They want numbers ? try these

davorak · 10-13-2005, 07:05 PM

grp heal small heal big heal

templar 726 - 888 649 - 794 1002 - 1284

inquister 734 -897 657-803 1166-1425

defiler 726-888 649-774 1199-1465

mytic 734-897 657-803 1166-1425

fury 588-718 525-642 932-1140

warden 465-568 400-489 639-781

ok these are the rough numbers of the main spell lines for healers classes at T6. the numbers are rough becuase some are app2 and some are master but in any event I believe it paints the picture pretty clear. Hell yes i left off the worthless HOT addition to wardens main heals as they are worthless and need to be striped. Leave us the regens like chlro... and HG. Those are fine and balanced to the other healers. Take off the regen on the the 3 main heals like every other healer and bump the numbers into there ranges. That's really very cut dry and simple. You want balance lets have it.

Kyralis · 10-13-2005, 07:34 PM

I'm as big a proponent for balancing as anyone, but a list of numbers like this is reasonably useless. It says nothing about casting time, recasting time or HP/sec. For instance, with Wardens, you *must* include the first tick of the HoT on our direct heals when comparing them with a Templar. Why? Because that tick has gone off by the time the Templar heal lands due to the faster casting of our heals, which means that for the purposes of comparison the first tick and the initial heal happened simultaneously. From your chart you'd guess that Furies are horrible healers, but that's not the case- the furies are actually quite effective because of their fast cast and recast times. I want to see things fixed, but if we make inflammatory posts that disregard actual fact we're just going to get ignored. As we've actually shown elsewhere, our specialty heals are actually the main source of falling behind the other healers, especially with respect to sustained HP/sec and efficiency. Our DHs merely need to be shortened (3 and 6 seconds are the numbers we've been tossing around).

pedigr · 10-13-2005, 08:28 PM

Caerwyn wrote:you *must* include the first tick of the HoT on our direct heals when comparing them with a Templar. Why? Because that tick has gone off by the time the Templar heal lands due to the faster casting of our heals, which means that for the purposes of comparison the first tick and the initial heal happened simultaneously

Hes got a point, add 40-60 to the Warden figures. Still doesnt add up to much really SMILEY

Is anyone at SoE even concerned about the Warden at all? Thats what I want to know

myount · 10-13-2005, 10:42 PM

Hes got a point, add 40-60 to the Warden figures. Still doesnt add up to much really

Is anyone at SoE even concerned about the Warden at all? Thats what I want to know

They threw a band-aid at us with the tiny increase to heals. Granted, it helped, but not even close to fixing the problem. I am getting tired of even caring at this point. Just give wardens a nice heal like our counterparts get and that would stop burst damage problems. Get rid of our 52 spell and replace it with that.

Dont forget to fix our wolves to scale with our levels.

MaldekTM · 10-13-2005, 11:49 PM

I'm with Davorak on this one. These numbers might be 90% accurate or whatever, but it proves the point : We can't heal. That's the overall point. Not that we need a magical new speciality heal or any hooplah like that. Just boost our Direct Heals by getting rid of the useless secondary HoT and have a nice big initial blast. Is there any reason for us to heal less than a Fury? I thought Warden was the defensive druid, doesn't that mean we should be healing more than them?

I like the chart. It's clear and simple. We heal the least. People can argue that it's power-efficiency, but that doesn't matter to me. We heal the least. For a defensive druid, and for a healer to survive, we need to be able to heal LARGE AMOUNTS quickly, not piddle paddle around with this slow molasses secondary regen crap.

Devs: Boost our direct heal amounts. Scrap the HoT effect

I picked priest so I could heal. Not so I could heal a little bit now and a little bit later and a little bit more later still. I want to be proud of the green number that pops-up over the Tank's head. Right now, it's embarassing.

Kyralis · 10-14-2005, 12:07 AM

I don't disagree that our DHs need at least some of the regen shifted back into the instant component; you'll see that I mention that as being necessary in my problems/solutions thread. What I take issue with is the OP's inflammatory, misleading chart. I don't care about the size of green numbers. I care about one thing: Warden effectiveness. To achieve that, and most especially to get our point listened to, we need to provide information that is based on all of the facts, not just a convenient subset. If you complain to the developers saying "hey, my heals are tiny when I disregard the regen component!" they're going to come back and say "so don't disregard the regen component and you heal the same". That's not useful. What we need to do is show *why* the regen component is less useful than the instant heal component, and then how that unbalances the Warden class in relation to the other healing classes. The chart by the OP is like my example above in that it disregards an enormous number of factors that play into how well a priest performs in a variety of settings, and that narrowminded basis for complaint is what will get even a valid point ignored.

Spag · 10-14-2005, 12:25 AM

Very good point Caer.

While I don't believe our direct heals are the main problem, they do need to have a higher % of the total heal up front, and fully unload within a few seconds. A direct heal spread across 12 seconds is not direct.

The real issue is that we are relying too heavily on our direct heals to push up our HP/s. This is because the regen line does not scale, and our group regen is effectively useless. Cleric and Shaman classes can stack both their single target special and group special on a single target for an enormous amount of healing/warding, which leaves their direct heals available to either suppliment heal, or deal with adds. While they are doing this, we are chain casting our regen, and direct heals and still heal less that what they can do with their specials alone within the same time frame, but they would also be covered in case of adds, since their group specials are applied where needed. Even if 2 members of our group are taking damage, our group regen wastes 66% of its HP. Will get some real numbers on this shortly.

Spag · 10-14-2005, 01:04 AM

Ok so I logged in and dug up some numbers, here they are. All are from the T5 adept3 specials.

Templar
Greater intercession (40) Single Target
194-237 (4) upon attack
Crucial intercession (42) Group
207-253 (9) upon attack

Mystic
Ancestral Aegis (41) Single Target
800 pts
Umbral Ritual (42) Group
1546 pts

Warden
Chloroplast (40) Single Target
143-174 2 sec
Chlorostorm (42) Group
118-145 2 sec

Basically this is how it breaks down stacking specials alone, and taking the average heal amount in the range:

Templar 215.5+230 = 445.5 per hit
Mystic 2346 pts used as needed.
Warden 158.5+131.5 = 290 every 2 seconds

From parses I have seen mobs hit every 2 seconds or so on average, with auto attack + combat arts. If we say one hit on average every 2 seconds at 8 seconds in:

Templar would have healed for 1782

Mystic would have healed for 2346 as needed and can have recasted an additional 800 ward.

Wardens would have healed for 1160

Thats a 600 HP difference in just 8 seconds, just using specials when compared to the Templar, and half of what a Mystic can do.

This is basically a single mob situation, in situations with multiple mobs, the difference in healing grows substantially as the target is getting hit more often. Templar and Mystics can recast their single target special within 6 seconds. We have to wait double that amount as it will do no good to recast sooner. We start off below what the other classes can do, and since our HP/s cannot scale up we are left in the dust.

Message Edited by Spagma on 10-13-2005 05:10 PM

Kyralis · 10-14-2005, 01:31 AM

*Those* are the sorts of numbers that are useful. To put things in HP/sec terms: Even with only single target specialties, the Templar has an 8 second casting cycle. Assuming all 4 charges are used in 8 seconds, which is not at all unreasonable, the Templar can sustain 107.75 hp/second with single target reactive alone. The Mystic with a similar casting cycle can sustain 100 hp/second. The warden can sustain a measily 79.25. Please note that all of these have the same power cost and the same casting time. Adding in the group specialties thing get even more ridiculously out of line. The Warden maximum HP/second with single target + group speciality, on a single target, is 145 hp/sec. The Templar has a 20 second casting cycle on the group reactive, and can sustain 211.25 HP/sec on a single target (yes, that's % greater than a warden. Using only specialty + group specialty). The Mystic can sustain 177.3 with single target + group wards only. That's sustained. Of course, for the Warden sustained and burst are identical. For the Templar, burst is related solely to how fast hits come in- a bruiser mob doing a flury move could easily burn through the entire healing load of a group + single target reactive in seconds, and similarly burn through 2346 points of ward in moments. Yeah, we have a problem with burst healing.

pedigr · 10-14-2005, 04:09 AM

Excellent posts by both Spagma and Caer... Please SoE, these are actual figures, give or take a couple of useless percent. In the end, this is what you have done to the Wardens, greatly reduced our ability to play. Please fix it as a matter of urgency.

Arelore · 10-14-2005, 05:45 PM

I wonder how the numbers/data pans out for our buffs compared to other priests.

Message Edited by Arelore on 10-14-2005 10:07 AM

Ozzsm · 10-15-2005, 08:15 AM

Hang on hang on, let me roll around on the floor laughing for 20mins. A tamplar can't cycle his spells fast enough for those numbers to be even accurate, the reactives have 6second and 15 second timers plus cast time to consider. Since a mob can hit for EVER one of the hits in a round these figures are essentially irrelavent. You should really go back and look at just what spells a druid has at his disposal, since the cumlative healing output from druids 20 levels lower than my templar have greater healing potential that anything i can provide. This is essentially because 50% of my healing is based on the scounts in the group being able to hit the mob enough to proc heals. Most of a templars healing is based on random rolls. Its kind of scary when a druid 5 levels lower than me is prefered in an xp group to me becuase they heal more hp. You numbers clearly indicate teh opposite should be happening. There must be other contributing factors. You are comparing the mufflers of 3 diffrent cars to there top speed, when you should be considering the whole vehicle.

Valeda · 10-15-2005, 09:16 AM

Didnt read the whole post, I am not one for forums. Just wanted to interject a number I had pre-Dof on my main DH. (40 warden Oggok... Kity Sharpclaws)

The natures embrace I belive it is, (ive lost interest) pre-DOf healed for around 2,700 WITH dot. I know thats alot, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the changes have taken it to the extreme. It has lost its finess, it has lost its charm to me. Now all I can do is, know that im going to go try to find a group just to get my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked out there it seems. The mobs are so hard now.... The game to me has went from north to south, east to west since I have played it. I see alot of people ont hese forums that really seeem to think that keeping a posotive happy attitude and trying to ALWAYS, find the posotive, are the same people that just stick there heads in the sand when theyreally shouldnt....

Anyway, I have decided to quit, will check back for patch updates etc etc, but this games lost it magic for me ;( take care all.

Eileah · 10-15-2005, 10:24 AM

Ozzsmeg wrote:

Its kind of scary when a druid 5 levels lower than me is prefered in an xp group to me becuase they heal more hp. You numbers clearly indicate teh opposite should be happening. There must be other contributing factors.

Hmmm, I wonder what that factor could be /ponder

Kyralis · 10-15-2005, 12:02 PM

Ozzsmeg wrote:Hang on hang on, let me roll around on the floor laughing for 20mins. A tamplar can't cycle his spells fast enough for those numbers to be even accurate, the reactives have 6second and 15 second timers plus cast time to consider. Since a mob can hit for EVER one of the hits in a round these figures are essentially irrelavent. You should really go back and look at just what spells a druid has at his disposal, since the cumlative healing output from druids 20 levels lower than my templar have greater healing potential that anything i can provide. This is essentially because 50% of my healing is based on the scounts in the group being able to hit the mob enough to proc heals. Most of a templars healing is based on random rolls. Its kind of scary when a druid 5 levels lower than me is prefered in an xp group to me becuase they heal more hp. You numbers clearly indicate teh opposite should be happening. There must be other contributing factors. You are comparing the mufflers of 3 diffrent cars to there top speed, when you should be considering the whole vehicle.

Trust me, I know what spells a druid has at his disposal. I know what level I get them at, I know how much they heal for, I know the cast and recast timers. I use them daily. I also know how reactives work. I have played a level 50 of *every single healer class* thanks to the DoF beta. A cleric's reactive heal has a 2 second cast time (116 power for T5) and a 6 second recast, giving rise to a maximum of one cast of reactive every 8 seconds. As long as 8 hits arrive within that period, the full healing of a reactive can be assumed to be spread out as HP/sec over the course of that 8 seconds to calculate sustained HP/sec; it can also come in (effectively) instantly in response to simultaneous hits form multiple mobs or a flurry attack, responding immediately to damage. Druids have nothing remotely close, and our special has a 12 second recast- 50% longer, resulitng in only 66% of the sustained HP/sec as a reactive provides. If you're being outhealed by a lower level druid, you need to learn to play your class. Either that or you're referring to wardens pre-LU13, when we *did* have the largest single-target heals.

Shennr · 10-15-2005, 12:32 PM

** No personal attacks please.

Message Edited by Anterra on 01-25-200607:01 AM

Ozzsm · 10-15-2005, 01:59 PM

Rofl clearly you spend more time posting that you do playing. I have more than 100days as my templar and created him the day EQ2 was release. My lack of knowledge of this spell was simple related to that I was level 50 well before splitpaw and never even purchased it. Templar are having very huge troubles at the moment due to the long cast time on there spells with not what was promised for the longer cast times, that being bigger healing. Wardens on the other hard are healing tanks with little or no effort and I have not seen a single warden I have come across have trouble keeping a tank in green when I heave trouble keeping him above red for the same fight. If you believe this is a noob problem then clearly 12months of playing a templar, and more raids than I care to count, is less than what you have been playing a templar for, so feel free to flame me again. It is evident that ALL of the healing is well under what everyone feels that it should be, however it seems that complaing about your inability to use what your have to you best ability is a clear indicator that you want healing to be easy. You want an easy play a DPS class and beat the hell out of things, don't make stupid comments about a well experience person with more knowledge that you have clearly indicated you have. For the record, Single directed reactive for a templar is 4 times not 8 and the group reactive is way to long a cast time to be effective in combat, its not used by many.

Zel · 10-15-2005, 02:43 PM

OMG the nice Troll on the warden"s forum :

Ozzsmeg wrote:Rofl clearly you spend more time posting that you do playing.Templar are having very huge troubles at the moment due to the long cast time on there spells with not what was promised for the longer cast times, that being bigger healing. Wardens on the other hard are healing tanks with little or no effort and I have not seen a single warden I have come across have trouble keeping a tank in green when I heave trouble keeping him above red for the same fight.

You're wrong on all the line. Warden is probably the specialist of Heal Spamming about all healing class because our Heal line is inefficiency vs Burst/Pikes Damages.

Message Edited by Zelya on 10-15-2005 01:10 PM

Sorano · 10-15-2005, 05:57 PM

Ozzsmeg wrote:
For the record, Single directed reactive for a templar is 4 times not 8 and the group reactive is way to long a cast time to be effective in combat, its not used by many.

You Sir, do not know how to play your Templar. You can still cast your group reactive before a pull and not get aggro. Any Templar worth their salt does that now, and the fact that you think it's not used by many Templars speaks volumes about how much you know about the class. I think most Templars are not used to the fact that they lost their ability to jsut apply their reactives and go afk. You actually have to heal now. To borow a much used adage "LEARN HOW TO PLAY YOUR CLASS"

And stay out of the warden forums..

Ozzsm · 10-15-2005, 06:25 PM

Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. My 3 main heals at the moment are my 2 DH and my group heal (which I have to use to heal the tank, because both my DH can be down at the same time), I uses proc heals and debuffs to make up the missing healing, reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time. Templar would be unplay able without Glory of combat and mark of kings which are dependent on scouts hitting the mob and the tank being able to hit the mob a vaguly decent amount. I start a fight with both reactives up, which have the effect of taking the first round of burst damage on the tank, after that they become a IF I have time to cast them. I spend all my time in a fight cycling 3 spells I might get a stun in now and again, but on most tanks I have trouble keeping up with damage using DH, when my. Why would I use a spell that heals for 300hp each time the mob hits and the mob hits for 500hp when I can better spend my time casting a DH which heals 1000 instantly and then stun the next round while the spell refreshes? If your playing a templar with reactives your not killing what I consider a decent mob. Reactives are only usefull on mobs that are less than 2 levels higher than the tank and then I don't have to heal at all because mark of kings and glory of combat pick up the diffrence. There is a huge heal gap in healing/tanking atm either I don't ahve to do anything, or I am button mashing my DH's just to try and keep a tank out of the red. Spending time casting a spell which will heal for a little bit if the mob hits for 500-1000 damage is ( and I have tried it MANY MANY times) its just a waste of time. I remind you here I am not talking about low level xp killing of blues and whites and even yellows, a templar in those groups rarely has to heal at all. My gripe comes into play with the orange mobs and the names that are required for alot of the quests. when you can kill the level 60 mobs all the way up to the name and then the level 56 named beats the crap out of your tank for no apparent reason when the tank is level 56 as well and so is the templar. something with the templars heals are very very wrong when the guild calls the level 53 warden to come heal insted. My templar has more days of play time than you think and I have been playing him exclusivly since the expansion.

Mor · 10-15-2005, 06:42 PM

Ozzsmeg wrote:
Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them.

OMG! I want you to post this in the Templar forum. Please.

Mor · 10-15-2005, 06:43 PM

Wait, I'll post there to make sure they see your posts.

Bjerde · 10-15-2005, 07:42 PM

I remind you here I am not talking about low level xp killing of blues and whites and even yellows, a templar in those groups rarely has to heal at all. My gripe comes into play with the orange mobs and the names that are required for alot of the quests. when you can kill the level 60 mobs all the way up to the name and then the level 56 named beats the crap out of your tank for no apparent reason when the tank is level 56 as well and so is the templar. something with the templars heals are very very wrong when the guild calls the level 53 warden to come heal insted.This is your entire problem my friend. SoE has upgraded orange and red cons FOUR times since DoF came out. They made it so that people cannot xp on orange mobs. NO ONE can keep a tank alive on orange mobs (con orange to tank). You must fight yellows or below, this is by design....I tried the orange cons, and stopped fighting them. Melee and Casters can't hit them, Tanks can't take the hits. You need two healers, and fights are so long that xp sucks. Go fight whites and yellows for good xp.I have a 59 Templar and I use my reactives all the time, because they do work. On orange con and higher, the mobs hit for much more than a reactive will heal for. Reactives aren't what they used to be, but they aren't useless. I don't know anyone that xp's off Orange mobs anymore. Yes, this change was to make Named and Raids harder.

Shennr · 10-15-2005, 10:11 PM

Ozzsmeg, now you are bragging about your play time, hehe.

I can put you to shame here. I dinged 50 back in december and I have over 100 days played as well. That play time does not even count where I took off 3 months of continuously not logging in because of a summer job that I had.

Reactives are not meant to be a solo heal spell. They are used to be a buffer because they heal more then a DH and the recast time is farely short still. If you are calling Reactives useless then I do think that you are a noob still.

Some people can play this game forever and not know the full potential of their class. Others can pick it up right away and be the best in very little time.

Aaeamdar · 10-15-2005, 10:19 PM

Well, it's official. This is now just like EQ1. The most powerful healers in the game (Templars/Clerics) are coming to the boards of the healers that completely suck (Wardens/Druids) to whine about how Templars/Clerics aren't really so good. Templar trolls, please go home. I don't invade your boards, please stay off mine. I am not at all interested in your opinions.

Supernova17 · 10-16-2005, 12:34 AM

Ozzsmeg wrote: Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time.

You sir, are totally misguided and wrong. It is really HILARIOUS that these Wardens understand how post-CC Templars work and you do not. I suggest you stop trolling their boards so the Wardens can work out their problems without arguments from a Templar who has not adjusted to the combat changes. I'd also suggest you come to your own Templar boards and ask for advice from other Templars who've adapted to the CC such as myself, Kendricke, Radar-X and everyone else who are trying to make Templars having issues with their class like you see the truth. The truth is we are powerful healers, all of our abilities have thier use and we are still one of the least broken classes. This is evident not only in many Templars doing their jobs rather than complaining, but a great many of the other classes are being tweaked every few days as evident in the update notes.

Frametree · 10-16-2005, 01:54 AM

Nice, thanks True Templar. This guy has been so ridiculous. Anyway, thanks again. SMILEY

Spag · 10-16-2005, 10:01 AM

Ozzsmeg wrote:
Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them.

My 3 main heals at the moment are my 2 DH and my group heal (which I have to use to heal the tank, because both my DH can be down at the same time), I uses proc heals and debuffs to make up the missing healing, reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time.

Wow, your most power/time efficient spell, and you don't use it.

Since our regens cant keep up with damage, we basically have to spam our (less than) direct heals just to make an attempt at keeping up with mob dps.

Ozzsmeg wrote:

Templar would be unplay able without Glory of combat and mark of kings which are dependent on scouts hitting the mob and the tank being able to hit the mob a vaguly decent amount.

We don't even have anything like this. Since you supposedly cannot heal without these, you should be able to see why we cant.

Ozzsmeg wrote:

Why would I use a spell that heals for 300hp each time the mob hits and the mob hits for 500hp when I can better spend my time casting a DH which heals 1000 instantly and then stun the next round while the spell refreshes?

A spell that heals for more than 50% of the incoming damage, the instant it comes in. Yeah, sounds useless to me too. Must also be nice to lay 1000 HP down on a tank in an instant. You are not meant to heal with reactives alone, like I am sure you are used to doing.

Ozzsmeg wrote:

If your playing a templar with reactives your not killing what I consider a decent mob. Reactives are only usefull on mobs that are less than 2 levels higher than the tank and then I don't have to heal at all because mark of kings and glory of combat pick up the diffrence.

I think most of us would be happy to be able to heal for a group taking on mobs 2 levels higher, let alone 3 or 4.

Ozzsmeg wrote:
There is a huge heal gap in healing/tanking atm either I don't ahve to do anything, or I am button mashing my DH's just to try and keep a tank out of the red. Spending time casting a spell which will heal for a little bit if the mob hits for 500-1000 damage is ( and I have tried it MANY MANY times) its just a waste of time.

You are button mashing because you are not using your reactives. If you stack your single target reactive with your group reactive you can lay out the HP/s so much faster than just about any other priest class. If you did not know this, I would have to ask how much you bought your account for.

Ozzsmeg wrote:
I remind you here I am not talking about low level xp killing of blues and whites and even yellows, a templar in those groups rarely has to heal at all. My gripe comes into play with the orange mobs and the names that are required for alot of the quests. when you can kill the level 60 mobs all the way up to the name and then the level 56 named beats the crap out of your tank for no apparent reason when the tank is level 56 as well and so is the templar. something with the templars heals are very very wrong when the guild calls the level 53 warden to come heal insted.

My templar has more days of play time than you think and I have been playing him exclusivly since the expansion.

After 11 months playing and you are still struggling with the fact that named mobs are much harder than their level. Its not tough to understand. Named mobs have always been harder. I simply do not believe a 53 warden solo healed a situation where a 56 Templar could not. Then again you are not playing your Templar correctly so who knows.

Simple fact, if you are not using reactives you are not playing a Templar. If you cannot see the benefit of the reactives coupled with direct heals and the group reactive, you are simply ignoring the truth. The numbers I posted previously are the exact numbers from the spell books. The math is simple and easy to follow.

Your reactives alone can out heal our regens by a long shot. Your direct heals are much better and heal faster than our direct heals. You show me a real scenario where a Warden can heal faster than a Templar, with actual numbers. Time to put up or shut up.

Blast2hell · 10-17-2005, 08:06 PM

Ozzsmeg wrote:
Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them.

My 3 main heals at the moment are my 2 DH and my group heal (which I have to use to heal the tank, because both my DH can be down at the same time), I uses proc heals and debuffs to make up the missing healing, reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time.

Templar would be unplay able without Glory of combat and mark of kings which are dependent on scouts hitting the mob and the tank being able to hit the mob a vaguly decent amount.

My templar has more days of play time than you think and I have been playing him exclusivly since the expansion.

OMG, Thankyou for posting this thread over on the Templar Boards. First I would like to apologize to the wardens for the things this guy says. Do not think all templars agree, he clearly has no idea how to play yet. Because all that playtime/raid time only helps a little after the revamp because you(everyone for that matter) have to learn how to play again post revamp. Just reading the posters playing style tells me exactly why his tank is in the red, and exactly why they would call a warden in to save the day.

I'm not even going to go into detail about Ozzsmeg's post. There is so much he is doing wrong as a templar it's earth shattering. I think only someone standing behind him telling him which button to hit and when would help him.

In the end, I hope wardens get the fixes they need, I'm glad to see they've made some changes, but until the wardens in my guild say there doing good..I'll keep hoping for ya.

Kendricke · 10-18-2005, 12:17 AM

Aaeamdar wrote:

Templar trolls, please go home. I don't invade your boards, please stay off mine. I am not at all interested in your opinions.

Just know that he doesn't speak for all of us. I daresay he doesn't speak for many of us. Sorry for the interruptions. We're now currently discussing his...post...in the Templar forums.

P.S. - For the record, Ozzmeg's posted in the Templar forums exactly once...in March.

Message Edited by Kendricke on 10-17-2005 01:19 PM

10-13-2005, 07:34 PM	#2
Kyralis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 637	I'm as big a proponent for balancing as anyone, but a list of numbers like this is reasonably useless. It says nothing about casting time, recasting time or HP/sec. For instance, with Wardens, you must include the first tick of the HoT on our direct heals when comparing them with a Templar. Why? Because that tick has gone off by the time the Templar heal lands due to the faster casting of our heals, which means that for the purposes of comparison the first tick and the initial heal happened simultaneously. From your chart you'd guess that Furies are horrible healers, but that's not the case- the furies are actually quite effective because of their fast cast and recast times. I want to see things fixed, but if we make inflammatory posts that disregard actual fact we're just going to get ignored. As we've actually shown elsewhere, our specialty heals are actually the main source of falling behind the other healers, especially with respect to sustained HP/sec and efficiency. Our DHs merely need to be shortened (3 and 6 seconds are the numbers we've been tossing around). __________________ -- Kyralis Warden of Nagafen

10-13-2005, 08:28 PM	#3
pedigr General Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 233	Caerwyn wrote:you must include the first tick of the HoT on our direct heals when comparing them with a Templar. Why? Because that tick has gone off by the time the Templar heal lands due to the faster casting of our heals, which means that for the purposes of comparison the first tick and the initial heal happened simultaneously Hes got a point, add 40-60 to the Warden figures. Still doesnt add up to much really Is anyone at SoE even concerned about the Warden at all? Thats what I want to know __________________ 80 Warden \| 80 Brigand \| 80 Illusionist

10-13-2005, 10:42 PM	#4
myount Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 84	Hes got a point, add 40-60 to the Warden figures. Still doesnt add up to much really Is anyone at SoE even concerned about the Warden at all? Thats what I want to know They threw a band-aid at us with the tiny increase to heals. Granted, it helped, but not even close to fixing the problem. I am getting tired of even caring at this point. Just give wardens a nice heal like our counterparts get and that would stop burst damage problems. Get rid of our 52 spell and replace it with that. Dont forget to fix our wolves to scale with our levels. __________________ Knurd 70 Brigand ** Sacri 70 Monk

10-14-2005, 12:07 AM	#6
Kyralis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 637	I don't disagree that our DHs need at least some of the regen shifted back into the instant component; you'll see that I mention that as being necessary in my problems/solutions thread. What I take issue with is the OP's inflammatory, misleading chart. I don't care about the size of green numbers. I care about one thing: Warden effectiveness. To achieve that, and most especially to get our point listened to, we need to provide information that is based on all of the facts, not just a convenient subset. If you complain to the developers saying "hey, my heals are tiny when I disregard the regen component!" they're going to come back and say "so don't disregard the regen component and you heal the same". That's not useful. What we need to do is show why the regen component is less useful than the instant heal component, and then how that unbalances the Warden class in relation to the other healing classes. The chart by the OP is like my example above in that it disregards an enormous number of factors that play into how well a priest performs in a variety of settings, and that narrowminded basis for complaint is what will get even a valid point ignored. __________________ -- Kyralis Warden of Nagafen

10-14-2005, 12:25 AM	#7
Spag Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 788	Very good point Caer. While I don't believe our direct heals are the main problem, they do need to have a higher % of the total heal up front, and fully unload within a few seconds. A direct heal spread across 12 seconds is not direct. The real issue is that we are relying too heavily on our direct heals to push up our HP/s. This is because the regen line does not scale, and our group regen is effectively useless. Cleric and Shaman classes can stack both their single target special and group special on a single target for an enormous amount of healing/warding, which leaves their direct heals available to either suppliment heal, or deal with adds. While they are doing this, we are chain casting our regen, and direct heals and still heal less that what they can do with their specials alone within the same time frame, but they would also be covered in case of adds, since their group specials are applied where needed. Even if 2 members of our group are taking damage, our group regen wastes 66% of its HP. Will get some real numbers on this shortly. __________________

10-13-2005, 07:05 PM	#1
davorak Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 13	grp heal small heal big heal templar 726 - 888 649 - 794 1002 - 1284 inquister 734 -897 657-803 1166-1425 defiler 726-888 649-774 1199-1465 mytic 734-897 657-803 1166-1425 fury 588-718 525-642 932-1140 warden 465-568 400-489 639-781 ok these are the rough numbers of the main spell lines for healers classes at T6. the numbers are rough becuase some are app2 and some are master but in any event I believe it paints the picture pretty clear. Hell yes i left off the worthless HOT addition to wardens main heals as they are worthless and need to be striped. Leave us the regens like chlro... and HG. Those are fine and balanced to the other healers. Take off the regen on the the 3 main heals like every other healer and bump the numbers into there ranges. That's really very cut dry and simple. You want balance lets have it.

10-13-2005, 11:49 PM	#5
MaldekTM Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 61	I'm with Davorak on this one. These numbers might be 90% accurate or whatever, but it proves the point : We can't heal. That's the overall point. Not that we need a magical new speciality heal or any hooplah like that. Just boost our Direct Heals by getting rid of the useless secondary HoT and have a nice big initial blast. Is there any reason for us to heal less than a Fury? I thought Warden was the defensive druid, doesn't that mean we should be healing more than them? I like the chart. It's clear and simple. We heal the least. People can argue that it's power-efficiency, but that doesn't matter to me. We heal the least. For a defensive druid, and for a healer to survive, we need to be able to heal LARGE AMOUNTS quickly, not piddle paddle around with this slow molasses secondary regen crap. Devs: Boost our direct heal amounts. Scrap the HoT effect I picked priest so I could heal. Not so I could heal a little bit now and a little bit later and a little bit more later still. I want to be proud of the green number that pops-up over the Tank's head. Right now, it's embarassing.

10-14-2005, 01:04 AM	#8
Spag Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 788	Ok so I logged in and dug up some numbers, here they are. All are from the T5 adept3 specials. Templar Greater intercession (40) Single Target 194-237 (4) upon attack Crucial intercession (42) Group 207-253 (9) upon attack Mystic Ancestral Aegis (41) Single Target 800 pts Umbral Ritual (42) Group 1546 pts Warden Chloroplast (40) Single Target 143-174 2 sec Chlorostorm (42) Group 118-145 2 sec Basically this is how it breaks down stacking specials alone, and taking the average heal amount in the range: Templar 215.5+230 = 445.5 per hit Mystic 2346 pts used as needed. Warden 158.5+131.5 = 290 every 2 seconds From parses I have seen mobs hit every 2 seconds or so on average, with auto attack + combat arts. If we say one hit on average every 2 seconds at 8 seconds in: Templar would have healed for 1782 Mystic would have healed for 2346 as needed and can have recasted an additional 800 ward. Wardens would have healed for 1160 Thats a 600 HP difference in just 8 seconds, just using specials when compared to the Templar, and half of what a Mystic can do. This is basically a single mob situation, in situations with multiple mobs, the difference in healing grows substantially as the target is getting hit more often. Templar and Mystics can recast their single target special within 6 seconds. We have to wait double that amount as it will do no good to recast sooner. We start off below what the other classes can do, and since our HP/s cannot scale up we are left in the dust. Message Edited by Spagma on 10-13-2005 05:10 PM __________________

10-14-2005, 01:31 AM	#9
Kyralis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 637	Those are the sorts of numbers that are useful. To put things in HP/sec terms: Even with only single target specialties, the Templar has an 8 second casting cycle. Assuming all 4 charges are used in 8 seconds, which is not at all unreasonable, the Templar can sustain 107.75 hp/second with single target reactive alone. The Mystic with a similar casting cycle can sustain 100 hp/second. The warden can sustain a measily 79.25. Please note that all of these have the same power cost and the same casting time. Adding in the group specialties thing get even more ridiculously out of line. The Warden maximum HP/second with single target + group speciality, on a single target, is 145 hp/sec. The Templar has a 20 second casting cycle on the group reactive, and can sustain 211.25 HP/sec on a single target (yes, that's % greater than a warden. Using only specialty + group specialty). The Mystic can sustain 177.3 with single target + group wards only. That's sustained. Of course, for the Warden sustained and burst are identical. For the Templar, burst is related solely to how fast hits come in- a bruiser mob doing a flury move could easily burn through the entire healing load of a group + single target reactive in seconds, and similarly burn through 2346 points of ward in moments. Yeah, we have a problem with burst healing. __________________ -- Kyralis Warden of Nagafen

10-14-2005, 04:09 AM	#10
pedigr General Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 233	Excellent posts by both Spagma and Caer... Please SoE, these are actual figures, give or take a couple of useless percent. In the end, this is what you have done to the Wardens, greatly reduced our ability to play. Please fix it as a matter of urgency. __________________ 80 Warden \| 80 Brigand \| 80 Illusionist

10-14-2005, 05:45 PM	#11
Arelore Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 32	I wonder how the numbers/data pans out for our buffs compared to other priests. Message Edited by Arelore on 10-14-2005 10:07 AM __________________ Trelore 80 Warden/80 Tailor Deffon 70 Dirge Blackborrow

10-15-2005, 08:15 AM	#12
Ozzsm Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 12	Hang on hang on, let me roll around on the floor laughing for 20mins. A tamplar can't cycle his spells fast enough for those numbers to be even accurate, the reactives have 6second and 15 second timers plus cast time to consider. Since a mob can hit for EVER one of the hits in a round these figures are essentially irrelavent. You should really go back and look at just what spells a druid has at his disposal, since the cumlative healing output from druids 20 levels lower than my templar have greater healing potential that anything i can provide. This is essentially because 50% of my healing is based on the scounts in the group being able to hit the mob enough to proc heals. Most of a templars healing is based on random rolls. Its kind of scary when a druid 5 levels lower than me is prefered in an xp group to me becuase they heal more hp. You numbers clearly indicate teh opposite should be happening. There must be other contributing factors. You are comparing the mufflers of 3 diffrent cars to there top speed, when you should be considering the whole vehicle.

10-15-2005, 09:16 AM	#13
Valeda Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 41	Didnt read the whole post, I am not one for forums. Just wanted to interject a number I had pre-Dof on my main DH. (40 warden Oggok... Kity Sharpclaws) The natures embrace I belive it is, (ive lost interest) pre-DOf healed for around 2,700 WITH dot. I know thats alot, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the changes have taken it to the extreme. It has lost its finess, it has lost its charm to me. Now all I can do is, know that im going to go try to find a group just to get my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked out there it seems. The mobs are so hard now.... The game to me has went from north to south, east to west since I have played it. I see alot of people ont hese forums that really seeem to think that keeping a posotive happy attitude and trying to ALWAYS, find the posotive, are the same people that just stick there heads in the sand when theyreally shouldnt.... Anyway, I have decided to quit, will check back for patch updates etc etc, but this games lost it magic for me ;( take care all.

10-15-2005, 10:24 AM	#14
Eileah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 352	Ozzsmeg wrote: Its kind of scary when a druid 5 levels lower than me is prefered in an xp group to me becuase they heal more hp. You numbers clearly indicate teh opposite should be happening. There must be other contributing factors. Hmmm, I wonder what that factor could be /ponder __________________ Eileah ToxxRoxx

10-15-2005, 12:02 PM	#15
Kyralis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 637	Ozzsmeg wrote:Hang on hang on, let me roll around on the floor laughing for 20mins. A tamplar can't cycle his spells fast enough for those numbers to be even accurate, the reactives have 6second and 15 second timers plus cast time to consider. Since a mob can hit for EVER one of the hits in a round these figures are essentially irrelavent. You should really go back and look at just what spells a druid has at his disposal, since the cumlative healing output from druids 20 levels lower than my templar have greater healing potential that anything i can provide. This is essentially because 50% of my healing is based on the scounts in the group being able to hit the mob enough to proc heals. Most of a templars healing is based on random rolls. Its kind of scary when a druid 5 levels lower than me is prefered in an xp group to me becuase they heal more hp. You numbers clearly indicate teh opposite should be happening. There must be other contributing factors. You are comparing the mufflers of 3 diffrent cars to there top speed, when you should be considering the whole vehicle. Trust me, I know what spells a druid has at his disposal. I know what level I get them at, I know how much they heal for, I know the cast and recast timers. I use them daily. I also know how reactives work. I have played a level 50 of every single healer class thanks to the DoF beta. A cleric's reactive heal has a 2 second cast time (116 power for T5) and a 6 second recast, giving rise to a maximum of one cast of reactive every 8 seconds. As long as 8 hits arrive within that period, the full healing of a reactive can be assumed to be spread out as HP/sec over the course of that 8 seconds to calculate sustained HP/sec; it can also come in (effectively) instantly in response to simultaneous hits form multiple mobs or a flurry attack, responding immediately to damage. Druids have nothing remotely close, and our special has a 12 second recast- 50% longer, resulitng in only 66% of the sustained HP/sec as a reactive provides. If you're being outhealed by a lower level druid, you need to learn to play your class. Either that or you're referring to wardens pre-LU13, when we did have the largest single-target heals. __________________ -- Kyralis Warden of Nagafen

10-15-2005, 12:32 PM	#16
Shennr Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 346	** No personal attacks please. Message Edited by Anterra on 01-25-200607:01 AM

10-15-2005, 01:59 PM	#17
Ozzsm Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 12	Rofl clearly you spend more time posting that you do playing. I have more than 100days as my templar and created him the day EQ2 was release. My lack of knowledge of this spell was simple related to that I was level 50 well before splitpaw and never even purchased it. Templar are having very huge troubles at the moment due to the long cast time on there spells with not what was promised for the longer cast times, that being bigger healing. Wardens on the other hard are healing tanks with little or no effort and I have not seen a single warden I have come across have trouble keeping a tank in green when I heave trouble keeping him above red for the same fight. If you believe this is a noob problem then clearly 12months of playing a templar, and more raids than I care to count, is less than what you have been playing a templar for, so feel free to flame me again. It is evident that ALL of the healing is well under what everyone feels that it should be, however it seems that complaing about your inability to use what your have to you best ability is a clear indicator that you want healing to be easy. You want an easy play a DPS class and beat the hell out of things, don't make stupid comments about a well experience person with more knowledge that you have clearly indicated you have. For the record, Single directed reactive for a templar is 4 times not 8 and the group reactive is way to long a cast time to be effective in combat, its not used by many.

10-15-2005, 02:43 PM	#18
Zel Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 117	OMG the nice Troll on the warden"s forum : Ozzsmeg wrote:Rofl clearly you spend more time posting that you do playing.Templar are having very huge troubles at the moment due to the long cast time on there spells with not what was promised for the longer cast times, that being bigger healing. Wardens on the other hard are healing tanks with little or no effort and I have not seen a single warden I have come across have trouble keeping a tank in green when I heave trouble keeping him above red for the same fight. You're wrong on all the line. Warden is probably the specialist of Heal Spamming about all healing class because our Heal line is inefficiency vs Burst/Pikes Damages. Message Edited by Zelya on 10-15-2005 01:10 PM __________________ Naylia, 60 Warden (First Server!) of Runnyeye [Xanadu]. "From Debate Springs up Light"

10-15-2005, 05:57 PM	#19
Sorano Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 505	Ozzsmeg wrote: For the record, Single directed reactive for a templar is 4 times not 8 and the group reactive is way to long a cast time to be effective in combat, its not used by many. You Sir, do not know how to play your Templar. You can still cast your group reactive before a pull and not get aggro. Any Templar worth their salt does that now, and the fact that you think it's not used by many Templars speaks volumes about how much you know about the class. I think most Templars are not used to the fact that they lost their ability to jsut apply their reactives and go afk. You actually have to heal now. To borow a much used adage "LEARN HOW TO PLAY YOUR CLASS" And stay out of the warden forums.. __________________

10-15-2005, 06:25 PM	#20
Ozzsm Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 12	Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. My 3 main heals at the moment are my 2 DH and my group heal (which I have to use to heal the tank, because both my DH can be down at the same time), I uses proc heals and debuffs to make up the missing healing, reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time. Templar would be unplay able without Glory of combat and mark of kings which are dependent on scouts hitting the mob and the tank being able to hit the mob a vaguly decent amount. I start a fight with both reactives up, which have the effect of taking the first round of burst damage on the tank, after that they become a IF I have time to cast them. I spend all my time in a fight cycling 3 spells I might get a stun in now and again, but on most tanks I have trouble keeping up with damage using DH, when my. Why would I use a spell that heals for 300hp each time the mob hits and the mob hits for 500hp when I can better spend my time casting a DH which heals 1000 instantly and then stun the next round while the spell refreshes? If your playing a templar with reactives your not killing what I consider a decent mob. Reactives are only usefull on mobs that are less than 2 levels higher than the tank and then I don't have to heal at all because mark of kings and glory of combat pick up the diffrence. There is a huge heal gap in healing/tanking atm either I don't ahve to do anything, or I am button mashing my DH's just to try and keep a tank out of the red. Spending time casting a spell which will heal for a little bit if the mob hits for 500-1000 damage is ( and I have tried it MANY MANY times) its just a waste of time. I remind you here I am not talking about low level xp killing of blues and whites and even yellows, a templar in those groups rarely has to heal at all. My gripe comes into play with the orange mobs and the names that are required for alot of the quests. when you can kill the level 60 mobs all the way up to the name and then the level 56 named beats the crap out of your tank for no apparent reason when the tank is level 56 as well and so is the templar. something with the templars heals are very very wrong when the guild calls the level 53 warden to come heal insted. My templar has more days of play time than you think and I have been playing him exclusivly since the expansion.

10-15-2005, 06:42 PM	#21
Mor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 344	Ozzsmeg wrote: Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. OMG! I want you to post this in the Templar forum. Please.

10-15-2005, 06:43 PM	#22
Mor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 344	Wait, I'll post there to make sure they see your posts.

10-15-2005, 07:42 PM	#23
Bjerde Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 412	I remind you here I am not talking about low level xp killing of blues and whites and even yellows, a templar in those groups rarely has to heal at all. My gripe comes into play with the orange mobs and the names that are required for alot of the quests. when you can kill the level 60 mobs all the way up to the name and then the level 56 named beats the crap out of your tank for no apparent reason when the tank is level 56 as well and so is the templar. something with the templars heals are very very wrong when the guild calls the level 53 warden to come heal insted.This is your entire problem my friend. SoE has upgraded orange and red cons FOUR times since DoF came out. They made it so that people cannot xp on orange mobs. NO ONE can keep a tank alive on orange mobs (con orange to tank). You must fight yellows or below, this is by design....I tried the orange cons, and stopped fighting them. Melee and Casters can't hit them, Tanks can't take the hits. You need two healers, and fights are so long that xp sucks. Go fight whites and yellows for good xp.I have a 59 Templar and I use my reactives all the time, because they do work. On orange con and higher, the mobs hit for much more than a reactive will heal for. Reactives aren't what they used to be, but they aren't useless. I don't know anyone that xp's off Orange mobs anymore. Yes, this change was to make Named and Raids harder. __________________ Everfrost.Wikkan - Battlegrounds

10-15-2005, 10:11 PM	#24
Shennr Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 346	Ozzsmeg, now you are bragging about your play time, hehe. I can put you to shame here. I dinged 50 back in december and I have over 100 days played as well. That play time does not even count where I took off 3 months of continuously not logging in because of a summer job that I had. Reactives are not meant to be a solo heal spell. They are used to be a buffer because they heal more then a DH and the recast time is farely short still. If you are calling Reactives useless then I do think that you are a noob still. Some people can play this game forever and not know the full potential of their class. Others can pick it up right away and be the best in very little time.

10-15-2005, 10:19 PM	#25
Aaeamdar Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 150	Well, it's official. This is now just like EQ1. The most powerful healers in the game (Templars/Clerics) are coming to the boards of the healers that completely suck (Wardens/Druids) to whine about how Templars/Clerics aren't really so good. Templar trolls, please go home. I don't invade your boards, please stay off mine. I am not at all interested in your opinions. __________________ "I am a leaf on the wind." -Wash

10-16-2005, 12:34 AM	#26
Supernova17 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,317	Ozzsmeg wrote: Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time. You sir, are totally misguided and wrong. It is really HILARIOUS that these Wardens understand how post-CC Templars work and you do not. I suggest you stop trolling their boards so the Wardens can work out their problems without arguments from a Templar who has not adjusted to the combat changes. I'd also suggest you come to your own Templar boards and ask for advice from other Templars who've adapted to the CC such as myself, Kendricke, Radar-X and everyone else who are trying to make Templars having issues with their class like you see the truth. The truth is we are powerful healers, all of our abilities have thier use and we are still one of the least broken classes. This is evident not only in many Templars doing their jobs rather than complaining, but a great many of the other classes are being tweaked every few days as evident in the update notes.

10-16-2005, 01:54 AM	#27
Frametree Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	Nice, thanks True Templar. This guy has been so ridiculous. Anyway, thanks again.

10-16-2005, 10:01 AM	#28
Spag Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 788	Ozzsmeg wrote: Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. My 3 main heals at the moment are my 2 DH and my group heal (which I have to use to heal the tank, because both my DH can be down at the same time), I uses proc heals and debuffs to make up the missing healing, reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time. Wow, your most power/time efficient spell, and you don't use it. Since our regens cant keep up with damage, we basically have to spam our (less than) direct heals just to make an attempt at keeping up with mob dps. Ozzsmeg wrote: Templar would be unplay able without Glory of combat and mark of kings which are dependent on scouts hitting the mob and the tank being able to hit the mob a vaguly decent amount. We don't even have anything like this. Since you supposedly cannot heal without these, you should be able to see why we cant. Ozzsmeg wrote: Why would I use a spell that heals for 300hp each time the mob hits and the mob hits for 500hp when I can better spend my time casting a DH which heals 1000 instantly and then stun the next round while the spell refreshes? A spell that heals for more than 50% of the incoming damage, the instant it comes in. Yeah, sounds useless to me too. Must also be nice to lay 1000 HP down on a tank in an instant. You are not meant to heal with reactives alone, like I am sure you are used to doing. Ozzsmeg wrote: If your playing a templar with reactives your not killing what I consider a decent mob. Reactives are only usefull on mobs that are less than 2 levels higher than the tank and then I don't have to heal at all because mark of kings and glory of combat pick up the diffrence. I think most of us would be happy to be able to heal for a group taking on mobs 2 levels higher, let alone 3 or 4. Ozzsmeg wrote: There is a huge heal gap in healing/tanking atm either I don't ahve to do anything, or I am button mashing my DH's just to try and keep a tank out of the red. Spending time casting a spell which will heal for a little bit if the mob hits for 500-1000 damage is ( and I have tried it MANY MANY times) its just a waste of time. You are button mashing because you are not using your reactives. If you stack your single target reactive with your group reactive you can lay out the HP/s so much faster than just about any other priest class. If you did not know this, I would have to ask how much you bought your account for. Ozzsmeg wrote: I remind you here I am not talking about low level xp killing of blues and whites and even yellows, a templar in those groups rarely has to heal at all. My gripe comes into play with the orange mobs and the names that are required for alot of the quests. when you can kill the level 60 mobs all the way up to the name and then the level 56 named beats the crap out of your tank for no apparent reason when the tank is level 56 as well and so is the templar. something with the templars heals are very very wrong when the guild calls the level 53 warden to come heal insted. My templar has more days of play time than you think and I have been playing him exclusivly since the expansion. After 11 months playing and you are still struggling with the fact that named mobs are much harder than their level. Its not tough to understand. Named mobs have always been harder. I simply do not believe a 53 warden solo healed a situation where a 56 Templar could not. Then again you are not playing your Templar correctly so who knows. Simple fact, if you are not using reactives you are not playing a Templar. If you cannot see the benefit of the reactives coupled with direct heals and the group reactive, you are simply ignoring the truth. The numbers I posted previously are the exact numbers from the spell books. The math is simple and easy to follow. Your reactives alone can out heal our regens by a long shot. Your direct heals are much better and heal faster than our direct heals. You show me a real scenario where a Warden can heal faster than a Templar, with actual numbers. Time to put up or shut up. __________________

10-17-2005, 08:06 PM	#29
Blast2hell Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 472	Ozzsmeg wrote: Reactives are a now next to useless, no one uses them. My 3 main heals at the moment are my 2 DH and my group heal (which I have to use to heal the tank, because both my DH can be down at the same time), I uses proc heals and debuffs to make up the missing healing, reactievs are NOT WORTH the mana they take to cast nor the time. Templar would be unplay able without Glory of combat and mark of kings which are dependent on scouts hitting the mob and the tank being able to hit the mob a vaguly decent amount. My templar has more days of play time than you think and I have been playing him exclusivly since the expansion. OMG, Thankyou for posting this thread over on the Templar Boards. First I would like to apologize to the wardens for the things this guy says. Do not think all templars agree, he clearly has no idea how to play yet. Because all that playtime/raid time only helps a little after the revamp because you(everyone for that matter) have to learn how to play again post revamp. Just reading the posters playing style tells me exactly why his tank is in the red, and exactly why they would call a warden in to save the day. I'm not even going to go into detail about Ozzsmeg's post. There is so much he is doing wrong as a templar it's earth shattering. I think only someone standing behind him telling him which button to hit and when would help him. In the end, I hope wardens get the fixes they need, I'm glad to see they've made some changes, but until the wardens in my guild say there doing good..I'll keep hoping for ya. __________________ Athian Miere 70 Barbarian Templar Paradigm-Unrest EQ2 Utility Programs Written By me: Priest Healing Parser EQ2MusicModder

10-18-2005, 12:17 AM	#30
Kendricke Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,032	Aaeamdar wrote: Templar trolls, please go home. I don't invade your boards, please stay off mine. I am not at all interested in your opinions. Just know that he doesn't speak for all of us. I daresay he doesn't speak for many of us. Sorry for the interruptions. We're now currently discussing his...post...in the Templar forums. P.S. - For the record, Ozzmeg's posted in the Templar forums exactly once...in March. Message Edited by Kendricke on 10-17-2005 01:19 PM __________________ * -Opinions expressed in this post do not represent any current or past employers.