Brigand Issues - Old - Page 2

Damari · 02-26-2005, 09:24 AM

I'd like to add that I believe theres a problem with strangling shot. I have been using a shortbow with carbonite arrows since level 20. I target a mob and use the CA, arrow fires, draws mobs attention and it attacks. the error is that the shot does no damage and an error comes up saying the mob is out of range.

thxs

Damari

Gn · 02-27-2005, 04:51 AM

Another issue to add to the list, but possibly more for skills in general.

I just upgraded Evade from App something to Adept III. The only change was a drop in the power requirement from 74 to 70. OOOH!

I imagine Evade is just one skill on a long list that isn't effected by upgrades.

Is anyone compiling a list comparing App I, App IV, Adept I, and Adept III skills ? It would be very beneficial as useless upgrades can get a bit expensive.

EDIT: Oops, actually, it costs 83 instead of 74 power. Same description otherwise. It's also white to me. Not sure what my app version was.

Message Edited by Gnef on 02-26-2005 05:09 PM

Damari · 02-28-2005, 03:49 AM

Gnef,

I was about to make my own adept3 evade, you didn't notice an increase in the hate reduction?

Damari

Gn · 02-28-2005, 06:41 PM

Assuming the examine of each spell is correct, there is no additional hate reduction. It's still 18-30.

Does it seem any better forgetting the details provided in-game... I do remember being surprised a few times when evade worked after upgrading, but that may just have been someone hitting taunt as I hit evade.

If the descriptions are generally wrong, it would be good to know.

ag · 03-02-2005, 08:46 PM

Yeah... this isn't so good..

You'd think there'd be a much larger improvement considering it's 14 levels later..

Whiteka · 03-02-2005, 10:10 PM

Early on I found a piece a copper and went through the work of having it turned into ink.

A short time later, a shiny new Pathfinding Adept III spell was produced and soon scribed.

The effect: Zero change.

My brigand runs no faster then any other scout class with pathfinding.

If certain spells are not meant to be upgraded, could it please be stated somewhere? and or the spells taken out of the recipe books?

There are so many other things I could have used that copper for. And now it seems wasted and I've lost on the benefits it could have produced elsewhere.

Message Edited by Whitekami on 03-02-2005 09:12 AM

Korelen · 03-02-2005, 11:00 PM

agra wrote:You'd think there'd be a much larger improvement considering it's 14 levels later..

I would say that is a bug, and you should /bug, /feedback it in game

Sierrus · 03-02-2005, 11:25 PM

well Daring Advance Adept 1 gives 32 attack was it ? i got Master 1 copy of Daring Advance for an additional 2 attack over adept 1.... awesome! ;p

Gn · 03-03-2005, 12:03 AM

Chock up another useless upgrade - Snag (it was a mostly useless spell to begin with)

App 1 and Master I have the same effect with Master 1's HUGE advantage being that it requires more power

ag · 03-09-2005, 11:00 PM

Updated as per 20050308 patch. Please reply with corrections, if any.

Kende · 03-09-2005, 11:59 PM

agra wrote:
Yeah... this isn't so good.. [clipped picture - see below]

You'd think there'd be a much larger improvement considering it's 14 levels later..

I'm assuming (:smileytongue: ) you took the screenshot of both at skill 208?
You need to compare the upgrade at the level you first get it to the previous one when you first got it (i.e. @ skill 13 SMILEY .
Note: I took my screenshot @ skill 150.

Comparing them when they were both relatively new (i.e. orange) nets a better improvement (debatable, heh):

Decrease Defense worse by 1
Increase P, C, and S improved by 3

You were 20 points above Mastery for Risky Advance and just at Required for Daring Advance. Maybe when you are 20 points above Mastery for Daring Adance (i.e. 278, unobtainable), you will see even better improvements over Risky Advance SMILEY

Kend
31 Brigand
Black Talons
Najena server

Brigand Combat Arts upgrade paths (shared timers)

Kende · 03-10-2005, 12:05 AM

To continue:

Since it seems that our Mastery skill of the previous art scales somewhat smoothly into the Required skill for the upgrade art (or close), why have any upgrade at all? Why not just have the arts continue to scale throughout the Brigands levels? I guess because it makes it look like we are getting new arts every so many levels :smileysad:

Either use only 1 art that scales throughout our levels, or give us significant upgrades!

Kend
31 Brigand
Black Talons
Najena server

Brigand Combat Arts upgrade paths (shared timers)

Message Edited by Kendera on 03-09-2005 02:51 PM

ag · 03-10-2005, 12:05 AM

Fair enough, but the Skill Mastery for Risky Advance is 188. The Min Skill for Daring Advance is 208. What happened to the four levels in between there?I wholeheartedly agree that at 188, your argument is valid, if the one skill picked up exactly where the other left off, numerically. But in this case, There's a 4 level gap of improvement that is "missing" from my perspective.I suspect (although I don't have a screenshot to prove it) that Daring Advance App3 would be exactly the same or worse than Risky Advance Adept 1.That's a skill 14 levels below me being the same (or better) than the skill I just got. To me, that is just wrong. SMILEY

Kende · 03-10-2005, 12:21 AM

I'm guessing that the previous art goes White at its' Mastery skill, and that it probably doesn't do any scaling after Mastery. I'm also guessing that it will go Gray not long after you get the upgrade. That would account for the 20 skill points (i.e 4 levels), since at 208 (20 points above Mastery) it was still green.

See my post right above yours (probably as you were writing yours). I agree that they should be better upgrades.

Kend
31 Brigand
Black Talons
Najena server

Brigand Combat Arts upgrade paths (shared timers)

Eris · 03-10-2005, 11:49 PM

Rough skin str bonus and knave strenght bonus do not stack. Dunno if its bug or intended but well worth mentioning it here since i havent found anything from dev stating its how it should be

Damari · 03-14-2005, 04:26 AM

I noticed similar threads about this, but thought I'd put my experience in.

Cravens Walk.

Would be sneaking arround like a good brigand should and would see a potential mark.

Would open up with a bow attack, thus bringing me out of stealth mode.

While the furious mob would be charging to me, I can usually finiah a HO on it

If im lucky, maybe even another CA attack.

When the mob finally hits for the first time, bang! I've feigned death, the encounter is broken and the mob is re-healled.

I have bugged this ingame several times, but it is broke and needed to be added to the list.

Thxs

Damari

ag · 03-15-2005, 08:29 PM

Damari,I think what you're describing is a successfull feign. That's why the encounter is broken, because effectively, the encounter no longer has a target (you're "gone", from it's perspective).The new Craven Walk / Lurk is causing massive problems, there's no doubt. I'm not sure if there's a solution, to be honest.At this point, I'd rather see the skill broken (like it was for weeks) than the way it is now. Having to right-click-cancel Cower at the start of every fight because i'm taking AoE damage when trying to BushWhack is just a tad annoying.

Fairlane · 03-16-2005, 12:31 AM

One thing I would have liked to seen done differently is our level 50 fluff spell. Most classes at 50 get something that is special to their class. Shadowknights get a glowing red fire aura that cover one of their hands. Wardens get a swirling green aura surronding their avatar. Assassins get an awesome looking pulsating shadow effect. On the other hand Brigands get an effect that any character at level 1 with a few gold can emulate. Illusion: Ogre IMO is a pretty big let down for countless hours of work. It would have been nice to have something on par with the rest of the level 50 fluff spells. Just my opinion.

-Cheeb of Neriak

Dimidri · 03-17-2005, 12:17 PM

You people want to make me stay level 30 until everything is fixed =(

ag · 03-22-2005, 11:15 AM

Updated to reflect changes in the 20050321 patch. If you want something added I've missed from the patch, throw it here in the thread, and I'll put it in ASAP.

Gyilok · 03-22-2005, 12:48 PM

all combat arts have a decreased damage in description, my waylay has lost about 70 dmg from max, this was the most obvious, but also Subdue has lots about 50, going from 371 to 321 for example, maybe to get them nearer to the amounts you are actually hitting for, maybe not, only ruse has the same dmg indicated but that aint worth shet as we all know

to sum it all up there have been a lot of changes to our skills without any notice AGAIN

Message Edited by Gyilok on 03-21-2005 11:50 PM

Andai · 03-22-2005, 04:38 PM

Sap, the upgrade skill to Black Jack, seem to not be HO-active as Black Jack is. Just noticed it last night so i'm not sure if this was the case pre-patch also.

Message Edited by Andai on 03-22-2005 01:06 PM

Message Edited by Andai on 03-22-2005 01:07 PM

Taraxus · 03-23-2005, 05:08 PM

Poison: There need to be fixed much. It cant be that brigands as dps class have to pay for poison which is fading 20 minutes after activation (possibly about ~100 procs).

As already mentioned on top of this thread most 40+ skills arent balanced in any case. The de-aggro plead for mercy works exaclty as pray for mercy (it deaggros the same value and i got both on adp 1, so this upgrade is completely useless).

If SOE implements Stealth Attacks for Brigands then we need Stealhs without FD-component to use them without problems. If you give use ruse then keep it work. Unlike to the Assassins who can easyly use their corresponding skill simply without going in FD.

I wrote a bunch of bug-repots since november last year but most of them are still not changed.

If SOE doesnt balance and fix this bad things in near future we see us in ANOTHER WORLD.

*bow and bye*

Message Edited by Taraxus on 04-05-2005 02:12 AM

ag · 03-27-2005, 11:35 PM

updated the list, added a few new items. Brigands, please review and add any items you think require attention to this thread.

Fairlane · 03-29-2005, 10:19 AM

As of today (3/28/05) the Brigand combat art Forceful Negotiation is not working as intended or implied. It does do the stated damage to the target encounter but it does not increase the Agility of the caster for the duration of the effect. Would be nice to see this implemeted. Thanks and keep up the good work.

-Cheeb of Neriak

Gyilok · 03-29-2005, 11:26 AM

Fairlane wrote:

As of today (3/28/05) the Brigand combat art Forceful Negotiation is not working as intended or implied. It does do the stated damage to the target encounter but it does not increase the Agility of the caster for the duration of the effect. Would be nice to see this implemeted. Thanks and keep up the good work.

-Cheeb of Neriak

it does, it just does not stack with aegis, or whatever selfbuff you have on

Dimidri · 04-01-2005, 05:38 AM

Hopefully, the change on test will make it live for Knave and Rough skin, apparently the strength buffs will now stack.

ag · 04-04-2005, 10:45 PM

Added three new issues.. if anyone has found any more HO completions that don't "fire" from non-damaging arts, please post them.

Dtrick · 04-04-2005, 11:38 PM

HOs that don't activate:

Any of our AoE skills (30 training one, forceful negotiation, etc.) will not complete ringing blow, but they will complete swindlers luck. I have never had a chance to test it on Bravo's Dance.

Ruse will not complete either HOs (haven't tried Bravo's Dance). It acts as it completes both swindlers luck and ringing blow, but it does not do any damage.

Scout/Fighter - Luck's Bite will not do any damage to the mob if you use a buff with the hood icon (i.e. knave). If you use an attack with the hood icon (sap) it will do the damage to the mob.

Also, Blackjack had the sword icon and its upgrade Sap has a hood icon.

Andai · 04-05-2005, 02:37 PM

Dtrick wrote:

Also, Blackjack had the sword icon and its upgrade Sap has a hood icon.

Thank you so much Dtrick, that would explain the problem i posted about a few posts up.

02-26-2005, 09:24 AM	#31
Damari Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 274	I'd like to add that I believe theres a problem with strangling shot. I have been using a shortbow with carbonite arrows since level 20. I target a mob and use the CA, arrow fires, draws mobs attention and it attacks. the error is that the shot does no damage and an error comes up saying the mob is out of range. thxs Damari __________________ Damari, Master of the Clobber (Nexus) Najena

02-28-2005, 03:49 AM	#33
Damari Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 274	Gnef, I was about to make my own adept3 evade, you didn't notice an increase in the hate reduction? Damari __________________ Damari, Master of the Clobber (Nexus) Najena

03-02-2005, 08:46 PM	#35
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	Yeah... this isn't so good..You'd think there'd be a much larger improvement considering it's 14 levels later.. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

03-02-2005, 11:00 PM	#37
Korelen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	agra wrote:You'd think there'd be a much larger improvement considering it's 14 levels later.. I would say that is a bug, and you should /bug, /feedback it in game __________________

03-09-2005, 11:00 PM	#40
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	Updated as per 20050308 patch. Please reply with corrections, if any. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

02-27-2005, 04:51 AM	#32
Gn Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30	Another issue to add to the list, but possibly more for skills in general. I just upgraded Evade from App something to Adept III. The only change was a drop in the power requirement from 74 to 70. OOOH! I imagine Evade is just one skill on a long list that isn't effected by upgrades. Is anyone compiling a list comparing App I, App IV, Adept I, and Adept III skills ? It would be very beneficial as useless upgrades can get a bit expensive. EDIT: Oops, actually, it costs 83 instead of 74 power. Same description otherwise. It's also white to me. Not sure what my app version was. Message Edited by Gnef on 02-26-2005 05:09 PM

02-28-2005, 06:41 PM	#34
Gn Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30	Assuming the examine of each spell is correct, there is no additional hate reduction. It's still 18-30. Does it seem any better forgetting the details provided in-game... I do remember being surprised a few times when evade worked after upgrading, but that may just have been someone hitting taunt as I hit evade. If the descriptions are generally wrong, it would be good to know.

03-02-2005, 10:10 PM	#36
Whiteka Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1	Early on I found a piece a copper and went through the work of having it turned into ink. A short time later, a shiny new Pathfinding Adept III spell was produced and soon scribed. The effect: Zero change. My brigand runs no faster then any other scout class with pathfinding. If certain spells are not meant to be upgraded, could it please be stated somewhere? and or the spells taken out of the recipe books? There are so many other things I could have used that copper for. And now it seems wasted and I've lost on the benefits it could have produced elsewhere. Message Edited by Whitekami on 03-02-2005 09:12 AM

03-02-2005, 11:25 PM	#38
Sierrus Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 40	well Daring Advance Adept 1 gives 32 attack was it ? i got Master 1 copy of Daring Advance for an additional 2 attack over adept 1.... awesome! ;p

03-03-2005, 12:03 AM	#39
Gn Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30	Chock up another useless upgrade - Snag (it was a mostly useless spell to begin with) App 1 and Master I have the same effect with Master 1's HUGE advantage being that it requires more power

03-09-2005, 11:59 PM	#41
Kende Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 104	agra wrote: Yeah... this isn't so good.. [clipped picture - see below] You'd think there'd be a much larger improvement considering it's 14 levels later.. I'm assuming (:smileytongue: ) you took the screenshot of both at skill 208? You need to compare the upgrade at the level you first get it to the previous one when you first got it (i.e. @ skill 13. Note: I took my screenshot @ skill 150. Comparing them when they were both relatively new (i.e. orange) nets a better improvement (debatable, heh): Decrease Defense worse by 1 Increase P, C, and S improved by 3 You were 20 points above Mastery for Risky Advance and just at Required for Daring Advance. Maybe when you are 20 points above Mastery for Daring Adance (i.e. 278, unobtainable), you will see even better improvements over Risky Advance Kend 31 Brigand Black Talons Najena server Brigand Combat Arts upgrade paths (shared timers)

03-10-2005, 12:05 AM	#42
Kende Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 104	To continue: Since it seems that our Mastery skill of the previous art scales somewhat smoothly into the Required skill for the upgrade art (or close), why have any upgrade at all? Why not just have the arts continue to scale throughout the Brigands levels? I guess because it makes it look like we are getting new arts every so many levels :smileysad: Either use only 1 art that scales throughout our levels, or give us significant upgrades! Kend 31 Brigand Black Talons Najena server Brigand Combat Arts upgrade paths (shared timers) Message Edited by Kendera on 03-09-2005 02:51 PM

03-10-2005, 12:21 AM	#44
Kende Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 104	I'm guessing that the previous art goes White at its' Mastery skill, and that it probably doesn't do any scaling after Mastery. I'm also guessing that it will go Gray not long after you get the upgrade. That would account for the 20 skill points (i.e 4 levels), since at 208 (20 points above Mastery) it was still green. See my post right above yours (probably as you were writing yours). I agree that they should be better upgrades. Kend 31 Brigand Black Talons Najena server Brigand Combat Arts upgrade paths (shared timers)

03-10-2005, 11:49 PM	#45
Eris Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 128	Rough skin str bonus and knave strenght bonus do not stack. Dunno if its bug or intended but well worth mentioning it here since i havent found anything from dev stating its how it should be

03-14-2005, 04:26 AM	#46
Damari Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 274	I noticed similar threads about this, but thought I'd put my experience in. Cravens Walk. Would be sneaking arround like a good brigand should and would see a potential mark. Would open up with a bow attack, thus bringing me out of stealth mode. While the furious mob would be charging to me, I can usually finiah a HO on it If im lucky, maybe even another CA attack. When the mob finally hits for the first time, bang! I've feigned death, the encounter is broken and the mob is re-healled. I have bugged this ingame several times, but it is broke and needed to be added to the list. Thxs Damari __________________ Damari, Master of the Clobber (Nexus) Najena

03-15-2005, 08:29 PM	#47
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	Damari,I think what you're describing is a successfull feign. That's why the encounter is broken, because effectively, the encounter no longer has a target (you're "gone", from it's perspective).The new Craven Walk / Lurk is causing massive problems, there's no doubt. I'm not sure if there's a solution, to be honest.At this point, I'd rather see the skill broken (like it was for weeks) than the way it is now. Having to right-click-cancel Cower at the start of every fight because i'm taking AoE damage when trying to BushWhack is just a tad annoying. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

03-16-2005, 12:31 AM	#48
Fairlane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	One thing I would have liked to seen done differently is our level 50 fluff spell. Most classes at 50 get something that is special to their class. Shadowknights get a glowing red fire aura that cover one of their hands. Wardens get a swirling green aura surronding their avatar. Assassins get an awesome looking pulsating shadow effect. On the other hand Brigands get an effect that any character at level 1 with a few gold can emulate. Illusion: Ogre IMO is a pretty big let down for countless hours of work. It would have been nice to have something on par with the rest of the level 50 fluff spells. Just my opinion. -Cheeb of Neriak __________________ Cheeb 50 Brigand Ascendance Neriak Server

03-17-2005, 12:17 PM	#49
Dimidri General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 89	You people want to make me stay level 30 until everything is fixed =(

03-22-2005, 11:15 AM	#50
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	Updated to reflect changes in the 20050321 patch. If you want something added I've missed from the patch, throw it here in the thread, and I'll put it in ASAP. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

03-22-2005, 12:48 PM	#51
Gyilok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 696	all combat arts have a decreased damage in description, my waylay has lost about 70 dmg from max, this was the most obvious, but also Subdue has lots about 50, going from 371 to 321 for example, maybe to get them nearer to the amounts you are actually hitting for, maybe not, only ruse has the same dmg indicated but that aint worth shet as we all know to sum it all up there have been a lot of changes to our skills without any notice AGAIN Message Edited by Gyilok on 03-21-2005 11:50 PM __________________ Stizeyo

03-22-2005, 04:38 PM	#52
Andai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 87	Sap, the upgrade skill to Black Jack, seem to not be HO-active as Black Jack is. Just noticed it last night so i'm not sure if this was the case pre-patch also. Message Edited by Andai on 03-22-2005 01:06 PM Message Edited by Andai on 03-22-2005 01:06 PM Message Edited by Andai on 03-22-2005 01:07 PM __________________

03-23-2005, 05:08 PM	#53
Taraxus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 139	Poison: There need to be fixed much. It cant be that brigands as dps class have to pay for poison which is fading 20 minutes after activation (possibly about ~100 procs). As already mentioned on top of this thread most 40+ skills arent balanced in any case. The de-aggro plead for mercy works exaclty as pray for mercy (it deaggros the same value and i got both on adp 1, so this upgrade is completely useless). If SOE implements Stealth Attacks for Brigands then we need Stealhs without FD-component to use them without problems. If you give use ruse then keep it work. Unlike to the Assassins who can easyly use their corresponding skill simply without going in FD. I wrote a bunch of bug-repots since november last year but most of them are still not changed. If SOE doesnt balance and fix this bad things in near future we see us in ANOTHER WORLD. bow and bye Message Edited by Taraxus on 04-05-2005 02:12 AM

03-27-2005, 11:35 PM	#54
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	updated the list, added a few new items. Brigands, please review and add any items you think require attention to this thread. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

03-29-2005, 10:19 AM	#55
Fairlane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	As of today (3/28/05) the Brigand combat art Forceful Negotiation is not working as intended or implied. It does do the stated damage to the target encounter but it does not increase the Agility of the caster for the duration of the effect. Would be nice to see this implemeted. Thanks and keep up the good work. -Cheeb of Neriak __________________ Cheeb 50 Brigand Ascendance Neriak Server

03-29-2005, 11:26 AM	#56
Gyilok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 696	Fairlane wrote: As of today (3/28/05) the Brigand combat art Forceful Negotiation is not working as intended or implied. It does do the stated damage to the target encounter but it does not increase the Agility of the caster for the duration of the effect. Would be nice to see this implemeted. Thanks and keep up the good work. -Cheeb of Neriak it does, it just does not stack with aegis, or whatever selfbuff you have on __________________ Stizeyo

04-01-2005, 05:38 AM	#57
Dimidri General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 89	Hopefully, the change on test will make it live for Knave and Rough skin, apparently the strength buffs will now stack.

04-04-2005, 10:45 PM	#58
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	Added three new issues.. if anyone has found any more HO completions that don't "fire" from non-damaging arts, please post them. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

04-04-2005, 11:38 PM	#59
Dtrick Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	HOs that don't activate: Any of our AoE skills (30 training one, forceful negotiation, etc.) will not complete ringing blow, but they will complete swindlers luck. I have never had a chance to test it on Bravo's Dance. Ruse will not complete either HOs (haven't tried Bravo's Dance). It acts as it completes both swindlers luck and ringing blow, but it does not do any damage. Scout/Fighter - Luck's Bite will not do any damage to the mob if you use a buff with the hood icon (i.e. knave). If you use an attack with the hood icon (sap) it will do the damage to the mob. Also, Blackjack had the sword icon and its upgrade Sap has a hood icon.

04-05-2005, 02:37 PM	#60
Andai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 87	Dtrick wrote: Also, Blackjack had the sword icon and its upgrade Sap has a hood icon. Thank you so much Dtrick, that would explain the problem i posted about a few posts up. __________________