So I raided for the first time as a dirge ...... Who designed our spells?

Antryg Mistrose · 01-28-2007, 04:59 AM

Not the ubberest of raids - a 2 group wander through CoAA, but at level 61 it still gave the mender a bit of retirement money. Proudest moment was when I used my trusty AppIV Hymn of Horror to stop those nasty Sunchild messengers getting away (my only spell below Adept3/Master (nice being a 70 jeweler) oh well except for Noxious Concerto and Tomb's Stillness - but nobody takes them seriosly)Anyway - I thought I'd do the proper dirgey thing and debuff the mobs into oblivion:

Whip out my shiny new Raincaller and start plinking away
Verlien's Keen of Despair - need to be inside 15m range ever 20 odd seconds - easy peasy
Daro's, ah thats better - nice long range = safe. What????? 31 power every 6 seconds !
Disheartening Discante - another 33 power every 6 seconds
Clara's Cataclysmic Cacopohny (love that name) - but you guessed it - 28 power every 6 seconds
Zander's - Nope. I no silly, I read the forums - it stays firmly off my hotbars (19 power every 6 seconds saved:smileywink:)

Okay, now we braves the AoEs and dash in:

Tarven's Cantankerous Verse
Shroud and Garsin's . What the ??? I want to cast Scream of Death !!! But having raiding pretensions I've respecced BladeDance + DKTM - no Bump for me:smileysad:
Shrieking Stab - While I'm in the vicinity and all - then high tail it out of there

So I'm back to plinking at range, watching my power dwindle at 58 pts every 6 seconds (I dont have any FT and only 1 pt in Bria's currently) - dashing in now and then to hit Tarven's and Garsin's - and rezzing the odd lowbie Swashbuckler.Then the priest in our group goes down. No problemo - dirge to the rescue..... Oh,oh - no power and Elegy at Death's Door is 231:smileysad: Manastone ! 150 - nope still not enough, Master's Clarity potion (not high enough for the good stuff yet). Still not enough !!!Oh well I'll just stand here a moment and let some power regen......... Plink, plink, plinkHuh, my power is back to zero !!! @#$%#$% Daro/Disheartening/ClaraSome nice Dirge/Troubador "Flared Royal Bracers" dropped, and as I was the only Bard in the raid, it wasn't a total loss :smileywink:So do ubberer raiders have these problems?

Not enough power to do much attacking once those vampiric green spells are cast
No way without giving up a WIS debuff every minute to get off our token DPS spell (Scream of Death)

TalanRM · 01-28-2007, 05:17 AM

If you are running low on power conserve it a Dirge on a raid, even if that means only autoattacking. Power is best spent on maintaining debuffs, including the flank attack DPS debuff, and rezzing.

Gear will obviously help allot as you keep raiding. Our Nightcord gloves have a little mana regen on them and are a common drop off early Labs mobs. Also, the Mark of Awakening quest another 'easy gain' mana regen item.

If your raid has them, make sure you get a heart from your necromancer and an essence shard from your conjuror. Breaking out the old mana stone and buying power potions also helps - most raid guilds will have alchemists that make them for cost or even free. You could also consider using Int or Agility potions for a small power increase until you get fully raid geared.

EoF AAs can increase the mana regen on your Bria's buff (58/tick with Master 1 and 5AAs in it) and half your stealth casting time down to 1 second.

In long fights, especially if you need to rez allot power can become an issue, as allot of Dirge abilities have comparatively high power costs. However, it is really a case trying to balance out your power consumption. If you feel power is going to be an issue for a particular fight ignore the DPS side of your combat arts and stick to debuffing and rezzing - those things can make or break a raid, whereas a Dirges personal DPS is unlikely to turn a fight.

Antryg Mistrose · 01-28-2007, 06:16 AM

Thanks for taking the time to reply - though I think I covered all your points (bar MoA which is a level 70 item) in my post. Current spells do not look well designed (and I'm kinda hoping a developer will consider that in the changes) 4 ongoing power cost spells is ridiculous - even Illusionists (who have vastly superior regen) only have one!The comparison to raiding as a Templar or Illusionist (I hardly ever raid as a SK - who needs yet another useless plate tank after all) is marked. It was not a lot of fun

Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on 01-28-2007 03:13 AM

Priestbane · 01-28-2007, 01:04 PM

The ongoing power cost songs used to take a conc each... this is much better for us, while still enforcing the "choose, bard!" idea. You don't have to run them all.

Also, Manastone is (unlike the DoF manastone) a use early, use often item. Don't wait till you're out of mana to use it. And finally, the final degredate ability (dirge) reduces the mana cost of all your debuffs.

Stack yourself with a coercer or illusionist, and you could maintain all 4 (if you wanted to) relatively easily, without AAs. As was stated, gear will certainly assist. Well designed? I like it. Well implemented... not so much, but hey, they say they're lookin at scaling. =)

Barbara Hambly fan?

TalanRM · 01-28-2007, 02:11 PM

I guess we have a difference of approach here. The only time I feel that I have to do anything particular is during a difficult raid (or Nizara). Even in trio groups without a proper tank yellow ^^^ heroic groups just disintegrate in most instances.

Dirges will use power faster than most classes, but once you get geared up and if you concentrate on debuffs, rezzing and health top ups with Oration of Sacrifice and CoB rather than DPS (not saying you arn't just drawing a comparison between Dirges power use on longer raid encounters and that of most other classes) then the only time power should be an issue is if allot of rezzing is required.

Message Edited by TalanRM on 01-28-2007 01:11 AM

Whysprr_Wyrd · 01-28-2007, 05:18 PM

Since we're on the subject, could someone succintly summarize the manastone-like items that're available?

Whysp

Antryg Mistrose · 01-28-2007, 08:25 PM

As a raiding templar (in a guild very short of bards/enchanters - which is why my illusionst has never raided grouped with a troubador and my Dirge will be darn lucky to raid with an enchanter ...) I'm very aware of power:

Manastone - lowbie HQ - Ambush this cute little ratonga who wanders around near the Giant's in Thundering Steppes and steal his orders. Stiletto is the rodent's name
Vessle of Fyr'Un (or something of similar spelling) - tedious T6 tramp through living tombs (ugly zone) - quest pickup is at a location that does not help sufferers of vertigo. If you have a die hard guild then on a Godking raid (horrid eye harvesting) its possible to upgrade it by 'Overfilling'. A lot fiddlier to use than Manastone as you can't just drag it to your hotbar, but actually have to equip it. (you'd be amazed at the weird things people leave in their charm slots when raiding even - harvesting tools, tradeskilleng enhancers, Priest rez thingies, Chameleon totems ... No sense of style)
Summoners - both Necromancers and Conjurers have a temporary thingy which gives you 3 charges to convert health to power. You can no longer have different qualities in your inventory (say AdeptIII and Master) so need to nag these folk often
Clarity or Power potions (clarity give more power, but its over a longer time rather than instant) - these are made by alchemists and the super duper one is Grandmaster (made from T7 adept 3 spell byproducts so a bit pricey) - cheaper are Master (T6) or Exceptional (T7 common)
Totems - out of combat only - woodworkers make 'em - forget the names
Drinks - the 'good stuff' is Bosprite's and GiggleGibbery juice - as they are the longest lasting and give stats (provisioner made). Also out of conbat only
Quest 893432 or so in Claymore line (okay I might be exagherating slightly) (and no I will not run a spell checker on that) - totem that restores all power (there is also a health one) - charm slot item. Need to be out combat though (just after a raid wipe for example :smileywink:).
Be nice to your friendly neighbourhood enchanter - Their first KoS AA allows them to give (30sec later) 10% to power for both them and you. If your enchanter is an Illusionist and you promise to melee, you have a got a better chance of getting them to cast this on you, rather than some unworthy like the MT (Its one less target change they need to do to get their melee based spell proc to go off)/ If you are really good, they may even cast dynamism on you. If you have the misfortune to be being beat on (or are rather coordinated and cast your Fyr'Un thingy enchanters in group can also use there bloodlines spell for a bit of extra power - Manacloak).
If you aren't going to melee a lot then Prismatic 1.0 (or 2.0 see above die hard guild) is more or less one groupable now (Darathar can still beat up overconfident 70 guardians :smileywink:) This is pretty darn good regen (Godking = 2.0 is only 1 pt more). But its grey at mid 60's up (Godking isn't)
Mark of Awakened Instinct ('cause SoE is too stingy to give us the "Intellect" one) - IF you can con 23 somebodys into doing the raid these days.
Get a provisioner to spill some "Metaphysical" food on your natty cape - FT3 adornment (rather pricey unless you are on good terms with a T7 transmuter)
If you don't have a natty cape - Well firstly what are you doing playing a dirge? Head off to your nearest tailer for a FT3 one.
Weapon adornment - "Phantom" in the name these can give a power proc. Scintillating is the T7 expensive one
If you are evil and can stomach the quest (I'm not really so I deleted it and followed Sol Ro instead on my Shadow Knight) Innoruk's cloak has a power proc
There are plenty of other dropped FT bits and pieces floating around - mainly KoS zones. I vaguely remember a FT2 ring from am easily soloable quest in Bonemire - some silly gnome stuck down a ledge on Shattered Weir. Soe Seem to think FT (flowing thought) is valuable, so these items generally have otherwise rubbish stats.
There is bound to be some FT somewhere on Dirge class armour/relic

Thats all I can reember offhand. I think I've spelt them right so eq2i or AlakazamWhatsItsName should have detailsI haven't done the maths (mainly as I can't remember how long a tick is), but those power draining debuffs would I'm guessing pretty much chew through all the FT you can get your mitts on (which for most mortals (even dirges) requires grouping with an enchanter as well as items to cap) FT 102? at level 70 (half of which can be from items) is my vague recollection from a long ago developer post.

Succinct? Not a chance :smileywink:

Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on 01-28-2007 03:56 PM

TraxVivendi · 01-29-2007, 07:56 AM

Like it was said earlier in the thread, conserve your power.There are several steps that can aid you in this, first of all get Bria's maxed in EoF AA. This one's enough to maintain two power draining debuffs if you also have Degredate (last AA choice on Degredate tree)Get some proc items that drain power. I use, V'Ncenzi's Voluminous Cape and Silver Sword of Rage with Scintillating Phantom Handle. I know there are more power tapping items outthere, just haven't had a chance to grab any of em without losing something, like stats or resistances. The two I use, was parsed to drain nearly 20k power in less than an hour killing trash in EH. Have to say, I was in MT group at that time, so had a templar with 25% proc increase together with my own Luck of the Dirge.With this setup, i can virtually mash buttons as i please. The fight has to be very very long for me to ever run out of power, while constantly having both Clara's and Daro's, Shrieking Stab, Tarven's, Scream of Death (using shroud i might add), and casting CoB every minute. On fights i know wont be long, i also use Discante, and still dont run out of power.

Draggoz · 01-29-2007, 09:49 AM

Once you get Degradation you will notice a major difference in the rate at which you consume power. I pray that you are not wasting any power by casting Zander's in its broken state as you are just lowering raid/group dps since it increases mitigation on anything above level 50. Tested and acknowledged by the Devs that this is a true statement. If you have multiple bards in the raid you can split up the debuffing duties. Troubs have discante so they can cast that so you can do Clara's and Daro's. If you have more than 1 dirge you can split it up even more. A typical 2 dirge raid will have the MT Dirge casting Daro's/Discante while the DPS dirge can cast Clara's. You need to keep in mind that it may appear as though they stack but they dont so if every bard is casting the same debuff on the mob you are all wasting serious power. Just my thoughts.

XHousedog · 01-29-2007, 11:57 AM

Rarely have Manaprobs during Raids, but it's true that rezzing can get a pain during longer fights if you do not watch your manastatus. Good tips are above. In more dangerous Raidzones where you have todo more rezzing work I use Prisma1+Prisma2 weapons, both have a nice Manaregenerationeffect. when you hit 70 Mark of Awakening is simply a must. When you do more raiding you will have access to nice fabled gear with Flowing Thought effect on it. Beside that always ask the necro on the raid for a ruinous heart (usable 3 times great effect SMILEY

If you have some plats you can spent in on manaadornments and always keep a potion in your backpack and you should be out of troubles.Tydus

firza · 01-29-2007, 02:33 PM

The only power problems I have is on very hard targets when I drop stat buffs.

For harder mobs:

Use mana stone the first moment when you have less then 5% power. make sure you use it every time it comes up.

Use your conjurors and necros medicine early in combat. Don't wait till the end.

Use Vessel early in combat.

This way you will have saved around 20% power before the mobs is 10% down. And this is what you need.

Always keep your power above the mobs health as general rule.

Your dps is rather low. Keep it that way. By the time your doing High DPS on harder mobs, you know they are not hard anymore and its time to move up in the non excisting progression line SMILEY

Antryg Mistrose · 01-29-2007, 06:40 PM

You guys crack me up - I'm not looking for help on conserving power I'm complaining about a stupid design This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost . That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either - have a look at rogues for example) is absurd - and will I hope be addressed in the GU32 changes Hopefully your well meant comments will help new raiders. Immodest I know, but I don't put myself in that category.

Draggoz · 01-29-2007, 07:53 PM

Antryg Mistrose wrote:
This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost .
That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either...

It seems you need to come to the realization that Bards, even more so for Dirges, are the only class that are spefically designed around raiding.

As for not very good debuffs. I had to laugh when I read that. I can't think of any class that can Debuff a mob for 191 Str/Agi with a single spell. Throw a 33% atk spd slow on top of that. But we could just go with your theory of crappy debuffs and watch the tank get the [I cannot control my vocabulary] beat out of him. I also could save myself some more power by not casting a 1300 mitigation debuff so it takes us even longer to kill the F-ing mob.

You could compare Clara's to idk a Brigands Dispatch. Oh yeah that is 3k for 13s out of every 60s. Not to mention the fact that it draws a ton of aggro for the Brig so depending on where he is on the hate list, said mob might just turn around and kill him for the hell of it(Sweet we had dispatch for 2s). Dirge debuffs are just as effective due to the simple fact of they don't generate a ton of aggro.

As far as comparing us to rogues. Give me a break, Rogue/Predator=DPS Scout; Bard="Utility" Scout. Then comes the skill factor a Dirge in the hands of a skilled player who uses everything in his arsenal to its full potential will easily break 1k DPS and depending on the encounter upwards of 2k.

"Draggoz" Dirge 7.0

Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 09:54 AM

Priestbane · 01-29-2007, 08:40 PM

Tydus,

The prismatic weapon and godking weapon do not stack in power regeneration. If you have both, then just use the godking weapon.

SourChikn · 01-29-2007, 09:30 PM

Novatar wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:
This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost .
That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either...

It seems you need to come to the realization that Bards, even more so for Dirges, are the only class that are spefically designed around raiding.

As for not very good debuffs. I had to laugh when I read that. I can't think of any class that can Debuff a mob for 191 Str/Agi with a single spell. Throw a 33% atk spd slow on top of that. But we could just go with your theory of crappy debuffs and watch the tank get the [I cannot control my vocabulary] beat out of him. I also could save myself some more power by not casting a 1300 mitigation debuff so it takes us even longer to kill the F-ing mob.

You could compare Clara's to idk a Brigands Dispatch. Oh yeah that is 3k for 13s out of every 60s. Not to mention the fact that it draws a ton of aggro for the Brig so depending on where he is on the hate list, said mob might just turn around and kill him for the hell of it(Sweet we had dispatch for 2s). Dirge debuffs are just as effective due to the simple fact of they don't generate a ton of aggro.

Dunno if you know this but brigs can do 2200 magical and 1500 physical debuffs maintain'd... then dispatch for 3k+ for 17 secs.... and there is no recurring power cost.... only difference is thiers is single target and ours is group... but really what good is group physical debuffs... cept for zerkers and swashys... and hate isnt a problem with brigs if you set your groups up right.

As far as comparing us to rogues. Give me a break, Rogue/Predator=DPS Scout; Bard="Utility" Scout. Then comes the skill factor a Dirge in the hands of a skilled player who uses everything in his arsenal to its full potential will easily break 1k DPS and depending on the encounter upwards of 2k.

This I agree with... there is no way to compare scouts and bards...bards are utility we do a lil of everything. Sure other scouts can do 2k DPS but remember its because of us bards that they do it. If you cant parse 900 plus you are not trying hard enough.

"Draggoz" Dirge 7.0

Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 09:54 AM

morningmists · 01-30-2007, 02:39 AM

it may not seem like other classes have a recurrent power cost, but that is far from the truth

most other classes debuffs cost in the mid 100s per spell once to cast, this duration will be 24-36 seconds and need to be recast

Antryg Mistrose · 01-30-2007, 04:30 AM

Novatar wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost .That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either...

As for not very good debuffs. I had to laugh when I read that. I can't think of any class that can Debuff a mob for 191 Str/Agi with a single spell. Throw a 33% atk spd slow on top of that. But we could just go with your theory of crappy debuffs and watch the tank get the [I cannot control my vocabulary] beat out of him. I also could save myself some more power by not casting a 1300 mitigation debuff so it takes us even longer to kill the F-ing mob.

Okay, I'll bite - lets pick the classes I am most familar with (none known for particulary good debuffs)Shadow Knight:

Encounter physical mitigation debuff 1680. Lasts 72sec for 142 power
Encounter disease mitigation debuff 1140. 20sec duration 81 power (primarily a taunt so needs a bit of care)
WIS debuff 107 (and 343-573 damage). Lasts 20sec for 70 power
STR debuff 64. 72sec for 39 power

Templar

Divine mitigation debuff 990. 82 power 72sec duration
Physical mitigation debuff 989. 89 power 72sec duration

Illusionist

Mental mitigation debuff 980 (and DoT). 77 power 24sec
Crushing, Piercing, Slashing and Ranged debuff 40. 118 power 72sec
Power stuff that doesn't matter anymore
Stuns, Stiffles, Daze, Mezz, Interrupts

(These aren't all master figures either btw) Still think our power hogs are that uber?

Draggoz · 01-30-2007, 05:50 AM

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

These aren't all master figures either btw) Still think our power hogs are that uber?

Hell yes I do. Every debuff you posted is single target with the exception of Despoil. Your right that is a nice debuff however you forgot to mention 1 minor thing in your little comparitive analysis. Oh yeah its a 2 minute recast, leaving 45s of of no debuff on the mob from the SK end. So to even compare that to Clara's is pathetic.

Almost forgot this part. Templars debuff divine. How many classes do divine damage again? I think its like 2 Templar/Pally.

Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 07:53 PM

Antryg Mistrose · 01-30-2007, 10:27 AM

Novatar wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:
These aren't all master figures either btw) Still think our power hogs are that uber?

Hell yes I do. Every debuff you posted is single target with the exception of Despoil. Your right that is a nice debuff however you forgot to mention 1 minor thing in your little comparitive analysis. Oh yeah its a 2 minute recast, leaving 45s of of no debuff on the mob from the SK end. So to even compare that to Clara's is pathetic.

Almost forgot this part. Templars debuff divine. How many classes do divine damage again? I think its like 2 Templar/Pally.
Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 07:53 PM

Keep your illusions, I'm done.

Vincenzo · 01-30-2007, 02:26 PM

Degredate makes a big difference , and I recommend you get this ASAP as it makes keep those debuffs up much easier on long encounters.

01-28-2007, 04:59 AM	#1
Antryg Mistrose Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 893	Not the ubberest of raids - a 2 group wander through CoAA, but at level 61 it still gave the mender a bit of retirement money. Proudest moment was when I used my trusty AppIV Hymn of Horror to stop those nasty Sunchild messengers getting away (my only spell below Adept3/Master (nice being a 70 jeweler) oh well except for Noxious Concerto and Tomb's Stillness - but nobody takes them seriosly)Anyway - I thought I'd do the proper dirgey thing and debuff the mobs into oblivion: Whip out my shiny new Raincaller and start plinking away Verlien's Keen of Despair - need to be inside 15m range ever 20 odd seconds - easy peasy Daro's, ah thats better - nice long range = safe. What????? 31 power every 6 seconds ! Disheartening Discante - another 33 power every 6 seconds Clara's Cataclysmic Cacopohny (love that name) - but you guessed it - 28 power every 6 seconds Zander's - Nope. I no silly, I read the forums - it stays firmly off my hotbars (19 power every 6 seconds saved:smileywink:) Okay, now we braves the AoEs and dash in: Tarven's Cantankerous Verse Shroud and Garsin's . What the ??? I want to cast Scream of Death !!! But having raiding pretensions I've respecced BladeDance + DKTM - no Bump for me:smileysad: Shrieking Stab - While I'm in the vicinity and all - then high tail it out of there So I'm back to plinking at range, watching my power dwindle at 58 pts every 6 seconds (I dont have any FT and only 1 pt in Bria's currently) - dashing in now and then to hit Tarven's and Garsin's - and rezzing the odd lowbie Swashbuckler.Then the priest in our group goes down. No problemo - dirge to the rescue..... Oh,oh - no power and Elegy at Death's Door is 231:smileysad: Manastone ! 150 - nope still not enough, Master's Clarity potion (not high enough for the good stuff yet). Still not enough !!!Oh well I'll just stand here a moment and let some power regen......... Plink, plink, plinkHuh, my power is back to zero !!! @#$%#$% Daro/Disheartening/ClaraSome nice Dirge/Troubador "Flared Royal Bracers" dropped, and as I was the only Bard in the raid, it wasn't a total loss :smileywink:So do ubberer raiders have these problems? Not enough power to do much attacking once those vampiric green spells are cast No way without giving up a WIS debuff every minute to get off our token DPS spell (Scream of Death) __________________ Illusionist//Paladin/Dirge/Templar Jeweler/Sage/Alchemist/Prov

01-28-2007, 06:16 AM	#3
Antryg Mistrose Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 893	Thanks for taking the time to reply - though I think I covered all your points (bar MoA which is a level 70 item) in my post. Current spells do not look well designed (and I'm kinda hoping a developer will consider that in the changes) 4 ongoing power cost spells is ridiculous - even Illusionists (who have vastly superior regen) only have one!The comparison to raiding as a Templar or Illusionist (I hardly ever raid as a SK - who needs yet another useless plate tank after all) is marked. It was not a lot of fun Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on 01-28-2007 03:13 AM __________________ Illusionist//Paladin/Dirge/Templar Jeweler/Sage/Alchemist/Prov

01-28-2007, 01:04 PM	#4
Priestbane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,527	The ongoing power cost songs used to take a conc each... this is much better for us, while still enforcing the "choose, bard!" idea. You don't have to run them all. Also, Manastone is (unlike the DoF manastone) a use early, use often item. Don't wait till you're out of mana to use it. And finally, the final degredate ability (dirge) reduces the mana cost of all your debuffs. Stack yourself with a coercer or illusionist, and you could maintain all 4 (if you wanted to) relatively easily, without AAs. As was stated, gear will certainly assist. Well designed? I like it. Well implemented... not so much, but hey, they say they're lookin at scaling. =) Barbara Hambly fan? __________________

01-28-2007, 05:18 PM	#6
Whysprr_Wyrd Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 908	Since we're on the subject, could someone succintly summarize the manastone-like items that're available? Whysp __________________

01-28-2007, 08:25 PM	#7
Antryg Mistrose Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 893	As a raiding templar (in a guild very short of bards/enchanters - which is why my illusionst has never raided grouped with a troubador and my Dirge will be darn lucky to raid with an enchanter ...) I'm very aware of power: Manastone - lowbie HQ - Ambush this cute little ratonga who wanders around near the Giant's in Thundering Steppes and steal his orders. Stiletto is the rodent's name Vessle of Fyr'Un (or something of similar spelling) - tedious T6 tramp through living tombs (ugly zone) - quest pickup is at a location that does not help sufferers of vertigo. If you have a die hard guild then on a Godking raid (horrid eye harvesting) its possible to upgrade it by 'Overfilling'. A lot fiddlier to use than Manastone as you can't just drag it to your hotbar, but actually have to equip it. (you'd be amazed at the weird things people leave in their charm slots when raiding even - harvesting tools, tradeskilleng enhancers, Priest rez thingies, Chameleon totems ... No sense of style) Summoners - both Necromancers and Conjurers have a temporary thingy which gives you 3 charges to convert health to power. You can no longer have different qualities in your inventory (say AdeptIII and Master) so need to nag these folk often Clarity or Power potions (clarity give more power, but its over a longer time rather than instant) - these are made by alchemists and the super duper one is Grandmaster (made from T7 adept 3 spell byproducts so a bit pricey) - cheaper are Master (T6) or Exceptional (T7 common) Totems - out of combat only - woodworkers make 'em - forget the names Drinks - the 'good stuff' is Bosprite's and GiggleGibbery juice - as they are the longest lasting and give stats (provisioner made). Also out of conbat only Quest 893432 or so in Claymore line (okay I might be exagherating slightly) (and no I will not run a spell checker on that) - totem that restores all power (there is also a health one) - charm slot item. Need to be out combat though (just after a raid wipe for example :smileywink:). Be nice to your friendly neighbourhood enchanter - Their first KoS AA allows them to give (30sec later) 10% to power for both them and you. If your enchanter is an Illusionist and you promise to melee, you have a got a better chance of getting them to cast this on you, rather than some unworthy like the MT (Its one less target change they need to do to get their melee based spell proc to go off)/ If you are really good, they may even cast dynamism on you. If you have the misfortune to be being beat on (or are rather coordinated and cast your Fyr'Un thingy enchanters in group can also use there bloodlines spell for a bit of extra power - Manacloak). If you aren't going to melee a lot then Prismatic 1.0 (or 2.0 see above die hard guild) is more or less one groupable now (Darathar can still beat up overconfident 70 guardians :smileywink:) This is pretty darn good regen (Godking = 2.0 is only 1 pt more). But its grey at mid 60's up (Godking isn't) Mark of Awakened Instinct ('cause SoE is too stingy to give us the "Intellect" one) - IF you can con 23 somebodys into doing the raid these days. Get a provisioner to spill some "Metaphysical" food on your natty cape - FT3 adornment (rather pricey unless you are on good terms with a T7 transmuter) If you don't have a natty cape - Well firstly what are you doing playing a dirge? Head off to your nearest tailer for a FT3 one. Weapon adornment - "Phantom" in the name these can give a power proc. Scintillating is the T7 expensive one If you are evil and can stomach the quest (I'm not really so I deleted it and followed Sol Ro instead on my Shadow Knight) Innoruk's cloak has a power proc There are plenty of other dropped FT bits and pieces floating around - mainly KoS zones. I vaguely remember a FT2 ring from am easily soloable quest in Bonemire - some silly gnome stuck down a ledge on Shattered Weir. Soe Seem to think FT (flowing thought) is valuable, so these items generally have otherwise rubbish stats. There is bound to be some FT somewhere on Dirge class armour/relic Thats all I can reember offhand. I think I've spelt them right so eq2i or AlakazamWhatsItsName should have detailsI haven't done the maths (mainly as I can't remember how long a tick is), but those power draining debuffs would I'm guessing pretty much chew through all the FT you can get your mitts on (which for most mortals (even dirges) requires grouping with an enchanter as well as items to cap) FT 102? at level 70 (half of which can be from items) is my vague recollection from a long ago developer post. Succinct? Not a chance :smileywink: Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on 01-28-2007 03:56 PM __________________ Illusionist//Paladin/Dirge/Templar Jeweler/Sage/Alchemist/Prov

01-28-2007, 05:17 AM	#2
TalanRM Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	If you are running low on power conserve it a Dirge on a raid, even if that means only autoattacking. Power is best spent on maintaining debuffs, including the flank attack DPS debuff, and rezzing. Gear will obviously help allot as you keep raiding. Our Nightcord gloves have a little mana regen on them and are a common drop off early Labs mobs. Also, the Mark of Awakening quest another 'easy gain' mana regen item. If your raid has them, make sure you get a heart from your necromancer and an essence shard from your conjuror. Breaking out the old mana stone and buying power potions also helps - most raid guilds will have alchemists that make them for cost or even free. You could also consider using Int or Agility potions for a small power increase until you get fully raid geared. EoF AAs can increase the mana regen on your Bria's buff (58/tick with Master 1 and 5AAs in it) and half your stealth casting time down to 1 second. In long fights, especially if you need to rez allot power can become an issue, as allot of Dirge abilities have comparatively high power costs. However, it is really a case trying to balance out your power consumption. If you feel power is going to be an issue for a particular fight ignore the DPS side of your combat arts and stick to debuffing and rezzing - those things can make or break a raid, whereas a Dirges personal DPS is unlikely to turn a fight.

01-28-2007, 02:11 PM	#5
TalanRM Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	I guess we have a difference of approach here. The only time I feel that I have to do anything particular is during a difficult raid (or Nizara). Even in trio groups without a proper tank yellow ^^^ heroic groups just disintegrate in most instances. Dirges will use power faster than most classes, but once you get geared up and if you concentrate on debuffs, rezzing and health top ups with Oration of Sacrifice and CoB rather than DPS (not saying you arn't just drawing a comparison between Dirges power use on longer raid encounters and that of most other classes) then the only time power should be an issue is if allot of rezzing is required. Message Edited by TalanRM on 01-28-2007 01:11 AM

01-29-2007, 07:56 AM	#8
TraxVivendi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 13	Like it was said earlier in the thread, conserve your power.There are several steps that can aid you in this, first of all get Bria's maxed in EoF AA. This one's enough to maintain two power draining debuffs if you also have Degredate (last AA choice on Degredate tree)Get some proc items that drain power. I use, V'Ncenzi's Voluminous Cape and Silver Sword of Rage with Scintillating Phantom Handle. I know there are more power tapping items outthere, just haven't had a chance to grab any of em without losing something, like stats or resistances. The two I use, was parsed to drain nearly 20k power in less than an hour killing trash in EH. Have to say, I was in MT group at that time, so had a templar with 25% proc increase together with my own Luck of the Dirge.With this setup, i can virtually mash buttons as i please. The fight has to be very very long for me to ever run out of power, while constantly having both Clara's and Daro's, Shrieking Stab, Tarven's, Scream of Death (using shroud i might add), and casting CoB every minute. On fights i know wont be long, i also use Discante, and still dont run out of power. __________________

01-29-2007, 09:49 AM	#9
Draggoz Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 70	Once you get Degradation you will notice a major difference in the rate at which you consume power. I pray that you are not wasting any power by casting Zander's in its broken state as you are just lowering raid/group dps since it increases mitigation on anything above level 50. Tested and acknowledged by the Devs that this is a true statement. If you have multiple bards in the raid you can split up the debuffing duties. Troubs have discante so they can cast that so you can do Clara's and Daro's. If you have more than 1 dirge you can split it up even more. A typical 2 dirge raid will have the MT Dirge casting Daro's/Discante while the DPS dirge can cast Clara's. You need to keep in mind that it may appear as though they stack but they dont so if every bard is casting the same debuff on the mob you are all wasting serious power. Just my thoughts.

01-29-2007, 11:57 AM	#10
XHousedog Lord Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 24	Rarely have Manaprobs during Raids, but it's true that rezzing can get a pain during longer fights if you do not watch your manastatus. Good tips are above. In more dangerous Raidzones where you have todo more rezzing work I use Prisma1+Prisma2 weapons, both have a nice Manaregenerationeffect. when you hit 70 Mark of Awakening is simply a must. When you do more raiding you will have access to nice fabled gear with Flowing Thought effect on it. Beside that always ask the necro on the raid for a ruinous heart (usable 3 times great effect If you have some plats you can spent in on manaadornments and always keep a potion in your backpack and you should be out of troubles.Tydus

01-29-2007, 02:33 PM	#11
firza Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 640	The only power problems I have is on very hard targets when I drop stat buffs. For harder mobs: Use mana stone the first moment when you have less then 5% power. make sure you use it every time it comes up. Use your conjurors and necros medicine early in combat. Don't wait till the end. Use Vessel early in combat. This way you will have saved around 20% power before the mobs is 10% down. And this is what you need. Always keep your power above the mobs health as general rule. Your dps is rather low. Keep it that way. By the time your doing High DPS on harder mobs, you know they are not hard anymore and its time to move up in the non excisting progression line

01-29-2007, 06:40 PM	#12
Antryg Mistrose Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 893	You guys crack me up - I'm not looking for help on conserving power I'm complaining about a stupid design This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost . That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either - have a look at rogues for example) is absurd - and will I hope be addressed in the GU32 changes Hopefully your well meant comments will help new raiders. Immodest I know, but I don't put myself in that category. __________________ Illusionist//Paladin/Dirge/Templar Jeweler/Sage/Alchemist/Prov

01-29-2007, 07:53 PM	#13
Draggoz Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 70	Antryg Mistrose wrote: This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost . That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either... It seems you need to come to the realization that Bards, even more so for Dirges, are the only class that are spefically designed around raiding. As for not very good debuffs. I had to laugh when I read that. I can't think of any class that can Debuff a mob for 191 Str/Agi with a single spell. Throw a 33% atk spd slow on top of that. But we could just go with your theory of crappy debuffs and watch the tank get the [I cannot control my vocabulary] beat out of him. I also could save myself some more power by not casting a 1300 mitigation debuff so it takes us even longer to kill the F-ing mob. You could compare Clara's to idk a Brigands Dispatch. Oh yeah that is 3k for 13s out of every 60s. Not to mention the fact that it draws a ton of aggro for the Brig so depending on where he is on the hate list, said mob might just turn around and kill him for the hell of it(Sweet we had dispatch for 2s). Dirge debuffs are just as effective due to the simple fact of they don't generate a ton of aggro. As far as comparing us to rogues. Give me a break, Rogue/Predator=DPS Scout; Bard="Utility" Scout. Then comes the skill factor a Dirge in the hands of a skilled player who uses everything in his arsenal to its full potential will easily break 1k DPS and depending on the encounter upwards of 2k. "Draggoz" Dirge 7.0 Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 09:54 AM

01-29-2007, 08:40 PM	#14
Priestbane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,527	Tydus, The prismatic weapon and godking weapon do not stack in power regeneration. If you have both, then just use the godking weapon. __________________

01-29-2007, 09:30 PM	#15
SourChikn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 103	Novatar wrote: Antryg Mistrose wrote: This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost . That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either... It seems you need to come to the realization that Bards, even more so for Dirges, are the only class that are spefically designed around raiding. As for not very good debuffs. I had to laugh when I read that. I can't think of any class that can Debuff a mob for 191 Str/Agi with a single spell. Throw a 33% atk spd slow on top of that. But we could just go with your theory of crappy debuffs and watch the tank get the [I cannot control my vocabulary] beat out of him. I also could save myself some more power by not casting a 1300 mitigation debuff so it takes us even longer to kill the F-ing mob. You could compare Clara's to idk a Brigands Dispatch. Oh yeah that is 3k for 13s out of every 60s. Not to mention the fact that it draws a ton of aggro for the Brig so depending on where he is on the hate list, said mob might just turn around and kill him for the hell of it(Sweet we had dispatch for 2s). Dirge debuffs are just as effective due to the simple fact of they don't generate a ton of aggro. Dunno if you know this but brigs can do 2200 magical and 1500 physical debuffs maintain'd... then dispatch for 3k+ for 17 secs.... and there is no recurring power cost.... only difference is thiers is single target and ours is group... but really what good is group physical debuffs... cept for zerkers and swashys... and hate isnt a problem with brigs if you set your groups up right. As far as comparing us to rogues. Give me a break, Rogue/Predator=DPS Scout; Bard="Utility" Scout. Then comes the skill factor a Dirge in the hands of a skilled player who uses everything in his arsenal to its full potential will easily break 1k DPS and depending on the encounter upwards of 2k. This I agree with... there is no way to compare scouts and bards...bards are utility we do a lil of everything. Sure other scouts can do 2k DPS but remember its because of us bards that they do it. If you cant parse 900 plus you are not trying hard enough. "Draggoz" Dirge 7.0 Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 09:54 AM __________________ That ~ Dirge of Exordium ~ Everfrost

01-30-2007, 02:39 AM	#16
morningmists Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 126	it may not seem like other classes have a recurrent power cost, but that is far from the truth most other classes debuffs cost in the mid 100s per spell once to cast, this duration will be 24-36 seconds and need to be recast

01-30-2007, 04:30 AM	#17
Antryg Mistrose Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 893	Novatar wrote: Antryg Mistrose wrote:This is the only class I've played (or noticed when making spells for) that has more than a token spelll with an ongoing power cost .That they are only debuffs (and not terribly good ones either... As for not very good debuffs. I had to laugh when I read that. I can't think of any class that can Debuff a mob for 191 Str/Agi with a single spell. Throw a 33% atk spd slow on top of that. But we could just go with your theory of crappy debuffs and watch the tank get the [I cannot control my vocabulary] beat out of him. I also could save myself some more power by not casting a 1300 mitigation debuff so it takes us even longer to kill the F-ing mob. Okay, I'll bite - lets pick the classes I am most familar with (none known for particulary good debuffs)Shadow Knight: Encounter physical mitigation debuff 1680. Lasts 72sec for 142 power Encounter disease mitigation debuff 1140. 20sec duration 81 power (primarily a taunt so needs a bit of care) WIS debuff 107 (and 343-573 damage). Lasts 20sec for 70 power STR debuff 64. 72sec for 39 power Templar Divine mitigation debuff 990. 82 power 72sec duration Physical mitigation debuff 989. 89 power 72sec duration Illusionist Mental mitigation debuff 980 (and DoT). 77 power 24sec Crushing, Piercing, Slashing and Ranged debuff 40. 118 power 72sec Power stuff that doesn't matter anymore Stuns, Stiffles, Daze, Mezz, Interrupts (These aren't all master figures either btw) Still think our power hogs are that uber? __________________ Illusionist//Paladin/Dirge/Templar Jeweler/Sage/Alchemist/Prov

01-30-2007, 05:50 AM	#18
Draggoz Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 70	Antryg Mistrose wrote: These aren't all master figures either btw) Still think our power hogs are that uber? Hell yes I do. Every debuff you posted is single target with the exception of Despoil. Your right that is a nice debuff however you forgot to mention 1 minor thing in your little comparitive analysis. Oh yeah its a 2 minute recast, leaving 45s of of no debuff on the mob from the SK end. So to even compare that to Clara's is pathetic. Almost forgot this part. Templars debuff divine. How many classes do divine damage again? I think its like 2 Templar/Pally. Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 07:53 PM

01-30-2007, 10:27 AM	#19
Antryg Mistrose Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 893	Novatar wrote: Antryg Mistrose wrote: These aren't all master figures either btw) Still think our power hogs are that uber? Hell yes I do. Every debuff you posted is single target with the exception of Despoil. Your right that is a nice debuff however you forgot to mention 1 minor thing in your little comparitive analysis. Oh yeah its a 2 minute recast, leaving 45s of of no debuff on the mob from the SK end. So to even compare that to Clara's is pathetic. Almost forgot this part. Templars debuff divine. How many classes do divine damage again? I think its like 2 Templar/Pally. Message Edited by Novatar on 01-29-2007 07:53 PM Keep your illusions, I'm done. __________________ Illusionist//Paladin/Dirge/Templar Jeweler/Sage/Alchemist/Prov

01-30-2007, 02:26 PM	#20
Vincenzo Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 150	Degredate makes a big difference , and I recommend you get this ASAP as it makes keep those debuffs up much easier on long encounters.