Dont we get to decide what we want to do in a group?!?!

[Dantes Infer]

Luckily the game is not limited to your narrow vision.

 

I see no warrant for class diversification if we all have the same role/ just executed differently.

 

I like buffing damage potential/ damaging/ and then back up healing...in that order...

 

Because I started as a Priest, does not mean my role never changes.

 

The Fury is the best for my RP/ fun desires, I only wish there was a pure buffing class, as these heals (while nice) seem to be pigeonholeing us.

 

Yes, I can heal, but my Fury will do that to save you, but not in a full group as main healer..not my cup O Joe.

 

:smileywink:

 

[Ee]

It comes with the territory friend, be sure to warn groups that you would rather not be the primary healer - because, since you can be, they will expect you to be.   Buffing and healing is a given for any priest, and saying that you would rather dd over heal is equally as selfish  as a guardian telling you he doesnt want to taunt the mobs and would rather just do damage.  Now, as you suggested - your role can change.  In a priest heavy group you will surely be able to use a large amout of your mana on DD/DoT spells.

[Brist]

I find I get quite a lot of variety simply by adjusting to the situation

 

If I'm the only healer in a group facing tough challenges I sometimes hang right back, poised for Subterfuge & Confusing Babble, and chuck heals where needed most. I'm a very capable main healer in this mode

 

More often I melee as a lion throwing heals out as needed, using dot and debuff to speed things along. I can be the only healer in a full group and still operate like this

 

If we're too well off for healers I can spam DD and DoT and melee with the potential to cast a heal if things go wrong. Nowhere near a full-on dps character but I do seem to outdamage fighters and other priest classes

 

I'm very effective as a soloer too

 

Fury is a great class but no you don't always get to decide what you want to do because you should be reacting to what's needed rather than "I wanna spam damage now" or whatever. You can of course not join a group unless there's another healer or whatever but that's a bit self-limiting

[Bobfish]

Well, if you can sit in as back up healer, we are the most offensive of the priest classes thanks to our dps buffs, and we're not bad at the old damage. But there are only three main roles, fighter = meat shield, priest = healer, scout/mage = dps. However, when those three roles are filled already, we're **mods 4 teh win!!1!** good as being the backup healer/dps character

[GoVo]

But no matter what your expectations are, if your the only healer in the group, your primary role is to be healer first.  If a group asks you to join them and you plan on only backup healing, I would expect you to let them know up front they if they don't have another healer that they will have to get one so you can backup heal.

 

I just don't understand this aversion to healing.  It's been pretty much said repeatedly up front that all priest classes are primary healers.

[Bobfish]

Three groups in a row today I was backup healer, I have to say I've never really done it before, but I did next to no damage compared to the mages in the groups. I felt like a complete waste of space when i didn't have to heal

[Jhaan-Kre]

ive played main and secondary..it all dependson skills.  Luckly my 2ndary dmg is good now, thanks to a master 1 strike of thunder...i hit for about 280-400 dmg with it.

[TripZ]

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Bobfish wrote:

Three groups in a row today I was backup healer, I have to say I've never really done it before, but I did next to no damage compared to the mages in the groups. I felt like a complete waste of space when i didn't have to heal

---

My adept 1 stinging swarm does 20-25 a tick at lvl 19 while lowering the targets defense.  My DD at app3 does between 50-70 damage.  My app3 nettleshield does 7-9 damage to a mob every time he makes a successful attack.  Plus if things go wrong I can easily backup heal.  Not to mention some pretty decent group buffs brought to the table as well.  I've never felt useless to a group.  In fact most groups chose to wait for me if I need a quick afk even if I'm only the backup healer.  That usually is my role also.  I've only been the MH a few times up to the lvl I'm at now, which is how I like it.  :smileyhappy:

[Twizz]

Since healing is what people will expect from you you should be ready for it at all times.

 

I've grouped with shamans who think the same way and I end up doing all heals (including healing myself). It really [Removed for Content] me off, even though I never mentioned it to the group, I just kept healing.

 

This was very hard as the tank ware a bit low level for the things we were fighting.

 

Too much of things like this can end up in bad class rep (like druids in EQLive where you had to prove yourself worthy of being the main healer in each new group with people you didn't know)

 

 

[Baelzharon]

I have the luxary of being in a guild where we have an abundance of priests, so we're almost always having 2 of us in a group. When I focus on purely being a debuffer/dps while spreading out regen when needed I still have loads of fun. Mobs do die faster and the group can kill more per hour since the heals get spread around. Agro also isn't as much a problem with 2 heals sharing the load. Atleast in a group situation we have a lot to offer besides heals, but I still would not want to always do it because sometimes being the main healer is fun too I hope they fix lvl 20+ heals soon, because as it is now mobs hitting for 500 a whack just isn't fun to heal solo...

[Bobfish]

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TripZip wrote:

My adept 1 stinging swarm does 20-25 a tick at lvl 19 while lowering the targets defense.  My DD at app3 does between 50-70 damage.  My app3 nettleshield does 7-9 damage to a mob every time he makes a successful attack.  Plus if things go wrong I can easily backup heal.  Not to mention some pretty decent group buffs brought to the table as well.  I've never felt useless to a group.  In fact most groups chose to wait for me if I need a quick afk even if I'm only the backup healer.  That usually is my role also.  I've only been the MH a few times up to the lvl I'm at now, which is how I like it.  :smileyhappy:

---

Same spells as me, only I'm a few levels higher than you, I guess that 20 mark makes Mages pull away a lot, but a DD for 70 barely scratches the mobs, nearing 30 per tick on Swarn, plus Cyclone is ok, though I need an adept of it. It's still nowhere near as good as a Mage, especially when they start using AoEs, or their multiple dots.

[Katx]

If you are more concerned with nuking, you should have been a mage, perhaps a conjurer.  Or if you like to buff, an enchanter type.

 

Joining a group and saying "I only want to back up heal" will do nothing but reinforce the mistaken impression many people have that Furies are only good for backup healing.

 

Give it up and be a mage.

 

 

[elorei]

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TripZip wrote:

My adept 1 stinging swarm does 20-25 a tick at lvl 19 while lowering the targets defense.  My DD at app3 does between 50-70 damage.  My app3 nettleshield does 7-9 damage to a mob every time he makes a successful attack.  Plus if things go wrong I can easily backup heal.  Not to mention some pretty decent group buffs brought to the table as well.  I've never felt useless to a group.  In fact most groups chose to wait for me if I need a quick afk even if I'm only the backup healer.  That usually is my role also.  I've only been the MH a few times up to the lvl I'm at now, which is how I like it.  :smileyhappy:

---

if you think people are going to take your for damage, you are sorely mistaken.  the following numbers are based on fighting things orange and yellow, not lvl 5s in newbie areas.

 

at my lvl, my largest single target hit was for 355.  (im a 33 fury).

a brigand that plays with us hits the same mob using a 30 second recast skill for up to 1780 damage.

 

my biggest AE was 800ish damage total, on 6 mobs.

a warlock or wiz can do this 6 times before i can recast starburst, for more damage each hit.

 

mobs hit for 100-700 damage, bristlepelt returns 18.  yeah, all damage is good damage, but damage shields are far from amazing anymore.

 

furies do not do big damage, they are healers.  they buff well, and they heal well.

 

 

you say furies get pigeonholed as healers...well...yeah, because THEY ARE HEALERS.  they have no other main role in this game, if you are playing one to do damage, i recommend you stop now and play a damage class.

[Agreilo]

Exactly, Elorei! What I've been trying to say .

 

Ofc. anyone is free to play their class however they want e.g. nuker, but then your group will be missing dps.

Message Edited by Agreiloth on 12-07-2004 02:54 PM

[Joh]

The following is written with no sarcasm whatsoever. These are sincere questions.

 

Can someone here explain the fascination with 'roles' in groups?

 

I'm playing a L21 Fury. From what I've seen, it works best to be flexible. I'll keep my DD and debuffing to a minimum initially, focusing on keeping my group alive. If it seems like I've got more power left after battles than my partners, and we've been relatively safe... then I'll pass out the debuffs, DD, etc. But the primary goal is to keep everyone alive.

 

That's everyone's job though. The tank does this by holding aggro, and the blasters do this by using AoE judiciously and rooting, and the Scouts... well ... scout.

 

Everyone helps to keep us all alive. Does that really require a 'role'?

 

Message Edited by Johsc on 12-07-2004 06:37 AM

[Vereschag]

While the idea of "roles" restricting you may feel offensive, the game is built around them.  You can try to break free of what is expected of you, but for the most part, you are not going to be very effective if you step outside the core function of your archtype.  This becomes more and more true as you increase in level and specialization becomes more and more pronounced.  These sorts of things are just part of the basics of any class/level based system.

[Joh]

I'm not offended by the roles... I question their utility.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree, Vereschagen.

 

I think at higher levels in EQ2, the more flexible groups will out-perform those fixated on roles established in an entirely different game (EQ1)

 

Here's hoping we'll both make it to >L40 to see whose theory is correct.

[maschinentra]

All this sounds like the different classes and subclasses are just cosmetical periphrases for one word: healer. At other classes (e.g. mages) the difference is _ways_ larger. Hell you are all right. You are nearly forced to play your archetype, if you want to advance to advanced dungeons. But it is somewhat frustrating not to have any _real_ difference to shamans or clerics except the kind of spells and the ability to shapeshift into a lionform. Hell I'm a _fury_ (read: wild, powerfull druid) and what am I doing in Fallen Gate? Standing in the background and healing as fast as the spells are "reloading". Very unsatisfying. I _want_ to help the group, I _want_ to support the group, but I _also_ want to play my role I choosed by going the way of the fury. And I have to act like every cleric or every shaman or every druid? Bah At least for me I will only act as the brave healer when I'm with a "random group". As soon as a second healerclass is in the party I will act more like a fury: attacking (melee and magic) and, of course, healing.

[Kero]

---

Johsc wrote:

I'm not offended by the roles... I question their utility.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree, Vereschagen.

 

I think at higher levels in EQ2, the more flexible groups will out-perform those fixated on roles established in an entirely different game (EQ1)

 

Here's hoping we'll both make it to >L40 to see whose theory is correct.

---

These roles aren't defined by EQlive, they were defined by the devs.  The devs have said over and over and over again what the roles are and who is supposed to provide them. 

 

Primary role of *all* Fighters is Tanking. 

Primary role of *all* scouts is Melee DPS

Primary role of *all* mages is Ranged/Spell DPS

Primary role of *all* priests is Healing.

 

Where we differ is *secondary* roles, and how we do our job.

[hammong]

Frankly, no, you don't get to decide what you're going to do in -some- groups.   Other groups, you have a little bit more lattitude.   It really is situationally dependant.

 

If you're the only healer class in the group, be prepared to NOT Nuke, NOT DoT, and proceed with the damage shield and healing responsibilities.    You're needed as a healer, if you do not want to fill that role, then you should exit the group and free your spot for another Fury, Cleric, Mystic, or Warden to provide that role.  

 

If you're serving as a backup healer, then by all means whip out the lion form, buff up, and begin nuking and dotting with some reservation of mana for satisfying your backup healer role.

 

YOU picked a priest class.   If you want to by the big nuker or dotter, you might consider starting a Wizard or Warlock.    If you want to fight and still want some healing/warding/nuking, then start a Paladin/Shadowknight.

 

[elorei]

hammong, i think lion form is important in either case, an extra 100+ power for the healer is a great thing to have, even if that means yu cant verve one other member.

[maschinentra]

---

hammong wrote:

YOU picked a priest class. If you want to by the big nuker or dotter, you might consider starting a Wizard or Warlock. If you want to fight and still want some healing/warding/nuking, then start a Paladin/Shadowknight.

---

Read my post again and at least try to understand it. Did I wrote I want to be the big-r0x0r-nuker? This class is called "fury" (again: read my post (or at least: look in a dictionary) and you will see I didn't choosed this because of spells, but because of the rpg-role.. (yeah call me a naive-n00b)) not "mr. acting in background healing all the time"-healer. Hell, I was just complaining and whining a bit about this (for priests) cosmetical crap called "classes" and "subclasses". Ah I write to much.. just read my first post again. Thank you.

Message Edited by maschinentraum on 12-07-2004 08:43 PM

[Joh]

Kero, the roles I was writing about were in context of Vershagen's description. I'm arguing against Vershagen's proposition that at high levels player's roles will be rigidly defined and not be open to interpretation.

 

Yes, each primary class has it's roles within a group... like fighters being tanks in your example, Kero. What I'm trying to argue against is the idea that each class is good for only one thing, and that there's one ultimate healer, ultimate tanker, etc. I play a Fury, and I can heal, buff/debuff, or even fill in as a merely passable tank if needed.

 

I think this thread was intended to point out that each class can do much more than what people traditionally expect.

 

It's also a matter of opinion for anyone to suggest that high levels will be a specific way... when I imagine most people here are still in the 20's and 30's levels.

 

Any discussion on end-game mechanics is purest speculation, even coming from former Beta-testers. There's no guarantee it'll work the same way.

 

And for clarification: I'm talking about the player-defined roles such as Primary Healer, Backup Tanker, etc.

 

 

 

Message Edited by Johsc on 12-07-2004 12:15 PM

[LadyMist]

Im a confused kitty. I have been meleeing since beta days. I'll still heal my team mates as first priority but that isnt hindering the fun I am having wacking at the baddies with my sword. Not much damage is done given my profession so I'll throw out a couple of dots.

 

To ease on my healing I will also toss some hot's. You can usually tell what kind of fighting experience you will be doing after only about 5 encounters. But you do have to face the fact that your priority is healing. If this bothers you the priest class may not be right for you

[Grimme]

---

Johsc wrote:

 

That's everyone's job though. The tank does this by holding aggro, and the blasters do this by using AoE judiciously and rooting, and the Scouts... well ... scout.

 

Everyone helps to keep us all alive. Does that really require a 'role'?

---

What you described in your post as 'jobs' are roles.

 

You can look at this subject 15 different ways, the end result is the same. Any character based on a priest class is going to be healing based. There is nothing that forces you to ever cast a healing spell. You can choose to be a priest who thinks (s)he is a mage. If you do so, you are not going to be very effective, because priests are most effective at healing.

 

Or you can just be a mage.

 

This game does not provide for CLAMs (cleric magic-users), as it is not NWN, nor UO. The fury is not a CLAM. The fury is a priest (healer) with a few decent (but not even good, relative to any mage) DD spells. Forget about scouts and mages DPS, you aren't going to be even close. The fury has some great buffs and debuffs however, to compensate perhaps for a less immediate (but more efficient in the end it seems) set of healing spells.

 

You DO get to decide what you do in a group. Primarily by choosing your archetype. Secondarily by choosing your class and subclass.

[Joh]

/roles eyes. Yes, yes. Horrible pun.I am not supporting the original posters claim that he never wants to heal. I'm not arguing that Furies shouldn't be perceived as healers. We did start as Priests, same as every other Warden, Cleric, et al.I guess I'm just not stating my point correctly, if I have one. If I figure out what it is, maybe I create another topic and attempt to state it more succinctly./opinion onI'm arguing that Furies aren't *just* healers. We're multipurpose. There are others that excel at each 'job'. But that's to be expected in a "generalized vs. specialist" approach.I'm also arguing that it's counter-productive for most to claim what the high level game is going to be like, or what niche we (Furies) are going to fill later. Until we've been there, it's all idle speculation. If you're already in that level range... I'm impressed and quietly jealous, but you few may not be an indication of how the community will work when such levels are common.I also think people are letting EQLive color their judgements overmuch, fixating on how healing worked in an entirely different game./opinion offAnd I'll restate what I told Vereschagen. I'll politely disagree with those who state Furies have only one niche to fill, look forward to seeing him and the rest of you at the high levels and finding out whose prediction was more accurate.

Message Edited by Johsc on 12-07-2004 05:40 PM

[GoVo]

---

Johsc wrote:

/opinion on
I'm arguing that Furies aren't *just* healers. We're multipurpose.

Message Edited by Johsc on 12-07-2004 05:40 PM

---

This statement can be made for every Priest Subclass.

 

The bottom line is every Priest subclass is played differently.  Each has their own multipurposfulness (is that even a word?),  but each one's primary job is healing.  That's simply how the developers designed the system.  This is unlike EQLive where they had one primary healer then hybrids off that role.  If they (the development team) find that one class has more utility or has a greater ability to fill the primary healing role in a party, expect an adjustment.  There simply are not any 'specialists' anymore.

Message Edited by GoVolz on 12-08-2004 09:06 AM