are huge differences.
Both 52 with Adept 1s. The berserker (me) has a number of Adept IIIs
Yes, we Rangers have to learn to play different, and I have and have managed to hold my own casting:
- 3 debuffs (only 1 of which does any damage)- 4 ranged/bow CAs- 8 melee CAs (In order performed, usually from behind to limit Parrying)
That sounds about right. 15 buttons to mash ]
Actually that sounds dead wrong since 8 of those buttons are for melee attacks. No one makes a ranger to do melee damage unless it's to finish a mob off. Those melee attacks should not be part of a rangers regular damage sequence especially while in a group.
- an issue with a fair amount of Master 1's being parried or missing all together. However, the wizzy said his spells were missing too. I did not think to ask what grade (App 1-4, Adept 1/3, or Master) spells he was using.
Interesting, but not a ranger issue. That's possibly a general game mechanics issue. And I agree, it sucks when master taunts get resisted, for example.
- I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers.
I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage".No it shouldn't be a integral part of class balance when as been noted it requires rare poison to reach teir 1. Hell I personally feel that no Qeynosian specific class should be using poison but that is another dicussion. Also your example about tank repair his armor is garbage since everyone has to repair armor and I don't see tanks forking over money to repair armor, buy arrows, AND buy poison just to do his job on a daily basis.
We need a little tweaking upwards on our ranged CAs. Yes, we are RANGE-rs and our ranged CAs set us apart from Assassins who melee.
That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no.All I know is that soloing I feel like I'm still playing an assassin even though I have betrayed to become a ranger. Something is wrong about that.

strider19 · 02-26-2006, 04:32 AM

Funny how a mage, who can root and just nuke over and over again (or in necro's case use a pet to tank) get so much dps. Yet a ranger, who can't keep a mob at distance (whiners crying about kiting, and devs fixing it in a day) does less than half the DPS.Also funny how a tank class (zerker), who can TANK, has his own role in a group, a TANK....does more dps than what should be a tier 1 dps class (ranger, who also has no utilities and can not tank much better than a mage).So funny, thnx devs, thnx a lot for everything, we love you too.spits in the face of all the nerf calling cry babies and devs who refuse to care about our class

Velocidad · 02-26-2006, 05:01 AM

Qrgauthil wrote:
- I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers.
I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage".

This is where you are mistaken. First being, if the tanks goes down, pretty much everyone else is also. Yes I know some people run and get away, smart playing by them. Secondly if the tank goes down, your scout or evaccing mage is to blame for not pulling the trigger. That isn't an inherent trait for tanks to have to pay for repairs.Some sort of armor degredation caused by damage would be.For it to be equal every class would have to take a 30 to 75% dmg reduction if they don't have some kind of reagent to use the combat arts/spells. Yeah there are other trade offs but I can dispute those also if you want to bring them up.Just to clarify that 30% to 75% dmg reduction if we aren't using poison. Adeste's is the lvl 50 legendary. First hit is is 435dd plus the first dot dmg which is in the 90s. Say 520 points right off the bat. Now taking into account which of our CAs it lands with that is anywhere from ~120 to 1500. So at that level casters can use 1 vanadium for every 700 spells and for every 700 hits a tank takes it costs him a plat to repair. The non poison using scouts can be bundled in with the casters and use 1 vanadium per 700 CAs. Then you can add in a modifier for a chance NOT to use that portion per spell or take armor degredation that is equal to our chance for the poison to proc.

Sapperlight · 02-26-2006, 10:33 PM

It's disappointing to see the blind lashing out in here, especially when thoughtful posts are made in an attempt to get insight into the OP's analysis. Remember that there are lies, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lies, and statistics, so drilling down into the methodology is absolutely necessary if you want to draw proper conclusions. While I commend the OP on his effort, the information I get on my parses does not merit the same conclusions.

I use the Combat Stats Monitor. I have all master or adept 3 ranged CAs, and adept 1 and master (2) melee CAs. In my groupings, against blue to yellow con mobs, I have consistently been at the top of the parse when in various groupings with a ranger, a berserker, a coercer, and a wizard. My DPS is down 200-300 from before LU20. I've had to change my tactics somewhat, but I think that was to be expected with any wholesale change in the game.

I use all of my ranged CAs, which gives me 10 shots to use on a regular basis, 11 if I use natural selection (AE), 12 if I use Sniper (15 min recast). I use two debuffs. I use melee attacks if there is no AE. If you choose not to use them because it doesn't fit your picture of the class, then that's absolutely your perogative. However, that's not SoE's picture of the class, and it's hard to argue with dire blade (1740 average, 2513 high) and tangleflame (728 average, 1102 high), especially when they can be used at medium range.

I use the same soloing techniques we've discussed on these boards many times, and I can still kill a yellow no arrow in KoS using a trap. I've actually had a trap hold a mob for 5 CAs, which is more than I did before LU20. I've also had them blow through it or miss it because of the smaller size. My stun works the same as before.

I think we got hit hard, perhaps overly hard. I don't have the breadth of data to say that for a fact, and I would argue that none of us do. I want to see our class get better, but I also want to see us do so in an intelligent and unemotional manner.

[Full Disclosure: Sapper, Level 61 Ranger, Najena server.]

Lightomen · 02-27-2006, 03:23 AM

Sapperlight wrote:
It's disappointing to see the blind lashing out in here, especially when thoughtful posts are made in an attempt to get insight into the OP's analysis. Remember that there are lies, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lies, and statistics, so drilling down into the methodology is absolutely necessary if you want to draw proper conclusions. While I commend the OP on his effort, the information I get on my parses does not merit the same conclusions.
I applaud you for your incite hear. So, let us take a gander at your next lie.
However, that's not SoE's picture of the class, and it's hard to argue with dire blade (1740 average, 2513 high) and tangleflame (728 average, 1102 high), especially when they can be used at medium range.
Your STR is approx 250 and your AGI is close also. My STR is 250 and my AGI is 350. I looked over my log for 3 days worth of XPing and my High hit on Dire Blade was 1706 with the Avg being around 1100 -1200. Tangleflame had a high Hit of 709 and an Avg around 450 - 550.
[Full Disclosure: Sapper, Level 61 Ranger, Najena server.]
Thank you for providing this because a quick search gave me your stats.

People need to stop providing false information. If Sapper would like to instruct me on how he is able to hit hard with lower stats then I have then I would gladly entertain his contention that HIS Dire Blade and Tangleflame do so much more then mine. Until then he is just padding his numbers to make himself look better then he actually is.

I have not provided my Parses because I am not a die-hard parser. I know how it works and how to use it. If anybody would like to do a hard core parse with me in group I can tell you I will not hold back. Hell right now, I don't even have to cast Confusion Arrow anymore. I still wear Primal Agility because old habits die hard.

We are broke and that is all I know. Going full tilt with Mystic and Dirge buffs and I was not able to pull off a monk.

So far 90%+ posts contend we are broke. Less then 10% contend we are not. Of those 10%, I would dare say, 1% of those are Rangers. I don't think Rangers are lazy, as some inuendo on the forums indicate. I have always been very active in groups and Raids.

Qrgauth · 02-27-2006, 07:35 AM

Lightomen wrote:
Going full tilt with Mystic and Dirge buffs and I was not able to pull off a monk.

Did it occur to you that maybe it's not rangers that are broken now, but monks?

strider19 · 02-27-2006, 08:00 AM

Same deal with every class...rangers ARE the ones who are broken

SmakenDah · 02-27-2006, 10:10 PM

One thing we noted on Sunday was that the Ranger's DPS was more reliant on buffs than the Wizard's DPS was. If the buffs were missing (i.e. solo) then the Ranger lost as much as 100DPS. That said, the Ranger was still close to what the Wizard was putting out. One buff (Warden single target ATK buff) raised the Ranger's DPS by 50 points on average. With the Berserker buffs going the DPS was raised by another 50 points. The Wizard wasn't impacted at all. Once again, with buffs the Ranger out DPSed the Wizard consistently.I thought I'd add that observation because Sightless hasn't. :smileywink:

Sapperlight · 02-28-2006, 02:42 AM

My, some people are full of themselves. My agility and strength both hover around 350--obviously EQ2Players doesn't account for everything, such as self-buffs and AA's. Dire Blade is Master 2 and Tangleflame is Master 1. I openly admitted that my damage went down significantly and I'm not please about it. However, I don't see how blindly lashing out at people with ad hominem attacks and perpetuating fallacious information will solve the problem.

Steezi · 02-28-2006, 02:42 AM

Dont mention wizards.... Wizards are broken as badly as we are. Accurate comparison would be assassin on a single target, or a conj/necro/warlock on a group encounter... Wizards i personally feel should do disgusting amounts of single target dmg with no aggro drops. Atm they have middle dmg spells with no aggro drops.

The reason u see so much more outrage on ranger pages that on wizzies, is that they were broken steadily over a much longer period of time...for us it happened all at once.

SOE... Fix your dps classes! I have absolutely no faith in your abilities to see what this game needs....anyone who thinks a good fix is coming soon, look at said broken wizards. And SOE loves casters...

Fib · 02-28-2006, 04:34 AM

The right way to do an analysis of this is to parse a much greater sample of all sorts of classes for a couple of weeks. That would represent an average of what the classes do under normal curcumstances. This data while interesting is a sample size of 1. Yeah I know 1000 reps. But its still just one estimate of one ranger.I don't know what kind of prebuilt analytical tools SOE has for the game. If it were me I would have built in a way of monitoring a variety of things over time. The amount of information that the game generates in a single minute of activity one one server has to be astounding though.Kinda makes you wonder what infor they do generate.

Steezi · 02-28-2006, 10:55 PM

dont try to tell them thinks that make sense. they will get mad and nerf brigands or somthing.

Lightomen · 03-03-2006, 12:36 AM

Sapperlight wrote:
I have all master or adept 3 ranged CAs, and adept 1 and master (2) melee CAs.

My apologies for not following you. You stated you had "adept 1 and master (2) melee CAs". I read this as you had adept 1 and master II, which prob not many rangers take the Master II melee CA since Stealthy Fire was the only real choice at 54.

Tarryn · 03-03-2006, 07:09 AM

Lightomen wrote:
prob not many rangers take the Master II melee CA since Stealthy Fire was the only real choice at 54.

Heh... I two-box with a templar alot, so I love my Master II Dire Blade. Up to 2k dmg+ every 60 sec is nice.

Kelader · 03-03-2006, 07:30 AM

SmakenDahed wrote:
ryantj wrote:THIS IS A TON OF DATA. . . .A TON OF REAL LIVE SERVER TESTED DATA. . . can't argue the facts. I will keep all this data available for the inevitable person who posts and calls me a liar or not including everything or whatever they care to say about me. This right here is the facts. . . pure and simple numbers.
Yes you can argue it because there are a LARGE number of factors in gathering this data that could have been variable and could have skewed the numbers to this end result. There are a number of telling issues in what was posted.Why does the Ranger have less than half the number of swings than the Berserker does? (Why does he have fewer swings than the necro's pet?)Why does the Ranger have almost as many misses with fewer swings as the Berserker?Was the Ranger using a shield? Did he only attack when the mob was half dead or down a certain amount? Was there a level difference between the Berserker and Ranger? What level mob were they facing? Did some of the mobs have damage reduction/immunities to the weapons used by the Ranger? EDIT: Was the Ranger ONLY using his bow?Looking at the group make up, the Berserker should have been in defensive mode which should have reduced his attack rate/effectiveness (i.e. less swings or more misses).This doesn't seem right at all and do go saying that is the issue, the Ranger in this test was sitting on his hands for half of it - the number of swings illustrates that.
Message Edited by SmakenDahed on 02-24-200612:36 PM

I ran a parser on similar if lower level group of encounters last night. I play a 44 ranger and grouped with a 45 zerker, 43 coercer and 42 necro, and 44 templar. We were doing exp runs along the top of CT. Those are mostly white cons, with some yellows, and a few blues.

Interestingly, I had the exact same relationship between my swings and the zerker swings. I was not sitting on my hands - I never do. I melee when my bow ca's arnt up. Yet, in many encounters the Zerker had many more swings. He did not use a shield. Outside of tough raid mobs, most tanks don't at my level.

I would not conclude that there is anything wrong with this ranger or these parses.

02-25-2006, 11:10 PM	#61
athitchcock Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 53	My main beef with Qrgauthil was that he didn't believe the original parse data due to possible inconsistencies, yet was happy to refute it with similar data which could also be put in question. To those of you from Qrgauthil's group. The way I look at it, you were fighting appropriate content (even con and higher at 52) and it worked out for you, I assume you didn't wipe during the instance and everyone got very good xp. As I said "I don't care if I'm king of dps in raids or groups, as long as we are completing what we set out to do as a group, it's all good.", because in reality you probably had fun and didn't feel like the content was overly difficult. It appears that Sightless has a fine understanding of how to play a ranger and didn't need to be "educated". Maybe "educated" wasn't the right word to use, instead you could have told him not to hold back like he probably was pre LU20. I'm confident that your results in Silent City will be the same. If your results showing us still doing T1 comparable dps is where the changes leave us for grouping, then for the most part I'm ok with it. If the wizard is pulling aggro while doing less dps, then they obviously need some form of aggro management to match our dps and aggro generation. Just giving a wizard more dps would only exacerbate the aggro problem. My biggest problem with the changes is the effect it has on our soloing. Generic123 stated the following "Roots normally last 0-2 attacks, including damage ticks on a DoT. There is no practical way to use your 10+ DoT’s when soloing because if you do the mob will simply not stay rooted. Instead what you do is root it, and cycle Ice Comet (every 50 sec), Ball of Incineration (every 12 sec) and Incapacitate (every 30 sec) So while the mechanism is slightly different the end result is the same, you only get to use a couple of your spells while soloing." Do wizards root, cast spells until root breaks, root again and repeat? This way you are able to keep your distance, because you can't take melee dmg. Rangers need to keep their distance to use the bulk of our skills, but we don't have an effective way of repeatedly doing so during a fight. Pre LU20 I would pull with a large dmg ranged attack and hopefully get 1-2 more ranged attacks off before the mob got to me (using thorny trap would increase this to 2-4 ranged attacks). This would put the mob at about 0 to 40% health, in which case I would turn on the defensive stance and begin to use melee CAs and cycle cheap shot to stun the mob and move away to get a ranged or flanking attack off. I could withstand 40% worth of the melee dance. Post LU20 I use the same tactics, but the mob now gets to me at 60 to 90% health, I'm having a lot of trouble outlasting the mob now (ie dying/running). I'm sorry if I was overly nasty in my earlier post, but if you don't play a ranger your only experience with our abilities is from grouping with them, from what you are told and from what you read on forums. Since I have only really played one class since launch, I try to make a point of not telling others how to do their jobs. I base my understanding of other classes on statements that they make, like the information that Generic123 posted. If you are not in the ranger's shoes when he disbands to finish off a quest or get that last little bit of xp, you probably don't see the full impact the changes have had on us. The soloing heroics thing seems to be mentioned often, I'd like to point out that this was only possible if using stun poisons. Pre LU20 at 58 I am confident that with stun poisons I probably could have soloed the djinn at the end of the carpet quest in SS. This is an encounter that was at first only thought doable with a serious group that included an enchanter and/or several tanks for the adds. Without keeping him, or any other heroic mob perma stunned, the ranger would have been face down very quickly. The simple removal of stun poisons or the addition of "if not heroic" to it's ability would have removed this problem from the game. Gnaril __________________

02-25-2006, 11:32 PM	#62
Qrgauth Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Lightomen wrote: Qrgauthil, I have a problem with your numbers, as well as the OP. What level were the Wizzies spells compared to those of the rangers? Adept 1 -vs- Adept 3 -vs- Master 1 there are huge differences. Both 52 with Adept 1s. The berserker (me) has a number of Adept IIIs Yes, we Rangers have to learn to play different, and I have and have managed to hold my own casting: - 3 debuffs (only 1 of which does any damage)- 4 ranged/bow CAs- 8 melee CAs (In order performed, usually from behind to limit Parrying) That sounds about right. 15 buttons to mash - an issue with a fair amount of Master 1's being parried or missing all together. However, the wizzy said his spells were missing too. I did not think to ask what grade (App 1-4, Adept 1/3, or Master) spells he was using. Interesting, but not a ranger issue. That's possibly a general game mechanics issue. And I agree, it sucks when master taunts get resisted, for example. - I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers. I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage". We need a little tweaking upwards on our ranged CAs. Yes, we are RANGE-rs and our ranged CAs set us apart from Assassins who melee. That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no. __________________

02-26-2006, 12:04 AM	#63
MortiferaInfe General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 22	My opinion in this, is this, at level 52: 1. I cannot say if we are Tier 1 DPS because I could not compare to swashbucklers, monks, necros, etc. We could be in Tier 2 or Tier 3 for all I know. But I do more DPS than an SK, a Warden (hehe) and a Beserker. 2. I can compete with wizards. 3. I should do 15-20% more DPS or get 1 or 2 group friendly spells. 4. I wish I had more cash to buy poison That's about all I can say for now. __________________ Loryn - High Elf Illusionist Antonia Bayle Server

02-26-2006, 02:16 AM	#64
Tarryn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 142	Qrgauthil wrote: That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no. I'm pretty much in agreement with Sightless on the 15%-20% DPS increase we need. However, for a class who brings nothing but DPS to the table, 20% too low is absolutely what I would call "broken". 20% is plenty to put us down in Tier 2, and that's not where we're supposed to be. When a group is looking to fill a DPS slot, they should be saying: "Find us a Wizard, Ranger, Warlock, or Assassin." They should NOT be saying: "Get us a Wizard, Warlock, or Assassin...settle for a Ranger if there's nothing else." Even par, that's all we want. Not outclassing the whole show, nor being outclassed, on the basis of the mechanics of our class--but upon our skill as players. Message Edited by Tarryn on 02-25-200601:17 PM __________________

02-26-2006, 02:30 AM	#65
Runewind Fansite Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 341	Qrgauthil wrote: Lightomen wrote: Qrgauthil, I have a problem with your numbers, as well as the OP. What level were the Wizzies spells compared to those of the rangers? Adept 1 -vs- Adept 3 -vs- Master 1 there are huge differences. Both 52 with Adept 1s. The berserker (me) has a number of Adept IIIs Yes, we Rangers have to learn to play different, and I have and have managed to hold my own casting: - 3 debuffs (only 1 of which does any damage)- 4 ranged/bow CAs- 8 melee CAs (In order performed, usually from behind to limit Parrying) That sounds about right. 15 buttons to mash - an issue with a fair amount of Master 1's being parried or missing all together. However, the wizzy said his spells were missing too. I did not think to ask what grade (App 1-4, Adept 1/3, or Master) spells he was using. Interesting, but not a ranger issue. That's possibly a general game mechanics issue. And I agree, it sucks when master taunts get resisted, for example. - I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers. I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage". I think that we would be fine with poison being needed for us to get T1 DPS so long as we can use cheap poison to do it. We shouldn't have to buy legendary poison to do it though and we do currently and I think that's most people's gripe. Poison in itself isn't "bonus damage" but buying expensive legendary poison should make us an exceptional T1 class while using it. Just like if a fighter has an expensive weapon they're an exceptional damager for their level. Or if a wizard buys a master 1 of a nuke spell they're exceptional too. (You know before level 50 when most people buy master 1s) It doesn't make us an exceptional T1 DPS class though. it makes us a passable one. That's the problem. We need a little tweaking upwards on our ranged CAs. Yes, we are RANGE-rs and our ranged CAs set us apart from Assassins who melee. That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no. I will say I am happy to be seeing some positive parses. Believe me no one here wants to see us suck. If it turns out that we're able to do our jobs well then I'm sure everyone will be happy. The reason we're arguing with people who are saying we're fine where we are is we have had lots of experiences that show we're not fine and we don't want SOE to look in and see all those people saying we are and just ignore the problems. Because we aren't where we should be. We aren't necessarily tragic it seems but it would be much easier for the devs to look at a topic like this and say "Well they seem fine in that person's group so we don't have to fix them" __________________

02-26-2006, 03:26 AM	#66
Jaslath Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 17	Qrgauthil wrote: Lightomen wrote: Qrgauthil, I have a problem with your numbers, as well as the OP. What level were the Wizzies spells compared to those of the rangers? Adept 1 -vs- Adept 3 -vs- Master 1 there are huge differences. Both 52 with Adept 1s. The berserker (me) has a number of Adept IIIs Yes, we Rangers have to learn to play different, and I have and have managed to hold my own casting: - 3 debuffs (only 1 of which does any damage)- 4 ranged/bow CAs- 8 melee CAs (In order performed, usually from behind to limit Parrying) That sounds about right. 15 buttons to mash ] Actually that sounds dead wrong since 8 of those buttons are for melee attacks. No one makes a ranger to do melee damage unless it's to finish a mob off. Those melee attacks should not be part of a rangers regular damage sequence especially while in a group. - an issue with a fair amount of Master 1's being parried or missing all together. However, the wizzy said his spells were missing too. I did not think to ask what grade (App 1-4, Adept 1/3, or Master) spells he was using. Interesting, but not a ranger issue. That's possibly a general game mechanics issue. And I agree, it sucks when master taunts get resisted, for example. - I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers. I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage".No it shouldn't be a integral part of class balance when as been noted it requires rare poison to reach teir 1. Hell I personally feel that no Qeynosian specific class should be using poison but that is another dicussion. Also your example about tank repair his armor is garbage since everyone has to repair armor and I don't see tanks forking over money to repair armor, buy arrows, AND buy poison just to do his job on a daily basis. We need a little tweaking upwards on our ranged CAs. Yes, we are RANGE-rs and our ranged CAs set us apart from Assassins who melee. That may well be, but I'd say rangers are pretty close to where they should be now. Need a bit of tweaking - maybe, broken - no.All I know is that soloing I feel like I'm still playing an assassin even though I have betrayed to become a ranger. Something is wrong about that.

02-26-2006, 04:32 AM	#67
strider19 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 54	Funny how a mage, who can root and just nuke over and over again (or in necro's case use a pet to tank) get so much dps. Yet a ranger, who can't keep a mob at distance (whiners crying about kiting, and devs fixing it in a day) does less than half the DPS.Also funny how a tank class (zerker), who can TANK, has his own role in a group, a TANK....does more dps than what should be a tier 1 dps class (ranger, who also has no utilities and can not tank much better than a mage).So funny, thnx devs, thnx a lot for everything, we love you too.spits in the face of all the nerf calling cry babies and devs who refuse to care about our class

02-26-2006, 05:01 AM	#68
Velocidad Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 83	Qrgauthil wrote: - I used 42 charges of Translucent Torment of Rijacki. That is 1pp+. I should not HAVE to use poisons to keep my DPS in Tier 1. No one else HAS to pay to keep their DPS in their tier, so why should I. Assassins flat out owned me in my groups because they have at least 3 spells that hit for 3k+ damage and are on short recast timers. I disagree here. Yes, you should. You're a poison using class and poison is an integral part of your class balance, and it should be a factor for ALL poison using classes. You don't have to use uber legendary poison at 1 pp a pop to do it however. Every time a ranger buys a poison for a handful of gold, some tank is forking over a handful of gold to repair his armour. Poison isn't "bonus damage". This is where you are mistaken. First being, if the tanks goes down, pretty much everyone else is also. Yes I know some people run and get away, smart playing by them. Secondly if the tank goes down, your scout or evaccing mage is to blame for not pulling the trigger. That isn't an inherent trait for tanks to have to pay for repairs.Some sort of armor degredation caused by damage would be.For it to be equal every class would have to take a 30 to 75% dmg reduction if they don't have some kind of reagent to use the combat arts/spells. Yeah there are other trade offs but I can dispute those also if you want to bring them up.Just to clarify that 30% to 75% dmg reduction if we aren't using poison. Adeste's is the lvl 50 legendary. First hit is is 435dd plus the first dot dmg which is in the 90s. Say 520 points right off the bat. Now taking into account which of our CAs it lands with that is anywhere from ~120 to 1500. So at that level casters can use 1 vanadium for every 700 spells and for every 700 hits a tank takes it costs him a plat to repair. The non poison using scouts can be bundled in with the casters and use 1 vanadium per 700 CAs. Then you can add in a modifier for a chance NOT to use that portion per spell or take armor degredation that is equal to our chance for the poison to proc.

02-26-2006, 10:33 PM	#69
Sapperlight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	It's disappointing to see the blind lashing out in here, especially when thoughtful posts are made in an attempt to get insight into the OP's analysis. Remember that there are lies, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lies, and statistics, so drilling down into the methodology is absolutely necessary if you want to draw proper conclusions. While I commend the OP on his effort, the information I get on my parses does not merit the same conclusions. I use the Combat Stats Monitor. I have all master or adept 3 ranged CAs, and adept 1 and master (2) melee CAs. In my groupings, against blue to yellow con mobs, I have consistently been at the top of the parse when in various groupings with a ranger, a berserker, a coercer, and a wizard. My DPS is down 200-300 from before LU20. I've had to change my tactics somewhat, but I think that was to be expected with any wholesale change in the game. I use all of my ranged CAs, which gives me 10 shots to use on a regular basis, 11 if I use natural selection (AE), 12 if I use Sniper (15 min recast). I use two debuffs. I use melee attacks if there is no AE. If you choose not to use them because it doesn't fit your picture of the class, then that's absolutely your perogative. However, that's not SoE's picture of the class, and it's hard to argue with dire blade (1740 average, 2513 high) and tangleflame (728 average, 1102 high), especially when they can be used at medium range. I use the same soloing techniques we've discussed on these boards many times, and I can still kill a yellow no arrow in KoS using a trap. I've actually had a trap hold a mob for 5 CAs, which is more than I did before LU20. I've also had them blow through it or miss it because of the smaller size. My stun works the same as before. I think we got hit hard, perhaps overly hard. I don't have the breadth of data to say that for a fact, and I would argue that none of us do. I want to see our class get better, but I also want to see us do so in an intelligent and unemotional manner. [Full Disclosure: Sapper, Level 61 Ranger, Najena server.]

02-27-2006, 03:23 AM	#70
Lightomen Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nektulos Posts: 48	Sapperlight wrote: It's disappointing to see the blind lashing out in here, especially when thoughtful posts are made in an attempt to get insight into the OP's analysis. Remember that there are lies, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lies, and statistics, so drilling down into the methodology is absolutely necessary if you want to draw proper conclusions. While I commend the OP on his effort, the information I get on my parses does not merit the same conclusions. I applaud you for your incite hear. So, let us take a gander at your next lie. However, that's not SoE's picture of the class, and it's hard to argue with dire blade (1740 average, 2513 high) and tangleflame (728 average, 1102 high), especially when they can be used at medium range. Your STR is approx 250 and your AGI is close also. My STR is 250 and my AGI is 350. I looked over my log for 3 days worth of XPing and my High hit on Dire Blade was 1706 with the Avg being around 1100 -1200. Tangleflame had a high Hit of 709 and an Avg around 450 - 550. [Full Disclosure: Sapper, Level 61 Ranger, Najena server.] Thank you for providing this because a quick search gave me your stats. People need to stop providing false information. If Sapper would like to instruct me on how he is able to hit hard with lower stats then I have then I would gladly entertain his contention that HIS Dire Blade and Tangleflame do so much more then mine. Until then he is just padding his numbers to make himself look better then he actually is. I have not provided my Parses because I am not a die-hard parser. I know how it works and how to use it. If anybody would like to do a hard core parse with me in group I can tell you I will not hold back. Hell right now, I don't even have to cast Confusion Arrow anymore. I still wear Primal Agility because old habits die hard. We are broke and that is all I know. Going full tilt with Mystic and Dirge buffs and I was not able to pull off a monk. So far 90%+ posts contend we are broke. Less then 10% contend we are not. Of those 10%, I would dare say, 1% of those are Rangers. I don't think Rangers are lazy, as some inuendo on the forums indicate. I have always been very active in groups and Raids. __________________ Staghorn 90 Kerran Ranger 90 Master Jeweler Fomerly from Lavastorm Proud Member of Has Gone LinkDead

02-27-2006, 07:35 AM	#71
Qrgauth Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Lightomen wrote: Going full tilt with Mystic and Dirge buffs and I was not able to pull off a monk. Did it occur to you that maybe it's not rangers that are broken now, but monks? __________________

02-27-2006, 08:00 AM	#72
strider19 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 54	Same deal with every class...rangers ARE the ones who are broken

02-27-2006, 10:10 PM	#73
SmakenDah Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	One thing we noted on Sunday was that the Ranger's DPS was more reliant on buffs than the Wizard's DPS was. If the buffs were missing (i.e. solo) then the Ranger lost as much as 100DPS. That said, the Ranger was still close to what the Wizard was putting out. One buff (Warden single target ATK buff) raised the Ranger's DPS by 50 points on average. With the Berserker buffs going the DPS was raised by another 50 points. The Wizard wasn't impacted at all. Once again, with buffs the Ranger out DPSed the Wizard consistently.I thought I'd add that observation because Sightless hasn't. :smileywink: __________________ Smaken Dahed - 51 Ogre Guardian [TDC] - Permafrost Ravenleaf Runningsong - 65 Wood Elf Warden [TDC] - Permafrost

02-28-2006, 02:42 AM	#74
Sapperlight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	My, some people are full of themselves. My agility and strength both hover around 350--obviously EQ2Players doesn't account for everything, such as self-buffs and AA's. Dire Blade is Master 2 and Tangleflame is Master 1. I openly admitted that my damage went down significantly and I'm not please about it. However, I don't see how blindly lashing out at people with ad hominem attacks and perpetuating fallacious information will solve the problem.

02-28-2006, 02:42 AM	#75
Steezi Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 239	Dont mention wizards.... Wizards are broken as badly as we are. Accurate comparison would be assassin on a single target, or a conj/necro/warlock on a group encounter... Wizards i personally feel should do disgusting amounts of single target dmg with no aggro drops. Atm they have middle dmg spells with no aggro drops. The reason u see so much more outrage on ranger pages that on wizzies, is that they were broken steadily over a much longer period of time...for us it happened all at once. SOE... Fix your dps classes! I have absolutely no faith in your abilities to see what this game needs....anyone who thinks a good fix is coming soon, look at said broken wizards. And SOE loves casters...

02-28-2006, 04:34 AM	#76
Fib Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	The right way to do an analysis of this is to parse a much greater sample of all sorts of classes for a couple of weeks. That would represent an average of what the classes do under normal curcumstances. This data while interesting is a sample size of 1. Yeah I know 1000 reps. But its still just one estimate of one ranger.I don't know what kind of prebuilt analytical tools SOE has for the game. If it were me I would have built in a way of monitoring a variety of things over time. The amount of information that the game generates in a single minute of activity one one server has to be astounding though.Kinda makes you wonder what infor they do generate.

02-28-2006, 10:55 PM	#77
Steezi Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 239	dont try to tell them thinks that make sense. they will get mad and nerf brigands or somthing.

03-03-2006, 12:36 AM	#78
Lightomen Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nektulos Posts: 48	Sapperlight wrote: I have all master or adept 3 ranged CAs, and adept 1 and master (2) melee CAs. My apologies for not following you. You stated you had "adept 1 and master (2) melee CAs". I read this as you had adept 1 and master II, which prob not many rangers take the Master II melee CA since Stealthy Fire was the only real choice at 54. __________________ Staghorn 90 Kerran Ranger 90 Master Jeweler Fomerly from Lavastorm Proud Member of Has Gone LinkDead

03-03-2006, 07:09 AM	#79
Tarryn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 142	Lightomen wrote: prob not many rangers take the Master II melee CA since Stealthy Fire was the only real choice at 54. Heh... I two-box with a templar alot, so I love my Master II Dire Blade. Up to 2k dmg+ every 60 sec is nice. __________________

03-03-2006, 07:30 AM	#80
Kelader Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 20	SmakenDahed wrote: ryantj wrote:THIS IS A TON OF DATA. . . .A TON OF REAL LIVE SERVER TESTED DATA. . . can't argue the facts. I will keep all this data available for the inevitable person who posts and calls me a liar or not including everything or whatever they care to say about me. This right here is the facts. . . pure and simple numbers. Yes you can argue it because there are a LARGE number of factors in gathering this data that could have been variable and could have skewed the numbers to this end result. There are a number of telling issues in what was posted.Why does the Ranger have less than half the number of swings than the Berserker does? (Why does he have fewer swings than the necro's pet?)Why does the Ranger have almost as many misses with fewer swings as the Berserker?Was the Ranger using a shield? Did he only attack when the mob was half dead or down a certain amount? Was there a level difference between the Berserker and Ranger? What level mob were they facing? Did some of the mobs have damage reduction/immunities to the weapons used by the Ranger? EDIT: Was the Ranger ONLY using his bow?Looking at the group make up, the Berserker should have been in defensive mode which should have reduced his attack rate/effectiveness (i.e. less swings or more misses).This doesn't seem right at all and do go saying that is the issue, the Ranger in this test was sitting on his hands for half of it - the number of swings illustrates that. Message Edited by SmakenDahed on 02-24-200612:36 PM I ran a parser on similar if lower level group of encounters last night. I play a 44 ranger and grouped with a 45 zerker, 43 coercer and 42 necro, and 44 templar. We were doing exp runs along the top of CT. Those are mostly white cons, with some yellows, and a few blues. Interestingly, I had the exact same relationship between my swings and the zerker swings. I was not sitting on my hands - I never do. I melee when my bow ca's arnt up. Yet, in many encounters the Zerker had many more swings. He did not use a shield. Outside of tough raid mobs, most tanks don't at my level. I would not conclude that there is anything wrong with this ranger or these parses.