Guidelines for getting a thread that won'T get locked?

Naithik · 10-18-2005, 01:14 AM

eh yeah, seems like any thread were we complain about our situation gets locked... so mmm what are we supposed to post, except the fact that we are happy with being crappy healers?

Message Edited by Naithik on 10-17-2005 02:15 PM

Eileah · 10-18-2005, 01:27 AM

IBTL!!!!

Funny I was posting on the other recently locked thread about this very subject and found out it was locked when I clicked post lol

I think we got the message, no one has the cohones to come out and SAY for Wardens to get over it and move on, so they keep locking and nerfing, locking and nerfing... What "could" it all mean /ponder

I don't like being told to think happy thoughts about people who have ruined my class, I don't like being led down the garden path to nowhere, meanwhile having this vision of "someone who is in development" watching this forum and laughing at us cause we just don't "get the hint".....

I'm tired of being told to think happy happy thoughts and maybe the world will be a better place for you and me.....

I'm tired of being screwed and told to be thankful for the screwing.... Leave us alone to wallow in our misery together, cause right now we are all we've got, no one else cares.

Personally all the locking and attention from the mod has done nothing but make me more angry, if they can't be of help then just leave us alone to our forum.

You can't force people to be happy, no matter how many threads are locked or edited you are still just hiding the truth, not making the situation any better for anyone.

Light_Journey · 10-18-2005, 01:28 AM

Naithik wrote:

eh yeah, seems like any thread were we complain about our situation gets locked... so mmm what are we supposed to post, except the fact that we are happy with being crappy healers?

Message Edited by Naithik on 10-17-200502:15 PM

Ironically, this thread will likely be locked.

I would assume that any post that does not contain constructive feedback regarding the warden class (good or bad) will get locked. *shrug*

I also suspect as Raijinn get's more comfortable with his job as a Mod, he'll relax on the strict interpretation of the rules of conduct, and let some of the harmless bantering go, while keeping a firmer grip on the more serious stuff (the things that should be locked).

The Warden community is a littler bitter and volatile now (as are guardians and many other classes).... so I'd suspect he's being stricter than he might under normal conditions (if there is such a thing as normal) to keep the flame wars under control.

Just my take on it.

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 01:36 AM

I'm all for you all voicing your concerns, try to do it constructively providing issues and solutions to the issues that your seeing.

I really don't mind just don't let it degenerate into a hate mongering mud slinging towards anyone.

Thanks!

Aaeamdar · 10-18-2005, 01:39 AM

The last several threads you have locked had no "hate mongering" in them at all. You locked one Warden's goodbye thread that had nothing other than "sorry to see you go, but I understand" replies. Nothing but support and understanding in that one. You locked it anyway. The other one you locked recently was a request that a Dev, not a board mod, come and post. Again, that thread had nothing but polite and understanding replies. No flames. No "hate mongering." You locked it anyway. Edit: And now I see that my thread was simply deleted. :/ I guess you will delete this one soon too.

Message Edited by Aaeamdar on 10-17-2005 02:41 PM

Urkra · 10-18-2005, 01:41 AM

Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

I'm all for you all voicing your concerns, try to do it constructively providing issues and solutions to the issues that your seeing.

I really don't mind just don't let it degenerate into a hate mongering mud slinging towards anyone.

Thanks!

Raijinn, with al the due respect, this forum is full of constructive threads highlighting concerns and providing insight and solutions.

We really don't have to bring anymore solutions to SOE attention on here, we just need to be fixed, how loud and for how long should we scream before, being noticed ?

pedigr · 10-18-2005, 01:43 AM

I tell you what Raijinn - you tell us what you think is constructive posting and I'll find you a thread where its been done, ignore or locked. So far, constructive posting has got us exactly nowhere. We asked for dev input... nope, you cant have that.... Is collective agreement in a thread considered a rant?

Message Edited by pedigree on 10-17-2005 02:44 PM

Maelakai · 10-18-2005, 01:44 AM

Urkraft wrote:

Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

I'm all for you all voicing your concerns, try to do it constructively providing issues and solutions to the issues that your seeing.

I really don't mind just don't let it degenerate into a hate mongering mud slinging towards anyone.

Thanks!

Raijinn, with al the due respect, this forum is full of constructive threads highlighting concerns and providing insight and solutions.

We really don't have to bring anymore solutions to SOE attention on here, we just need to be fixed, how loud and for how long should we scream before, being noticed ?

/sign

We can be patient, but we need to know that our concerns are being looked at. With all due respect to Raijinn, he is not a developer, and a developers comments are what we need right now.

Tstorm · 10-18-2005, 02:01 AM

Venting now and then certainly happens and I don't see any red-names trigger happy to lock posts, nor do I see ultra strict enforcement of the Rules of Conduct. Raijinn Thunderguard seems to be friendly and engaging, and he seems to lock posts only when he has to. Note that he's trying to let this thread continue.I do think some of the drama on the Warden Forum has gotten a bit out of hand and I'm glad to see Raijinn stepping in and asking everyone to tone it down a notch or two. There is a way of making SOE aware of issues and the footstomping and ranting isn't the way to get it done.SOE could certainly do a better job with communicating, but I'm not sure it's safe to say SOE is ignoring Wardens. I know if I was a developer, I'd be scared silly to post in this forum for fear of being jumped by the angry mob. Developers lurk far more than post! I have seen some posts on this forum containing constructive data and one begins to wonder if enough data has been given, if we're off in some assumptions, of if changes are already planned.It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time.

Mor · 10-18-2005, 02:10 AM

Tstorm wrote:SOE could certainly do a better job with communicating, but I'm not sure it's safe to say SOE is ignoring Wardens. I know if I was a developer, I'd be scared silly to post in this forum for fear of being jumped by the angry mob. Developers lurk far more than post! Please look at the thread where Lockeye posted his intent to implement some changes. Nothing, but grateful, happy responses. (Until we saw what he implemented...) I have seen some posts on this forum containing constructive data and one begins to wonder if enough data has been given, if we're off in some assumptions, of if changes are already planned. We've been giving lots of data ever since beta. While it's difficult to believe we haven't given enough numbers yet, fine. Let someone come in and tell us its not enough yet. We'll be happy to get more if they need it -- they just need to ask. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time. No one is asking for class changes overnight. What we do want is someone to publically recognize the problem and at least tell us they're looking at solutions. Either that or tell us they need more data, or that they're not planning any changes. Lets face it, this game is a huge time investment for many of us and we want to know if we're wasting our time or not. At least let us make informed choices. Right now we can't do that because we have no information on fate of the class.

Kyralis · 10-18-2005, 02:18 AM

Tstorm wrote:It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time.

I dont' believe that beating up on Raijin is going to help much either, but that doesn't change the fact that we swallowed "be patient" for over two months (counting being ignored in beta). This isn't overnight anymore; this is two months of being told that nothing is wrong. We have provided data. Lots and lots of data, in fact- see my consolidated thread for much of it, and if you can think of any data that has not been provided, please provide me with it so I can edit it in. Warden unbalancing is a bug. In every other software product that I pay for, if I find a bug in the software, I expect a useful response from the publisher- normally within 24-48 hours. SOE apparently doesn't feel the need to provide such, and therefore I feel that we have a right to a certain amount of annoyance and upsetment. Certainly we should keep things civil, but that doesn't meant that we cannot voice our complaints. Linking hands and singing happy songs isn't going to get us anywhere.

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 02:33 AM

Since I've stepped in here I've tried to give as much attention as possible to community needs. Lets keep the constructive ideas and posts going, I'm doing what I can to help facitilitate this but it does take the community to buy into it.

I understand how frustrating things can be when your at a position that your at, and you want to see some "love" for your class. I'm doing what I can with what the community has given so far. Specifically I have been taking down information and formatting ideas.

Sure you want to be vocal about your displeasure and you have every right to be, however we need it to be in an appropriate way. It's been said before, sure but it needs to continue.

Again I'm doing everything in my power to be an advocate for YOUR needs, so please do have some faith that we're at the very least looking at your position.

Thanks.

Tstorm · 10-18-2005, 02:45 AM

Caerwyn wrote:Certainly we should keep things civil, but that doesn't meant that we cannot voice our complaints. Linking hands and singing happy songs isn't going to get us anywhere.

Very true. I hope noone took my previous comments to imply that we should all just don our Happy Helmets (Ren & Stimpy fans may remember this) and pretend we're all insanely happy. :smileyhappy:I will add that I have a Warden character myself and I'm not ready to start sticking voodoo dolls of developers with pins, selling Moorgard dart boards on Ebay, or advocating a public hanging of any red-name foolish enough to come close to me. I think there are people posting here that are pretty fed up, but there are others that are enjoying the game as-is or are otherwise able to continue looking to the horizon for improvements.Clearly, little I say is going to change the opinion of those that are fed up but I think if you toned down things a bit you'd find the developers more engaging as well as finding yourself a bit happier. I certainly have my EQ2 pet peeves, but overall I find it an innovative and fun game to play that continues to capture my imagination (and free time) so long after the release of the original EverQuest. SOE is certainly doing something right. :smileyhappy:

Knarfst · 10-18-2005, 02:50 AM

Tstorm wrote:
Venting now and then certainly happens and I don't see any red-names trigger happy to lock posts, nor do I see ultra strict enforcement of the Rules of Conduct. Raijinn Thunderguard seems to be friendly and engaging, and he seems to lock posts only when he has to. Note that he's trying to let this thread continue.

I do think some of the drama on the Warden Forum has gotten a bit out of hand and I'm glad to see Raijinn stepping in and asking everyone to tone it down a notch or two. There is a way of making SOE aware of issues and the footstomping and ranting isn't the way to get it done.

SOE could certainly do a better job with communicating, but I'm not sure it's safe to say SOE is ignoring Wardens. I know if I was a developer, I'd be scared silly to post in this forum for fear of being jumped by the angry mob. Developers lurk far more than post! I have seen some posts on this forum containing constructive data and one begins to wonder if enough data has been given, if we're off in some assumptions, of if changes are already planned.

It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time.

I dont agree with this at all. A lot of threads have been locked simply because they were asking for SOE to respond to their paying customers. Either they think wardens or broken or not. All that was asked is for them to share that thought with us. I have given up on wardens being fixed. In fact this is probably my last message as my account expires tomorrow. But if anyone is out of line on these boards it is SOE.

What SOE is doing is despicable. They know good and well that a lot of wardens would cancel immediately if they came out and said they don't plan on making any changes to the class. I believe they don't plan on doing anything to fix wardens. Why would I say that? Because if they did plan on fixing wardens they would be on these boards telling us that. It would save them a lot of money on cancelled subscriptions. So knowing good and well they arent going to make any changes they remain quiet and hope they get a few extra months of subcription fees out of the wardens that are eternally optimistic. That to me is dishonest.

Those wardens that havent cancelled yet and remain optimistic that SOE will fix their class, I admire your optimism. But unfortunately I think you are just setting yourself for a letdown.

Knarf

56 Warden (Cancelled)

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 03:02 AM

Knarfster,

I'm sorry to see you leave the game.

I am however a bit confused as to what you would feel is out of line or even despicable as I've been as clear and upfront as possible regarding not only the Wardens but the other classes and anything pretty much on the forums.

Things will always be looked into and weighed for validity, and I for one am an advocate for your issues so I will continue doing so.

Riverstone · 10-18-2005, 03:06 AM

Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

Since I've stepped in here I've tried to give as much attention as possible to community needs. Lets keep the constructive ideas and posts going, I'm doing what I can to help facitilitate this but it does take the community to buy into it.

I understand how frustrating things can be when your at a position that your at, and you want to see some "love" for your class. I'm doing what I can with what the community has given so far. Specifically I have been taking down information and formatting ideas.

Sure you want to be vocal about your displeasure and you have every right to be, however we need it to be in an appropriate way. It's been said before, sure but it needs to continue.

Again I'm doing everything in my power to be an advocate for YOUR needs, so please do have some faith that we're at the very least looking at your position.

Thanks.

Raijinn, I'm sure most of the Wardens that read these forums would rather have you with us than against us. It's some small consolation that someone from SOE has had the decency to at least make their presence known here and is actually reading the constructive suggestions posited by several knowledgeable Wardens. That being said, could you please clarify what you meant when you said 'we're at the very least looking at your position'? Does 'we' mean you and the developers or are you just using the royal 'we', meaning no developer has given an indication one way or the other about the concerns addressed here?

Knarfst · 10-18-2005, 03:13 AM

Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

Knarfster,

I'm sorry to see you leave the game.

I am however a bit confused as to what you would feel is out of line or even despicable as I've been as clear and upfront as possible regarding not only the Wardens but the other classes and anything pretty much on the forums.

Things will always be looked into and weighed for validity, and I for one am an advocate for your issues so I will continue doing so.

I think it is out of line to knowingly withhold information from your customers in hopes of making money off them. I am of the opinion that SOE does not plan to do anything about the broken warden class. So why wouldnt they tell us that? Because people would cancel and it would cost them money.

If they planned on fixing wardens they wouldve posted it. They posted that they were looking into coercers charm, the guardian class, assassins etc. But nothing on wardens. If they dont plan on making changes they need to be honest about it. Rather then have people waste time compiling lists of our problems and spending money on a game they would not be spending money on if they had that information.

I havent played my alts since the expansion came out. But I have a 35 coercer and a 33 assassin as well as my 56 warden. Talk about hitting the trifecta of broken classes. I should get a prize. Maybe a plaque from SOE saying congratulations to the dumbest customer we have. He continued to pay for the game despite playing 3 screwed up classes.

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 03:33 AM

Knarfster,

I do think that every class will be looked at so I wouldn't rule out anything. I've been looking over the situation as best that I can in order to gather information to convey your concerns.

Riverstone,

Myself, BG, and I believe MG has looked over some of these issues as well. It's not appropriate at this time to go pointing fingers and asking for changes immediately, let me get all the information and concerns together and see what we can come up with.

Thanks!

Knarfst · 10-18-2005, 03:47 AM

Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

Knarfster,

I do think that every class will be looked at so I wouldn't rule out anything. I've been looking over the situation as best that I can in order to gather information to convey your concerns.

SOE has done a poor job of convincing me of that. You know what might have convinced me of that? Them posting on the boards and communicating that. At this point though it wouldnt make a lot of difference to me. A day late and a dollar short. But I am sure that their are people on these boards that it might still make a difference too.

Nothing personal against you but you saying you think that every class will be looked at doesnt leave me with the feeling that any class will be looked at. It actually does the opposite. It sounds like you dont know, which tends to make SOE look a bit disorganized. How does the one person responsible for communicating witth customer not know what is happening?

You think a politician would send out a press secretary to communicate to his/her constituents but not tell him what to say? "I think my boss might support Harriet Miers, cant be sure though we never really discussed it." What would be the perception of that politician? a buffoon? Because that is my perception of SOE.

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 03:56 AM

Knarfster,

From my understanding all classes are always going to be looked at by need and based upon feedback and the like things can change.

Also as opposed to being over critical you can also contribute to the solution by posting creative ideas on how you would like to see things change.

Thanks

Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 10-17-2005 04:58 PM

Riverstone · 10-18-2005, 04:12 AM

Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

Knarfster,

I do think that every class will be looked at so I wouldn't rule out anything. I've been looking over the situation as best that I can in order to gather information to convey your concerns.

Riverstone,

Myself, BG, and I believe MG has looked over some of these issues as well. It's not appropriate at this time to go pointing fingers and asking for changes immediately, let me get all the information and concerns together and see what we can come up with.

Thanks!

Appreciate the fast response Raij. I have to respectfully disagree though with the statement that it's not appropriate to ask for changes. This isn't a knee jerk reaction...many of us had concerns about the direction this class would go before any of the changes even went to Beta. All through testing, most of the Wardens in Beta expressed concerns, posted problems, offered solutions which went completely unheeded. Now, months after the fact, we're no further along than we had been and, except for your fact finding posts, no one in a position to actually effect change for this class has made much of a visible effort to communicate with their customers.

To expedite this process, what else can we provide you with to make your job easier and help push this thing along at a more satisfactory pace? I'm sure you realize this can't be shelved indefinitely.

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 04:18 AM

Riverstone,

It's completely understandable, and I can relate to how your feeling as I've been through my share of class changes. The main situation here is I've seen many discussions on the Warden forum degrade into mud slinging and flaming and it gets ugly fast.

I know you all care about the game and I'm glad to be of service to help facilitate what your needs are but the flames and mud slinging has to stop.

Something that the Guardian's have done which I have been able to use to help address their issues is start a good forum thread (no flames) http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=22288. If flames pop up on that thread it's reported and I address it so If that is something that can be accomplished on this forum I'd more than happily sticky that post and help YOU get the ball rolling.

Thank you.

Sorano · 10-18-2005, 05:13 AM

Raijinn, we do have a similar thread right here on these forums.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=9712

The first post by Caerwyn pretty much covers it all, but to summarise: Wardens still lack burst healing capability, we bring no buffs to the raid table now that the stun on duststorm no longer effects epics, and our marquee spells are broken.

More in depth discussion of these problems can all be found in the thread linked above, and I sincerely hope you manage to bring these points to the attention of the devs working on the combat spells.

Naithik · 10-18-2005, 06:42 AM

like sorano said, we have a post with all the details you need and all our solutions. It has been posted once, contains everything needed. We are not going to post another similar thread, because it would be pointless. So of course the only threads you see are threads made by angry wardens who feel like they are being ignored. You want to stop all the flames? It's simple, really. Have a dev, one who has authority to change our class, come in here, and discuss with us. Not just make a post without saying much (although that would be better than nothing). Just have a dev, spend 5 times 5 minutes per day, to read the thread we made about what we think should be changed, give us feedback, tell us what will be made, what won't be, and why. We're not asking for a miracle or anything. We, as customers, simply want to discuss the terms of our contract (aka how the game is designed) with a designer.

5 X 5mins a day, thats 25 mins. Less than 10 bucks per day if you consider you pay the devs 20$ / h. Doing so until the class is fixed, would keep a lot of wardens from cancelling their accounts, telling everyone eq2 is poorly designed, and would probably save SOE a lot of money. It would also save a lot of frustration to any warden posting here, as well as yourself raijinn.

Eileah · 10-18-2005, 07:35 AM

OMG...

Am I the only one who thinks that the ONE person who asked us to make posts about our issues and possible solutions should have at least READ the posts in this forum and not just now learn about them?

How can he not know about Caer's post, doesn't he ever read anything that he isn't going to lock around here?

Oh yeah, feel the love, feel the sincere warmth and honesty around here.....

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 08:10 AM

I never said I didn't see that thread. I was making the suggestion on what should be done for those who wanted to be more vocal about the situation.

Oh, and the rumor mill has it there may very well be some changes for Wardens in the near future. :smileywink:

Naithik · 10-18-2005, 08:48 AM

If you speak the truth raijinn, you deserve a big wet puppy lickin. I am most happy to finally hear something like that.

Although if it is false, and only a trick to keep us quiet and gain more time, I swear I am cancelling my account.

Raijinn · 10-18-2005, 09:34 AM

Naithik,

My recommendation would be to look at the Test server in the near future from what I hear.

DresdenMalicaster · 10-18-2005, 10:07 AM

Please let these changes be worthy of the excitement I feel regarding them,

xxFlukexx · 10-18-2005, 10:21 AM

No, Raijinn Thunderguard has been doing a great job in locking the useless posts and the troll posts. The constructive posts are all open, look at the first few pages of these boards yourself.

However, Naithik is just mad that his thread, http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=9646 got locked. Your thread was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], asking the brand new community rep to do some coding and fix the warden like he has a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing magic wand.

Even you commented about how about the locking of threads was for the best, but the second he locks YOUR thread, oh no that thread is SACRED, how DARE he close YOUR post.

As for the post made by the person leaving, I personally hate those posts, who cares if someone is leaving, tell your guild, tell your friends online, tell your server board page, but the warden class? Bah, don't bother us, especially when you don't have anything to add other than you hated LU#13, that post could easily have turned into a lot of non-constructive [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing so he just locked it.

10-18-2005, 01:27 AM	#2
Eileah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 352	IBTL!!!! Funny I was posting on the other recently locked thread about this very subject and found out it was locked when I clicked post lol I think we got the message, no one has the cohones to come out and SAY for Wardens to get over it and move on, so they keep locking and nerfing, locking and nerfing... What "could" it all mean /ponder I don't like being told to think happy thoughts about people who have ruined my class, I don't like being led down the garden path to nowhere, meanwhile having this vision of "someone who is in development" watching this forum and laughing at us cause we just don't "get the hint"..... I'm tired of being told to think happy happy thoughts and maybe the world will be a better place for you and me..... I'm tired of being screwed and told to be thankful for the screwing.... Leave us alone to wallow in our misery together, cause right now we are all we've got, no one else cares. Personally all the locking and attention from the mod has done nothing but make me more angry, if they can't be of help then just leave us alone to our forum. You can't force people to be happy, no matter how many threads are locked or edited you are still just hiding the truth, not making the situation any better for anyone. __________________ Eileah ToxxRoxx

10-18-2005, 01:28 AM	#3
Light_Journey Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 35	Naithik wrote: eh yeah, seems like any thread were we complain about our situation gets locked... so mmm what are we supposed to post, except the fact that we are happy with being crappy healers? Message Edited by Naithik on 10-17-200502:15 PM Ironically, this thread will likely be locked. I would assume that any post that does not contain constructive feedback regarding the warden class (good or bad) will get locked. shrug I also suspect as Raijinn get's more comfortable with his job as a Mod, he'll relax on the strict interpretation of the rules of conduct, and let some of the harmless bantering go, while keeping a firmer grip on the more serious stuff (the things that should be locked). The Warden community is a littler bitter and volatile now (as are guardians and many other classes).... so I'd suspect he's being stricter than he might under normal conditions (if there is such a thing as normal) to keep the flame wars under control. Just my take on it. __________________ -- Fall The Emerald House

10-18-2005, 01:36 AM	#4
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	I'm all for you all voicing your concerns, try to do it constructively providing issues and solutions to the issues that your seeing. I really don't mind just don't let it degenerate into a hate mongering mud slinging towards anyone. Thanks! __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 01:39 AM	#5
Aaeamdar Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 150	The last several threads you have locked had no "hate mongering" in them at all. You locked one Warden's goodbye thread that had nothing other than "sorry to see you go, but I understand" replies. Nothing but support and understanding in that one. You locked it anyway. The other one you locked recently was a request that a Dev, not a board mod, come and post. Again, that thread had nothing but polite and understanding replies. No flames. No "hate mongering." You locked it anyway. Edit: And now I see that my thread was simply deleted. :/ I guess you will delete this one soon too. Message Edited by Aaeamdar on 10-17-2005 02:41 PM __________________ "I am a leaf on the wind." -Wash

10-18-2005, 01:41 AM	#6
Urkra General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I'm all for you all voicing your concerns, try to do it constructively providing issues and solutions to the issues that your seeing. I really don't mind just don't let it degenerate into a hate mongering mud slinging towards anyone. Thanks! Raijinn, with al the due respect, this forum is full of constructive threads highlighting concerns and providing insight and solutions. We really don't have to bring anymore solutions to SOE attention on here, we just need to be fixed, how loud and for how long should we scream before, being noticed ? __________________ Urkraft of the Shard - Guk 60 Warden Divine Legend

10-18-2005, 01:14 AM	#1
Naithik Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 130	eh yeah, seems like any thread were we complain about our situation gets locked... so mmm what are we supposed to post, except the fact that we are happy with being crappy healers? Message Edited by Naithik on 10-17-2005 02:15 PM

10-18-2005, 01:43 AM	#7
pedigr General Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 233	I tell you what Raijinn - you tell us what you think is constructive posting and I'll find you a thread where its been done, ignore or locked. So far, constructive posting has got us exactly nowhere. We asked for dev input... nope, you cant have that.... Is collective agreement in a thread considered a rant? Message Edited by pedigree on 10-17-2005 02:44 PM __________________ 80 Warden \| 80 Brigand \| 80 Illusionist

10-18-2005, 01:44 AM	#8
Maelakai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 124	Urkraft wrote: Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I'm all for you all voicing your concerns, try to do it constructively providing issues and solutions to the issues that your seeing. I really don't mind just don't let it degenerate into a hate mongering mud slinging towards anyone. Thanks! Raijinn, with al the due respect, this forum is full of constructive threads highlighting concerns and providing insight and solutions. We really don't have to bring anymore solutions to SOE attention on here, we just need to be fixed, how loud and for how long should we scream before, being noticed ? /sign We can be patient, but we need to know that our concerns are being looked at. With all due respect to Raijinn, he is not a developer, and a developers comments are what we need right now. __________________ http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3746/humper2iy8.gif

10-18-2005, 02:01 AM	#9
Tstorm Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 314	Venting now and then certainly happens and I don't see any red-names trigger happy to lock posts, nor do I see ultra strict enforcement of the Rules of Conduct. Raijinn Thunderguard seems to be friendly and engaging, and he seems to lock posts only when he has to. Note that he's trying to let this thread continue.I do think some of the drama on the Warden Forum has gotten a bit out of hand and I'm glad to see Raijinn stepping in and asking everyone to tone it down a notch or two. There is a way of making SOE aware of issues and the footstomping and ranting isn't the way to get it done.SOE could certainly do a better job with communicating, but I'm not sure it's safe to say SOE is ignoring Wardens. I know if I was a developer, I'd be scared silly to post in this forum for fear of being jumped by the angry mob. Developers lurk far more than post! I have seen some posts on this forum containing constructive data and one begins to wonder if enough data has been given, if we're off in some assumptions, of if changes are already planned.It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time. __________________

10-18-2005, 02:10 AM	#10
Mor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 344	Tstorm wrote:SOE could certainly do a better job with communicating, but I'm not sure it's safe to say SOE is ignoring Wardens. I know if I was a developer, I'd be scared silly to post in this forum for fear of being jumped by the angry mob. Developers lurk far more than post! Please look at the thread where Lockeye posted his intent to implement some changes. Nothing, but grateful, happy responses. (Until we saw what he implemented...) I have seen some posts on this forum containing constructive data and one begins to wonder if enough data has been given, if we're off in some assumptions, of if changes are already planned. We've been giving lots of data ever since beta. While it's difficult to believe we haven't given enough numbers yet, fine. Let someone come in and tell us its not enough yet. We'll be happy to get more if they need it -- they just need to ask. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time. No one is asking for class changes overnight. What we do want is someone to publically recognize the problem and at least tell us they're looking at solutions. Either that or tell us they need more data, or that they're not planning any changes. Lets face it, this game is a huge time investment for many of us and we want to know if we're wasting our time or not. At least let us make informed choices. Right now we can't do that because we have no information on fate of the class.

10-18-2005, 02:18 AM	#11
Kyralis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 637	Tstorm wrote:It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time. I dont' believe that beating up on Raijin is going to help much either, but that doesn't change the fact that we swallowed "be patient" for over two months (counting being ignored in beta). This isn't overnight anymore; this is two months of being told that nothing is wrong. We have provided data. Lots and lots of data, in fact- see my consolidated thread for much of it, and if you can think of any data that has not been provided, please provide me with it so I can edit it in. Warden unbalancing is a bug. In every other software product that I pay for, if I find a bug in the software, I expect a useful response from the publisher- normally within 24-48 hours. SOE apparently doesn't feel the need to provide such, and therefore I feel that we have a right to a certain amount of annoyance and upsetment. Certainly we should keep things civil, but that doesn't meant that we cannot voice our complaints. Linking hands and singing happy songs isn't going to get us anywhere. __________________ -- Kyralis Warden of Nagafen

10-18-2005, 02:33 AM	#12
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Since I've stepped in here I've tried to give as much attention as possible to community needs. Lets keep the constructive ideas and posts going, I'm doing what I can to help facitilitate this but it does take the community to buy into it. I understand how frustrating things can be when your at a position that your at, and you want to see some "love" for your class. I'm doing what I can with what the community has given so far. Specifically I have been taking down information and formatting ideas. Sure you want to be vocal about your displeasure and you have every right to be, however we need it to be in an appropriate way. It's been said before, sure but it needs to continue. Again I'm doing everything in my power to be an advocate for YOUR needs, so please do have some faith that we're at the very least looking at your position. Thanks. __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 02:45 AM	#13
Tstorm Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 314	Caerwyn wrote:Certainly we should keep things civil, but that doesn't meant that we cannot voice our complaints. Linking hands and singing happy songs isn't going to get us anywhere. Very true. I hope noone took my previous comments to imply that we should all just don our Happy Helmets (Ren & Stimpy fans may remember this) and pretend we're all insanely happy. :smileyhappy:I will add that I have a Warden character myself and I'm not ready to start sticking voodoo dolls of developers with pins, selling Moorgard dart boards on Ebay, or advocating a public hanging of any red-name foolish enough to come close to me. I think there are people posting here that are pretty fed up, but there are others that are enjoying the game as-is or are otherwise able to continue looking to the horizon for improvements.Clearly, little I say is going to change the opinion of those that are fed up but I think if you toned down things a bit you'd find the developers more engaging as well as finding yourself a bit happier. I certainly have my EQ2 pet peeves, but overall I find it an innovative and fun game to play that continues to capture my imagination (and free time) so long after the release of the original EverQuest. SOE is certainly doing something right. :smileyhappy: __________________

10-18-2005, 02:50 AM	#14
Knarfst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	Tstorm wrote: Venting now and then certainly happens and I don't see any red-names trigger happy to lock posts, nor do I see ultra strict enforcement of the Rules of Conduct. Raijinn Thunderguard seems to be friendly and engaging, and he seems to lock posts only when he has to. Note that he's trying to let this thread continue. I do think some of the drama on the Warden Forum has gotten a bit out of hand and I'm glad to see Raijinn stepping in and asking everyone to tone it down a notch or two. There is a way of making SOE aware of issues and the footstomping and ranting isn't the way to get it done. SOE could certainly do a better job with communicating, but I'm not sure it's safe to say SOE is ignoring Wardens. I know if I was a developer, I'd be scared silly to post in this forum for fear of being jumped by the angry mob. Developers lurk far more than post! I have seen some posts on this forum containing constructive data and one begins to wonder if enough data has been given, if we're off in some assumptions, of if changes are already planned. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and use your keyboard as a weapon, but I urge folks to take a deep breath and see what happens. Class changes don't happen overnight and beating up Raijinn for doing his job isn't going to help. "Be patient" isn't an easy pill to swallow, but if you continue to provide constructive data so that SOE can see your points it's likely you will see changes over time. I dont agree with this at all. A lot of threads have been locked simply because they were asking for SOE to respond to their paying customers. Either they think wardens or broken or not. All that was asked is for them to share that thought with us. I have given up on wardens being fixed. In fact this is probably my last message as my account expires tomorrow. But if anyone is out of line on these boards it is SOE. What SOE is doing is despicable. They know good and well that a lot of wardens would cancel immediately if they came out and said they don't plan on making any changes to the class. I believe they don't plan on doing anything to fix wardens. Why would I say that? Because if they did plan on fixing wardens they would be on these boards telling us that. It would save them a lot of money on cancelled subscriptions. So knowing good and well they arent going to make any changes they remain quiet and hope they get a few extra months of subcription fees out of the wardens that are eternally optimistic. That to me is dishonest. Those wardens that havent cancelled yet and remain optimistic that SOE will fix their class, I admire your optimism. But unfortunately I think you are just setting yourself for a letdown. Knarf 56 Warden (Cancelled)

10-18-2005, 03:02 AM	#15
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Knarfster, I'm sorry to see you leave the game. I am however a bit confused as to what you would feel is out of line or even despicable as I've been as clear and upfront as possible regarding not only the Wardens but the other classes and anything pretty much on the forums. Things will always be looked into and weighed for validity, and I for one am an advocate for your issues so I will continue doing so. __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 03:06 AM	#16
Riverstone Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 23	Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: Since I've stepped in here I've tried to give as much attention as possible to community needs. Lets keep the constructive ideas and posts going, I'm doing what I can to help facitilitate this but it does take the community to buy into it. I understand how frustrating things can be when your at a position that your at, and you want to see some "love" for your class. I'm doing what I can with what the community has given so far. Specifically I have been taking down information and formatting ideas. Sure you want to be vocal about your displeasure and you have every right to be, however we need it to be in an appropriate way. It's been said before, sure but it needs to continue. Again I'm doing everything in my power to be an advocate for YOUR needs, so please do have some faith that we're at the very least looking at your position. Thanks. Raijinn, I'm sure most of the Wardens that read these forums would rather have you with us than against us. It's some small consolation that someone from SOE has had the decency to at least make their presence known here and is actually reading the constructive suggestions posited by several knowledgeable Wardens. That being said, could you please clarify what you meant when you said 'we're at the very least looking at your position'? Does 'we' mean you and the developers or are you just using the royal 'we', meaning no developer has given an indication one way or the other about the concerns addressed here?

10-18-2005, 03:13 AM	#17
Knarfst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: Knarfster, I'm sorry to see you leave the game. I am however a bit confused as to what you would feel is out of line or even despicable as I've been as clear and upfront as possible regarding not only the Wardens but the other classes and anything pretty much on the forums. Things will always be looked into and weighed for validity, and I for one am an advocate for your issues so I will continue doing so. I think it is out of line to knowingly withhold information from your customers in hopes of making money off them. I am of the opinion that SOE does not plan to do anything about the broken warden class. So why wouldnt they tell us that? Because people would cancel and it would cost them money. If they planned on fixing wardens they wouldve posted it. They posted that they were looking into coercers charm, the guardian class, assassins etc. But nothing on wardens. If they dont plan on making changes they need to be honest about it. Rather then have people waste time compiling lists of our problems and spending money on a game they would not be spending money on if they had that information. I havent played my alts since the expansion came out. But I have a 35 coercer and a 33 assassin as well as my 56 warden. Talk about hitting the trifecta of broken classes. I should get a prize. Maybe a plaque from SOE saying congratulations to the dumbest customer we have. He continued to pay for the game despite playing 3 screwed up classes.

10-18-2005, 03:33 AM	#18
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Knarfster, I do think that every class will be looked at so I wouldn't rule out anything. I've been looking over the situation as best that I can in order to gather information to convey your concerns. Riverstone, Myself, BG, and I believe MG has looked over some of these issues as well. It's not appropriate at this time to go pointing fingers and asking for changes immediately, let me get all the information and concerns together and see what we can come up with. Thanks! __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 03:47 AM	#19
Knarfst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: Knarfster, I do think that every class will be looked at so I wouldn't rule out anything. I've been looking over the situation as best that I can in order to gather information to convey your concerns. SOE has done a poor job of convincing me of that. You know what might have convinced me of that? Them posting on the boards and communicating that. At this point though it wouldnt make a lot of difference to me. A day late and a dollar short. But I am sure that their are people on these boards that it might still make a difference too. Nothing personal against you but you saying you think that every class will be looked at doesnt leave me with the feeling that any class will be looked at. It actually does the opposite. It sounds like you dont know, which tends to make SOE look a bit disorganized. How does the one person responsible for communicating witth customer not know what is happening? You think a politician would send out a press secretary to communicate to his/her constituents but not tell him what to say? "I think my boss might support Harriet Miers, cant be sure though we never really discussed it." What would be the perception of that politician? a buffoon? Because that is my perception of SOE.

10-18-2005, 03:56 AM	#20
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Knarfster, From my understanding all classes are always going to be looked at by need and based upon feedback and the like things can change. Also as opposed to being over critical you can also contribute to the solution by posting creative ideas on how you would like to see things change. Thanks Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 10-17-2005 04:58 PM __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 04:12 AM	#21
Riverstone Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 23	Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: Knarfster, I do think that every class will be looked at so I wouldn't rule out anything. I've been looking over the situation as best that I can in order to gather information to convey your concerns. Riverstone, Myself, BG, and I believe MG has looked over some of these issues as well. It's not appropriate at this time to go pointing fingers and asking for changes immediately, let me get all the information and concerns together and see what we can come up with. Thanks! Appreciate the fast response Raij. I have to respectfully disagree though with the statement that it's not appropriate to ask for changes. This isn't a knee jerk reaction...many of us had concerns about the direction this class would go before any of the changes even went to Beta. All through testing, most of the Wardens in Beta expressed concerns, posted problems, offered solutions which went completely unheeded. Now, months after the fact, we're no further along than we had been and, except for your fact finding posts, no one in a position to actually effect change for this class has made much of a visible effort to communicate with their customers. To expedite this process, what else can we provide you with to make your job easier and help push this thing along at a more satisfactory pace? I'm sure you realize this can't be shelved indefinitely.

10-18-2005, 04:18 AM	#22
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Riverstone, It's completely understandable, and I can relate to how your feeling as I've been through my share of class changes. The main situation here is I've seen many discussions on the Warden forum degrade into mud slinging and flaming and it gets ugly fast. I know you all care about the game and I'm glad to be of service to help facilitate what your needs are but the flames and mud slinging has to stop. Something that the Guardian's have done which I have been able to use to help address their issues is start a good forum thread (no flames) http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=22288. If flames pop up on that thread it's reported and I address it so If that is something that can be accomplished on this forum I'd more than happily sticky that post and help YOU get the ball rolling. Thank you. __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 05:13 AM	#23
Sorano Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 505	Raijinn, we do have a similar thread right here on these forums. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=9712 The first post by Caerwyn pretty much covers it all, but to summarise: Wardens still lack burst healing capability, we bring no buffs to the raid table now that the stun on duststorm no longer effects epics, and our marquee spells are broken. More in depth discussion of these problems can all be found in the thread linked above, and I sincerely hope you manage to bring these points to the attention of the devs working on the combat spells. __________________

10-18-2005, 06:42 AM	#24
Naithik Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 130	like sorano said, we have a post with all the details you need and all our solutions. It has been posted once, contains everything needed. We are not going to post another similar thread, because it would be pointless. So of course the only threads you see are threads made by angry wardens who feel like they are being ignored. You want to stop all the flames? It's simple, really. Have a dev, one who has authority to change our class, come in here, and discuss with us. Not just make a post without saying much (although that would be better than nothing). Just have a dev, spend 5 times 5 minutes per day, to read the thread we made about what we think should be changed, give us feedback, tell us what will be made, what won't be, and why. We're not asking for a miracle or anything. We, as customers, simply want to discuss the terms of our contract (aka how the game is designed) with a designer. 5 X 5mins a day, thats 25 mins. Less than 10 bucks per day if you consider you pay the devs 20$ / h. Doing so until the class is fixed, would keep a lot of wardens from cancelling their accounts, telling everyone eq2 is poorly designed, and would probably save SOE a lot of money. It would also save a lot of frustration to any warden posting here, as well as yourself raijinn.

10-18-2005, 07:35 AM	#25
Eileah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 352	OMG... Am I the only one who thinks that the ONE person who asked us to make posts about our issues and possible solutions should have at least READ the posts in this forum and not just now learn about them? How can he not know about Caer's post, doesn't he ever read anything that he isn't going to lock around here? Oh yeah, feel the love, feel the sincere warmth and honesty around here..... __________________ Eileah ToxxRoxx

10-18-2005, 08:10 AM	#26
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	I never said I didn't see that thread. I was making the suggestion on what should be done for those who wanted to be more vocal about the situation. Oh, and the rumor mill has it there may very well be some changes for Wardens in the near future. :smileywink: __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 08:48 AM	#27
Naithik Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 130	If you speak the truth raijinn, you deserve a big wet puppy lickin. I am most happy to finally hear something like that. Although if it is false, and only a trick to keep us quiet and gain more time, I swear I am cancelling my account.

10-18-2005, 09:34 AM	#28
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Naithik, My recommendation would be to look at the Test server in the near future from what I hear. __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki

10-18-2005, 10:07 AM	#29
DresdenMalicaster Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 160	Please let these changes be worthy of the excitement I feel regarding them, __________________

10-18-2005, 10:21 AM	#30
xxFlukexx Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 34	No, Raijinn Thunderguard has been doing a great job in locking the useless posts and the troll posts. The constructive posts are all open, look at the first few pages of these boards yourself. However, Naithik is just mad that his thread, http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=9646 got locked. Your thread was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], asking the brand new community rep to do some coding and fix the warden like he has a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing magic wand. Even you commented about how about the locking of threads was for the best, but the second he locks YOUR thread, oh no that thread is SACRED, how DARE he close YOUR post. As for the post made by the person leaving, I personally hate those posts, who cares if someone is leaving, tell your guild, tell your friends online, tell your server board page, but the warden class? Bah, don't bother us, especially when you don't have anything to add other than you hated LU#13, that post could easily have turned into a lot of non-constructive [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing so he just locked it.