Leaf Covered Tome of the Warden (Compiled List of Bugs and Suggestions; Updated: 26 Nov 2006) - Page 6

Shennr · 04-11-2006, 07:22 PM

Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed

It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps. There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance. You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance.

This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap.

The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer. We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others. We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance. While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage.

The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense. The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell.

This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power. The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.

mikemcmodmi · 04-11-2006, 08:59 PM

Well I'm not saying we should get rid of sandstorm or change it to where it's only good for raiding. I'm saying we should change it to where it has benefits across all parts of the game instead of just groups of 6 like it is atm. Power cost is too high to use soloing or in small group, no benefit to raiding.

As for changing Sandstorm to a buff that's cast with no root and less of a power cost... I don't know. It would then be good for soloing and group but would miss the raid part of this game. Imo too many see this game as a raider vs group vs solo. It's all part of the same game and I'd rather something that helped us everywhere.

There's the other issue where SoE has gone to buffs that either cost power over time for a set duration or passive buffs. I've never seen one where upgrades make the duration longer. I know it would seem like an easy thing to add, but it might not be. I really think SoE messed up when they gave temps stoneskin. Stoneskin should have been given to Wardens since it's essentially avoidance but now it's sort of too late... that would have been perfect for an avoidance healer SMILEY

Btw, I don't have numbers but I've been talking to a cleric friend of mine.... we might have a lot more problems then just buffs and I'm going to talk to him and test it out for numbers....

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-11-2006 10:00 AM

Rappy · 04-11-2006, 09:02 PM

may be nice to have some sort of power regen, PotG in eq1 had a mana regen component

Barand · 04-11-2006, 10:08 PM

already have spirit of the bat and hierophantic line for manaand for people who care about group and solo, warden is already very good in those 2 part. We dont need any improvment here.Most of the complaint comes from a raid point of view. We fall behind in raid since it demand great utility tool to be efficient and one of our most important utility is useless (stun)

slayerwarrior · 04-11-2006, 10:42 PM

benediction of the wild should have the wisdom remove and 17 % hp buff replace on it imo, and the hp buff would be ten X more useful then the wisdom. For sandstorm why can they just not take off the def part of it, but put in place % avoidance like a % hp buff so it has more of use and add to overall avoidance.Just to Say remove defence part even tho it add 3% to avoidance just for more time would be a nerf making it even less useful.Don't want more power regen, and please that just be something that will not help + Illusionist and Coercer thats their job imo. add when your low on power all mages can help in this part.

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-11-2006 12:05 PM

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-11-2006 12:21 PM

Unmask · 04-12-2006, 09:30 AM

The problem is that this doesn't address the core issue - that the duststorm line is completely useless on raids. I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about this spell with respect to group/solo content. It's a thorny issue though since we'd like to see it useful in raids and remain worthwhile for groups but without overpowering it.

I think the real answer is tweaking the combat rules to make defense skill more important and avoidance actually mean something. But I don't see that happening. Other than that perhaps this spell should be a single target buff like the instinct line since the only one who really needs this buff is the MT. I don't know about anyone else but as a defensive healer, have a +65 combat buff but a meager +28 defensive buff seems lopsided for a defensive healer. So maybe making it a single target but more potent buff is the best we can hope for?

Shennron wrote:

Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed

It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps. There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance. You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance.

This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap.

The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer. We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others. We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance. While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage.

The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense. The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell.

This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power. The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.

slayerwarrior · 04-12-2006, 09:52 AM

Unmasked wrote:

The problem is that this doesn't address the core issue - that the duststorm line is completely useless on raids. I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about this spell with respect to group/solo content. It's a thorny issue though since we'd like to see it useful in raids and remain worthwhile for groups but without overpowering it.

I think the real answer is tweaking the combat rules to make defense skill more important and avoidance actually mean something. But I don't see that happening. Other than that perhaps this spell should be a single target buff like the instinct line since the only one who really needs this buff is the MT. I don't know about anyone else but as a defensive healer, have a +65 combat buff but a meager +28 defensive buff seems lopsided for a defensive healer. So maybe making it a single target but more potent buff is the best we can hope for?

Shennron wrote:

Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed

It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps. There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance. You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance.

This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap.

The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer. We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others. We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance. While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage.

The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense. The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell.

This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power. The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.

In reading both post u just made me sad >:/ sry to say that cuase it's of topic.

mikemcmodmi · 04-12-2006, 11:35 AM

I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class. Just a hunch =p. Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything. Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken'). Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going.

mikemcmodmi · 04-12-2006, 12:07 PM

Actually, thinking about it there is an easy fix. Since defense is capped I believe Sandstorm should be changed. Please add:

Change defense of sandstorm (since 28 defense even pushes a healer past cap, hehe jk) so sandstorm becomes an ability that scales for the future. Give us anything. Mitigation, hps, whatever. Just something that scales and isn't capped (or capped so easily) so with each expansion you don't get similar complaints.
Change our Agi AA ability that makes faster hots also effect the hot portion of our direct heals. This will get around the spell haste issue where we lose ticks on our heals if we spam heal because with haste the heal freshes and we can recast before the ticks of healing can expire. Plus will help spike damage issues.

Please fix them soon too =p

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-12-2006 01:12 AM

Rappy · 04-12-2006, 02:02 PM

Totally agree and to illustrate this, I'm back to using duststorm because the defense capping renders the upgrade pointlessEDIT - perhaps it is time to post this on the spells and combat forum

Message Edited by Rappy on 04-12-2006 03:03 AM

slayerwarrior · 04-12-2006, 02:16 PM

Even if they add are direct heal hot still going to lower duration. making it not heal for more but same just faster, but i don't know how much it will help.

Barand · 04-12-2006, 02:48 PM

A good thread on spell forum may attire attention because i think no dev read this one anymore

Crimson Dragon · 04-12-2006, 08:04 PM

we might just have to deal with the fact that some spells are for raids and others are for grouping. heaven forbid, we get something that has a strength in one area, but falls short elsewhere. i'm pretty sure it's near-impossible to level to 70 on just raiding (i don't think there are even any raid mobs until about 20). i see raiding guild people in groups all the time. so... having a spell like sandstorm that's really best-used in groups isn't going to hurt our class. if it doesn't work in raids, don't use it in raids. it doesn't need to be fixed just to tailor to all the raiding people. not everyone who plays this game, or the warden class, is going to be raiding. especially not all the time. you will spend a lot of time in groups, so use it then.anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.unfortunately, we're given all these numbers to work with, but we can't parse hate values for group / raid members or see the tank's defensive stats (in full detail) at any time to know exactly how things are working. sometimes you have to put a little faith in your spells and do what feels like it works for you.

Unmask · 04-12-2006, 08:55 PM

mikemcmodmike wrote:
I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class. Just a hunch =p. Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything. Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken'). Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going.

This is not a warden issue since we're not the only ones who benefit from or buff +defense. The fact is that avoidance means very little in a raid anyway so what's the point of even having the skill? This is what I'm suggesting.

Unmask · 04-12-2006, 08:59 PM

Crimson Dragon wrote:

anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.

When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.

Crimson Dragon · 04-12-2006, 09:01 PM

Unmasked wrote:

mikemcmodmike wrote:
I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class. Just a hunch =p. Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything. Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken'). Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going.

This is not a warden issue since we're not the only ones who benefit from or buff +defense. The fact is that avoidance means very little in a raid anyway so what's the point of even having the skill? This is what I'm suggesting.

avoidance means something in raids. it's only an issue against orange con epics, who have unholy powers of hitting and ignoring mitigation and avoidance. so against yellow con and lower (for the tank) avoidance is useful, even in raids.see my previous post (right before yours) as to why we have the skill.

Crimson Dragon · 04-12-2006, 09:06 PM

Unmasked wrote:

Crimson Dragon wrote:anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.

When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.

yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. :smileywink:

Unmask · 04-12-2006, 09:16 PM

An increase in avoidance of 0.2% is 1 more miss every 500 attacks if avoidance works as stated. However, the avoidance number is only the chance against an even con solo mob. Your avoidance vs a yellow mob is subtantially less and an epic mob also ignores a portion of your avoidance. So even if the buff really stops that 1 extra hit in 500 attacks from an even conned solo mob, vs a yellow epic it might only stop the 1 extra hit in say, 5,000 (forget about the orange epic).

Like I said before, it's worthwhile in a group setting but it's for the stun not the extra avoidance (usually).

Crimson Dragon wrote:

Unmasked wrote:

Crimson Dragon wrote:

anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.

When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.

yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. :smileywink:

slayerwarrior · 04-12-2006, 11:09 PM

Unmasked wrote:

An increase in avoidance of 0.2% is 1 more miss every 500 attacks if avoidance works as stated. However, the avoidance number is only the chance against an even con solo mob. Your avoidance vs a yellow mob is subtantially less and an epic mob also ignores a portion of your avoidance. So even if the buff really stops that 1 extra hit in 500 attacks from an even conned solo mob, vs a yellow epic it might only stop the 1 extra hit in say, 5,000 (forget about the orange epic).

Like I said before, it's worthwhile in a group setting but it's for the stun not the extra avoidance (usually).

Crimson Dragon wrote:

Unmasked wrote:

Crimson Dragon wrote:

anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.

When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.

yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. :smileywink:

They do have away fix sandstorm, but it's in templar's agi aa line if u want to just read my post in (why everone think wardens are broke), but it grant them the ability to use a check to avoidance, then recheck,s the avoidance with the spell. So it's allowing to check avoidance twice once with their on avoidance, then recheck with the spell avoidance.

mikemcmodmi · 04-13-2006, 12:17 AM

Well I disagree that avoidance means that much.

Vs a lvl 74 (yellow) mob our tank was being hit consistently about 85% of the time. Of those hits, 20% of them were being eaten up by stoneskin. You tell me what's better, stoneskin or defense. Now this was on a zerk with a shielder giving a % chance to avoid based on his avoidance. The temp stoneskin alone was almost just as good as everything the tank had that buffed avoidance along with a shielder.

Now I'm not saying avoidance is useless, just that it's benefit is severely limited and there are other things, hps/mitigation/stoneskin, that make a hell of a lot more difference then avoidance. .2% avoidance is nothing, adding to 50% avoidance for the tank and shielder which adds up to what, less then 15% of the mob's hits total vs a lvl 74 YELLOW epic. You want to keep the .2% additional avoidance and feel that it's balanced?

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-12-2006 01:24 PM

Crimson Dragon · 04-13-2006, 02:52 AM

balanced? of course i don't feel it's balanced.LU13 took care of the balance.

mikemcmodmi · 04-14-2006, 02:19 AM

Yup, sandstorm needs to be fixed.

The other thing that is a joke is resists. Vs certain mobs their attacks are only 50% resistable. So our wis buffs aren't doing anything at all. Our buffs are a joke and need to be fixed, or SoE needs to fix their combat system because its way too simplistic.

Even if resists are good vs certain mobs. Go lookup the ring called 'dragonscale ring'. It adds 639 to every resists, 110 to health and power, 71 to mitigation. My friends, 1 legendary ring you could argue is as good as all our buffs combined. We add 700 to all resists with wis and resist buffs, 321 to health, additional cold/heat buffs though, nothing to mitigation (shaman and clerics mit buffs takes precendence over ours).

So the comparision of our buffs vs that one ring:

We add 61 more to resists
We add 211 more to health
Ring adds 71 more to mitigation
Our solo buffs of attack, tranquilizing spores (damage shield can be put on from an off group by a fury)
We add 928 to heat and 1160 to cold

This is all with master buffs btw... So unless you specifically need heat and cold resists and your tank can't max them out, there's a serious argument that 1 ring is equal to all our buffs save tranquilizing spores.... a legendary t7 ring that's a quest reward. So you think we should be in G1? hehe. Or have good buffs? Can any other healer class besides say a fury say that? Even then since int isn't capped by tanks ever maybe you can't even say that about them.

Oh yes though, we add power and lots more, but i'm talkign about defensive buffs.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-13-2006 03:43 PM

Rappy · 04-15-2006, 05:51 AM

had a level 40 mystic overwrite my buffs this week before i mentored down, my mitigation dropped until he cancelled them. Why may I ask are these stacking issues still in the game?

Crimson Dragon · 04-15-2006, 10:02 PM

deleted remark

Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on 04-15-2006 11:06 AM

Barand · 04-16-2006, 12:58 AM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13506this old thread already speak about stacking buff issue. Nothing has changed since then.

Touryn · 04-16-2006, 03:07 AM

Announcing another update. The primary change was striking evac since the recent LU dropped its cast time down to 3 seconds, making us nearly equivalent to scouts. Additionally, I did some language changes of the solo, hard group and raid messages.The devs have dropped hints at Fan Faire that they will be working on priest soloing. This will likely mean further increases to priest DPS and this will only serve to marginalize one of the few advantages we have.As for hard & raid solutions, I have started to argue that moving HP buffing to druids would probably not be a bad idea, considering that it is most compatible with our healing style. I have also emphasized the possibility of modifying sandstorm (adding mit instead of avoidance) or adding group mana regen.

slayerwarrior · 04-16-2006, 04:03 AM

Who want group mana regen not i!

Touryn · 04-16-2006, 06:56 AM

I can't say I particularly like the idea of mana regen either. I feel it is redundant (several classes have it) and only serves to take more things onto our class while leaving the underlying problems unfixed (i.e. a bandaid); however, it was discussed and some people believe it is a viable option so I included it. I try to include solutions that I don't personally agree with if they are reasonable. Standards of reasonability are subject to change day to day.

slayerwarrior · 04-16-2006, 07:13 AM

ok , and i know i also said to put overall % of avoidance on it. More in line with are class even rappy in another post said that might work.Thanks i uderstand u need to inclue all ideals.

mikemcmodmi · 04-16-2006, 09:14 PM

If you're going to ask for mana regen, make sure it's a cast short term mana boost. If it's a passive buff, then it will factor into the mana regen cap. So iow, for raiding wardens it will be useless.

04-11-2006, 08:59 PM	#152
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Well I'm not saying we should get rid of sandstorm or change it to where it's only good for raiding. I'm saying we should change it to where it has benefits across all parts of the game instead of just groups of 6 like it is atm. Power cost is too high to use soloing or in small group, no benefit to raiding. As for changing Sandstorm to a buff that's cast with no root and less of a power cost... I don't know. It would then be good for soloing and group but would miss the raid part of this game. Imo too many see this game as a raider vs group vs solo. It's all part of the same game and I'd rather something that helped us everywhere. There's the other issue where SoE has gone to buffs that either cost power over time for a set duration or passive buffs. I've never seen one where upgrades make the duration longer. I know it would seem like an easy thing to add, but it might not be. I really think SoE messed up when they gave temps stoneskin. Stoneskin should have been given to Wardens since it's essentially avoidance but now it's sort of too late... that would have been perfect for an avoidance healer Btw, I don't have numbers but I've been talking to a cleric friend of mine.... we might have a lot more problems then just buffs and I'm going to talk to him and test it out for numbers.... Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-11-2006 10:00 AM

04-11-2006, 09:02 PM	#153
Rappy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 200	may be nice to have some sort of power regen, PotG in eq1 had a mana regen component __________________ Tracx Skyfire - 70 Warden of Permafrost Leader of Clan Nan Dreolan - Euro guild

04-12-2006, 09:30 AM	#156
Unmask Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,132	The problem is that this doesn't address the core issue - that the duststorm line is completely useless on raids. I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about this spell with respect to group/solo content. It's a thorny issue though since we'd like to see it useful in raids and remain worthwhile for groups but without overpowering it. I think the real answer is tweaking the combat rules to make defense skill more important and avoidance actually mean something. But I don't see that happening. Other than that perhaps this spell should be a single target buff like the instinct line since the only one who really needs this buff is the MT. I don't know about anyone else but as a defensive healer, have a +65 combat buff but a meager +28 defensive buff seems lopsided for a defensive healer. So maybe making it a single target but more potent buff is the best we can hope for? Shennron wrote: Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps. There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance. You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance. This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap. The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer. We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others. We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance. While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage. The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense. The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell. This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power. The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well. __________________ Clint Eastwoods Oasis dogs > cats /wagtail

04-12-2006, 09:52 AM	#157
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Unmasked wrote: The problem is that this doesn't address the core issue - that the duststorm line is completely useless on raids. I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about this spell with respect to group/solo content. It's a thorny issue though since we'd like to see it useful in raids and remain worthwhile for groups but without overpowering it. I think the real answer is tweaking the combat rules to make defense skill more important and avoidance actually mean something. But I don't see that happening. Other than that perhaps this spell should be a single target buff like the instinct line since the only one who really needs this buff is the MT. I don't know about anyone else but as a defensive healer, have a +65 combat buff but a meager +28 defensive buff seems lopsided for a defensive healer. So maybe making it a single target but more potent buff is the best we can hope for? Shennron wrote: Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps. There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance. You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance. This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap. The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer. We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others. We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance. While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage. The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense. The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell. This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power. The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well. In reading both post u just made me sad >:/ sry to say that cuase it's of topic.

04-12-2006, 12:07 PM	#159
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Actually, thinking about it there is an easy fix. Since defense is capped I believe Sandstorm should be changed. Please add: Change defense of sandstorm (since 28 defense even pushes a healer past cap, hehe jk) so sandstorm becomes an ability that scales for the future. Give us anything. Mitigation, hps, whatever. Just something that scales and isn't capped (or capped so easily) so with each expansion you don't get similar complaints. Change our Agi AA ability that makes faster hots also effect the hot portion of our direct heals. This will get around the spell haste issue where we lose ticks on our heals if we spam heal because with haste the heal freshes and we can recast before the ticks of healing can expire. Plus will help spike damage issues. Please fix them soon too =p Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-12-2006 01:12 AM

04-11-2006, 07:22 PM	#151
Shennr Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 346	Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps. There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance. You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance. This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap. The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer. We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others. We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance. While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage. The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense. The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell. This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power. The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.

04-11-2006, 10:08 PM	#154
Barand General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 358	already have spirit of the bat and hierophantic line for manaand for people who care about group and solo, warden is already very good in those 2 part. We dont need any improvment here.Most of the complaint comes from a raid point of view. We fall behind in raid since it demand great utility tool to be efficient and one of our most important utility is useless (stun)

04-11-2006, 10:42 PM	#155
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	benediction of the wild should have the wisdom remove and 17 % hp buff replace on it imo, and the hp buff would be ten X more useful then the wisdom. For sandstorm why can they just not take off the def part of it, but put in place % avoidance like a % hp buff so it has more of use and add to overall avoidance.Just to Say remove defence part even tho it add 3% to avoidance just for more time would be a nerf making it even less useful.Don't want more power regen, and please that just be something that will not help + Illusionist and Coercer thats their job imo. add when your low on power all mages can help in this part. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-11-2006 12:05 PM Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-11-2006 12:21 PM

04-12-2006, 11:35 AM	#158
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class. Just a hunch =p. Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything. Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken'). Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going.

04-12-2006, 02:02 PM	#160
Rappy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 200	Totally agree and to illustrate this, I'm back to using duststorm because the defense capping renders the upgrade pointlessEDIT - perhaps it is time to post this on the spells and combat forum Message Edited by Rappy on 04-12-2006 03:03 AM __________________ Tracx Skyfire - 70 Warden of Permafrost Leader of Clan Nan Dreolan - Euro guild

04-12-2006, 02:16 PM	#161
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Even if they add are direct heal hot still going to lower duration. making it not heal for more but same just faster, but i don't know how much it will help.

04-12-2006, 02:48 PM	#162
Barand General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 358	A good thread on spell forum may attire attention because i think no dev read this one anymore

04-12-2006, 08:04 PM	#163
Crimson Dragon Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 913	we might just have to deal with the fact that some spells are for raids and others are for grouping. heaven forbid, we get something that has a strength in one area, but falls short elsewhere. i'm pretty sure it's near-impossible to level to 70 on just raiding (i don't think there are even any raid mobs until about 20). i see raiding guild people in groups all the time. so... having a spell like sandstorm that's really best-used in groups isn't going to hurt our class. if it doesn't work in raids, don't use it in raids. it doesn't need to be fixed just to tailor to all the raiding people. not everyone who plays this game, or the warden class, is going to be raiding. especially not all the time. you will spend a lot of time in groups, so use it then.anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.unfortunately, we're given all these numbers to work with, but we can't parse hate values for group / raid members or see the tank's defensive stats (in full detail) at any time to know exactly how things are working. sometimes you have to put a little faith in your spells and do what feels like it works for you. __________________ The best way to predict the future is to create it.

04-12-2006, 08:55 PM	#164
Unmask Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,132	mikemcmodmike wrote: I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class. Just a hunch =p. Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything. Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken'). Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going. This is not a warden issue since we're not the only ones who benefit from or buff +defense. The fact is that avoidance means very little in a raid anyway so what's the point of even having the skill? This is what I'm suggesting. __________________ Clint Eastwoods Oasis dogs > cats /wagtail

04-12-2006, 08:59 PM	#165
Unmask Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,132	Crimson Dragon wrote: anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too. When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm. __________________ Clint Eastwoods Oasis dogs > cats /wagtail

04-12-2006, 09:01 PM	#166
Crimson Dragon Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 913	Unmasked wrote: mikemcmodmike wrote: I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class. Just a hunch =p. Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything. Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken'). Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going. This is not a warden issue since we're not the only ones who benefit from or buff +defense. The fact is that avoidance means very little in a raid anyway so what's the point of even having the skill? This is what I'm suggesting. avoidance means something in raids. it's only an issue against orange con epics, who have unholy powers of hitting and ignoring mitigation and avoidance. so against yellow con and lower (for the tank) avoidance is useful, even in raids.see my previous post (right before yours) as to why we have the skill. __________________ The best way to predict the future is to create it.

04-12-2006, 09:06 PM	#167
Crimson Dragon Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 913	Unmasked wrote: Crimson Dragon wrote:anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too. When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm. yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. :smileywink: __________________ The best way to predict the future is to create it.

04-12-2006, 09:16 PM	#168
Unmask Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,132	An increase in avoidance of 0.2% is 1 more miss every 500 attacks if avoidance works as stated. However, the avoidance number is only the chance against an even con solo mob. Your avoidance vs a yellow mob is subtantially less and an epic mob also ignores a portion of your avoidance. So even if the buff really stops that 1 extra hit in 500 attacks from an even conned solo mob, vs a yellow epic it might only stop the 1 extra hit in say, 5,000 (forget about the orange epic). Like I said before, it's worthwhile in a group setting but it's for the stun not the extra avoidance (usually). Crimson Dragon wrote: Unmasked wrote: Crimson Dragon wrote: anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too. When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm. yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. :smileywink: __________________ Clint Eastwoods Oasis dogs > cats /wagtail

04-12-2006, 11:09 PM	#169
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Unmasked wrote: An increase in avoidance of 0.2% is 1 more miss every 500 attacks if avoidance works as stated. However, the avoidance number is only the chance against an even con solo mob. Your avoidance vs a yellow mob is subtantially less and an epic mob also ignores a portion of your avoidance. So even if the buff really stops that 1 extra hit in 500 attacks from an even conned solo mob, vs a yellow epic it might only stop the 1 extra hit in say, 5,000 (forget about the orange epic). Like I said before, it's worthwhile in a group setting but it's for the stun not the extra avoidance (usually). Crimson Dragon wrote: Unmasked wrote: Crimson Dragon wrote: anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too. When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%. I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances. And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm. yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. :smileywink: They do have away fix sandstorm, but it's in templar's agi aa line if u want to just read my post in (why everone think wardens are broke), but it grant them the ability to use a check to avoidance, then recheck,s the avoidance with the spell. So it's allowing to check avoidance twice once with their on avoidance, then recheck with the spell avoidance.

04-13-2006, 12:17 AM	#170
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Well I disagree that avoidance means that much. Vs a lvl 74 (yellow) mob our tank was being hit consistently about 85% of the time. Of those hits, 20% of them were being eaten up by stoneskin. You tell me what's better, stoneskin or defense. Now this was on a zerk with a shielder giving a % chance to avoid based on his avoidance. The temp stoneskin alone was almost just as good as everything the tank had that buffed avoidance along with a shielder. Now I'm not saying avoidance is useless, just that it's benefit is severely limited and there are other things, hps/mitigation/stoneskin, that make a hell of a lot more difference then avoidance. .2% avoidance is nothing, adding to 50% avoidance for the tank and shielder which adds up to what, less then 15% of the mob's hits total vs a lvl 74 YELLOW epic. You want to keep the .2% additional avoidance and feel that it's balanced? Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-12-2006 01:24 PM

04-13-2006, 02:52 AM	#171
Crimson Dragon Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 913	balanced? of course i don't feel it's balanced.LU13 took care of the balance. __________________ The best way to predict the future is to create it.

04-14-2006, 02:19 AM	#172
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Yup, sandstorm needs to be fixed. The other thing that is a joke is resists. Vs certain mobs their attacks are only 50% resistable. So our wis buffs aren't doing anything at all. Our buffs are a joke and need to be fixed, or SoE needs to fix their combat system because its way too simplistic. Even if resists are good vs certain mobs. Go lookup the ring called 'dragonscale ring'. It adds 639 to every resists, 110 to health and power, 71 to mitigation. My friends, 1 legendary ring you could argue is as good as all our buffs combined. We add 700 to all resists with wis and resist buffs, 321 to health, additional cold/heat buffs though, nothing to mitigation (shaman and clerics mit buffs takes precendence over ours). So the comparision of our buffs vs that one ring: We add 61 more to resists We add 211 more to health Ring adds 71 more to mitigation Our solo buffs of attack, tranquilizing spores (damage shield can be put on from an off group by a fury) We add 928 to heat and 1160 to cold This is all with master buffs btw... So unless you specifically need heat and cold resists and your tank can't max them out, there's a serious argument that 1 ring is equal to all our buffs save tranquilizing spores.... a legendary t7 ring that's a quest reward. So you think we should be in G1? hehe. Or have good buffs? Can any other healer class besides say a fury say that? Even then since int isn't capped by tanks ever maybe you can't even say that about them. Oh yes though, we add power and lots more, but i'm talkign about defensive buffs. Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-13-2006 03:43 PM

04-15-2006, 05:51 AM	#173
Rappy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 200	had a level 40 mystic overwrite my buffs this week before i mentored down, my mitigation dropped until he cancelled them. Why may I ask are these stacking issues still in the game? __________________ Tracx Skyfire - 70 Warden of Permafrost Leader of Clan Nan Dreolan - Euro guild

04-15-2006, 10:02 PM	#174
Crimson Dragon Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 913	deleted remark Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on 04-15-2006 11:06 AM __________________ The best way to predict the future is to create it.

04-16-2006, 12:58 AM	#175
Barand General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 358	http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13506this old thread already speak about stacking buff issue. Nothing has changed since then.

04-16-2006, 03:07 AM	#176
Touryn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 57	Announcing another update. The primary change was striking evac since the recent LU dropped its cast time down to 3 seconds, making us nearly equivalent to scouts. Additionally, I did some language changes of the solo, hard group and raid messages.The devs have dropped hints at Fan Faire that they will be working on priest soloing. This will likely mean further increases to priest DPS and this will only serve to marginalize one of the few advantages we have.As for hard & raid solutions, I have started to argue that moving HP buffing to druids would probably not be a bad idea, considering that it is most compatible with our healing style. I have also emphasized the possibility of modifying sandstorm (adding mit instead of avoidance) or adding group mana regen.

04-16-2006, 04:03 AM	#177
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Who want group mana regen not i!

04-16-2006, 06:56 AM	#178
Touryn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 57	I can't say I particularly like the idea of mana regen either. I feel it is redundant (several classes have it) and only serves to take more things onto our class while leaving the underlying problems unfixed (i.e. a bandaid); however, it was discussed and some people believe it is a viable option so I included it. I try to include solutions that I don't personally agree with if they are reasonable. Standards of reasonability are subject to change day to day.

04-16-2006, 07:13 AM	#179
slayerwarrior Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	ok , and i know i also said to put overall % of avoidance on it. More in line with are class even rappy in another post said that might work.Thanks i uderstand u need to inclue all ideals.

04-16-2006, 09:14 PM	#180
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	If you're going to ask for mana regen, make sure it's a cast short term mana boost. If it's a passive buff, then it will factor into the mana regen cap. So iow, for raiding wardens it will be useless.