Dirge Effectiveness after Live Patch #3?

[SilentFu]

So would now be a good time to start that priest up again?

 

With wizards being "fixed", buff timers being changed, AGI and STR now being made less useful....is it worthwhile to continue a dirge? Any high AGI or STR buffs we had are less useful than before...

 

I retired my coercer because of the various bugs and difficulty in playing him for long periods of time (coercers = carpal tunnel), but with the changes on test, it might be a good idea now. 10 minute timers is much more doable for me.

 

Various running speeds being lowered is nice because it will make us faster in comparison...but at the same time isn't the wizzy changes going to make us in "less" demand?

 

Any other thoughts and comments?

[Landsurvey]

Well- my opinion is that DIRGEs rock, they are the best class in the game and I will never play another class.  Seriously I say this because I really think the cup is half-full and the grass is always greener on my side of the fence.  Who cares if a class is the most desireable class - is it the class you enjoy playing and role-playings. 

[SilentFu]

Part of the fun I get from playing is being able to find groups. That's why I quit my Coercer, I couldn't find groups who wanted to waste a DPS slot and it literally hurt my hands to play since I had to buff so often.

 

If the class i selected as my alt is borked now...might as well switch to a class that is always in high demand...priests are never LFG long

[Khuzad]

Hey SilentFury...Just my thoughts...not a rip on you at all...I have played MANY mmorpg's...I played EQLive from the first week until EQ2 came out...I have played almost every class in EQLive and I currently have 6 classes going on EQ2...I can say that I have had every class I have ever played nerfed to one extent or the other...some minor some major...this is the nature of the beast...you could go make a preist...i like playing preists as well...but you will get nerfed...maybe a mage...you will get nerfed...it just happens...find a class you enjoy and play it...get to know some people in the game and you will never have to worry about finding a group...if one of my friends are on and he or she is a ogre mage with 2 int and they want to group...we invite them...no offense meant to the ogres out there...=)I have been reading boards for years...people from every class and subclass come on these boards and rant and rave..."WE ARE USELESS, WE ARE USELESS"...I have no problem ever finding a group...good people look for good people to play with...I suggest finding a good guild or just find some good people...you will have no problem finding a group and you will have fun tearing through some nasties...It is a GAME...meant to be played and enjoyed...So...Play...Enjoyand be safe...there are some nasty creatures out there...=)PeaceMaethorThe DirgeOH!! BTW - DIRGES RULE!! =)

[SilentFu]

My point was a large part of the "fun" is derived from that classes (perceived or otherwise) usefullness in a group......and a group actually being available, but that's a different thread. My Dirge's DPS is already pretty bad (yes, orange weapons with maxed skills)...limiting the effects of my buffs (STR/AGI "fixes")...and the corresponding fixes for wizards/warlocks sorta shoving us further down the desired group member chart. I used to be able to say, "Hey, at least I'm not a Brigand/Swashbuckler! I can buff!" or "Hey, at least my pet won't get everyone killed!"

 

I quit my Coercer because I couldn't get groups anymore...the game/character stopped being fun. Solo'ing a chanter is rough. No one wants a slot filled with CC when the mobs come in neat little groups, the tank holds aggro like a champ, and I can't physically keep everyone breezed, hasted AND stun/stifle/DOT/debuff 100% of the time.

 

Won't a Dirge get equally challenged in finding groups due to lack of DPS, useless buffs, and more importantly, better pure DPS classes available? This isn't meant to be a troll or a rant or whatever. I'm just asking.

[Laureous]

Less than desirable or unplayable or useless...hrm.We can:Rez, Power song regen, heal ourselves with attacks, +speed buff, track, stealth, do good damage upclose and at range, give stat buffs, debuff mobs of their defenses (mental, disease, crushing, pierce and slash), slow mobs and ensnare, disarm traps, stealth, group haste...Yea, I would not want to play THAT class. =p

[SilentFu]

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Laureous wrote:
Less than desirable or unplayable or useless...hrm.

We can:

Rez, Power song regen, heal ourselves with attacks, +speed buff, track, stealth, do good damage upclose and at range, give stat buffs, debuff mobs of their defenses (mental, disease, crushing, pierce and slash), slow mobs and ensnare, disarm traps, stealth, group haste...

Yea, I would not want to play THAT class. =p

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While those are well and good, lets look at some other facts.

How many groups are you in with a class that can rez? All of the priest classes can. Aren't you normally grouped with a healer?

Power song regen? I've never bothered playing this song as the amount gained isn't worth the amount spent. With a longer duration however, who knows...we'll have to wait and see what makes it to Live.

Heal ourselves with attacks? Haven't come across those abilities yet. Can't comment.

+speed buff? Good stuff. One of the reasons I picked Dirge. Lvl 30.

Track/Stealth? Tracking is great for AQ6 in Nek. I've never been asked to use it again. And my stealth is great when I watch the AFK folks on autofollow run into a brick wall of Treants Point for you.

Doing damage? My original point was if another class is better at this already...and they are LFG as well as I...what's the point in picking a Dirge post-patch? Pick the class that can actually do BOATLOADS of damage.

Stat buffs? Are rendered less useful in this patch. Can't really say they are adding "fun-ability" anymore.

Debuffs? Useful, but not required. Other classes do it better than me already.

Ensnare? Never used it. I can't slow down an entire encounter. So I snare one mob. Whoopie, the others still alive get to kill me instead.

Disarm? Useful.

Stealth? Can't use an ability twice Laureous

Group Haste? See above.

Again, all this is subject to change..it all depends on what happens with Test and what makes it to Live. Hopefully they can make AGI and STR useful again. If not, I'm afraid the cobwebs come off the Dirge or its back to the 9 priest

[shataz]

Dirges increase the entire groups overall DPS. We aren't there to be the ultra-DPS. That job is for assasins and rangers. We are there to make everyone else's damage output that much better. I have never had problems finding a group as a dirge, and in fact most groups are happy to pick me up and always comment on how much faster we mow through mobs with my songs up. If you aren't enjoying the class then don't play it, but I honestly think we are one of the best thought out classes in the game right now. You want a truly broken class? Play a conjurer.

[Jzi]

I like the class, but if you feel you aren't useful now perhaps you should try another one. Also if we are going to get hit with a nerf stick, that run speed spell at 30 has a big round target on it especially after the changes to horses and totems =( , so choosing the class for that reason you are setting yourself up for disapointment. There are plenty of other things a dirge has though imo, we aren't ubar, we aren't broke. We have some bugs sure. But generally I like the class, but then I also wouldn't play a class i didn't particularly care for even if they were perma desired in groups.

[SilentFu]

You say you don't think you could play a class that was uber-needed in a group if you didn't like the class....why? Is your defintion of fun logging into your toon and seeing your name blink? (none of this is meant to be sarcastic or mean, FYI. Just trying to illustrate a point). This begs the question....

 

Do you log onto your toons and immediately think "Whee! I'm having fun! Look at me run!"? For me, I actually have to get inside a good group and actually go accomplish something. Just logging on and seeing dirge on my Persona screen doesn't float my boat. I guess it all depends on how you gauge fun. I can't just log on and have fun, I actually need to feel like I've accomplished something or been useful.

 

My original point still is that I'm worried post-patch that the skills we DO have will be diluted to the point of indifference. Before these patch notes at least I had at least a skill people wanted...what seperates us now from other scouts? Run speed? Shatazer said that we increase the entire groups DPS....but haste that doesn't speed up specials...isn't THAT the larger percentage of DPS? Buffs that aren't as effective anymore? And again, I'm only referring to the patch that is currently on Test.

 

I've had SOME problems finding groups, but I think that is because the server population on Innothule is slowly going down. Less people = less groups. I'm still welcoming comments as long as it doesn't turn ugly.

Message Edited by SilentFury on 02-10-2005 01:16 PM

[Landsurvey]

BTW - everything is relative for example:

 

Lets look at the nerfs:

 

1st: The best grind groups included no chanters then nerf ...

 

2nd The best grind groups included no healers then nerf ...

 

3rd The best grind group included no tank then nerf ...

 

Now the Trinity is in tact - for end game encounters you need the holy trinity(tank/healer/chanter).  Does it drop the importance of a bard? YES.  We are just part of the DPS group but it is still true that any 2 DPS plus a Bard is better then 3 of the other DPS so we are still critical. 

 

You may want to return to your chanter now or your cleric if you want to be part of the trinity but that's up to you.

 

 

[SilentFu]

I support your post 100%. It does seem that is the attitude they have now. However, in the span it took me to write this original thread and now I've cancelled my account and given up on EQ2. Dirges 1 SilentFury 0

[Laureous]

Honestly, I have grouped with other classes (other than other scouts) and they all perform better with a dirge in group. UTILITY is the name of the game for the dirge, jack-of-all trades, master of none.One of my guildmates, a 45 assassin absolutely loves grouping with a bard class in group, especially a dirge, for the simple fact that he has had his highest damage hit when I am there. Having both a troubador and dirge in group is downright insane, because we make everyone else look good.That is the key for understanding the bard classes: We make everyone else look good.

[MiscreantPy]

Dirges were never effective. The only way I made it to 50 is I was higher than all but one Troub on the server, and now that the masses have caught up I'm absolutely worthless, I sit outside my guilds raids invis incase they wipe so I can rez them, seriously what the heck was soe thinking?! Sony has royally messed up the class balance between bards not to mention their other short comings.

[Nobol]

You're better off adding another dps, then a bard anymore... Yes you will boost everyone's output,not enough imo to grant the group slot to a bard.I serve one purpose, boost the HP of the tank in a raid *stacked with the 3 healers*Thats pretty much it.Things that need looked atBria's I want to see %100 increase *yes 100%*Debuff don't do anything really *get rid of them and give me more ca's*Haste doesn't do much when using HO's and Arts *remove them and give me more ca's*Stat buffs won't be doing much * remove them and give me more CA's*Fear is worthless *remove and give me more arts*Wow I'm noticing a pattern, heh just remove the whole bard subclass and call us ghetto fabolous rogues.Each patch keeps nerfing any bard usefullness, literally all of my lvl 50 bard friends have retired their char, unless there is a raid they need that extra 300hp for...or as the above said, to rez.

Message Edited by Nobolis on 02-10-2005 03:31 PM

[Lornick]

If you really think all those things Nobolis, then you simply chose the wrong class to play. Maybe you want to be an EQ1 rogue, but you don't speak for everyone who plays a dirge when you say that. I agree bria's could use a lil beefing up. But there are alot of classes that have some form of power regen, and as far as I'm aware our buff stacks with all theirs. There maybe balance problems if it was effectively 100% better. Hell with increased duration it's already alot better. I'm not quite lvl 50, but I'll get there soon. As of right now, I simply don't see the problems some of you guys are describing.

[MiscreantPy]

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Lornick wrote:
If you really think all those things Nobolis, then you simply chose the wrong class to play. Maybe you want to be an EQ1 rogue, but you don't speak for everyone who plays a dirge when you say that. I agree bria's could use a lil beefing up. But there are alot of classes that have some form of power regen, and as far as I'm aware our buff stacks with all theirs. There maybe balance problems if it was effectively 100% better. Hell with increased duration it's already alot better. I'm not quite lvl 50, but I'll get there soon. As of right now, I simply don't see the problems some of you guys are describing.

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When you begin raiding and are only invited if theres no Troubador around you will know what we're talking about.

 

Also a huge thing no one seems to notice, Troubadors supposed uniqueness is their buffing, and dirges debuffing. Buffing happens before battle, and ocassionally in battle, while debuffing happens in battle, which against exp mobs is worthless cause they'll be dead by the time your finished debuffing them. Dirges supposed MAIN trait is impractical and consumes time better spent using our crappy melee styles. Not to mention with the agi nerf our agi debuffs are even crappier than before even though  they were so crappy no one ever used them.

 

As for our buffs stacking with Troubs thats only if we are in the same group. So during a raid, hypothetically the tanks group, which lemme see has room for the 3 healer branches 1 tank 1 brusier to give the huge tank ac buff, and 1 troub. Yup no room at all for both a dirge and a troub.

 

Troubadors are far far more useful against mobs as they can stifle, drain mana, and mez or charm adds.

 

Yeah us Dirges absolutely suck. I played this class cause I thought it would useful. IT ISN'T. Dirges are gimped beyond belief.

 

WHO NEEDS DEBUFFS IF THE MOB CAN'T DO ANYTHING?! TO BAD WE CANT CONTINUALLY STIFLE IT AND MANA DRAIN.

 

 

[Jzi]

wow, you can really spot the glass is half empty people in this thread. All that envy for troubadours at 50, and the troubadours are whining Dirges get it better etc etc.

 

As silentfury asked why I stated I'd rather play a class I liked as opposed to one I didn't but that was needed in group. Whats the point of doing something I don't like, and leveling a character just because somebody else wants me too. I'd rather take my chance soloing or sitting lfg, as it is I group with friends/guild plenty enough anyway. But then again I've never constantly tried to convince them I'm crap to have in group so I seem to get invited.

 

Not that I've reached 50 so can't comment on how broken the class is there, but I've seen dirges who are happy at 50, and frankly I don't care, game is changing so much right now things at 50 could change quite quick eitherway, leveling up a class I don't like to play on the premise they are needed under the current game dynamic is pointless.

 

 

 

[Landsurvey]

Definetly lots of negativity here lol.

 

I agree the MT group should be exactly what you talk about you still need 3 DPS groups and in a DPS group I think a Dirge is more useful then a Troub.  Also, I think hitting the boss with a magic resist then hitting em all with claras does help the whole raid.  With 2 Dirges working together we can get them both off almost immdiatly.  1 is stealthed hits boss while other is already casting claras.

[Laureous]

I think people are confusing their own personal issues and playstyles with the ones that all dirges are trying to deal with. If my guild ever told me to be stealth rez guy I would tell them to take a flying leap.

[Ishnar]

actually, because dirge debuffs affect the mob, they benefit the entire raid.  Where troubador buffs only affect the group they are in.

 

ishnar

[Nobol]

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Lornick wrote:If you really think all those things Nobolis, then you simply chose the wrong class to play. Maybe you want to be an EQ1 rogue, but you don't speak for everyone who plays a dirge when you say that. I agree bria's could use a lil beefing up. But there are alot of classes that have some form of power regen, and as far as I'm aware our buff stacks with all theirs. There maybe balance problems if it was effectively 100% better. Hell with increased duration it's already alot better. I'm not quite lvl 50, but I'll get there soon. As of right now, I simply don't see the problems some of you guys are describing.

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I did not chose the wrong path, I am pointing what we are, a ghetto fabulous rogue. By the time things are looked at or fixed it will be 2006 if ever, I know SOE, and don't feel a change to improve us will come soon.Almost forgot on Bria's, no it needs 100% boost, for me to even think about using it.

Message Edited by Nobolis on 02-11-2005 03:49 PM

[Nobol]

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Ishnar wrote:

actually, because dirge debuffs affect the mob, they benefit the entire raid.  Where troubador buffs only affect the group they are in.

 

ishnar

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Well if they actually did something you would have a valid point, they don't however.

[MiscreantPy]

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Laureous wrote:
I think people are confusing their own personal issues and playstyles with the ones that all dirges are trying to deal with. If my guild ever told me to be stealth rez guy I would tell them to take a flying leap.

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Don't try and make this personal, I pointed that out as one of our very few useful traits.

[Nobol]

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MiscreantPyro wrote:

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Laureous wrote:
I think people are confusing their own personal issues and playstyles with the ones that all dirges are trying to deal with. If my guild ever told me to be stealth rez guy I would tell them to take a flying leap.

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Don't try and make this personal, I pointed that out as one of our very few useful traits.

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Haha thats the sad part Give the masses a chance to get to end game, and deal with it, then perhaps they will understand what is going on.

[MiscreantPy]

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Nobolis wrote:

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MiscreantPyro wrote:

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Laureous wrote:
I think people are confusing their own personal issues and playstyles with the ones that all dirges are trying to deal with. If my guild ever told me to be stealth rez guy I would tell them to take a flying leap.

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Don't try and make this personal, I pointed that out as one of our very few useful traits.

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Haha thats the sad part

Give the masses a chance to get to end game, and deal with it, then perhaps they will understand what is going on.

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Word. They won't see it coming then they hit 50 start raiding and bam we're usless. In every group I've killed a raid mob in, they would have been far better served by a Troubador. Also the Troubadors and ourselves are pretty much the same class till 40+ then they far, far surpass us.

[Xanus]

You've got to be joking? Dude, and I'm not saying this to see who's [FaarNerfed!] is bigger and be bragadocious but I smoke troubadors at the high end and the groups/raids I'm in know it. I have persoanlly saved many raids from disaster just from the simple fact that I can "in combat" resurrect(trouba CANNOT do this). Raid mobs drop 3 times as fast when I join a raid than if they had a troubador there in my place which means better chances of success and less overall damage done to the raid. i'm always in the main tank/healer group when we raid. why? because if for some reason a healer or the tank drops I can pull em back up immediately at pretty much half health half mana. Not even the priests in my guild can do this. when I put Claras on the raid mob there is a HUGE difference in how fast its health drops. trouba CANNOT do this either. so what CAN a troubador bring to a raid that I can't? Power drains? WOW Our inquisotor gets that done much faster with zealotry and his mana proc buff. I'm sorry if you feel [Removed for Content] compared to troubadors. Maybe you should go play one.

[Lornick]

Preach on brother Xanusus!

[MiscreantPy]

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Xanusus wrote:
You've got to be joking? Dude, and I'm not saying this to see who's [FaarNerfed!] is bigger and be bragadocious but I smoke troubadors at the high end and the groups/raids I'm in know it. I have persoanlly saved many raids from disaster just from the simple fact that I can "in combat" resurrect(trouba CANNOT do this). Raid mobs drop 3 times as fast when I join a raid than if they had a troubador there in my place which means better chances of success and less overall damage done to the raid. i'm always in the main tank/healer group when we raid. why? because if for some reason a healer or the tank drops I can pull em back up immediately at pretty much half health half mana. Not even the priests in my guild can do this. when I put Claras on the raid mob there is a HUGE difference in how fast its health drops. trouba CANNOT do this either. so what CAN a troubador bring to a raid that I can't? Power drains? WOW Our inquisotor gets that done much faster with zealotry and his mana proc buff. I'm sorry if you feel [Removed for Content] compared to troubadors. Maybe you should go play one.

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Lets see...

Dirge Elegy at Death's Door dirges 44380 Resurrects a dead target (Caster cannot be directly engaged in combat)

 

Message Edited by MiscreantPyro on 02-11-2005 08:33 PM

[Nobol]

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Xanusus wrote:You've got to be joking? Dude, and I'm not saying this to see who's [FaarNerfed!] is bigger and be bragadocious but I smoke troubadors at the high end and the groups/raids I'm in know it. I have persoanlly saved many raids from disaster just from the simple fact that I can "in combat" resurrect(trouba CANNOT do this). Raid mobs drop 3 times as fast when I join a raid than if they had a troubador there in my place which means better chances of success and less overall damage done to the raid. i'm always in the main tank/healer group when we raid. why? because if for some reason a healer or the tank drops I can pull em back up immediately at pretty much half health half mana. Not even the priests in my guild can do this. when I put Claras on the raid mob there is a HUGE difference in how fast its health drops. trouba CANNOT do this either. so what CAN a troubador bring to a raid that I can't? Power drains? WOW Our inquisotor gets that done much faster with zealotry and his mana proc buff. I'm sorry if you feel [Removed for Content] compared to troubadors. Maybe you should go play one.

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SO you basiclly repeated my point, we serve to rez, and?Moving forward.