RAIDING BRIGAND DPS FLAMING THREAD

[verydanger]

For anyone having a hard time believing the dps numbers posted in this thread, have you taken grouping with a troubadour into consideration? I guess the guardian single target hate decrease buff works too, if one was to be found outside MT group.You also have to consider what capped DPS and haste can do with the right weapon and AA lines (Double attacks with 2H wurmslayer anyone?). I think about 1500 dps can be had from just autoattack, excluding procs...

[ag]

1500 from auto-attack would be ludicrous for anyone.But yes, certain classes and combinations of classes permit DPS values that are two, three, four or five times higher than average.However, that's not always a good thing.For example..In raids, i'm often put in a group with a paladin who has amends on me, to prevent me from getting aggro.Unfortunately, the sheer volume of hate transfer from me to him puts him above the MT -every single time-. Very definitely not a good thing, and it was affecting the entire raid force.So, I no longer get Amends on raids. I have to deal with aggro on my own, which means breaking 800DPS = I am the focus. If lie-low is down, then I must FD or risk wiping the raid.This is fine with me, as my guild is most certainly casual with respect to raiding. We don't particularly care if we kill everything or not, or even quickly , or not. It's more of a social experience on a weekly basis, rather than a military experience on a daily basis.Just a difference in choice of playstyle.However, as always, history has proven out that making claims that you can sustain 2000 DPS is extremely unwise. It doesn't matter what data SOE has access to, what reality is, or what crap people are making up, drawing attention to your class has caused the nerf bat to be swung at it. Beware.

[Aral]

That's the way it was in T6 as well chix, as in - debuff amount required to reach cap modified by two things: mob level and encounter "difficulty" (solo, heroic, epic).   Since none of these mobs actually have mitigation, it means the negative debuff "limit" is set by some modifier.  I have a hunch about what this mod is, but I need some time to test first.

You can still reach the cap, I've seen this experimenting with assassin pal to try for his HH in raids - it requires devit, dispatch, dirge's clara's, cleric.  Without dispatch, but with a swash, doll, everyone (no Sk with us) pitching in we're very close to cap on x4s.   I am dying to test this more precisely (22 more days of work til summer...) 

This is a good thing, as it gives more room for everyone's abilities to contribute.  If people really want to think devit+dispatch "doubles raid dps" let them enjoy the fantasy. 

[Ishbu]

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Aralys wrote:

This is a good thing, as it gives more room for everyone's abilities to contribute.  If people really want to think devit+dispatch "doubles raid dps" let them enjoy the fantasy. 

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I have several parses of proof that we ran for the sole purpose of finding out just how much the brigand debuffs help.  It was sligly less than double the raid's dps.  Ask tangarth, I am sure he wasnt happy about me having him drop raid.

[verydanger]

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agra wrote:1500 from auto-attack would be ludicrous for anyone.

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Aww come on Agra, 'ludicrous'? :p OK, bear with me:Anyone can verify that with 510 STR, a brigand will hit 2.8333 times harder than the listed damage of a weapon. Not talking about the damage rating, but the damage that is listed.Ok, so we have a brigand using the 2H Wurmslayer together with 4-4-4-8 WIS and 4-4-4-8 STR.The Wurmslayers listed damage is 78-235, with a delay of 3.0 seconds. That is ((78 + 235) x 2.833) / (2 x 3.0) DPS, without any modifiers at all. Do the math and you get 148 DPS.Now add the doubleattacks. This gives you 1.72 x 148 = 254 DPS.Now, add 100% haste and 100% DPS buffs. This equals four times the original damage, 4 x 254 = 1016 DPS.Then whack loose on a fully debuffed mob. 50% damage increase gives 1.5 x 1016 = 1524 DPS.I'm not gonna go into criticals as my method for calculating that could be a bit controversial (see Rokjin's post about how criticals work), but I guess everyone can agree they will only raise the DPS even higher.Of course, this math may be flawed, and I trust I'll be corrected if it is.

[verydanger]

Aralys, the tests I mention were repeated on several occasions back in the T6 days and also verified by others. Like I said in my post, unless I've overlooked something in my tests today, something has definitely changed since then. The cap for 46^ Prowlers was about 3.8k back then, for a long time, this I am very certain of. Today the exact same test shows the cap for the same mob is about 6k. And yes its true that the cap scales with level and con of encounter (solo, heroic, epic), but not by drastic amounts in any way - at least thats what my testing showed back then, as it did today. But yes, my original statement in this thread about brigand debuffs being overhyped seems to have been a bit off - well ok, more than a bit. Make no mistake though, I am not admitting my calculations were way off - I'm merely a victim off unannounced changes to the debuff caps!

Message Edited by verydanger on 05-31-2006 08:46 AM

[ag]

And you wonder why Wurmslayer isn't going to be usable with double attacks anymore? I'll grant you it's not ludicrous today, in that it's possible, but... after LU24, back to ludicrous. Hopefully. Then hopefully SOE can move on to the next poor losers of the month, with respect to nerfage.

[Aral]

Chix - I wasn't commenting on whether that mob or level/rank has changed in it's cap, but rather that the amount required to reach cap always increased as level/difficulty increased.  Jura'Nata at 60 required more debuffing to reach the 50% cap than a heroic in PoF, for example.  From what you're describing, it sounds as if they've flattened out that curve  - resulting in a relatively smaller effect per point of debuff on solo, heroic, and lower level mobs. 

 

Ishbu, yes you've already described the fights you are using to compare.  You are still ignoring the confounding variables in your raid force, and using an orange con epic which amplifies SoE's already streakier-than-true-random pseudo RNG.  You are still using a sample size of 2 or 3.  I know you really believe this to be true, just like people who take Airborne really believe it's helping them get over a cold more quickly.  It's just not true though, and this can be demonstrated by removing the confounding variables in your raid, and minimizing the extreme variance you introduced by using Tarinax as the testbed for a tiny number of samples.  

 

In the best of all possible scenarios, a brigand can improve your DPS by 50%, and this is only if they are able to reach the cap _alone_ which we are not on top tier mobs, not even for 13 seconds.  I know talking it up won't change your mind, which is why I'm chomping at the bit to get some testing time (aka school year finished) to prove this with statistically valid tests.  If you want to do this for yourself, pick a set of meaty triple ups that spawn all at the same level, mentor down if you need on a lower mob (so brig can easily tank them for a long duration), have brigand apply rake and dispatch, then you fire off your most reliable nuke (smaller  the damage range the better) and record the damage.  Use the same spell every time and no other debuffs, no poisons, dolls etc. Repeat this at bare minimum 40 times, preferably more.  Find the mean damage for this sample.  Now repeat for another 40+ trials, with no brigand debuffs.  More than brig taunts may be needed to keep it off you this time, we don't want any other confounding variables to enter in, so the brig should not be touching the mob, except to taunt.  Record all damages, and find the mean.  Then run a significance  test for 2 means (T-test) to check your margin of error and set up a confidence interval, to see if the test is valid, or if you need more trials (ie if the variation you saw between the two means could have been due to random sampling error).  I will eat my hooluk hat if mean of sample 1 divided by mean of sample 2  is significantly greater than 1.5.  

 

To test whether brigand _mitigation_ debuffs have any effect whatsoever on your rate of full resists on mobs - which is a separate factor and needs to be tested on its own - you need to run a similar comparison, but comparing the two proportions: Try to mentor down so that your "true" rate of full resists would be high - ie the mob is orange or at least 4 levels yellow, this will help you require fewer trials per sample to be valid.  This time, cast the same spell over and over under the two treatments: A: mob of level xx with no brigand mitigation debuffs on, and B: mob of level xx with either just rake on (easier test, not waiting on dispatch) or rake + dispatch (slower, only will get 2-3 casts per dispatch then wait a minute).  Choose which you want to test, then run a metric !@#$ton of trials for each sample.  Calculate total full resists divided by total casts for each sample.  Next run a 2-proportion Z-test to see if the results are significant, or whether they fail to reject the null.  Null hypothesis: no difference in resist proportion.  Your hypothesis: proportion of resists significantly lower in the brigand debuff sample. 

 

I hope that helps.  Your observations on tarinax are anecodotal to the extreme, and your raid is packed with confounding variables.  In other words: the probability that you could see the kind of variation in results you saw due simply to random sampling variation is very, VERY high, and thus not even close to significant.  Run these tests if you want to find out the truth.  I'll do it myself soon enough, because I want my own conclusive proof to show - but run them yourself if you can't wait to find out.  For now, back to grading for me. 

[Ishbu]

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Aralys wrote:

 

Ishbu, yes you've already described the fights you are using to compare.  You are still ignoring the confounding variables in your raid force, and using an orange con epic which amplifies SoE's already streakier-than-true-random pseudo RNG.  You are still using a sample size of 2 or 3.  I know you really believe this to be true, just like people who take Airborne really believe it's helping them get over a cold more quickly.  It's just not true though, and this can be demonstrated by removing the confounding variables in your raid, and minimizing the extreme variance you introduced by using Tarinax as the testbed for a tiny number of samples.  

 

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Tarinax is the only mob you can test this on.  Why? Because he's the only t7 orange con mob that you can try more than once every 5 days.  There are always going to be a few variables that are literally impossible to control.  The fact is a brigand makes such a clear cut difference on an orange con raid mob it is ridiculous.  Do I have 1000 parses to show it?  No, but then again when I see such an obvious pattern I dont need to. 

For the record the overall sample size is several times larger than 2 or 3.  There was one time I made tangarth sit out, there were other times when he was not on.  I took what I learned and saw in those parses and what was in the parses where I had a fixed raid with and without a brigand and made logical conclusions.  That is a fact. 

As for mobs that con yellow?  Nobody has trouble hitting yellow cons in a raid at all.  Every other class that can debuff does just fine against yellow cons.  That doesnt change my point that against orange con mobs there should be another class with debuff abilities similar to what a brigand has.

You honestly wouldnt know what its like without a brigand because you yourself are one.  Name a raid your on when your not present?

EDIT - your tests will do no good at all.  Your tests are to be performed on heroic mobs.  Heroic mobs are nothing compared to a raid mob.  They are two different worlds, two different playstyles.  An orange con heroic mob is no problem for me (or at least werent in t6, are there any in t7?).  An orange con epic is a nightmare trying to land spells.  There is an obvious difference in innate resistances, mitigations, caps, etc in heroic vs epic.

Message Edited by Ishboozor on 05-31-2006 02:22 PM

[kyth]

    i think the debuff cap was raised recently.  I was doing 1154dmg with Grandmaster's Caustic Poison.  Now with around the same int and raid setup i was getting 1256dmg.  Buts yes, they  did raise the "Normal" cap for mitigation debuffs.  Dispatch still works like an over cap though for 13seconds x number of brigands on the raid.  Funny how we recruited 1 brigand then 2 old players come back and play brigands.  Now we raid with 3-4 brigands, and that is how you trivialize any encounter!

[Damari]

well well well, what an interesting thread.

 

How dare brigands have an ability that makes them useful.  Quickly, lets do what ishbu wants and give this class defining ability to another class.  no no no, not a swashy, that would make to much sense, lets give it to a ranger. yeah, good idea.  Give it to a ranger who can sit outside AoE, still be T1 dps and now enjoy utilizing the much coverted 'brigand' debuff.  Oh dear, now we have given it to the rangers, lets get rid of the brigands, they cant range attack, they cant hate transfer, they cant be used for any method of pulling and their places can be better used, whoo hoo, what a brain stormer.  so your fighting Oj raid mobs and having a brigand allows you to actually hit it. OMG thats genius.  You mean you'd like to have a brigand there so it makes your job easier? wow amazing stuff.

 

give you a clue, its what our class is designed to do and its why we are there.  You as a player choose your class, play it and stop looking over the fence screaming for skills you have no entitlements to.

 

And as for auto-attack dps being so high. Inquis + berserker + troub = any dps class can do very high dps including fighter types.  You guys make me laugh thinking your alone in this bonanza of dps.

[Ishbu]

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Damari wrote:

well well well, what an interesting thread.

 

How dare brigands have an ability that makes them useful.  Quickly, lets do what ishbu wants and give this class defining ability to another class.  no no no, not a swashy, that would make to much sense, lets give it to a ranger. yeah, good idea.  Give it to a ranger who can sit outside AoE, still be T1 dps and now enjoy utilizing the much coverted 'brigand' debuff.  Oh dear, now we have given it to the rangers, lets get rid of the brigands, they cant range attack, they cant hate transfer, they cant be used for any method of pulling and their places can be better used, whoo hoo, what a brain stormer.  so your fighting Oj raid mobs and having a brigand allows you to actually hit it. OMG thats genius.  You mean you'd like to have a brigand there so it makes your job easier? wow amazing stuff.

 

give you a clue, its what our class is designed to do and its why we are there.  You as a player choose your class, play it and stop looking over the fence screaming for skills you have no entitlements to.

 

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Dude get a clue.  First off, if you as a brigand arent out dpsing a ranger, you are a bad player, period.  Rangers suck, wich is why I suggested them.  If you cant out dps rangers you dont know how to play your class and there is no arguement against that, your just bad.

Second, I dont play a ranger.  I play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mage and no way am I suggesting I should get this ability.

[kyth]

    hah.

[Carna]

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Ishboozor wrote:

Dude get a clue.  First off, if you as a brigand arent out dpsing a ranger, you are a bad player, period.  Rangers suck, wich is why I suggested them.  If you cant out dps rangers you dont know how to play your class and there is no arguement against that, your just bad.

Second, I dont play a ranger.  I play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mage and no way am I suggesting I should get this ability.

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Well unlike yourself I play both a Brigand (62) and a Ranger (52) and you're talking out your [Removed for Content].

[Snarks]

hes clearly speaking from a raiding perspective, and because at a certain point you must turn to raiding to reach the full potential of your character, its a valid point for anyone

[Carna]

The thing is nobody notices the Rogue that is parsing halfway down the list. People do notice the Ranger who isn't at the top of the list and take for granted those Rangers that are. There are well played and badly played Rangers and Rogues. People notice the badly played Rangers far more, and badly played Rogues can go largely unoticed.

Yes I think Rangers need to be doing a bit more damage especially on raids where a couple of their key skills are outright broken. No I don't think Rangers suck, and neither do those Rangers that are getting to the top of the lists on their guild raids. What Rangers need is SoA beefed up.

Rangers are Predators. The point of comparison is between Rangers and Assassins. The idea of turning them into ranged Rogues is half-baked.

[sociobiologi]

Kythik wrote:

"Now we raid with 3-4 brigands, and that is how you trivialize any encounter!"

I write:

"First of all the statement is wrong. Second and most importantly it is a perfect example of nerfcrier food."

 

Common guys, be good briggs and place ducktape over mouth, or more properly keyboard. I thought we were the only "wise class", at least tactically on boards.

 

As for DPS

Necro > Conj > Wizard > Warlock > Assassin > Ranger > Zerker > Bruiser > Swash > Brigs etc.......................... 

 

[verydanger]

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sociobiologist wrote:

"First of all the statement is wrong. Second and most importantly it is a perfect example of nerfcrier food."

 Common guys, be good briggs and place ducktape over mouth, or more properly keyboard. I thought we were the only "wise class", at least tactically on boards.

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And I say, do you really think a few loudmouths on a forum are given some kind of deciding power by a company like the developers of this game? Just me that finds that a wee bit naive, not to mention paranoid?

[sociobiologi]

Well I consider it not being naive.

I have seen nerfcrying lead to nerfage time and time again. In EQ, EQ2, AO, AC, COH etc. Nerfcrying stems from boasting or observations of other classes doing too good leading to jelousy.

The logic is: Boasting leads to nerfcrying leading to the magnifying glass being held over mentioned mechanics leading to "adjustment" aka nerfage.

 

[Ishbu]

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Carnagh wrote:

The thing is nobody notices the Rogue that is parsing halfway down the list. People do notice the Ranger who isn't at the top of the list and take for granted those Rangers that are. There are well played and badly played Rangers and Rogues. People notice the badly played Rangers far more, and badly played Rogues can go largely unoticed.

Yes I think Rangers need to be doing a bit more damage especially on raids where a couple of their key skills are outright broken. No I don't think Rangers suck, and neither do those Rangers that are getting to the top of the lists on their guild raids. What Rangers need is SoA beefed up.

Rangers are Predators. The point of comparison is between Rangers and Assassins. The idea of turning them into ranged Rogues is half-baked.

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Correction, I notice the rogues halfway down the list who are slacking.  If the rogue is only in the middle of the raid for dps, they suck and have no place on a raid with my guild.

Lets put it this way, if you take an equally geared brigand, and an equally geared ranger, both of comparative skill level, the brigand will out dps the ranger, period.

The rangers who get on top of their guilds parses are good players in guilds with people who are not nearly as good as them.  Find the highest parsing ranger world wide, throw him in our raid and he will not stand a chance at cracking the top 5, even with a great group set up. 

Im all for giving rangers more dps to put them where they should be in terms of the dps tiers, but then I will just have to find another class that would be appropriate to have debuffs around the similar levels as brigands.  Swashbucklers are the obvious answer but as krythik pointed out they are the more offensively based debuffers.  Rangers just seemed like a good choice because right now they are lower dps and much much lower debuffing/utility than rogues are.  No matter what though, based on SOE's idea that at LEAST two classes can fill any roll in this game, some other class needs to have at least one of the big debuffs that brigands get.  Shaman do the dps debuff better than a swashbuckler, and Im not even asking for anyone to do it better than a brigand, just someone to do it comparabley.

[sociobiologi]

Stop the god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] jelousy!

 

Giving classes more of the same abilities turns the game dull.

[Ishbu]

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sociobiologist wrote:

Stop the god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] jelousy!

 

Giving classes more of the same abilities turns the game dull.

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Stop being ignorant to the obviously monoply brigands have! 

The senior producer of the game in a recent dev interview even said certain things arent balanced in ways that would be good for all players because it would create too big of a gap between people that have and dont have an enchanter.  That envelops two classes.  Brigands are ONE class.  It clearly wasnt intended for just one class to have the massive difference making ability against any orange con epic that they currently posses. 

Your outcry sounds like a defensive reaction against a nerf.  I am not suggesting you get nerfed but I am saying that you shouldnt have a monoply on this.  Any real raider will tell you what a huge difference a brigand makes in these encounters.  You would have to be blind not to see it.  No one class should ever make up to a 50% difference, period.  There needs to be at least one other class with similar abilities, not a combination of 5+ classes that can do similar things once you add them all together.  It holds true for all other classes in game, including your counterpart the swashbuckler, what makes brigands the exception?

[verydanger]

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sociobiologist wrote:

Well I consider it not being naive.

I have seen nerfcrying lead to nerfage time and time again. In EQ, EQ2, AO, AC, COH etc. Nerfcrying stems from boasting or observations of other classes doing too good leading to jelousy.

The logic is: Boasting leads to nerfcrying leading to the magnifying glass being held over mentioned mechanics leading to "adjustment" aka nerfage.

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Well if this 'adjustment' was warranted, then what happened was just healthy for the game no? I dont think anyone has a problem with fixes and balancing that they can agree make sense, unless you are the kind of person that gets a kick from exploiting stuff.What leads to these discussions I feel is people thinking that 'nerfcrying' leads to UNWARRANTED nerfs. And thats when I say, people can cry all they want, the game has not  and is not going to be changed unless the developers themselves feel it should. I give the developers that much credit. If for no other reason, because it would be pretty poor business practice to change a product based on what a VERY small percentage of its consumers feel. I bet some of the the most frequent posters on this boards alone have a higher postcount than 90% of the playerbase alltogether...

[Montaigu]

Ish...........You sure you arent a ranger?  Looks like fish, smells like fish.................must be fish!

 

You really sound like a ranger.............and a disgruntled one at that.  How else are we to explain this CRUSADE on your on behalf of rangers every where?  Damd, I guess your just such a nice guy.  Always looking out for the lil guys, the ones that cant defend, speak for themselves.  How noble of you!

 

So.....by your own statement, "Correction, I notice the rogues halfway down the list who are slacking.  If the rogue is only in the middle of the raid for dps, they suck and have no place on a raid with my guild", you are your own worst enemy!  So only the rogue in your guild are allowed to parse in the top 5?  And if they dont they get kicked out?  No other classes parse in the top 5!  Do you think that maybe it is because your made it that way?  You booted all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Rogues out of your guild and now you are left with only the elite ones, who have to compete with all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] people you didnt boot out, cause you seem to have some kind of flaming hard on for Brigands.

 

That maybe all your Brigands are using an exploit that is temporarily allowing them to DPS higher?  That maybe just maybe, your oh so elite other DPS classes suck at playing there character.   I monitior the Parser like a hawk.  And I can tell you right off the back, that the Brigand in my guild is practically never in the Top 10!  In fact, i have never seen this Brigand DPS higher than 721!  Do I think that is because Brigands suck?  NO!  Thou I can certainly tell you that many people in the guild think they are just a Debuff Class and not DPS.  Thats not what I think thou.  I think that when people dont parse high on a continual basis it is usually for one of two reason.  1) they actually dont know how to play their class.....or 2) they are too busy chatting and doing multiple other things, instead of focusing on the raid.

 

Secondly, there is no such thing as an equally geared Ranger and Brigand.  And I say this since your guild according to your own words is so ELITE, that it kicks people out if they are slacking in anyway what so ever, then I must assume that your Brigands are all geared top of the line............meaning that they are all using a the Wurmslayer as a 1 Hander!  Hence they are not on par with an equally geared Ranger because your Brigands are using an EXPLOIT to achieve DPS that they were never intended to achieve.  With that in mind, I am moving with a motion to have all the Brigands in Ish's Elite guild suspended for whatever time period SOE sees fit.  Additionally, Ishboozer's account should also be suspended because he is a leader in the guild, who knew his people where using an exploit for the good of the guild.  As a leader, he should have known better.  And yes, using a 2 Hand weapon as a 1Hander can be considered an exploit.  Taking advantage of a faulty game mechanic.

 

Ranger should never get debuffs.  Only in your crack piped mind does that sound reasonable.

 

Lastly, if anyone is curious of these boasters stated DPS numbers.  Which I find BS myself.  Dont request log files from them.  How do we know the logs are being manipulated (retyped)?  Just find out what server they are on, start a character, you dont even have to level it up much, and go parse their fight yourself.  Then you will know without a doubt what they parse at.

 

 

[ag]

Ishboozer,We don't have a monopoly on mitigation debuffs, either physical or magical. Many many many other classes have them. And they're very very very good.In this genre, someone has to be the best at something. If another class had the best of something (oh wait, they all DO) I would be cheering them on, not tearing them down. I'm happy when someone has their day in the sun. It's fun for them.

[Ishbu]

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agra wrote:
Ishboozer,

We don't have a monopoly on mitigation debuffs, either physical or magical. Many many many other classes have them. And they're very very very good.

In this genre, someone has to be the best at something. If another class had the best of something (oh wait, they all DO) I would be cheering them on, not tearing them down. I'm happy when someone has their day in the sun. It's fun for them.

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Um....nobody has even remotely close to the ability to debuff physical or all magical like a brigand.  Not even close.

What exactly are rangers and swashbucklers the best at?

Again, I am not saying you still cant be the best at debuffing EVERYTHING.  But another class needs comparable levels.  Why are you so against some class getting a big physcail debuff that is 5-10% worse than yours and another class getting a magical debuff that is again 5-10% worse?  You would still be the best, you would lose none of your abilities, but it woudl make it so another class can fill the brigand roll if need be.  Every other class in game has another class that can fill their roll, brigands should not be the exception.

[ag]

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Ishboozor wrote:Um....nobody has even remotely close to the ability to debuff physical or all magical like a brigand.  Not even close.

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Your information is inaccurate. If you can't be bothered to examine the abilities of other classes, I'm sure not going to do it for you, but rest assured, there are many, and they are in fact well within reasonably close to what a Brigand can do.Furthermore, Grandmasters Warding Ebb (the poison) gives all rogues and predators ~900 debuff to all magical mitigation. (all non-physical resists).Templars, Coercers, Defilers, and Guardians all have physical and/or magical (non-physical) mitigation debuffs.It may be worth your time to actually go right now and look at those abilities in game via Linky. I think you'll be surprised at how the numbers really stack up with respect to everyone else vs. Brigands on the debuff front.Specifically, you may want to define what you mean by "Not even close". Does that mean half as effective? So are you saying that if a Brigand could debuff a particular mitigation by 1000, if someone else could only do it by 500, that's not even close? Or do you mean 25%? or 10%? At what point numerically does "not even close" come into play, in your opinion?Given the above information is accurate, if you're unwilling or unable or not inclined to go and do a numeric comparison of debuff values across all classes in an unbiased, unemotional, unenvious way... well, let's just see how this goes.

[Ishbu]

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Montaigu wrote:

Ish...........You sure you arent a ranger?  Looks like fish, smells like fish.................must be fish!

 

You really sound like a ranger.............and a disgruntled one at that.  How else are we to explain this CRUSADE on your on behalf of rangers every where?  Damd, I guess your just such a nice guy.  Always looking out for the lil guys, the ones that cant defend, speak for themselves.  How noble of you!

 

So.....by your own statement, "Correction, I notice the rogues halfway down the list who are slacking.  If the rogue is only in the middle of the raid for dps, they suck and have no place on a raid with my guild", you are your own worst enemy!  So only the rogue in your guild are allowed to parse in the top 5?  And if they dont they get kicked out?  No other classes parse in the top 5!  Do you think that maybe it is because your made it that way?  You booted all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Rogues out of your guild and now you are left with only the elite ones, who have to compete with all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] people you didnt boot out, cause you seem to have some kind of flaming hard on for Brigands.

 

That maybe all your Brigands are using an exploit that is temporarily allowing them to DPS higher?  That maybe just maybe, your oh so elite other DPS classes suck at playing there character.   I monitior the Parser like a hawk.  And I can tell you right off the back, that the Brigand in my guild is practically never in the Top 10!  In fact, i have never seen this Brigand DPS higher than 721!  Do I think that is because Brigands suck?  NO!  Thou I can certainly tell you that many people in the guild think they are just a Debuff Class and not DPS.  Thats not what I think thou.  I think that when people dont parse high on a continual basis it is usually for one of two reason.  1) they actually dont know how to play their class.....or 2) they are too busy chatting and doing multiple other things, instead of focusing on the raid.

 

Secondly, there is no such thing as an equally geared Ranger and Brigand.  And I say this since your guild according to your own words is so ELITE, that it kicks people out if they are slacking in anyway what so ever, then I must assume that your Brigands are all geared top of the line............meaning that they are all using a the Wurmslayer as a 1 Hander!  Hence they are not on par with an equally geared Ranger because your Brigands are using an EXPLOIT to achieve DPS that they were never intended to achieve.  With that in mind, I am moving with a motion to have all the Brigands in Ish's Elite guild suspended for whatever time period SOE sees fit.  Additionally, Ishboozer's account should also be suspended because he is a leader in the guild, who knew his people where using an exploit for the good of the guild.  As a leader, he should have known better.  And yes, using a 2 Hand weapon as a 1Hander can be considered an exploit.  Taking advantage of a faulty game mechanic.

 

Ranger should never get debuffs.  Only in your crack piped mind does that sound reasonable.

 

Lastly, if anyone is curious of these boasters stated DPS numbers.  Which I find BS myself.  Dont request log files from them.  How do we know the logs are being manipulated (retyped)?  Just find out what server they are on, start a character, you dont even have to level it up much, and go parse their fight yourself.  Then you will know without a doubt what they parse at.

 

 

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I am not sure why I am replying to you.  It is quite evident you A) do not know who I am, B) do not know who my guild is, and C) do not know about high end raiding.  Thus making your whole post fairly irrelavent since it is directly addressed to me.

Yes, we are an elitiest guild.  We dont even have enough people to field a full raid force(and 2 people are recruits who just got recruited the other day), now name a mob  that anyone anywhere can kill that we cant.  Oh wait, there are none.  I have no room for slack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] players.  We know what the different classes are capable of and we do not accept anyone to member status unless they are at or near the very top of the bar. 

Our brigand posts quite often.  He has posted on this thread.  You know what?  If he would parse 720 like your brigand he would probably cry.  That is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing terrible.  Period.  Ask krythik here if he would be happy parsing 720, I am sure he would be ashamed if that was his average parse, let alone his high!

As for the wumslayer thing, Im thinking, I am not sure there is a single person in my guild who uses it as described above.  Tangarth is the only scout that possibly could that has one and last I checked he was duel weilding.  Either way, yeah Im going to be suspended because maybe someone in my guild at some point used it as a 1hander, lol.  You would think if they were actually suspending people who did that (I highly doubt they ever would, its not that big of a deal at all)  they would go after the hundreds of people doing it instead of the guild leader of maybe one person.  Your knowledge of how things work astounds all.

Did you know rangers actually already have some debuffs, not to mention poisons?  Somehow I dont think you did since you said, and I quote "rangers should never get debuffs".  I am sure the ranger community would love to know that you think in relation to having absoutely terrible utility and very low dps for a t1 dps class, that they should also have all their debuffs stripped from them. 

About your parse question, there are a few people on our server who run around and parse us.  They can tell you these numbers are not made up.  Any high end guild can tell you they are not made up.  Just because your guilded with [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty people who can only break 700 dps at best doeant mean we all are.

And wow, I cant beleive you seriously are dumb enough to still think I am a ranger.  You do realize that big flashing signature at the end of everyone of my posts links to my eq2player profile, wich also shows my alts.  No rangers there.

Its funny, I know me and krythik dont agree on this issue at all, but I bet he would agree with me that you really have no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idea what your talking about.

[Ishbu]

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agra wrote:




Your information is inaccurate. If you can't be bothered to examine the abilities of other classes, I'm sure not going to do it for you, but rest assured, there are many, and they are in fact well within reasonably close to what a Brigand can do.

Furthermore, Grandmasters Warding Ebb (the poison) gives all rogues and predators ~900 debuff to all magical mitigation. (all non-physical resists).

Templars, Coercers, Defilers, and Guardians all have physical and/or magical (non-physical) mitigation debuffs.

It may be worth your time to actually go right now and look at those abilities in game via Linky. I think you'll be surprised at how the numbers really stack up with respect to everyone else vs. Brigands on the debuff front.

Specifically, you may want to define what you mean by "Not even close". Does that mean half as effective? So are you saying that if a Brigand could debuff a particular mitigation by 1000, if someone else could only do it by 500, that's not even close? Or do you mean 25%? or 10%? At what point numerically does "not even close" come into play, in your opinion?

Given the above information is accurate, if you're unwilling or unable or not inclined to go and do a numeric comparison of debuff values across all classes in an unbiased, unemotional, unenvious way... well, let's just see how this goes.

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I am currently at work, but when I get home I will bring the exact numbers, obviously posting anything in the rough neighborhood is just going to result in extreme scrutiny by others. 

Ill say this though, poisons cant really count because the brigand can also use them.  It brings say an assassin 900 points closer, but the brigand can use it to gain that 900 points back. 

As for reasonably close, I would say it changes the higher the numbers get.  500 to 1000 is not reaosonably close because one is 2x as good as the other, but 1500 to 2000 is reasonable close imo. 

The thing is, there is NO class that can come close when you stack your skills together.  Especially when you make use of your double up feature.  Is stacking them always the best route since they do not last forever?  No, but it is possible and nobody else can do it.

[Pins]

So, other people can try to stack as high as a brigand, sure. But the fact is, without a brigand you get nowhere near the cap. Even with everybody using their debuffs and then comparing with and without a brigand you will notice that the DPS increases a lot, even though people can stack to get as high as a brigand can solo. There's obviously something to do with how debuffs stack that is causing this issue, which could be the problem of why Brigand's are so powerful with their debuffs.Yah, brigands debuff a flat 2000 against all mitigation(2 timers, 60s recast, 72s duration, we all know this), and then can debuff a flat 3500 against all mitigations as well(1 timer, 60s recast, 13s duration). But what we don't know is how the debuffs stack, and whether they work like buffing a reist does in a linear path. I bet you take the best debuff on the mob, add a portion of the 2nd debuff, a smaller portion of the 3rd, and so on down the line. This is what is causing the problem. That being, because brigands get the best debuff, that 2k helps the most, and the 3.5k helps even more.Then again, just try fighting Tarniax several times without a brigand and you will see a HUGE difference, even if you have a Swashbuckler, Templar, Coercer, Dirge, Defiler all debuffing the mob's mitigations. We're talking getting Tarniax down to 40% with a raid of 21 with a Swashbuckler, vs. a raid of 22 killing Tarniax with 2 Brigands instead of 1 Swashbuckler. Don't believe it? Do the test yourself and drop brigands from the raid to see this difference.Oh, and Ishbu is a Conjuror, not a crappy Ranger.

Message Edited by Pinski on 06-01-2006 10:53 AM