Is our ranged CAs really worth the annoyance of the ineffective throwing weapons?

[Magele]

I just dinged 40 and am interested in upgrading to a T5 legendary ranged item.  Personally, I have had little use of our ranged CA.  I have Chilling Throw, which at adept 1 does 111-186 cold damage twice...plus snare 43%.  The snare doesn't seem so important as there other non ranged CAs that do the same effect...Checkmate, Hamstring.  

 

Personally I hate blowing through a 3gp stack of daggers in less than 5 min.  The dmg/delay is way lower than that of bows and therefore WAY less effective.   Not to mention the facts that until they are fixed...only place you can even buy throwing weapons is in Qeynos, and that throwing weapons have no imbue recipe. ( Well ok...I mentioned them.)

 

Do we get anymore ranged CAs 50+ that may require more use than the ones previously?  Perhaps they provide more use in a raid enviorment than they do in the group setting?  Only time I found use for a ranged at all is obviously pulling...and when my group went against a named mob immune to slashing...which both my blades are...so in order to damage I need to throw daggers.

 

I'm really leaning towards the bow here....any thoughts rogues?

[Keyh]

CA Attack damage does not change with the tier of the ammo. Just drop around 3-4 silver on a stack of iron. Edit: I don't use it often, I just recently hit 31, it's kind of nice hitting an enemy for 400 damage (With poison proc) with chilling throw as they run after me and then pull a Cheap Shot->Snoop->Shanghai->Unfriendly Reminder->Ringing Blow->Distracting blade they're often Orange/Red health if it's an even con solo. I'm sure this loses it's usefulness whenever 400 damage isn't really anything though. I mainly just use it for pulling.

Message Edited by Keyh on 10-13-2005 07:03 PM

[Arciahand]

I am going to have to test out what Keyh is saying, I have read and experianced in the past a significant increase in damage when you keep with the same tier (T5daggers and T5shieth, T5arrows and T5Bows) rather than using T1 ammo on a T5 or so shieth.  With all the changes though, ya never know.  Would be nice to drop a few silver on a stack of daggers rather than 7.5g for Fulginite.

 

 

[Magele]

I just personally don't see the point in keeping the throwing weapons just for one skill that IMO is just next to useless.  This isn't one of the swashy's highest damage skills....I imagine you'd get a higher dps in a battle using regular melee + melee skills.

 

I believe what  Keyh is saying is that the CA will cause the same cold damage regardless of what tier ammo you use....but in order to cause higher damage from a regular ranged attack...you need the appropriate level ammo.  I would even guess that handcrafted ammo might cause more damage than merchant ammo.

 

I dunno if I'm missing something here or what....it seems like a no brainer to me...bows have better stats...damage procs...more regular damage coupled with a higher delay that consumes a substantial lesser amount of ammo.

 

The only benefit I can think of from using throwing weapons....does the lower delay mean that there is a higher chance to apply poison?  Wouldn't this also be the case for imbued procs (if throwing weapons ever actually get them)  That might be worth it in the long run...basically that would mean rogues can do the same damage as predators with their ranged attacks (not including predator ranged CAs of course) at just a greater cost....if that theory is correct...but I don't think I've ever seen a ranged throwing weapon with as high a damage rating as bows...

 

Or is the CA the ONLY reason rogues should use throwing weapons? 

 

Message Edited by Mageless on 10-14-2005 01:55 AM

[Luk]

take a look at Hail of Steel (lvl 55 Ancient Teaching), it my change your mind on the effectiveness of Swashy ranged CA.

[Dragonfly28]

The ranged skill is actually very usefull for a pull ! (I agree the damage kinda sux) But on several occasions I used my ranged CA to pull an epic. Since it comes with a big speed debuff, i usually manage to run away without any damage and then let the MT grab the aggro. So i think its still usefull and u want the slot filled for the stat bonus anyway :smileyhappy: so wy not spend a couple of silver on this nice pull skill ? Onaupu L50 Swashbuckler/L40 Tailor Heroes Inc Splitpaw

[Magele]

Well my point was because I have two other slow skills that are non ranged....so the slow in this range CA appears to me to be rather redundant. 

And of course I want the slot filled....bows do not reward any less stats than a throwing weapon...my quest is to determine which ultimately is a more effective weapon.

So if the 55lvl CA is better than the t5 one....I may just buy a t5 bow and see what happens after I level....

[Keyh]

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Mageless wrote:

I believe what  Keyh is saying is that the CA will cause the same cold damage regardless of what tier ammo you use....but in order to cause higher damage from a regular ranged attack...you need the appropriate level ammo.  I would even guess that handcrafted ammo might cause more damage than merchant ammo.

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Aye, that's exactly what I'm saying. Really we'd be doing more damage up close than with the thrown weapons, so there's really no point in buying the really good ammo. Just buy some iron stuff and use it for pulling.

[Magele]

That is ususall true but I found my group going against a mob immune to both my slashing weapons...so I used throwing daggers to hurt it.  I'd like the option of causing damage via ranged weapon...just in case...so I'm just weighing bow vs throw weapons in terms of effectiveness.

[Naggyba]

Hail of Steel, level 55. I LOVE this skill. Does a lot of damage that makes up for those times that we cannot get up close and melee.Before that though, the usefulness of ranged on raids is good if you have stuff that procs in your weapon slots.

[Decari]

I'll think about a throwing weapon once I get Hail of Steel, until then I'll stick to my bow. Poison procs well on it and it has great range for pulling.  The one CA doesn't justify the loss of range to me before Hail of Steel.

[overfloat]

I have to admit I'm still confused by the general negative feelings towards throwing weapons and the new CAs.

Do people really use ranged attacks so often that ranged DPS is that critical? (In regular combat, I'm not thinking about raids right now.)

Or are people just loath to give up their sexy bows? (Understandable, hehe.)

 

---- Short version of my post (with quotes):

---

Mageless wrote:

Well my point was because I have two other slow skills that are non ranged....so the slow in this range CA appears to me to be rather redundant. 

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 The snares stack, making it possible to practically immobilise a mob. The snare on the ranged CA makes it easy to maneuvre your pulls back to your chosen fight spot (around adds, etc.) while staying out of range of its swings -- you can't do this and remain unharmed with any other combination of our arts, the range on our other snares is just too short.

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And of course I want the slot filled....bows do not reward any less stats than a throwing weapon...my quest is to determine which ultimately is a more effective weapon.

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The most effective weapon is.... neither, melee instead!

Seriously, the situations where you need to worry about ranged DPS should be very few and far between (outside of certain raids where melee is not feasible). A bow may give better DPS over an extended period but you'll barely ever need to use a ranged weapon that way in everyday hunting. Far more likely that you'll get better use out of a mid-high damage throwing CA on a 20-second recharge that you can weave in and out of your regular melee pattern.

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Keyh wrote:

Aye, that's exactly what I'm saying. Really we'd be doing more damage up close than with the thrown weapons, so there's really no point in buying the really good ammo. Just buy some iron stuff and use it for pulling.

---

Exactly -- a swashbuckler using ranged autoattack is nowhere near matching his damage potential anyway, no matter what ranged weapon he's using. Better to stick to melee and use cheap ammo just for the ranged CAs, as the cold damage on the CAs does not vary based on the ammo or weapon.

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Mageless wrote:

That is ususall true but I found my group going against a mob immune to both my slashing weapons...so I used throwing daggers to hurt it.  I'd like the option of causing damage via ranged weapon...just in case...so I'm just weighing bow vs throw weapons in terms of effectiveness.

---

I've learned to always keep at least one of each type of weapon on hand -- slashing and piercing (PGT and SBD should cover everything once you're 40+). You only need a non-immune weapon in your main (right) hand in order for CAs to land -- as long as you have that, you'll out-DPS any ranged damage you could muster with even the greatest bow in the world.

If you want to have the option of causing ranged damage "just because"... then buy a bow as well just for those occasions. But don't permanently rob yourself of the utility and damage of our ranged CAs for the very few situations when you need/want to use ranged autoattack.

---

Decarian wrote:
I'll think about a throwing weapon once I get Hail of Steel, until then I'll stick to my bow. Poison procs well on it and it has great range for pulling.  The one CA doesn't justify the loss of range to me before Hail of Steel.

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When do you use the range? For pulling? Ok, that's once per fight, maybe 2 or even 3 shots before the mob (unsnared, because you can't snare it with a bow) reaches you. Compare that to getting an extra mid-high damage CA every 20 seconds during regular combat (much like being able to use Uncanny Speed 5 times per minute instead of just twice). Again, if you're really worried about the range for pulling, buy a bow too -- if you're keen, you can switch weapon and ammo as the mob closes. Trust me when I say that the damage and snare from the ranged CA has been many times more useful than some extra range on a pull (which can, more often than not, be easily overcome with very little extra maneuvreing).

 

 

---- Long version of my post (for those with stamina!):

Personally, I only use ranged autoattacks very rarely. Like... almost never. Except when I'm goofing off -- like trying to solo the perma-rooted Epic in Nek Castle, hehe. Outside of raid situations, the only time I can think that autoattack damage would be critical to a swashbuckler is if you're kiting (which I don't do, never could stand it). The damage we can do at range (pre-Hail of Steel) is utterly insignificant compared to our melee potential, no matter what ranged weapon you're using. So the question isn't so much "What's the best weapon for ranged damage", as "Why the heck am I not meleeing?!". In general combat, my ranged autoattack damage is the absolute least of my concerns as a swashbuckler.

So... basically I don't follow why so many swashbucklers place such value on their ranged auto-attack DPS. (Again, I'm thinking non-raid -- if you're of raiding level and capability, then you'll probably want to equip yourself with a supplementary ranged weapon to maximise ranged auto-attack DPS in those situations where melee is a non-starter.)

Now, the case for the new CAs...

They're not the greatest but, yes, they are definitely useful.

As far as damage goes, they're pretty efficient. Frigid Throw is something like 150-200dmg + 150-200 dmg as standard, which actually makes it one of my more powerful non-positional, non-stealth attacks ("non-positional" as in: don't need a stun or mez up to use it while soloing). Nothing to sniff at: it's actually more powerful and efficient than Uncanny Speed plus it has a shorter recast time.

Practical uses? With the newly-combined CA timers, you'll occasionally find yourself with a couple of seconds with no other CAs ready to use, especially when soloing -- you can either go with autoattack alone for a few seconds or back off a couple of feet and launch a 400+dmg CA (unless, of course, you're doing 400 DPS on autoattack alone, in which case CAs aren't worth your while ). The cast time on our ranged arts is now much shorter -- 1 sec compared to 3(?) secs pre-revamp -- meaning that it's useful even in groups as a filler CA. In short: if you're not using it, you're losing out.

The range on thrown weapons isn't that great -- 25m standard, compared to (I think) 35m short bow and 70m long bow. Personally it hasn't presented any major problems so far: certainly it wouldn't be worth my while to keep a bow in my ranged slot (or swap ranged weapons back/forth just for pulling) while soloing, considering the use I get out of the ranged CAs. The snare effect gives me plenty of time to carefully maneuvre the mob back to my chosen fight spot before it starts pounding on me from behind (note that the snare effects of your arts do stack, and you can practically immobilise a mob between all 3 of them... plus you can't pull at range with our other 2 snares). If you're pulling for a group and worried about range, it might be worth your while getting a longbow and stack of cheap arrows just for that purpose.

Throwing weapon stats? Yes, they suck. This is a failing of the Devs to put in any decent recipes/items yet, not a failing of the throwing CA mechanic. I'd still definitely recommend using a thrown weapon for soloing -- I'm fairly sure an extra 400dmg/20sec CA is going to outweigh the benefit of some extra stats in a solo situation, but that's a judgement call.

[Naggyba]

It's mostly giving up all that time you spent getting a really sweet kickass fabled bow and then have to replace it with crafted junk.I had to go from a really sweet Jungle Bow that could use pierce, crush and slashing arrows, to a crappy crafted pouch, satchel and bandolier, on top of the 3 diff ammos.Hail of Steel really makes up a huge part of the loss but, normal ranged sucks and the stat loss is huge, along wiht the proc I had to give up.

[Admundfor]

i have to agree with naggy here .. hail of steel landing 1K+ every2 secs at lvl 55 rocks... tobad it will be usless on raids due to POS throwing weapons .....

 

[Naggyba]

I use it often on raids where mobs use a lot of AOE. Run in, whack mob, AOE about to hit, move out, use hail of steel while waiting for aoe to hit, move in after. You can still keep doing damage while waiting. HoS has a 30m range versus the normal 25 for throwing weapons.

Message Edited by Naggybait on 10-23-2005 03:02 AM

[Luk]

Something that I noticed while soloing, throwing weapons are useable in melee range, so no need to move out to use bow, then back in again, gives us an extra CA when soloing or if we happen to be tanking, time to get that ranged skill maxed.

[Keyh]

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Licit wrote:Something that I noticed while soloing, throwing weapons are useable in melee range, so no need to move out to use bow, then back in again, gives us an extra CA when soloing or if we happen to be tanking, time to get that ranged skill maxed.

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Can someone confirm this? I haven't been able to play the last couple of days but I remember having to back up to use the Chilling Throw.

[overfloat]

I definitely had to back up yesterday to use Frigid Throw, otherwise I got the 'too close' message. I didn't pay attention to whether ranged autoattack worked in melee range because I was too busy switching back to melee autoattack as quickly as possible!

[Ruben]

the range is closer than bow range but its not melee distance.

 

I like the thrown weapons for several reasons. I have one pierce, 1 slash weapon equipped to keep skill up at all time, extras in the bag in case we hit a immune to slash or pierce. I use hammers for the crush effect, have run across a couple mobs that it was the only thing i could use to hit it.

 

Also our ranged weapon can be thrown while moving unlike the bow, many times i have accidently gotten 2 mobs while soloing and i just kited em around till the one died. the damage isnt bad at all with the speed of the thrown and using level specific ammo.

 

My PGT also procs when i use thrown which is a nice ward when the mob gets there. I switched to thrown weapons as soon as they said they was changing and wasnt happy then switched to hammers and honestly I am extremely happy with the results now.

[Admundfor]

you using hail of steel with that pos t6 throwing weapons on lvl 60+ raid mobs naggy ? ( and why the hell are the throwing weapons the only [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] t6 weapon not level 50 ? < lvl 47&gt

 

[Naggyba]

Yes, I use t6 rare made pouch, sheath and bandolier on 60+ raid mobs. I have to move out of the AOE, at least I can use this while I wait and still do an avg of 8k+ damage.

Message Edited by Naggybait on 11-05-2005 03:26 PM

[Duhulk]

I can live with the fact that throwing weapons are more expensive because they are faster and less damage per hit.

 

What I find unacceptable is that fact you can have ONE bow and do all three styles of damage, slashing, piercing, and crushing, while someone with throwing skills is required to get a hold of three rare leathers to get three different ranged weapons made to do that.

 

At the T6 raiding level, with the power of Hail of Steel and the need to frequently do ranged damage on many of the nastier encounters, I am all but required to spend a lot of extra money or time to get three weapons made, while a bow caster just needs the one. Sure, they have to worry about different types of ammo, but that's not really intrinsicly anymore expensive.

 

I'm all for variations, choices, and different styles of combat, but this might be pushing it in the fairness department.

Message Edited by Duhulk on 11-08-2005 01:23 PM

[Naggyba]

Yea, in DOF beta, I tried really hard for them to combine the throwing weapons into one pouch for all 4 ammo. Why they have 4 different weapons for 4 different ammo is beyond me.

[overfloat]

With LU#16 -- which allowed casters to put Secondary items such as censers, idols, etc. in their ranged slots -- I'm a little more miffed than I was before that there are still no decent throwing weapons in-game.

Without hot-swapping a sexy bow (decent stats during melee) for our mediocre-at-best throwing weapon (for ranged CAs)  ...  which is a horrible PITA, especially with the combat "re-equip timer"  ...  we (rogues) are the only class stuck using a borked series of ranged slot items in order to use our skills properly. I think it's great that casters can now use their ranged slots -- it was a little odd to effectively give all other classes a "bonus" equipment slot -- but while we're levelling the playing field, can we level it for everyone?

Is there a reason why no decent ranged weapons or recipes have been implemented yet, or just a case of being very low priority?

[Naggyba]

Scouts = REAL LOW priority, unless it's for nerfs.

Message Edited by Naggybait on 11-10-2005 03:14 PM

[okc]

no dev love for the swashbucklers

[Admundfor]

yeah apparently we didnt [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan enougth to warrent any looks at what was changed

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