What a nice surprise...

[Unmask]

Logged in today and found my master 1 version of Winter's Sting was replaced with an App 1 version on my hotbar.  After a few tense moments I found out it was replaced by Solar Flame master 1.  It seems some of our cold nukes were replaced by heat nukes with no notice (at least none that I saw).  A lot of our lower level (sub 20) spells were also replaced, including our cures.  I have 2 questions:

 

1. Why wasn't this in the patch notes?

2. Why was it done at all?

[Kyralis]

It was done because they're on the Summer's Flame line, and they extended that line down to level 2 and then swapped all the higher level versions for flame based for consistency. It's a great change, IMO- now we can hit both cold and heat immune mobs.Now, as to why it wasn't in the patch notes, who knows?

[Unmask]

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Caerwyn wrote:It was done because they're on the Summer's Flame line, and they extended that line down to level 2 and then swapped all the higher level versions for flame based for consistency. It's a great change, IMO- now we can hit both cold and heat immune mobs.Now, as to why it wasn't in the patch notes, who knows?

---

Well I know what they did, the question is why and why now before the expansion - was it even on test?  Also having heat and cold nukes now means that while we can hit cold immune mobs a bit, we are also half as effective against heat immune mobs.  Not a big gain really.

P.S.  On a completely unrelated note, we had no open instances so we did SotL and Ven dropped a really nice mace for me (21 wis +7 ministration and +7 disruption among a bunch of other stats).  T6 loot is really awful compared with T5. .  The v2 prizz does look nice though if the stats from test carry over (at least the proc).

[Unmask]

Oh and I think our dogs can be killed by friendly AEs once again.

 

What's amusing is that if we name our pet all pets have that name, including the tree and our dogs.  Can be quite humorous.

[Kyralis]

Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?

[Wabit]

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Caerwyn wrote:Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?

---

aye our paly said he was gonna run around QH with consecrate on after the raids...  after lookin at the logs, thats the only friendy thing that hit the wolves (my AE's sure didn't)...  Clint got his spiffy belt from the raid too :smileyhappy: ...  then again he's the one that always says the best druid loot is mage only...

[matinisback]

Wardens old buff moves looked cool but now it stinks  but it still buff's good : )

 

[Yirabeth]

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Caerwyn wrote:Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?

---

While it sounds like the pallies have a spell that needs fixing (lol) it's also intended that the dumbfire pets (which the tree and the wolves fall under) to take aoe's put out by mobs now. A huge nerf for summoner classes when this is the majority of their dps (my alt is necro lol) and it's basically a graphical dot (I don't see other styles of player dots being aoe'able, nor do they have a tremendous recast time) On my necro, I just wish they'd turn those dumbfires into normal dots, although I have to admit I sure like my puppies, they're fun   Imagine trying to place that tree behind a mob to (hopefully) avoid aoe's...tree isn't gonna follow the mob around like the puppies will if the encounter moves at all.Aside from that my other concern is the fact that the Winter's Sting line was made all heat, where it used to be some heat, some cold. There's very few cold resistant mobs in the game, and what there WAS you could switch out the fire based dd for your HO's (in solo play -- in (full) group play I'm too busy jamming heals to do dd anyway lol)  Now, there are ALOT of heat resistant mobs...this will significantly affect solo play, as if the mob is heat resistant you just won't find it very easy to complete an HO. Imagine heat resistant mob, leaving ONE spell to do an HO with, because you've already put the one dot you have on the mob...8 second recast time on hoarfrost...a fizzle, or a resist, and that HO will expire on you by the time you get a second shot of the flame line off.   Now granted I don't spend alot of time solo (next to none, it's just too yawn inspiring) but I do duo with a troubadour alot, so what damage I *can* do helps.  I view this as a nerf So I guess it's intended but I have to wonder if they considered a change in DPS when putting some of these changes in   (I guess other classes are gonna have lowered dps due to losing spell lines also, classes that are meant to be dps classes. Will be interesting to see if they address this or if it's 'working as intended')~Yira

[Bratface]

I don't know about you folks but my 55 Warden not only lost an ice nuke but the bug dot as well, and only got a fire nuke in exchange.

/em licks wounds from nerf stick

[Unmask]

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Caerwyn wrote:Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?

---

Yes that's the AE I noticed (dam dorf I knew he hated dogs).  I just assumed it was all AEs. :p

[Kyralis]

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Yirabeth wrote:While it sounds like the pallies have a spell that needs fixing (lol) it's also intended that the dumbfire pets (which the tree and the wolves fall under) to take aoe's put out by mobs now. A huge nerf for summoner classes when this is the majority of their dps (my alt is necro lol) and it's basically a graphical dot (I don't see other styles of player dots being aoe'able, nor do they have a tremendous recast time) On my necro, I just wish they'd turn those dumbfires into normal dots, although I have to admit I sure like my puppies, they're fun   Imagine trying to place that tree behind a mob to (hopefully) avoid aoe's...tree isn't gonna follow the mob around like the puppies will if the encounter moves at all.The tree has always been hit by AEs, actually- it never had that immunity. It's a detriment to the wolves, yes, but I think in many situations it'll merely make us time their usage better in a raid situation.Aside from that my other concern is the fact that the Winter's Sting line was made all heat, where it used to be some heat, some cold. There's very few cold resistant mobs in the game, and what there WAS you could switch out the fire based dd for your HO's (in solo play -- in (full) group play I'm too busy jamming heals to do dd anyway lol)  Now, there are ALOT of heat resistant mobs...this will significantly affect solo play, as if the mob is heat resistant you just won't find it very easy to complete an HO. Imagine heat resistant mob, leaving ONE spell to do an HO with, because you've already put the one dot you have on the mob...8 second recast time on hoarfrost...a fizzle, or a resist, and that HO will expire on you by the time you get a second shot of the flame line off.   Now granted I don't spend alot of time solo (next to none, it's just too yawn inspiring) but I do duo with a troubadour alot, so what damage I *can* do helps.  I view this as a nerf They also removed immunities from a lot of mobs with this update. Also, other than lavastorm, I can't say that I really know of many heat resistant mobs at all, to be honest, outside of a raid situationSo I guess it's intended but I have to wonder if they considered a change in DPS when putting some of these changes in   (I guess other classes are gonna have lowered dps due to losing spell lines also, classes that are meant to be dps classes. Will be interesting to see if they address this or if it's 'working as intended')I think you're viewing something as far more of a nerf than it actually is. The wolf change will impact us, definitely, and that's annoying. But I bet in 95% of the situations you encounter, the cold->heat change won't have any impact at all.~Yira

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[Dragonreal]

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Bratface wrote:

I don't know about you folks but my 55 Warden not only lost an ice nuke but the bug dot as well, and only got a fire nuke in exchange.

/em licks wounds from nerf stick

---

The reason you lost he bug dot is because it's on the same line as the cold nuke was and that entire line has been changed to a heat nuke as it should be. You didn't really lose anything since that dot was always linked to the cold nuke and I don't see why you want to cast the dot anyway as its effects as a level 19 dot are negligible at 55 and you have an upgrade to it anyway (winter's bite or what's now solar burn)

[Treve]

well...the funny side of the story is this

i logged on late in the afternoon yesterday and noticed that my winter's sting was gone and i had this new unheard of spell...i thought it was a bug...so i asked in the lvl50-59 and lvl60 channels whether any of the other wardens were missing winter's sting

2 of them said tthat nothing had changed for them

[Treve]

well...this gets weirder all the time

 

i sent a /petition yesterday because I didn't know where the spell had gone...i have a response back from a GM saying no spells were changed above lvl20

 

in any event, is the dmg on the new heat spell the same as the old cold-based one?

[Arielle Nightshade]

---

Unmasked wrote:

Oh and I think our dogs can be killed by friendly AEs once again.

 

What's amusing is that if we name our pet all pets have that name, including the tree and our dogs.  Can be quite humorous.

---

You CAN rename your pets..but it goes something like this...:

type /petname    Battle starts, Plant tree, cast a regen, type /petname , Sic dogs on the mob (now differently named)....cast Tunare's watch, cause we all know how helpful that is for bringing the MT back from Near Death which has occured cause you were busy renaming your 2nd pet......heal your butt off cause you wanted your pets to have unique names....

/curtsey

[Wabit]

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Arielle Nightshade wrote:

---

Unmasked wrote:

Oh and I think our dogs can be killed by friendly AEs once again.

 

What's amusing is that if we name our pet all pets have that name, including the tree and our dogs.  Can be quite humorous.

---

You CAN rename your pets..but it goes something like this...:

type /petname   Battle starts, Plant tree, cast a regen, type /petname , Sic dogs on the mob (now differently named)....cast Tunare's watch, cause we all know how helpful that is for bringing the MT back from Near Death which has occured cause you were busy renaming your 2nd pet......heal your butt off cause you wanted your pets to have unique names....

/curtsey

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nothing to see in the above post Clint...  hes gonna try this tonight just to spite me now :smileysad:

[Unmask]

Don't worry - the more critters named Smellytot I can summon the better.

[Dragonreal]

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Treveur wrote:

well...this gets weirder all the time

 

i sent a /petition yesterday because I didn't know where the spell had gone...i have a response back from a GM saying no spells were changed above lvl20

 

in any event, is the dmg on the new heat spell the same as the old cold-based one?

---

I think the dmg is the same, but not sure..

from old post on my guild's forums (by me):

Winter's Sting (m1):455-557 cold dmg2s cast, 3s recast81 power

From looking at my screen now:

475-580 heat dmg

But I know my int has gone up since that post, but I was a ditz and didn't put what my int was when I made the post with the numbers... so... idk lol if 30-40 more int would make that kind of difference in dmg, there ya go heh idk what the int mod is

[BWShellShocked]

I lost or had downgraded on me, 4 spells as a 60 Warden.

Weakness (lvl 7): Lost , meaning I bought at Adept III, but now it shows in hotbar as App I, but is not in book, nor is it "clickable"Provoking Swarm (lvl 17): Lost, meaning icon still in hotbar as App I, but not in book, and is not "clickable", which I had bought at Adept IIIWintry Cold (lvl 51): Downgraded, which I had bought at Adept III, is now App IWinter's Sting (lvl 59): Downgraded, meaning I had bought it at Master I, but now it is only App I

And in return, I receive a replacement for my existing Summer's Flame, also purchased at Adept III, now called Solar Flame, but at least its Master.

So, I lost or had downgraded 4 spells that I frequently use, and get one "new" spell, which is nearly identical to one I already had,  but with a new name as a replacement?

What about the plat I spent buying rares, and getting them made to Adept III and the 12pp I spent buying the Master I drop?

[Treve]

---

BWShellShocked wrote:

I lost or had downgraded on me, 4 spells as a 60 Warden.

Weakness (lvl 7): Lost , meaning I bought at Adept III, but now it shows in hotbar as App I, but is not in book, nor is it "clickable"Provoking Swarm (lvl 17): Lost, meaning icon still in hotbar as App I, but not in book, and is not "clickable", which I had bought at Adept IIIWintry Cold (lvl 51): Downgraded, which I had bought at Adept III, is now App IWinter's Sting (lvl 59): Downgraded, meaning I had bought it at Master I, but now it is only App I

And in return, I receive a replacement for my existing Summer's Flame, also purchased at Adept III, now called Solar Flame, but at least its Master.

So, I lost or had downgraded 4 spells that I frequently use, and get one "new" spell, which is nearly identical to one I already had,  but with a new name as a replacement?

What about the plat I spent buying rares, and getting them made to Adept III and the 12pp I spent buying the Master I drop?

---

i'm not sure about the sub-lvl50 spells (you still use those??), but Winter's Sting was replaced with Solar Flame and should be of the same level (app1/m1, etc.) as Winter's Sting was

winter's sting is not really "nearly identical" to Solar Flame - one is cold-based, the new one is heat-based

wintry cold was not modified at all to my knowledge

[BWShellShocked]

The lower level spells (Weakness and Provoking Swarm) I still use, because there was no higher level replacement for them and they worked.  Weakness I use all the time.  Provoking swarm I didn't use often, but it did come in handy when LOM and I needed just a tiny bit more DPS to take down a mob.

By near identical, I was referring to Summer's Flame, which I had pre-LU19, and now is called Solar Flare.

The other two, were not replaced with same grade, so hopefully this is a bug that will be addressed via my /petition?

What ticks me off most about all of this though, is that I had just had those spells upgraded over the last 2 weeks.  I knew LU19 was coming out, and so I constantly checked the test notes, to see if Priest/Druid/Warden spells would be affected at all.

Had there been even an inkling in test notes that hinted at changes to my spell lines were coming, I would have held off, but seeing nothing at all besides our Nature's Ally mentioned in any of the test notes, I felt that it was safe to go ahead and upgrade them.

Even the LU19 patch notes, make no mention whatsoever, about any of these changes.  That's what bothers me the most.  I'm far from rich, and the 15 or so plat I spent upgrading those spells, is a huge blow to my wallet.

[Arielle Nightshade]

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BWShellShocked wrote:

The lower level spells (Weakness and Provoking Swarm) I still use, because there was no higher level replacement for them and they worked.  Weakness I use all the time.  Provoking swarm I didn't use often, but it did come in handy when LOM and I needed just a tiny bit more DPS to take down a mob.

By near identical, I was referring to Summer's Flame, which I had pre-LU19, and now is called Solar Flare.

The other two, were not replaced with same grade, so hopefully this is a bug that will be addressed via my /petition?

What ticks me off most about all of this though, is that I had just had those spells upgraded over the last 2 weeks.  I knew LU19 was coming out, and so I constantly checked the test notes, to see if Priest/Druid/Warden spells would be affected at all.

Had there been even an inkling in test notes that hinted at changes to my spell lines were coming, I would have held off, but seeing nothing at all besides our Nature's Ally mentioned in any of the test notes, I felt that it was safe to go ahead and upgrade them.

Even the LU19 patch notes, make no mention whatsoever, about any of these changes.  That's what bothers me the most.  I'm far from rich, and the 15 or so plat I spent upgrading those spells, is a huge blow to my wallet.

---

/agreed.  This happened in the Combat Revamp, and happened here.  Same issue you had - no mention at all that these changes would be made.  Spells that were Adept III were overwritten to App 1 or adept 1.   

These changes, plus..either we were stealth nerfed or the mobs were stealth beefed up...cause writ mobs prior to this were comfortably do-able..now I find them 'a fight'.   The Roost, for example, where we go for some fast xp (lord knows we don't go there for the loot)...used to be a casual, fun hour or two.  Now we are getting the sit kicked out of us.  

Wish they would stop 'fixing' stuff that isn't broken ..and really fix the stuff that IS.

[Bratface]

IMO, and everyone plays differently, I lost more than I *gained*, I had weakness, bug dot, ice nuke and fire nuke, and i get a fire nuke with a new name...

While others may not use older spells I happen to use them often, every little bit helps and I always used every little bit I had, now I have much less.

Everything I lost was ad3, and I got an ad1 replacement spell for all that I lost, while to uber players and raiders it may not seem like a big deal, it is to us mere average players.

[Nan]

I have posted elsewhere on these forums (yeah, I know, so /Flame off, please) but I, for one, used my Master I Provoking Swarm in conjunction with Wintry Cold Adept I in a HO.  Now I cannot do that because SoE, decided to remove one of our DoTs and not replace it with another. As for Summer's Flame, I still have my Master II Summer's Flame as well as Solar Burn Adept I, but they don't stack.  I could stack my DoTs and then stack Hoarfrost Master II and Winter's Bite Adept 1.  That double HO would net me over 2K damage per round (not counting melee damage).   Now, because I can only stack one spell  line, my double HO round is no more and I lose anywhere from  30% to 50% of my DPS.I do NOT belong to a guild and haven't grouped since I died near Splitpaw ZI (before it was Splitpaw) and grouped with high levels for a corpse run to avoid aggro from Giants and Gnolls.Addendum:  While I like the fact that we have two elemental lines of Nukes (now with more than one spell per line), there was NO reason whatsoever for SoE to remove an entire type of spell (Swarm).   So I propose the following solution.   Please add a Disease- or Poison-based Damage-over-Time spell that stacks with  Chill, Wintry Cold, etc.Nanoc MajicBlade the Loyal54 WardenMistmoore Server

[Dragonreal]

We have the exact same number of spell lines as we did before; there is NO need for a new spell line to be added.  You just have to use the heat nuke (which you should have been using anyway) to HO with.. Wintry cold, then solar burn for 1 ho then hoarfrost and solar burn for the second. The heat nuke line has the same reacst as swarm did (because it IS what we got as upgrades to the swarm line, it's just less confusing now) so you have not lost any spells at all. If you want that swarm line and to ho with mainly dots, you need to go make a fury; wardens aren't the dotters, we're the nukers.

Why don't you go try it before you complain about it? I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.

[Treve]

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Dragonrealms wrote:

 I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.

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i agree...i think this was a change a while back...it used to make no difference which matching spell you used for the HO...but i think it is now  *damage input increases the damage output*-...so using a low-lvl spell to complete a HO would produce a low damage result

[Dragonreal]

Even without the HO bonus, using the 45 nuke instead of the 19 dot would be better because they were on the same timer so in essence it's a question of choosing to use a lvl 19 spell or its lvl 45 upgrade.. obviously the higher lvlled one is going to do more damage; that's why it's an upgrade.

[Unmask]

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Dragonrealms wrote:

We have the exact same number of spell lines as we did before; there is NO need for a new spell line to be added.  You just have to use the heat nuke (which you should have been using anyway) to HO with.. Wintry cold, then solar burn for 1 ho then hoarfrost and solar burn for the second. The heat nuke line has the same reacst as swarm did (because it IS what we got as upgrades to the swarm line, it's just less confusing now) so you have not lost any spells at all. If you want that swarm line and to ho with mainly dots, you need to go make a fury; wardens aren't the dotters, we're the nukers.

Why don't you go try it before you complain about it? I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.

---

Regardless of whatether we can adapt or not, it is inexcusable that this late in the game they are still making significant changes to the game without bothering to explain or even acknowledge them.  There was no reason for the change to occur in LU19 (it was supposed to be in for beta and even there it's a big stretch to say it's of any calue).  Frankly I'm tired of having to spend so much time every LU trying to find out what they changed to my spells, abilities and UI that they "forgot" to mention.

[Arielle Nightshade]

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Unmasked wrote:

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Dragonrealms wrote:

We have the exact same number of spell lines as we did before; there is NO need for a new spell line to be added.  You just have to use the heat nuke (which you should have been using anyway) to HO with.. Wintry cold, then solar burn for 1 ho then hoarfrost and solar burn for the second. The heat nuke line has the same reacst as swarm did (because it IS what we got as upgrades to the swarm line, it's just less confusing now) so you have not lost any spells at all. If you want that swarm line and to ho with mainly dots, you need to go make a fury; wardens aren't the dotters, we're the nukers.

Why don't you go try it before you complain about it? I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.

---

Regardless of whatether we can adapt or not, it is inexcusable that this late in the game they are still making significant changes to the game without bothering to explain or even acknowledge them.  There was no reason for the change to occur in LU19 (it was supposed to be in for beta and even there it's a big stretch to say it's of any calue).  Frankly I'm tired of having to spend so much time every LU trying to find out what they changed to my spells, abilities and UI that they "forgot" to mention.

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/agreed with Clint....there's a very fine line between keeping the game fresh..and messing with us.     Everytime they do a change like this..it seems we lose more than we have gained from the change.  This one, in particular, 'feels' like...a change for change's sake - not because what they have given us (at higher levels anyway..can't speak for the sweeping revamp of under 20) is  so wonderful it's worth losing spell upgrades over.

Besides..every 'beneficial' change is not beneficial until 3 months later (maybe) when they finally get around to addressing the bugs, issues, and problems with the new 'cool' change that they didn't fix initially. 

I truly am all for a constantly evolving art form here...a virtual world such as Norrath is pretty awesome when you think about what goes into making it.   However, 'constantly evolving' is not the same thing as 'change for no good reason'.

If there IS a good reason for it..then..back to my pettest peeve:  Lack of good communication.  

[Kyralis]

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Arielle Nightshade wrote:

This one, in particular, 'feels' like...a change for change's sake - not because what they have given us (at higher levels anyway..can't speak for the sweeping revamp of under 20) is  so wonderful it's worth losing spell upgrades over.

Besides..every 'beneficial' change is not beneficial until 3 months later (maybe) when they finally get around to addressing the bugs, issues, and problems with the new 'cool' change that they didn't fix initially.

---

I'm happy to complain when I think there are complaints that need to be made, but in this case, I just disagree. Let's see what happened during this update.1) The entire Summer's Flame line became heat-based. This makes more sense, seeing as how it started out heat based. Since they extended it in down to level 2 with the early-game update, it makes sense to go ahead and make the heat-based change now. No spell upgrades were lost: if you had Master 1 Winter's Sting, you have Master 1 Solar Flame. So now we have both a heat and a cold nuke instead of just cold. No downsides at the high levels, unless you count the fact that Provoking Swarm turned into a part of this line of spells. Given that I haven't cast that spell in months anyway (defense has been pointless post-LU13 anyway), I fail to see the enormous loss here.2) Our weakness debuff became an early root. Since we're talking about a gigantic 14pt str debuff here- I again fail to see the enormous loss.I'll be the first to tell you that some of the LU13 changes broke our class for two months. But, since LU13, the following major changes have been made, barring bug-fixes like the tree's range:1) HoTs were fixed.2) Direct Heals were fixed.3) HG was fixed.4) Wolves have been played with a few times.These are not sweeping changes every update, as has been implied. With the exception of some of the wolf changes (limited pets getting hit by AEs is ridiculous IMO), they've been beneficial bug fixes. Sure, it took them a while, but I'm glad most of them finally happened.There are plenty of things in EQ2 left to complain about. The LU19 changes don't, IMO, warrant that status.