Feedback on Troubador

[ke]

I think the biggest thing lacking is having a dev dedicated to each class that posts semi-regularly. We should have some open dialogue. I don't know if Sony doesn't trust their devs in this role or if they think that it would be too time-consuming. Whatever the reason, I hope we get a bard dev to talk with sometime. They don't have to devulge formulas and secrets. I used to play Gemstone3 (mud) and I remember we had a bard dev who would let us know what was being worked on and could discuss spells, balance, etc, etc.

[SongDi]

Just wanted to add my support for all the problems/fixes needed stated in the original post.  I agree these are important issues that need fixing.

[Pretty_Snake_]

My good friend, having recently realized that even the high level spells make a marginal impact on the group, deleted his troubador.  About the only spell that seemed to make any impact, or was in anyway unique, was the Proc.  Everything else that was good about the character was simply dependent on the base scout line of powers... escape, HO flipping, high flanking damage, and disarming traps.  Just about every concern and frustration mentioned by him was repeated by you in your post.  Topping the list I would say, would be the ineffectiveness of the charm spell, the lack of any actual musical feel, and the lack of any noticeable impact that any of the buffs actually made.  The class needs to be invigorated with a more magical/musical feel than it does right now.

[Cha]

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TopBramen wrote:

 

EDIT:

 

I almost completely forgot!  Why can we use our basic Sneak during combat, but not Walk Lightly?  Make all Bard Sneaks useable during combat, it's a real hinderince having to go through my spell book to hit our basic Sneak just to get off Luckblade or Ambush during an existing fight. 

Message Edited by TopBramen on 11-25-2004 03:34 PM

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Look....

exit combat, stop hitting the target. remove sneak from your bar. use that little icon for "Attack". hit that to end combat, walk lightly, luckblade, spam a few various other attacks, repeat.

This is a part of the combat process as a whole.

For example

an enchanter needs to end combat to mez a target. If not they hit may the target with their stupid staff and break mez.

A fighter who is trying to taunt a mez'd target without hitting it and beaking the mez, needs to end combat, use taunt, switch back to original target, then engage back into combat. Thus preventing mez'd target from auto-aggroing onto enchanter when the mez breaks. (which we all know is MORE bad)

These are aspects of combat which require skill and are at times challenging. When I'm in a well run group with my guildmates, we are a machine. Time flies, everyone does their job and we have fun.

the reason you can sneak while in combat is because its a newbie attack, your new to the game and don't know how to play, as you progress in level you need to learn to adapt to group combat and play properly in order to fulfill your position as your class. (but to be honest, I personally don't recall being able to use sneak in combat)

There is a difference between making the game enjoyable and too easy. I'm sorry, but I disagree with your statement. Would it be gamebreaking to change it the other way? be allowed to use walk lightly in combat? perhaps not gamebreaking. Then again, would it kill you to hit the attack key, spend a whole second doing that? I think thats acceptable.

[Shalwin]

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Charb wrote:

 

Look....

exit combat, stop hitting the target. remove sneak from your bar. use that little icon for "Attack". hit that to end combat, walk lightly, luckblade, spam a few various other attacks, repeat.

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This does not work.  After I have engaged in combat, even if I turn attack off, I still can't get into sneak mode using walk lightly.  The icon shows up, but I don't actually crouch down and turn invisible, nor can I use luckblade.

[Xran]

Maybe we can post this in the Spells/Abilities forum?

[Cha]

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Shalwin wrote:

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Charb wrote:

 

Look....

exit combat, stop hitting the target. remove sneak from your bar. use that little icon for "Attack". hit that to end combat, walk lightly, luckblade, spam a few various other attacks, repeat.

---

This does not work.  After I have engaged in combat, even if I turn attack off, I still can't get into sneak mode using walk lightly.  The icon shows up, but I don't actually crouch down and turn invisible, nor can I use luckblade.

---

I'm sorry, forgot to mention.

Not every single mob will allow you yo do this. certain mobs break your sneak, or have see invisible which prevents you from re-sneaking during combat. I use this tactic all the time, I suggest you grab a buddy of yours to go tank some low level stuff in the commonlands and you try this out.

[Seth]

sorry for the cross posting but it seem some people dont read all thread

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Im troubadour 29 on french server (so sorry for my poor english)

The regen mana is very usefull IN fight : the base regen is 9power /tick+the song regen its 7power/tick with just appII

The add dps proces 1or more per mob at 100 degat so with 2 other melee its a free 300 degat per mob

The buff stat i agree its not very noticable (i think we hit near for the max per swing and the MT parry/esquive a lot more)

The 2 buff hast do not stack. The one at level28 is like the 14 but with a little buff agy but i have not mastery the skill atm.in 1 minute i swing 48 time with a 1,2 delay weapon. with the buff 64 time/ minute(adeptI skill).

 

But THE primary JOB of troubadour its a very powerfull anticasteur.A power full direct drain who drain 120 power and a power dot who dot 20 per tick.(we have 2 other spell who drain power but i havent notice realy how its work)

I can make a level30++ mob oom in 10 sec and we have a buff who interrup casteur.The priest-like class Heal a lot less .

But also our own dps its less than other dps class. I have 2 shout who did 150 dmg(APPII the 2)  a backstab who did 150 dmg (APPIII) when the priestlike debuff monster and the sneak attk who did between 100 and 300 dmg(Adpet I) I have another  adeptI style who did 120 dmg and debuff arcane. But  we are in front of fighter in terme of dps.

 

Yes if you calculate  with the regen song its near 2 heal and 1 blast per casteur / mn so with 6mn buff its a free 10 cast/casteur(at my level i think it ll be less efficient with gaining level)

 

with a friend guardian (level27) me and a friend cleric (levle29) today we have chain NON stop white/blue con++ monster.I think its impossible without a mage for oh regen power or barde song.

 

 

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

 

After some test solo on Orc at ZEK who was level31 (im level30):

 

-Without buff, just with regen hp song i finish the fight with 10% hp and 50% power (i had must spent all power in the dd who take lot of power for kill fast).

-With rousing thune /hp regen/ aria of exitement/ the self buff stat who take one con (dont remember the name) i finish the fight with 80%-90% hp (less if im not lucky. in 30 fight i finish 25 with 80% and 5 with 50%+ hp)and 70% or 80% power

 

So Rousing thune and the other STAT buff are very important.

 

The regen song who heal just 16hp/tick (appII) its very usefull in solo(essential) and can be usefull in groupe with cleric if we fight white con casteur without delta (they do near 200degat/member the cleric with regen just focus on the MT for heal.)but with 2conc for use it,i prefere hast buff or skill buff

 

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

 

The first issu ill enjoy its buff who are last longer and a buton on/off for all buff(for change fastly)

AND the regen power less less less expensive in terme of power for cast it.

 

Chantebrume.Troubadour on Storm(french server). Level30.

 

Pandemonium.

 

Message Edited by Sethis on 12-01-2004 05:32 AM

Message Edited by Sethis on 12-01-2004 05:38 AM

[Xalter]

I'll be 30 pretty soon m'self report then....spent time getting up weaponsmith, just to not sell a **ZOMG** thing because the drops own anything I can craft and because there's so many of them sell for almost nothing too...*grumbles* - maybe tier 4....yeah, yeah thats it....

 

I agree with everything here - though I don't at all feel troub is useless. Maybe that's just me though...

[Ragnarok]

Just updated the post. Added the Safe Fall being bugged as I promised a while ago...

 

Nothing new other than that, which I've been able to find. If you spot problems please let me know.

 

Currenty looking into which spells/styles overwrite one anothers recast timer. I am pretty sure one or two of them overwrite the timers for eachother when they're not supposed to, like: You cast the one spell/style, and another spell/style greys out along with it and recharges on same timer as the one you just cast. This could be related to new versions being upgrades of old ones, but I need to look into it a little more, as some of them significantly change icon.

 

Also debating commercializing/reposting the original post in for example gameplay issues forum, because it seems like these subclass forums get no attention from red-cons (devs) of any kind. A shame really since there's alot of good posts in this forum...

 

Anyways, if you spot new issues not in the list, be sure to let me know (reply/PM).

[Vermillio]

Bards, jack of all trades and master of none is no longer the right definition for our class. Take out the first part and let the latter stay - Master of None, that's more like it.The Charm song is a RIP OFF, period. 6 minutes re-cast time? At apprentice III the charm breaks after a little over 15 seconds and cannot be used to charm mobs that are 1 or more lvl higher than the caster, nor usable on mobs that have ANY kinds of arrow (single or double) even when the mob cons green. What's more, even if we WERE able to charm a mob, we cannot issue an attack command or else charm breaks...that's not really a charm song to us who are used to Original EQ.I could understand we have no Selo in EQ 2 for game balancing, but at least give us a little better ability to handle multiple mobs situation. If the developers think there's nothing wrong with Charm song breaking in 15 seconds, that's fine - but at least reduce the 6 minutes recasting time to like, 30 seconds? Or fix the song to match its spell description. (I.E. Charm a mob and issue attacking command without breaking the charm and the mob FOLLOWS your attack order). If the reason behind the charm song not able to issue attack commands to pet is about bards using charm song for risk-free solo experience, then let it be this way but change the charm song to a mez song with a reasonable recasting timer.

[Iasth]

Some corrections about Bria's Entrancing Sonnet (charm).  I am currently level 30, and I decided to waste some money, so I bought Sonnet, Adept 1.  At this level I can charm level 37 ^ mobs.  I haven't tried any higher.  I can not charm any ^^ mobs that con higher than grey.  With Adept 1, the charm lasts about 30 seconds.

 

It's still a horrible song.  The recast timer should be 30 seconds to a minute long.  Or last 3 minutes, and take up one concentration slot.

 

Also Bria's Thrilling Ballad is a substantial improvement over Stirring Ballad.  I haven't found an adept for it yet, but even at App 2 it regens power pretty quickly.  I'm guessing the next one in line will be even faster, and will be amazingly fast at Adept 3 or Master level.

 

Also, you can upgrade pathfinding, up to Master status.... it's a LOT faster.

 

But as far as everything listed from the original poster.  I agree with every word and am signing my name.

 

 

[Monomo]

The worst thing so far I have seen with our class is the Songster's Luck Nerf of the last patch I have it with adept 1 and it buff my attack by FOUR points...this is not worth it even if it would'nt take 2 concentration slots...This must be a bug I cant believe this is working as intended. Please devs give us some info here

[Ragnarok]

Just added the Songsters Luck nerf/bug to the list as the only update I really have at this time.

 

As stated before, if you discover issues/bugs that aren't already mentioned, please make me aware of them so I can add them.

 

Also, since it appears that this place is deserted by the devs, or at least that they don't make us aware of their presence here, I've decided to re-post this issue in one of the more general forums, for example the Spells, Abilities and Combat Arts forum, in hopes that we might get some attention to the issues with our class (I will edit this post with the link to the re-post, will be doing it later today once they get to work "overthere").

 

EDIT: Topic reposted here: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=8443

Message Edited by RagnarokDK on 12-11-2004 04:58 PM

[Monomo]

Good Idea Ramac!

[wolfepak6]

Not to throw gas on the fire, but if Tanks or healer classes had this many issues they would have been fixed by now or at least addressed.

[Tyddu]

I just made Troubadour last night. With all th issues I am reading on these posts. It looks like I'm parking it awhile until some bugs get fixed if ever. Otherwise I will delete it and make a Rogue/ Ranger.

[Zostr]

Regarding Luck Blade, I use sneak, it doesn't fail like walk lightly, I turn attack off about half-way thru sneak, and unless the mob is aggro on me, it has never failed.

[LadyShylah]

Just wanted to add how great this thread is. I'll definitely keep my eye on this one and hopefully provide some helpful information in the future.Well done!

[Windain]

As a lvl 42 Troubador I'd like to give some imput on this list made:

 

1.3. Bards/Troubadors cannot group together.

This issues has been mentioned a few times by now, there are real big issues with Bards/Troubadors and their inability to group together. Our songs do not stack, our attacks with effect do not stack, and not only do they not stack, the bard with the lower skill/ability is pretty much limited to do unstyled attacking because of the "Would not take effect"-issues that is linked to us not being able to stack or overwrite eachothers effects.

 

Delete that, Bards stack great together.  Was in a group with 2 other bards (2 dirges) and have been in many other groups with troubadors.  There might be one attack you can't use but that is all.   The more bards the better (ok 4-5 might be pushing it).

 

1.4. Songs/abilities have low effect.

This issues is becomming more and more discussed by Bards/Troubadors. A majority of our spells make very little difference, especially Bria's Stirring Ballad. Since no Bards/Troubadors are yet high enough to test the next level of, for example, mana regen (Bria's Thrilling Ballad - lvl 27), this issue is still somewhat insecure. Nevertheless, there seems to be little clarity amongst other players of just how big an impact a Bard/Troubador has on a group, either due to our effects not being powerfull enough, or them not being noticed. We have only 5 conc points, meaning we can run a maximum of 3-4 songs, these songs should be powerfull.

 

I'm now on the third tier power regen song, let me tell you all of the songs I use make a huge impact on the group.   Although I must admit through the 20's troubadors aren't exactly shining.

 

1.7. Unique spell, not unique at all.

This has also been mentioned by others, and bards really got the short end of the stick when it came to individual ability. Single target /dance with minimal effect, no song or sound of any kind, I feel cheated. Once again, a good example of something that makes the bard classes feel rushed. At least make it a group spell and add some sound, or change it.

 

Nothing like a good way to bother someone like making them dance.  I actually like this ability and it was meant to be fun and not amazing.  Look at what other classes get (ignore crusaders) and you will see they are mostly similar.

 

3.2. Hallmark Reward.

I can only speak for the Qeynos side, as that is the one I am from. And this issue has already been mentioned quite a few times: Why is our class weapon at level 20 a 1handed and not a DW? No Bard/Troubador that I've ever met, has gone 1h and shield in battle. We are not tanks, we are a DPS class. We DW by nature. Why ruin a perfectly good weapon, especially a hallmark one? All it is good for in it's current state, is 50ish silver on the market. Look in this thread for more info. This weapon should be DW.

 

You will upgrade your weapons approximately every 3 lvls.  1hs + shield is good for soloing and tanking (if necessary).  All bards should have 2 duel wield, 1 1h, and 1 shield for all senarios.

 

 

WHAT NEEDS ADDED:

 

Ok, by now I have noticed quite a few bugs with our songs and heard people complain about some others.  About every other song is bugged or broken.  Unfortunately, I can only think of a few examples off the top of my head.

 

Haste song line - Says it adds agility, but doesn't

Lore's Snapping Sonnet (and all the ones in that line) - drains your power, and in the ones further down the line, does not give proper stats or do what it says it does.

Attribute Buff line - The last of the series (Vivacious) only adds str/agi/sta like the rest but claims to raise all stats.

Elises Ditty line - Actually drains your power when the stifling proc goes off, this gets very annoying when your power is constantly going down and you are not doing anything but straight melee.

Swindle Essence - Not sure if this is a bug, but the amount recieved back from the power drain = power cost.. would be nice to get a little +power on top of that.

 

 

 I know there are a few abilities that are supposed to drain power but dont.. can't remember the names though :

 

When I get on tomorrow I can post a few more.

[MiscreantPy]

Troubador and Dirge songs only stack in the way they are variated, and even then the benefits are so negligible the party would be better served with another class.

 

Anyway even with the differences, the Dirge class is nowhere near as useful as a Troubador. With all the time I spent on my Dirge finding out that in end game we are useless compared to Troubadors, makes me almost regret playing my Dirge to level 43. My only hope is they toss us a Dirges a bone.

 

So don't complain to much Troubadors, just remember you got it better than us Dirges.

[Ragnarok]

If anyone wants to copy the content of the original post and continue providing the devs feedback and suggestions, feel free to go ahead.

 

The lack of interest show from the devs to topics like these, kills my interest in keeping the thread updated.

 

My Troubador is currently 45, and I still feel he is rushed. So far the only attention our class has seen has been tru nerfs, and I see nothing comming in the future that is going to change that.

Message Edited by RagnarokDK on 01-09-2005 02:17 PM

[Belisarius]

I hate to dig up past stuff but some of these issues still need to be addressed.

 

We might think about adding to this list again to bring more attention to our community.

 

/bump

Message Edited by Belisarius on 02-20-2005 12:59 PM

[KineticMu]

Aye some Dirge was posting in our forum saying that they started an Issue Thread that actually got some feedback I'm going to try to make a list over time, that means I'll have to dust off the old Troub. I only made it to 30 or so.

[Xanus]

Nice thread but a little outdated there. Many of those issues have been adressed already. This thread really needs to point out specific abilities/arts that are problematic and why. It's very generalized at the moment and does not touch on specific abilities like it should. Yes, I've seen this thread before.For example, I see no mention whatsoever of specific abilities. Let me give you an illustration of the type of write up you need to do. I'll use your health regen line as example of how you need to approach this. And by the way you should run down the list of all your abilities post 20 and do the same.Example:Quiron's Joyous Celebration and it's upgrades - This is the song line that increases the health regeneration of the party. I'm a lvl 50 troubador. I have the very last upgrade to this line and it is adept1. Currently it is only ticking for 30 health per tic at lvl 50. Now I know you may think that's great because you need to consider that it is helping everyone in the party so in effect it's regening in a full group of 6 at basically 180/health tic. That would be great if you could look at the skill like that but frankly in most groups only one person is taking damage and that is the main tank. So, the 30 health it is supposed to be giving to everyone is actually being wasted to the point of only helping one person get 30 health/tic. Do you really think 30 health/tic is going to help that tank at all when most mobs 30+(which is when you get the song) are hitting in the area of 1k+ damage a pop? No, 30health/tic is weak. I don't even find this song useful for downtime since as soon as combat ends health regeneration rates soar sky high. Heck, a healer could cast his group heal and regen the mana back in the time it wouls take for this song to bring everyone back to full health at the end of a tough battle due to its low return. If that weren't enough the song costs me 2 precious concentration slots for a VERY insignificant return. Solution: Put the song on a longer recast timer of maybe 10-30 minutes and instead have the song regen everyone in the group for a period of about 30 seconds at 200 or so health/tic. Then, I might actually get some use out of the song. I see no problems in a fix like this as it would not replace the healers role but rather be an emergency type bard song that could only be used sparingly to help in a tight situation. At least then I might get use out of this song.Try approaching all of your abilties in this manner and you may be able to get a response like the dirges did. When appropraite you should thank the devs for the abilities you have that do work and that you do find useful . I know you at least have a few of them that aren't broken and do help considerably.

[Caa]

I don't mind picking it up, it is sort of along the lines of own thread posted here. I'll pick through it today and repost an updated version.