Splitting the bard class was the worst decision for us that SOE could have made...

goyom · 03-23-2006, 02:29 AM

Splitting the bard class was the worst decision for us that SOE could have made...

There I said it and I mean it. This class was not meant to be cut in half. It destroys the user community.

There is a total lack of decent websites and resources to track stats, spells, and bard general terminology and hints.

Since the scoutsanctuary.com closed, its just this location.

Where are all the bards? Why does noone goto eqdiva?? What happened to Reeds wonderful spreadsheet? Where is the Concert Hall??

Its enough to make me consider a return to eq1.

/rant off

Priestbane · 03-23-2006, 03:07 AM

Yikes!

Well, I wouldn't have played an eq1 bard again. I love the dirge flavor. To each their own, I guess!

EDIT: eqdiva is for eq1 bards, so why don't people go there anymore? Not sure, not something that seems to be appropos to the eq2 dirge/troubador...

Message Edited by Godstalk on 03-22-200602:08 PM

Zberyn · 03-23-2006, 03:10 AM

The outside communities aren't needed so much, since there are plenty of conversations taking place right here on the official boards. SoE had a list of songs up, and should hurry and get them back up IMO. EQ2 classes are far from being as complex as EQ1 classes were, even the Bard classes vs the Bard class.

On the flip side, spells and CAs are a bit more comlex than they were in EQ1 IMO, simply due to the Tier system and also the quality levels of App I through Master II and it would require a good bit of extra data to track all levels of every song and CA. Add to that the fact that EQ1 had things like instruments and worn mods that could effect songs, whereas to date EQ2 does not have that and you'll come to realize that comparing the EQ1 community and classes to EQ2 at all is like comparing apples to oranges.

The Dirge and Troubador of EQ2 are NOT the Bard of EQ1. The communities of EQ1 fit the build of EQ1, however these forums of EQ2 support the build of EQ2. While EQ2 does take strategy and skill, it is far from the way EQ1 was, IMO.

Bards aren't a hugely popular class to play IMO because a large percentage of the population either doesn't understand what either Bard class really can do and and a lot of would-be Bards grow frustrated. Those who want to be more specialized will most likely go back to one of the more traditional classes. A Bard player who wants to do more DPS may roll up a Ranger or Assassin, a Bard player who wants to solo better may roll up a Sorc or Conj, etc. Only those who can really appreciate the Bard classes will stick with it, and it would be my guess that the number of people who fall in that catagory is small. With the smaller numbers, there is even less of a chance for an outside community to thrive, even if it were an all Bard site that was designed for both the Troubies and Dirges. That said, again, the EQ2 official boards make a great place for all of us Bards to get together and converse and the split of the Bard classes had to be so that the ballance of the old archtype system was met. Both classes are fleshed out with their own line-up of songs and CAs, and both classes have their place in this game, we're just different flavors of the same subclass.

Sorry for the rambling, but I think I got what I meant across. If you want a community, join on in on the conversations right here on the Dirge or Troubie boards. I've seen plenty of good questions asked and answers from all levels of players.

ravenscale · 03-23-2006, 04:35 AM

Zberyn wrote:
The outside communities aren't needed so much, since there are plenty of conversations taking place right here on the official boards. SoE had a list of songs up, and should hurry and get them back up IMO. EQ2 classes are far from being as complex as EQ1 classes were, even the Bard classes vs the Bard class.
On the flip side, spells and CAs are a bit more comlex than they were in EQ1 IMO, simply due to the Tier system and also the quality levels of App I through Master II and it would require a good bit of extra data to track all levels of every song and CA. Add to that the fact that EQ1 had things like instruments and worn mods that could effect songs, whereas to date EQ2 does not have that and you'll come to realize that comparing the EQ1 community and classes to EQ2 at all is like comparing apples to oranges.
The Dirge and Troubador of EQ2 are NOT the Bard of EQ1. The communities of EQ1 fit the build of EQ1, however these forums of EQ2 support the build of EQ2. While EQ2 does take strategy and skill, it is far from the way EQ1 was, IMO.
Bards aren't a hugely popular class to play IMO because a large percentage of the population either doesn't understand what either Bard class really can do and and a lot of would-be Bards grow frustrated. Those who want to be more specialized will most likely go back to one of the more traditional classes. A Bard player who wants to do more DPS may roll up a Ranger or Assassin, a Bard player who wants to solo better may roll up a Sorc or Conj, etc. Only those who can really appreciate the Bard classes will stick with it, and it would be my guess that the number of people who fall in that catagory is small. With the smaller numbers, there is even less of a chance for an outside community to thrive, even if it were an all Bard site that was designed for both the Troubies and Dirges. That said, again, the EQ2 official boards make a great place for all of us Bards to get together and converse and the split of the Bard classes had to be so that the ballance of the old archtype system was met. Both classes are fleshed out with their own line-up of songs and CAs, and both classes have their place in this game, we're just different flavors of the same subclass.
Sorry for the rambling, but I think I got what I meant across. If you want a community, join on in on the conversations right here on the Dirge or Troubie boards. I've seen plenty of good questions asked and answers from all levels of players.

um disagree on a very small point i love my bard but we did get HOSED in the solo buff/ dps depo but still wouldent trade murrcs for anything when i really feel the need to dps i play my alt brigand lol

Goresling · 03-23-2006, 07:04 AM

Plus, the fact that there are so few bards, it makes getting the bard drops in group way easier. For example: I'm the only bard in the guild at this present time. When Dirge/Troub items drop, I get them for minimum DKP, caues I'm not fighting against anyone else. I love my Dirge. It's a well rounded class that helps out any group you can come into contact with. Yeah, we may have had a few nerfs against us, but over all, I can't think of anything I would change. A lot of peeps don't like the AA line, but I did just fine without the AA's for the first 60 levels, and I'll do even better with the few AA's that I enjoy from the line. But that's just me putting in my 2cp.

And to go back to the main topic. Does anyone really MISS having to twist songs together? Just preventing me from getting carpal tunnels sooner than expected. : )

Pidgin, 69 dirge

Permafrost Server

Lornick · 03-23-2006, 10:09 PM

Zberyn summed it up fairly well. Basically there isn't a big online bard community because there just isn't the need.

goyom · 03-27-2006, 07:08 PM

I dont really agree with the lack of need.

I was on a bard chat channel on my server Saturday and of the 20 or so bards in the channel (level 20-70) quite a few admitted to not knowing what a song really does, or doubting if it really functions as described.

Zberyn · 03-27-2006, 08:12 PM

goyom wrote:
I dont really agree with the lack of need.

I was on a bard chat channel on my server Saturday and of the 20 or so bards in the channel (level 20-70) quite a few admitted to not knowing what a song really does, or doubting if it really functions as described.

Through the 20s is a good time to learn what each song or CA does, then check your logs and your stats and see how they actually perform. Bards are not simple classes, yet that's what makes them one of the best classes. If you take the time to learn how to play your Bard you will have achieved something in the pixel world. How many of those 20 or so Bards have really taken the time to delve their spells and learn what they do, then cast or use the CA or song and check how it really works? Also, how many of those 20 Bards have gone back through older threads on this forum and read what the more experienced Bards have posted? How many of them have posted up intelligent threads asking for a bit of information here?

Bards are a very multidimensional class and require a good bit of attention to learn how to play well, but there is definitely information all around that will help and a number of people on this forum routinely answer questions from newer Bards.

If you really want answers to the questions of how effective your songs and CAs are, download one of the parsers and play with it some. Test the debuffs out, see what the results are. Check your player info with and without each buff and see how they effect you. Hit your CAs and see how they actually act. Also, if you are really new to the class, take a chunk of time and go back through all the Dirge threads and read up, including the class issue thread and the like. Consider against that what has changed with the LUs from the LU reports and take the time to learn the class. Get the other 20ish Bards to do the same, then communicate some and you'll develop a community of Bards on your server who can share information.

Also, if you are THAT depressed about not having a non-Official board community, start one of your own, promote it and build up the information that you'd want to see on a community site. Perhaps if you really believe there should be one, you should be the one to build it? Most of us just rely on this board right here for our information, and then converse with the other Bards if we feel we need to bump heads with each other. Perhaps the owners of the old Bard sites have simply decided that there is no longer a need for seperate sites and that their time is best spent doing other things? If you want the community, then build it, either on some site or amongst your peers through chat communication.

Lack of knowledge is cured by research. Research in EQ2 can be done by examining your spells and testing them out. No need for a fancy website and shiny boards to do that - unless you want a site where you can just have everything explained to you. In the end, that route only serves to cheat you out of a good learning experience.

Maleynt · 03-28-2006, 10:28 PM

I just stumbled across this dirge wiki while looking for dirge info. It obviously is in need of some additional info.Perhaps one way to start some bonding among dirges would be to help fill this in? Personally, as a young-ish player I was hoping to go there and find some advice and tips, and while it's not a "community" per se, it would certainly be a place to help up-and-coming digres learn some sage advice from the more experienced of our class.Just a thought... SMILEY

Krescendo · 03-28-2006, 10:51 PM

I really miss "The Scouts Sanctuary".

A forum only website...heavily modded is not ideal in my mind, but certainly better than nothing.

EQDiva, in its heyday was an ideal site. People wrote guides that were invaluable for a very difficult class. There were active and lively discussions on every topic. Bottom line is an EQ2 bard is not a hard to play, as the EQ1 bard, in some respects. You don't have to choose what songs to have 'up'. You don't have all the wild soloing strats. Its easier to know whats in what zone in EQ2. The EQ1 universe was huge with much more level diversity in many zone. EQ2 maps has greatly simplified moving around.

Ogaming has filled many of the needs for a dedicated website for any class, couple that with, as others have said, the scarcity of bards, and I see why there really isn't one.

Nevertheless, a dedicated non-Sony site would be nice. But I don't think I'd spend a lot of time reading and writing guides in EQ2, since its not as necessary and the revamps that sweep through EQ2 would invalidate many of them.

SeregWethrin · 04-03-2006, 08:28 AM

Maethor the troubador here and I wanted to add something. I am planning on creating a bard site for eq2 as I was disappointed with the lack of information. In the old days of eq1 i used to know more about everyclass than anyone else just because I helped write for many of the fansites and also played so many classes up. For me though I will be working over the next few days from the college on a bard site and will have a test site up later this week i would like help with some of the more complicated problems i have if anyone who knows php wants to help i have some ideas on how to impliment a system if i cant find someone with php i am good enough with html to do it, but it would be hard to have others update the site which is why i would like someone with php knowledge or asp .net or C# i will eventually be able to learn php as i know a little though.edit I also need someone to help with higher level guides as I am not currently high enough but i do have some high pvp server dirge and troub guildies who are really good for that. BTW if you want to talk message maethor on nafagen

Message Edited by SeregWethrin on 04-02-200609:29 PM

Mystiq · 04-04-2006, 12:04 AM

Kinda confused on what the OP is actually complaining about here. What does the separation of the bard into Troubadour and Dirge have to do with the lack of a player run community sites?I'm hoping you guys don't think troubs and dirges aren't distinct enough from one another. From what I've seen, it's quite the opposite. Take a look at the priest classes, like shaman for instance, if you want to see a watered down class separation :smileywink:.As for the lack of player class community sites, the fact that we have a centralized forum such as this is probably the reason extra sites haven't popped up much. Efforts have been made in the past for some classes, with little result....just not enough traffic. I think with the proper use of these forums, and ww chat channels, that's all the community you really need for this game. Also, EQ2 is still young. I doubt the Druid's Grove or The Safehouse popped up overnight, and they certainly weren't what they are today without a lot of time and effort in and out of game.Nestled inside the whines, flames and rants, we've got a great community here :smileyhappy:.Regards,

03-23-2006, 03:07 AM	#2
Priestbane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,527	Yikes! Well, I wouldn't have played an eq1 bard again. I love the dirge flavor. To each their own, I guess! EDIT: eqdiva is for eq1 bards, so why don't people go there anymore? Not sure, not something that seems to be appropos to the eq2 dirge/troubador... Message Edited by Godstalk on 03-22-200602:08 PM __________________

03-23-2006, 03:10 AM	#3
Zberyn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	The outside communities aren't needed so much, since there are plenty of conversations taking place right here on the official boards. SoE had a list of songs up, and should hurry and get them back up IMO. EQ2 classes are far from being as complex as EQ1 classes were, even the Bard classes vs the Bard class. On the flip side, spells and CAs are a bit more comlex than they were in EQ1 IMO, simply due to the Tier system and also the quality levels of App I through Master II and it would require a good bit of extra data to track all levels of every song and CA. Add to that the fact that EQ1 had things like instruments and worn mods that could effect songs, whereas to date EQ2 does not have that and you'll come to realize that comparing the EQ1 community and classes to EQ2 at all is like comparing apples to oranges. The Dirge and Troubador of EQ2 are NOT the Bard of EQ1. The communities of EQ1 fit the build of EQ1, however these forums of EQ2 support the build of EQ2. While EQ2 does take strategy and skill, it is far from the way EQ1 was, IMO. Bards aren't a hugely popular class to play IMO because a large percentage of the population either doesn't understand what either Bard class really can do and and a lot of would-be Bards grow frustrated. Those who want to be more specialized will most likely go back to one of the more traditional classes. A Bard player who wants to do more DPS may roll up a Ranger or Assassin, a Bard player who wants to solo better may roll up a Sorc or Conj, etc. Only those who can really appreciate the Bard classes will stick with it, and it would be my guess that the number of people who fall in that catagory is small. With the smaller numbers, there is even less of a chance for an outside community to thrive, even if it were an all Bard site that was designed for both the Troubies and Dirges. That said, again, the EQ2 official boards make a great place for all of us Bards to get together and converse and the split of the Bard classes had to be so that the ballance of the old archtype system was met. Both classes are fleshed out with their own line-up of songs and CAs, and both classes have their place in this game, we're just different flavors of the same subclass. Sorry for the rambling, but I think I got what I meant across. If you want a community, join on in on the conversations right here on the Dirge or Troubie boards. I've seen plenty of good questions asked and answers from all levels of players. __________________ Syrisa D'Akyr Berserker and Weaponsmith of Neriak Antonia Bayle Server

03-23-2006, 04:35 AM	#4
ravenscale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 173	Zberyn wrote: The outside communities aren't needed so much, since there are plenty of conversations taking place right here on the official boards. SoE had a list of songs up, and should hurry and get them back up IMO. EQ2 classes are far from being as complex as EQ1 classes were, even the Bard classes vs the Bard class. On the flip side, spells and CAs are a bit more comlex than they were in EQ1 IMO, simply due to the Tier system and also the quality levels of App I through Master II and it would require a good bit of extra data to track all levels of every song and CA. Add to that the fact that EQ1 had things like instruments and worn mods that could effect songs, whereas to date EQ2 does not have that and you'll come to realize that comparing the EQ1 community and classes to EQ2 at all is like comparing apples to oranges. The Dirge and Troubador of EQ2 are NOT the Bard of EQ1. The communities of EQ1 fit the build of EQ1, however these forums of EQ2 support the build of EQ2. While EQ2 does take strategy and skill, it is far from the way EQ1 was, IMO. Bards aren't a hugely popular class to play IMO because a large percentage of the population either doesn't understand what either Bard class really can do and and a lot of would-be Bards grow frustrated. Those who want to be more specialized will most likely go back to one of the more traditional classes. A Bard player who wants to do more DPS may roll up a Ranger or Assassin, a Bard player who wants to solo better may roll up a Sorc or Conj, etc. Only those who can really appreciate the Bard classes will stick with it, and it would be my guess that the number of people who fall in that catagory is small. With the smaller numbers, there is even less of a chance for an outside community to thrive, even if it were an all Bard site that was designed for both the Troubies and Dirges. That said, again, the EQ2 official boards make a great place for all of us Bards to get together and converse and the split of the Bard classes had to be so that the ballance of the old archtype system was met. Both classes are fleshed out with their own line-up of songs and CAs, and both classes have their place in this game, we're just different flavors of the same subclass. Sorry for the rambling, but I think I got what I meant across. If you want a community, join on in on the conversations right here on the Dirge or Troubie boards. I've seen plenty of good questions asked and answers from all levels of players. um disagree on a very small point i love my bard but we did get HOSED in the solo buff/ dps depo but still wouldent trade murrcs for anything when i really feel the need to dps i play my alt brigand lol __________________

03-23-2006, 10:09 PM	#6
Lornick Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 1,114	Zberyn summed it up fairly well. Basically there isn't a big online bard community because there just isn't the need. __________________

03-27-2006, 08:12 PM	#8
Zberyn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	goyom wrote: I dont really agree with the lack of need. I was on a bard chat channel on my server Saturday and of the 20 or so bards in the channel (level 20-70) quite a few admitted to not knowing what a song really does, or doubting if it really functions as described. Through the 20s is a good time to learn what each song or CA does, then check your logs and your stats and see how they actually perform. Bards are not simple classes, yet that's what makes them one of the best classes. If you take the time to learn how to play your Bard you will have achieved something in the pixel world. How many of those 20 or so Bards have really taken the time to delve their spells and learn what they do, then cast or use the CA or song and check how it really works? Also, how many of those 20 Bards have gone back through older threads on this forum and read what the more experienced Bards have posted? How many of them have posted up intelligent threads asking for a bit of information here? Bards are a very multidimensional class and require a good bit of attention to learn how to play well, but there is definitely information all around that will help and a number of people on this forum routinely answer questions from newer Bards. If you really want answers to the questions of how effective your songs and CAs are, download one of the parsers and play with it some. Test the debuffs out, see what the results are. Check your player info with and without each buff and see how they effect you. Hit your CAs and see how they actually act. Also, if you are really new to the class, take a chunk of time and go back through all the Dirge threads and read up, including the class issue thread and the like. Consider against that what has changed with the LUs from the LU reports and take the time to learn the class. Get the other 20ish Bards to do the same, then communicate some and you'll develop a community of Bards on your server who can share information. Also, if you are THAT depressed about not having a non-Official board community, start one of your own, promote it and build up the information that you'd want to see on a community site. Perhaps if you really believe there should be one, you should be the one to build it? Most of us just rely on this board right here for our information, and then converse with the other Bards if we feel we need to bump heads with each other. Perhaps the owners of the old Bard sites have simply decided that there is no longer a need for seperate sites and that their time is best spent doing other things? If you want the community, then build it, either on some site or amongst your peers through chat communication. Lack of knowledge is cured by research. Research in EQ2 can be done by examining your spells and testing them out. No need for a fancy website and shiny boards to do that - unless you want a site where you can just have everything explained to you. In the end, that route only serves to cheat you out of a good learning experience. __________________ Syrisa D'Akyr Berserker and Weaponsmith of Neriak Antonia Bayle Server

03-23-2006, 02:29 AM	#1
goyom Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 71	Splitting the bard class was the worst decision for us that SOE could have made... There I said it and I mean it. This class was not meant to be cut in half. It destroys the user community. There is a total lack of decent websites and resources to track stats, spells, and bard general terminology and hints. Since the scoutsanctuary.com closed, its just this location. Where are all the bards? Why does noone goto eqdiva?? What happened to Reeds wonderful spreadsheet? Where is the Concert Hall?? Its enough to make me consider a return to eq1. /rant off

03-23-2006, 07:04 AM	#5
Goresling Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	Plus, the fact that there are so few bards, it makes getting the bard drops in group way easier. For example: I'm the only bard in the guild at this present time. When Dirge/Troub items drop, I get them for minimum DKP, caues I'm not fighting against anyone else. I love my Dirge. It's a well rounded class that helps out any group you can come into contact with. Yeah, we may have had a few nerfs against us, but over all, I can't think of anything I would change. A lot of peeps don't like the AA line, but I did just fine without the AA's for the first 60 levels, and I'll do even better with the few AA's that I enjoy from the line. But that's just me putting in my 2cp. And to go back to the main topic. Does anyone really MISS having to twist songs together? Just preventing me from getting carpal tunnels sooner than expected. : ) Pidgin, 69 dirge Permafrost Server

03-27-2006, 07:08 PM	#7
goyom Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 71	I dont really agree with the lack of need. I was on a bard chat channel on my server Saturday and of the 20 or so bards in the channel (level 20-70) quite a few admitted to not knowing what a song really does, or doubting if it really functions as described.

03-28-2006, 10:28 PM	#9
Maleynt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7	I just stumbled across this dirge wiki while looking for dirge info. It obviously is in need of some additional info.Perhaps one way to start some bonding among dirges would be to help fill this in? Personally, as a young-ish player I was hoping to go there and find some advice and tips, and while it's not a "community" per se, it would certainly be a place to help up-and-coming digres learn some sage advice from the more experienced of our class.Just a thought...

03-28-2006, 10:51 PM	#10
Krescendo Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 219	I really miss "The Scouts Sanctuary". A forum only website...heavily modded is not ideal in my mind, but certainly better than nothing. EQDiva, in its heyday was an ideal site. People wrote guides that were invaluable for a very difficult class. There were active and lively discussions on every topic. Bottom line is an EQ2 bard is not a hard to play, as the EQ1 bard, in some respects. You don't have to choose what songs to have 'up'. You don't have all the wild soloing strats. Its easier to know whats in what zone in EQ2. The EQ1 universe was huge with much more level diversity in many zone. EQ2 maps has greatly simplified moving around. Ogaming has filled many of the needs for a dedicated website for any class, couple that with, as others have said, the scarcity of bards, and I see why there really isn't one. Nevertheless, a dedicated non-Sony site would be nice. But I don't think I'd spend a lot of time reading and writing guides in EQ2, since its not as necessary and the revamps that sweep through EQ2 would invalidate many of them.

04-03-2006, 08:28 AM	#11
SeregWethrin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Maethor the troubador here and I wanted to add something. I am planning on creating a bard site for eq2 as I was disappointed with the lack of information. In the old days of eq1 i used to know more about everyclass than anyone else just because I helped write for many of the fansites and also played so many classes up. For me though I will be working over the next few days from the college on a bard site and will have a test site up later this week i would like help with some of the more complicated problems i have if anyone who knows php wants to help i have some ideas on how to impliment a system if i cant find someone with php i am good enough with html to do it, but it would be hard to have others update the site which is why i would like someone with php knowledge or asp .net or C# i will eventually be able to learn php as i know a little though.edit I also need someone to help with higher level guides as I am not currently high enough but i do have some high pvp server dirge and troub guildies who are really good for that. BTW if you want to talk message maethor on nafagen Message Edited by SeregWethrin on 04-02-200609:29 PM __________________ Maethor

04-04-2006, 12:04 AM	#12
Mystiq General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 698	Kinda confused on what the OP is actually complaining about here. What does the separation of the bard into Troubadour and Dirge have to do with the lack of a player run community sites?I'm hoping you guys don't think troubs and dirges aren't distinct enough from one another. From what I've seen, it's quite the opposite. Take a look at the priest classes, like shaman for instance, if you want to see a watered down class separation :smileywink:.As for the lack of player class community sites, the fact that we have a centralized forum such as this is probably the reason extra sites haven't popped up much. Efforts have been made in the past for some classes, with little result....just not enough traffic. I think with the proper use of these forums, and ww chat channels, that's all the community you really need for this game. Also, EQ2 is still young. I doubt the Druid's Grove or The Safehouse popped up overnight, and they certainly weren't what they are today without a lot of time and effort in and out of game.Nestled inside the whines, flames and rants, we've got a great community here :smileyhappy:.Regards, __________________