What utility do wardens bring to raids that can't be done better by other priest classes?

Kaku99 · 01-24-2007, 09:57 PM

According to the Leaf Covered Tomb, warden raid utility is rated good. I don't see this. The other priest classes can all do what we do and bring additional utility to raids. Furies buff intelligence for example. The only group that MIGHT want a warden is the MT group and this is only because of stacking issues that occur when multiple clerics and shaman are in the same group. A fury can provide the same kind of value. The other priest classes all have unique buffs that aid their groups or they buff a given stat for more than a warden is capable of doing.

The Leaf Covered Tomb says that wardens lack of raid utility was fixed by the EoF AAs. If these AAs actually worked as they had originally been intended, I would agree but they don't.

When is SOE going to provide us with some raid utitlity?

Message Edited by Kaku99 on 02-01-2007 08:41 AM

lmhotep · 01-24-2007, 10:39 PM

lol

standupwookie · 01-24-2007, 11:07 PM

For all of you cartoon buffs out there, re-read this post if it was Brainy Smurf reciting it to you!

Oakum · 01-24-2007, 11:50 PM

The leaf covered tome is one persons opinon. NOT all or even most wardens opinion of what is wrong/right with the class.

Take that in to account when you read it although the dev's might use it to justify not fixing our lack or utility, buffs, debuffs and getting out dps'ed by clerics and shaman and being way below the DPS a fury does when we are able to try to DPS. While I can see the Fury doing a LITTLE more DPS then us because we are a little more power efficient then they are, it should not be the margin it is.

DPS is a major subset of a Druids utility because we trade down to leather armor to get it.

As far as the defensive, offensive druid line Fury's and others spout? That really only apply's to the Fury and Warden SELF BUFF. That is the only reason I see Wardens being chose to have the option to do melee damage instead of Fury's. Its just too bad they shafted us on available equipment (where is our two handed swords) and how much damage we can do (have I said Fury's can outdamage us by a wide margin according to what I have seen and what others have posted) where as the fury's AA's can boost their spell damage nicely.

When it comes to group/friend/raid buffs, Fury's are pretty much equivelant to us on the defensive side but have a couple more offensive buffs then us since we only have the instinct line which is for one melee type only and they can buff a whole caster group plus one or two single target DPS buffs.

Thats why their are so many Fury's in the game compared to Wardens. (I mean being actively played, not shelved to make fury's, defilers, and inquisitors)

netman · 01-25-2007, 01:12 AM

Imho the leaf covered tome isn't updated.

Today it's very boring to be a raiding warden.

Our position in the MT group isn't needed (our MT group is today : guardian, templar, defiler, dirge, assassin, and conjuror).

Fury is most useful in DPS group

So, what is our futur in the game when you consider that the high level (not even the high end) is mainly raiding ?

Today, give me a reason to enter in the TOP6 useful raiding healer ?

Larsbohnstedt · 01-25-2007, 02:02 AM

When we're clearing trash (and people's healthbars aren't moving), I can sometimes feel a bit useless.

However, when we're fighting a challenging named mob, I top the parse more often than not, with an average of 450 - 520 hps. Try being in the MT group against Treyloth D'kulvith.. you may not be adding a lot of utility but you're adding a -ton- of healing before you start to run dry. To be honest, it continually seems to me that most other healers don't even come close to healing for the same amount.

We're doing Malkonis more or less on a routine basis now and again, it's only a matter of whether I or our Fury (single healer in caster group) time our group heals the best. Whoever 'wins' tops the parse.

scalzo · 01-25-2007, 05:23 AM

Warden out heals a Fury any day of the week. A MT group would be crazy not to want a warden in it due to the proc heal also. And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes. So why would you not want a Warden?

Barand · 01-25-2007, 02:45 PM

Sorry but warden do not outheal fury anytime, for example when we do MMIS, the shaman warden nearly cover all incoming damage to the tank even on named. Last time my heal parse was under a pally lol. Whereas doing Emerald hall or freethinker i parse second of the zone behind the defiler and first in a lot of fight. The issue has not changed since KoS. At the start of a tier when things are difficult, warden are very needed because of the amount we can heal. But when fight start to become easy we fall behind and have nothing else than DPS to bring to the raid.

Maledan · 01-25-2007, 04:03 PM

scalzo wrote:
And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes.

It's all very situational. When a fight is difficult enough that the tank is below 100% most of the time, the warden is usually at (or at least near) the top of the parse. In easier fights, where the wards and reactives are sufficient to keep the tank up, and little direct healing is needed, the parse rather looks like Shaman > Cleric > Druid. When damage comes in large spikes, wardens and clerics are at a disadvantage, while shamans and furies shine.

scalzo wrote: So why would you not want a Warden?

The core healing spells of the six priest classes seem to be balanced quite well. Each class has it strengths and weaknesses, none is simply "better" than the others when it comes to healing. Thus, when comparing raid usefulness, it's mostly about other stuff - buffs, debuffs, DPS, durability. The main reason why someone would not want a warden is that other classes bring more to the table in those regards. For a caster group it's much better to have fury instead of a warden, because the fury buffs INT, and can do significantly more DPS if healing is not needed. Wardens don't bring _that_ much to the MT group, either, so many raids now prefer a crusader or assassin instead of a third healer.

Larsbohnstedt · 01-25-2007, 08:35 PM

I agree with the notion that we all seem to be balanced pretty well. However, IMO comparing raid usefulness is not 'mostly about other stuff'.

It is either about 1) the big picture in which common sense seems to dictate access to all healer classes, thereby allowing for healer rotation between and during raids or 2) a single specific raid in which a healer class may be deemed unnecessary.

Ideally, I think challenging raids should demand that one from each of the three archtypes be present in MT group. Whether the best druid for this is a Warden or a Fury has changed more than once already and should, IMO, continue to change.

peepshow · 01-25-2007, 09:25 PM

Maledan wrote:
scalzo wrote:
And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes.
It's all very situational. When a fight is difficult enough that the tank is below 100% most of the time, the warden is usually at (or at least near) the top of the parse. In easier fights, where the wards and reactives are sufficient to keep the tank up, and little direct healing is needed, the parse rather looks like Shaman > Cleric > Druid. When damage comes in large spikes, wardens and clerics are at a disadvantage, while shamans and furies shine.
scalzo wrote: So why would you not want a Warden?
The core healing spells of the six priest classes seem to be balanced quite well. Each class has it strengths and weaknesses, none is simply "better" than the others when it comes to healing. Thus, when comparing raid usefulness, it's mostly about other stuff - buffs, debuffs, DPS, durability. The main reason why someone would not want a warden is that other classes bring more to the table in those regards. For a caster group it's much better to have fury instead of a warden, because the fury buffs INT, and can do significantly more DPS if healing is not needed. Wardens don't bring _that_ much to the MT group, either, so many raids now prefer a crusader or assassin instead of a third healer.

You cant say that someone can out heal anyone else and just count it to be like that always..MT group healers always have the advantage of group heals and group specials, so it will, mostly, be one of thoose 3 eho 'win' the heal fight..To put a Fury in caster group is deffenetly not the best choice, sure they give INT, but casters SHOULD'NT need that in T7, if they do, they need to farm some of the easyer zones for better gear..Fury (or Inq) in Melee dps groups is way better..If you have 7 Healers in raid they should beDefiler, Templar, Warden (MT group - I know some dont put warden in there, but most do)Mystic Templar Offtank groupWarden/Fury caster group (warden preferred, but both can do)Fury/inq Melee group (inq preferred, but both can do)

netman · 01-25-2007, 10:58 PM

peepshow a écrit:

To put a Fury in caster group is deffenetly not the best choice, sure they give INT, but casters SHOULD'NT need that in T7, if they do, they need to farm some of the easyer zones for better gear..
Fury (or Inq) in Melee dps groups is way better..

Remind me the max stat cap ?

Do you know people INT capped in Raid ?

peepshow a écrit:

If you have 7 Healers in raid they should be

Defiler, Templar, Warden (MT group - I know some dont put warden in there, but most do)
Mystic Templar Offtank group
Warden/Fury caster group (warden preferred, but both can do)
Fury/inq Melee group (inq preferred, but both can do)

Maybe some Raid Leaders keep their warden for pity in MT group, but it's not optimal and this slot seems to be wasted...

(sorry for my english SMILEY )

Message modifié par netmania le 01-25-2007 10:01 AM

KannaWhoopass · 01-26-2007, 02:25 AM

Wardens buff healers

Wardens are wisdom buffers

So in a main tank group with a shamen and a cleric

with us there their wisdom is at least 60 higher group buff

add the ability to buff them both with the aspect of th hawk

+ 600 power + 90 wisdom ..or something like that ... adding almost 900 power to the 2 healers in the mt group

then add the proc heal ..fast heals and with heirophant the ability to conserve power like no other ....

Wardens are [Removed for Content] in MT ...

Fingolfin2 · 01-26-2007, 03:21 AM

The only things a warden is better at than anyone is buffing attack skill on a single person and wisdom. The only spot a warden can try to justify in a raid is the MT group for the attack buff, pwr buffs, and spores and resists to a lesser extent . None of these are needed but they do help more than a fury would.

A fury is much better suited to any sort of dps group, caster or melee. Agitate, Vim, Fae fires and personal dps. A few nights ago our other warden was on and we were short a fury so I popped on to my guildmates fury. I was doing 1200dps on trash and had no problem staying high on the healparse list spot healing on harder stuff all while boosting my group's dps. I had never played a fury before and she didnt even have energy aa line finished. :/

Message Edited by Fingolfin2 on 01-25-2007 02:21 PM

panther55 · 01-26-2007, 12:26 PM

I usually top the heal parse when we are fighting the mobs that count. In deathtoll when we fight the amorpheus drake(who i swear is harder than tarinax now. That is so wrong). I will be up 60k on heals until we take down the first of the two mobs it splits into. This is with our MT group being Guard, Def, Temp, Fury, Coercer, [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I am switched into OT group just for this fight and we usually have Mys, Templar, War, Conj, Dirge, Guar. We hold the Virulent while everyone else kills the Healthy.

Drtydog · 01-26-2007, 09:50 PM

This is a funny thread arguing over who parses the most..Raiding 5-6 days a week t6 and t7 i can tell you that a druid is the most diverse healer. Over the course of the raid I'll end up in every grp at least for one fight usually.

When you have 3 druids in a raid, and with the numbers in the game this is not urealistic, they continue to over write each others Chloro regen...which leaves you, as the warden, with the two smaller directs with small proc amts...If the mob is not aoeing, causing your grp to get hit then there is no way you can sit there and tell me you, as a warden, are going to out parse a mytic, templar, or defiler on every single raid when the parser sits there and counts the dmg the wards are taking.

That aside, measuring the parse to determine how good a healer is doing is really a [I cannot control my vocabulary] way to measure a healer's ability or worth anyway.

Maybe I suck, I dont' know, but typically on a raid with 6-7 healers i'll never out parse the shamans...the rest are situational depending on way to many variables to make an honest comparison...so that leaves poistions 3-5 on the parse and i've been in every position. but hey i'm prolly just a noob

Xendo · 01-31-2007, 10:16 PM

buoymarker28 wrote:

This is a funny thread arguing over who parses the most..Raiding 5-6 days a week t6 and t7 i can tell you that a druid is the most diverse healer. Over the course of the raid I'll end up in every grp at least for one fight usually.

I agree. We are very diverse and our most power efficient heals don't require being struck to activate.

When you have 3 druids in a raid, and with the numbers in the game this is not urealistic, they continue to over write each others Chloro regen...which leaves you, as the warden, with the two smaller directs with small proc amts...If the mob is not aoeing, causing your grp to get hit then there is no way you can sit there and tell me you, as a warden, are going to out parse a mytic, templar, or defiler on every single raid when the parser sits there and counts the dmg the wards are taking.

If you guys are overwriting each others chloro thats just lack of organization/communication on the raid. Clerics and shammies shouldn't reactive / ward the MT when outside of the MT group unless that healer goes down. Same goes for Regen let the MT druid do it or at least assign a druid that responisibility.

That aside, measuring the parse to determine how good a healer is doing is really a [I cannot control my vocabulary] way to measure a healer's ability or worth anyway.

Parse results are so situational its not really worth losing any sleep over it. Most cases you'll find the MT Shaman and MT Cleric up top because of their wards/ reactives. Depending on the situation any other damage (AoE, spike damage, lost aggro damage) will fall on the hands of the other healers. Druids excel in this regard our spells are the fastest casting. A fury who knows what he's doing can soak this up faster than a warden since their DH are direct. Wardens niche is the consistancy of our heals our heals linger around and heal after the next hit squeezeing in some when the others can't. Alot of times Heals are wasted you can see that in a parse from non MT clerics/shamans usally by the time they casted a DH in response to a damage spike 3 druids would have already landed theirs. The result extra clerics and shaman often are very low on parses (SoE at least gave them a bone and upped their DPS and gave them good debuffs)

Only in times of alot of spike damage or AoE damage will you see druids high on parses the fewer the druids the potentially higher they can go as well (to a point a druid can only heal so many ppl after all)

Maybe I suck, I dont' know, but typically on a raid with 6-7 healers i'll never out parse the shamans...the rest are situational depending on way to many variables to make an honest comparison...so that leaves poistions 3-5 on the parse and i've been in every position. but hey i'm prolly just a noob

It's highly situational. I've had fights where i'm the lowest amongst all druids (but i'll still stay ahead of extra cleric/shamans). I've had fights where i nearly doubled the 2nd place healer(MT shammy).

Personally with what a Warden can bring we are nicely suited for the MT group. Spores, Tree are some low power cost healing options with a MT is recieveing damage that blows thru wards/reactives. that can only be utilized when in the MT group. Tanks tend to burn alot of power in their efforts at aggro management Spirit of the bat (AA enhanced especially, a warden exclusive) is well worth putting on the MT. Mob drained his power on pull you can always toss hierophantic advent and stun heal transfer power to him (approx. 900 power over 36 secs @M1). Since you would be in the MT group you would be most likely the one instructed to use regen. Besides as I stated before a fury can land a more direct fast cast spot heal anyways they can be used for that in any position.

Our Typical MT group Guardian, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Coercer (also note the physical mit effect from Protection of the Oak series doesn't stack with clerics drop it and use that extra concentration spot to have 3 aspects of the Hawk up (one for each healer)

However there is that downside, If you already have a Warden and Fury on the raid and had a choice to add another druid. Most often it'll be a fury because of the faster direct heal and DPS which is what additional healers are most often doing. The benefit they provide casters are nice as well. A Typical Caster DPS group is often (random 3 mages any combo of Warlocks,Wizards,Conjurors or Necromancers), Illusionist, Trouadour, Fury

Typically though we try to have 1 druid for each group on a raid Ideally 1 Warden 3 Furies, 2 and 2 is nice for encounters where 2 tanks are needed (Amorphous Drake for example) but often not a real necessity. Especially if you have a 2nd shaman and a 2nd cleric to go with the 2nd tank. (for those counting thats 8 healers which often is more than what we typically would need. But IMO that set up can do anything out there with ease.

Message Edited by Xendo on 01-31-2007 10:52 AM

Oakum · 02-01-2007, 04:53 AM

scalzo wrote:
Warden out heals a Fury any day of the week. A MT group would be crazy not to want a warden in it due to the proc heal also. And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes. So why would you not want a Warden?

LoL, actually I would say that we CAN outheal other healers because we are not distracted too much by debuffing if the tank/group is taking more damage then the ward then the reactive heals AND we dont waste half our heals because the fury,cleric, shaman heals the mt/group with their heals without a regen component. In other words, if they are just not using any heals besides their wards/reactives.

Message Edited by Oakum on 01-31-2007 06:51 PM

slayerwarrior · 02-05-2007, 02:12 PM

Raiding warden= 90% to 95% we heal and are best with long fights or aoes damage which is 10% to 20% of the time lol. If a shamen and a cleric is doing a good job at healing um idk u get very bored mybe try and ask the shamen , cleric to slack a little! When last time any raid leader said we need a warden, were is are warden lol. it's more like were is the shamen, cleric lol. Furys, shamens, clerics are more common then iron clusters! Wonder why????

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 02-05-2007 05:29 AM

Fromingo · 02-06-2007, 12:28 AM

The only thing I really want to see is my Predatory Instinct line to either A) Work on my whole group or B) Work on 1 target and caster simultaneously. Raid Leader/MT's want it for the MT but then I'm gimped when it's off me.

CodeKill · 02-06-2007, 01:58 AM

Fun, but most raids that I've been in when we actually have a warden, I out parse for heals easily. As for buffs, we both have something to bring to the table, as for why wardens are usually required for MT grps along with a templar, and a shammy and/or a Fury, is purely to keep the tank up and alive and kicking, and that the buffs cast by both druid type stackwell and Wardens have a better throwing save heal, where a Fury would have to spam for more health. The warden tree is also used alot, where fury's get the burning ring of fire. Fury's are an offensice healer, and out dps Wardens, Wardens are defensive players and can better protect the MT when the mobs are harder.

Sorano · 02-06-2007, 04:35 AM

If you are outparsing all other healers on a raid, I suggest you look into getting a new shaman. The majority of mobs in EOF raidzones do not break through wards, and when they do it will be streaky spike damage that the furys in the raid are more than capable of dealing with. Yes there are a few mobs where warden healing is required, but they are few and far between. Wardens have to fall back on their secondary role, which is dps for 95% of the raid content available, or risk being bored out of their skulls.

slayerwarrior · 02-06-2007, 09:45 AM

Sorano wrote:
If you are outparsing all other healers on a raid, I suggest you look into getting a new shaman. The majority of mobs in EOF raidzones do not break through wards, and when they do it will be streaky spike damage that the furys in the raid are more than capable of dealing with. Yes there are a few mobs where warden healing is required, but they are few and far between. Wardens have to fall back on their secondary role, which is dps for 95% of the raid content available, or risk being bored out of their skulls.

AMEN!

01-24-2007, 10:39 PM	#2
lmhotep Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rotterdam Posts: 152	lol __________________ Alt: Kodran 70 Berserker

01-24-2007, 11:50 PM	#4
Oakum Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,441	The leaf covered tome is one persons opinon. NOT all or even most wardens opinion of what is wrong/right with the class. Take that in to account when you read it although the dev's might use it to justify not fixing our lack or utility, buffs, debuffs and getting out dps'ed by clerics and shaman and being way below the DPS a fury does when we are able to try to DPS. While I can see the Fury doing a LITTLE more DPS then us because we are a little more power efficient then they are, it should not be the margin it is. DPS is a major subset of a Druids utility because we trade down to leather armor to get it. As far as the defensive, offensive druid line Fury's and others spout? That really only apply's to the Fury and Warden SELF BUFF. That is the only reason I see Wardens being chose to have the option to do melee damage instead of Fury's. Its just too bad they shafted us on available equipment (where is our two handed swords) and how much damage we can do (have I said Fury's can outdamage us by a wide margin according to what I have seen and what others have posted) where as the fury's AA's can boost their spell damage nicely. When it comes to group/friend/raid buffs, Fury's are pretty much equivelant to us on the defensive side but have a couple more offensive buffs then us since we only have the instinct line which is for one melee type only and they can buff a whole caster group plus one or two single target DPS buffs. Thats why their are so many Fury's in the game compared to Wardens. (I mean being actively played, not shelved to make fury's, defilers, and inquisitors) __________________

01-25-2007, 02:02 AM	#6
Larsbohnstedt Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 62	When we're clearing trash (and people's healthbars aren't moving), I can sometimes feel a bit useless. However, when we're fighting a challenging named mob, I top the parse more often than not, with an average of 450 - 520 hps. Try being in the MT group against Treyloth D'kulvith.. you may not be adding a lot of utility but you're adding a -ton- of healing before you start to run dry. To be honest, it continually seems to me that most other healers don't even come close to healing for the same amount. We're doing Malkonis more or less on a routine basis now and again, it's only a matter of whether I or our Fury (single healer in caster group) time our group heals the best. Whoever 'wins' tops the parse. __________________ Gilthanthalasa, 92 Warden Vivid - Crushbone Rosenkrands, 92 Ranger Vivid - Crushbone

01-25-2007, 04:03 PM	#9
Maledan Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 59	scalzo wrote: And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes. It's all very situational. When a fight is difficult enough that the tank is below 100% most of the time, the warden is usually at (or at least near) the top of the parse. In easier fights, where the wards and reactives are sufficient to keep the tank up, and little direct healing is needed, the parse rather looks like Shaman > Cleric > Druid. When damage comes in large spikes, wardens and clerics are at a disadvantage, while shamans and furies shine. scalzo wrote: So why would you not want a Warden? The core healing spells of the six priest classes seem to be balanced quite well. Each class has it strengths and weaknesses, none is simply "better" than the others when it comes to healing. Thus, when comparing raid usefulness, it's mostly about other stuff - buffs, debuffs, DPS, durability. The main reason why someone would not want a warden is that other classes bring more to the table in those regards. For a caster group it's much better to have fury instead of a warden, because the fury buffs INT, and can do significantly more DPS if healing is not needed. Wardens don't bring _that_ much to the MT group, either, so many raids now prefer a crusader or assassin instead of a third healer.

01-25-2007, 08:35 PM	#10
Larsbohnstedt Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 62	I agree with the notion that we all seem to be balanced pretty well. However, IMO comparing raid usefulness is not 'mostly about other stuff'. It is either about 1) the big picture in which common sense seems to dictate access to all healer classes, thereby allowing for healer rotation between and during raids or 2) a single specific raid in which a healer class may be deemed unnecessary. Ideally, I think challenging raids should demand that one from each of the three archtypes be present in MT group. Whether the best druid for this is a Warden or a Fury has changed more than once already and should, IMO, continue to change. __________________ Gilthanthalasa, 92 Warden Vivid - Crushbone Rosenkrands, 92 Ranger Vivid - Crushbone

01-24-2007, 09:57 PM	#1
Kaku99 Lord Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 94	According to the Leaf Covered Tomb, warden raid utility is rated good. I don't see this. The other priest classes can all do what we do and bring additional utility to raids. Furies buff intelligence for example. The only group that MIGHT want a warden is the MT group and this is only because of stacking issues that occur when multiple clerics and shaman are in the same group. A fury can provide the same kind of value. The other priest classes all have unique buffs that aid their groups or they buff a given stat for more than a warden is capable of doing. The Leaf Covered Tomb says that wardens lack of raid utility was fixed by the EoF AAs. If these AAs actually worked as they had originally been intended, I would agree but they don't. When is SOE going to provide us with some raid utitlity? Message Edited by Kaku99 on 02-01-2007 08:41 AM

01-24-2007, 11:07 PM	#3
standupwookie Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 220	For all of you cartoon buffs out there, re-read this post if it was Brainy Smurf reciting it to you!

01-25-2007, 01:12 AM	#5
netman General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bordeaux - France Posts: 300	Imho the leaf covered tome isn't updated. Today it's very boring to be a raiding warden. Our position in the MT group isn't needed (our MT group is today : guardian, templar, defiler, dirge, assassin, and conjuror). Fury is most useful in DPS group So, what is our futur in the game when you consider that the high level (not even the high end) is mainly raiding ? Today, give me a reason to enter in the TOP6 useful raiding healer ?

01-25-2007, 05:23 AM	#7
scalzo Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 196	Warden out heals a Fury any day of the week. A MT group would be crazy not to want a warden in it due to the proc heal also. And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes. So why would you not want a Warden?

01-25-2007, 02:45 PM	#8
Barand General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 358	Sorry but warden do not outheal fury anytime, for example when we do MMIS, the shaman warden nearly cover all incoming damage to the tank even on named. Last time my heal parse was under a pally lol. Whereas doing Emerald hall or freethinker i parse second of the zone behind the defiler and first in a lot of fight. The issue has not changed since KoS. At the start of a tier when things are difficult, warden are very needed because of the amount we can heal. But when fight start to become easy we fall behind and have nothing else than DPS to bring to the raid.

01-25-2007, 09:25 PM	#11
peepshow Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 225	Maledan wrote: scalzo wrote: And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes. It's all very situational. When a fight is difficult enough that the tank is below 100% most of the time, the warden is usually at (or at least near) the top of the parse. In easier fights, where the wards and reactives are sufficient to keep the tank up, and little direct healing is needed, the parse rather looks like Shaman > Cleric > Druid. When damage comes in large spikes, wardens and clerics are at a disadvantage, while shamans and furies shine. scalzo wrote: So why would you not want a Warden? The core healing spells of the six priest classes seem to be balanced quite well. Each class has it strengths and weaknesses, none is simply "better" than the others when it comes to healing. Thus, when comparing raid usefulness, it's mostly about other stuff - buffs, debuffs, DPS, durability. The main reason why someone would not want a warden is that other classes bring more to the table in those regards. For a caster group it's much better to have fury instead of a warden, because the fury buffs INT, and can do significantly more DPS if healing is not needed. Wardens don't bring _that_ much to the MT group, either, so many raids now prefer a crusader or assassin instead of a third healer. You cant say that someone can out heal anyone else and just count it to be like that always..MT group healers always have the advantage of group heals and group specials, so it will, mostly, be one of thoose 3 eho 'win' the heal fight..To put a Fury in caster group is deffenetly not the best choice, sure they give INT, but casters SHOULD'NT need that in T7, if they do, they need to farm some of the easyer zones for better gear..Fury (or Inq) in Melee dps groups is way better..If you have 7 Healers in raid they should beDefiler, Templar, Warden (MT group - I know some dont put warden in there, but most do)Mystic Templar Offtank groupWarden/Fury caster group (warden preferred, but both can do)Fury/inq Melee group (inq preferred, but both can do) __________________ Strom was Strom.. Someone had to be.. In honor and memory of.. Main: Tease 90 Illusionist - The Lost Order Alts: Nicol Bolas 90 Bruiser 90 Weaponsmith - The Lost Order Scipius Africanus 90 Fury - The Lost Order Shauku Endbringer 90 Beserker - The Lost Order Gosta Dirk 90 Dirge - The Lost Order Leshrac Sigil 90 Defiler - The Lost Order Geffer 62 Coercer 10 Tradeskiller - Retired Splitpaw server for the win..

01-25-2007, 10:58 PM	#12
netman General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bordeaux - France Posts: 300	peepshow a écrit: To put a Fury in caster group is deffenetly not the best choice, sure they give INT, but casters SHOULD'NT need that in T7, if they do, they need to farm some of the easyer zones for better gear.. Fury (or Inq) in Melee dps groups is way better.. Remind me the max stat cap ? Do you know people INT capped in Raid ? peepshow a écrit: If you have 7 Healers in raid they should be Defiler, Templar, Warden (MT group - I know some dont put warden in there, but most do) Mystic Templar Offtank group Warden/Fury caster group (warden preferred, but both can do) Fury/inq Melee group (inq preferred, but both can do) Maybe some Raid Leaders keep their warden for pity in MT group, but it's not optimal and this slot seems to be wasted... (sorry for my english ) Message modifié par netmania le 01-25-2007 10:01 AM

01-26-2007, 02:25 AM	#13
KannaWhoopass Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 399	Wardens buff healers Wardens are wisdom buffers So in a main tank group with a shamen and a cleric with us there their wisdom is at least 60 higher group buff add the ability to buff them both with the aspect of th hawk + 600 power + 90 wisdom ..or something like that ... adding almost 900 power to the 2 healers in the mt group then add the proc heal ..fast heals and with heirophant the ability to conserve power like no other .... Wardens are [Removed for Content] in MT ...

01-26-2007, 03:21 AM	#14
Fingolfin2 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 73	The only things a warden is better at than anyone is buffing attack skill on a single person and wisdom. The only spot a warden can try to justify in a raid is the MT group for the attack buff, pwr buffs, and spores and resists to a lesser extent . None of these are needed but they do help more than a fury would. A fury is much better suited to any sort of dps group, caster or melee. Agitate, Vim, Fae fires and personal dps. A few nights ago our other warden was on and we were short a fury so I popped on to my guildmates fury. I was doing 1200dps on trash and had no problem staying high on the healparse list spot healing on harder stuff all while boosting my group's dps. I had never played a fury before and she didnt even have energy aa line finished. :/ Message Edited by Fingolfin2 on 01-25-2007 02:21 PM __________________ /

01-26-2007, 12:26 PM	#15
panther55 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 96	I usually top the heal parse when we are fighting the mobs that count. In deathtoll when we fight the amorpheus drake(who i swear is harder than tarinax now. That is so wrong). I will be up 60k on heals until we take down the first of the two mobs it splits into. This is with our MT group being Guard, Def, Temp, Fury, Coercer, [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I am switched into OT group just for this fight and we usually have Mys, Templar, War, Conj, Dirge, Guar. We hold the Virulent while everyone else kills the Healthy. __________________ Odyssey 71 Ranger Odysham 80 Warden Immortal Fellowship Mistmoore

01-26-2007, 09:50 PM	#16
Drtydog Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 83	This is a funny thread arguing over who parses the most..Raiding 5-6 days a week t6 and t7 i can tell you that a druid is the most diverse healer. Over the course of the raid I'll end up in every grp at least for one fight usually. When you have 3 druids in a raid, and with the numbers in the game this is not urealistic, they continue to over write each others Chloro regen...which leaves you, as the warden, with the two smaller directs with small proc amts...If the mob is not aoeing, causing your grp to get hit then there is no way you can sit there and tell me you, as a warden, are going to out parse a mytic, templar, or defiler on every single raid when the parser sits there and counts the dmg the wards are taking. That aside, measuring the parse to determine how good a healer is doing is really a [I cannot control my vocabulary] way to measure a healer's ability or worth anyway. Maybe I suck, I dont' know, but typically on a raid with 6-7 healers i'll never out parse the shamans...the rest are situational depending on way to many variables to make an honest comparison...so that leaves poistions 3-5 on the parse and i've been in every position. but hey i'm prolly just a noob __________________ Octavos---- --80 Paly 80 Weaponsmith Galand --------80 ShadowKnight 80 Carpenter Mugmandos---80 Mystic 80 Alchemist Ratikal---------80 Dirge 80 Sage Savin-----------72 Warden 80 Jeweler Ashaa----------70 Bruiser 80 Armorer Kierra----------62 Assassin 80 Woodworker Vexulm--------35 Warlock 80 Tailor

01-31-2007, 10:16 PM	#17
Xendo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 51	buoymarker28 wrote: This is a funny thread arguing over who parses the most..Raiding 5-6 days a week t6 and t7 i can tell you that a druid is the most diverse healer. Over the course of the raid I'll end up in every grp at least for one fight usually. I agree. We are very diverse and our most power efficient heals don't require being struck to activate. When you have 3 druids in a raid, and with the numbers in the game this is not urealistic, they continue to over write each others Chloro regen...which leaves you, as the warden, with the two smaller directs with small proc amts...If the mob is not aoeing, causing your grp to get hit then there is no way you can sit there and tell me you, as a warden, are going to out parse a mytic, templar, or defiler on every single raid when the parser sits there and counts the dmg the wards are taking. If you guys are overwriting each others chloro thats just lack of organization/communication on the raid. Clerics and shammies shouldn't reactive / ward the MT when outside of the MT group unless that healer goes down. Same goes for Regen let the MT druid do it or at least assign a druid that responisibility. That aside, measuring the parse to determine how good a healer is doing is really a [I cannot control my vocabulary] way to measure a healer's ability or worth anyway. Parse results are so situational its not really worth losing any sleep over it. Most cases you'll find the MT Shaman and MT Cleric up top because of their wards/ reactives. Depending on the situation any other damage (AoE, spike damage, lost aggro damage) will fall on the hands of the other healers. Druids excel in this regard our spells are the fastest casting. A fury who knows what he's doing can soak this up faster than a warden since their DH are direct. Wardens niche is the consistancy of our heals our heals linger around and heal after the next hit squeezeing in some when the others can't. Alot of times Heals are wasted you can see that in a parse from non MT clerics/shamans usally by the time they casted a DH in response to a damage spike 3 druids would have already landed theirs. The result extra clerics and shaman often are very low on parses (SoE at least gave them a bone and upped their DPS and gave them good debuffs) Only in times of alot of spike damage or AoE damage will you see druids high on parses the fewer the druids the potentially higher they can go as well (to a point a druid can only heal so many ppl after all) Maybe I suck, I dont' know, but typically on a raid with 6-7 healers i'll never out parse the shamans...the rest are situational depending on way to many variables to make an honest comparison...so that leaves poistions 3-5 on the parse and i've been in every position. but hey i'm prolly just a noob It's highly situational. I've had fights where i'm the lowest amongst all druids (but i'll still stay ahead of extra cleric/shamans). I've had fights where i nearly doubled the 2nd place healer(MT shammy). Personally with what a Warden can bring we are nicely suited for the MT group. Spores, Tree are some low power cost healing options with a MT is recieveing damage that blows thru wards/reactives. that can only be utilized when in the MT group. Tanks tend to burn alot of power in their efforts at aggro management Spirit of the bat (AA enhanced especially, a warden exclusive) is well worth putting on the MT. Mob drained his power on pull you can always toss hierophantic advent and stun heal transfer power to him (approx. 900 power over 36 secs @M1). Since you would be in the MT group you would be most likely the one instructed to use regen. Besides as I stated before a fury can land a more direct fast cast spot heal anyways they can be used for that in any position. Our Typical MT group Guardian, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Coercer (also note the physical mit effect from Protection of the Oak series doesn't stack with clerics drop it and use that extra concentration spot to have 3 aspects of the Hawk up (one for each healer) However there is that downside, If you already have a Warden and Fury on the raid and had a choice to add another druid. Most often it'll be a fury because of the faster direct heal and DPS which is what additional healers are most often doing. The benefit they provide casters are nice as well. A Typical Caster DPS group is often (random 3 mages any combo of Warlocks,Wizards,Conjurors or Necromancers), Illusionist, Trouadour, Fury Typically though we try to have 1 druid for each group on a raid Ideally 1 Warden 3 Furies, 2 and 2 is nice for encounters where 2 tanks are needed (Amorphous Drake for example) but often not a real necessity. Especially if you have a 2nd shaman and a 2nd cleric to go with the 2nd tank. (for those counting thats 8 healers which often is more than what we typically would need. But IMO that set up can do anything out there with ease. Message Edited by Xendo on 01-31-2007 10:52 AM

02-01-2007, 04:53 AM	#18
Oakum Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,441	scalzo wrote: Warden out heals a Fury any day of the week. A MT group would be crazy not to want a warden in it due to the proc heal also. And yes I have seen Warden's out heal parse all priests classes. So why would you not want a Warden? LoL, actually I would say that we CAN outheal other healers because we are not distracted too much by debuffing if the tank/group is taking more damage then the ward then the reactive heals AND we dont waste half our heals because the fury,cleric, shaman heals the mt/group with their heals without a regen component. In other words, if they are just not using any heals besides their wards/reactives. Message Edited by Oakum on 01-31-2007 06:51 PM __________________

02-05-2007, 02:12 PM	#19
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Raiding warden= 90% to 95% we heal and are best with long fights or aoes damage which is 10% to 20% of the time lol. If a shamen and a cleric is doing a good job at healing um idk u get very bored mybe try and ask the shamen , cleric to slack a little! When last time any raid leader said we need a warden, were is are warden lol. it's more like were is the shamen, cleric lol. Furys, shamens, clerics are more common then iron clusters! Wonder why???? Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 02-05-2007 05:29 AM

02-06-2007, 12:28 AM	#20
Fromingo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 536	The only thing I really want to see is my Predatory Instinct line to either A) Work on my whole group or B) Work on 1 target and caster simultaneously. Raid Leader/MT's want it for the MT but then I'm gimped when it's off me.

02-06-2007, 01:58 AM	#21
CodeKill General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 253	Fun, but most raids that I've been in when we actually have a warden, I out parse for heals easily. As for buffs, we both have something to bring to the table, as for why wardens are usually required for MT grps along with a templar, and a shammy and/or a Fury, is purely to keep the tank up and alive and kicking, and that the buffs cast by both druid type stackwell and Wardens have a better throwing save heal, where a Fury would have to spam for more health. The warden tree is also used alot, where fury's get the burning ring of fire. Fury's are an offensice healer, and out dps Wardens, Wardens are defensive players and can better protect the MT when the mobs are harder.

02-06-2007, 04:35 AM	#22
Sorano Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 505	If you are outparsing all other healers on a raid, I suggest you look into getting a new shaman. The majority of mobs in EOF raidzones do not break through wards, and when they do it will be streaky spike damage that the furys in the raid are more than capable of dealing with. Yes there are a few mobs where warden healing is required, but they are few and far between. Wardens have to fall back on their secondary role, which is dps for 95% of the raid content available, or risk being bored out of their skulls. __________________

02-06-2007, 09:45 AM	#23
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Sorano wrote: If you are outparsing all other healers on a raid, I suggest you look into getting a new shaman. The majority of mobs in EOF raidzones do not break through wards, and when they do it will be streaky spike damage that the furys in the raid are more than capable of dealing with. Yes there are a few mobs where warden healing is required, but they are few and far between. Wardens have to fall back on their secondary role, which is dps for 95% of the raid content available, or risk being bored out of their skulls. AMEN!