Consolidated Warden Issues

[Kyralis]

(Though the original purpose of this thread was to focus on our healing issues, a large portion of those problems has been dealt with. Since the thread remains stickied, it seems a good location to consolidate the other problems that continue to afflict the class.) Current Warden Bugs/Issues1) Protecting Grove (58, the summoned healing tree) is currently killed quite easily by some AEs. It was stated at one point that such pets would not be hit by AEs not directly targetted at them; that seems to not be the case for certain types of AE damage. This should be looked into; the fact that we can have a heal killed by damage- which is exactly what it is supposed to heal! - rather negates the purpose. In addition, the size of the tree is, while great fun the first time you cast it, a drawback in any serious situation (raiding or the like). The fact that it can be targetted, blocks clicks on others, blocks movement, etc can all make the spell more trouble than it is worth sometimes. 2) Duststorm/Sandstorm's stun does not affect epic targets as of the latest patch. With this change, Wardens effectively lose all use in the MT group, and our position as the worst buffer- despite being the supposedly defensive druids- is cemented. We desperately need some other utility to replace it on raids to maintain the subclass as a viable participant, or for that stun to be active again. The defense bonus is no longer a compellling buff on its own, as mitigation improvements (or healing buffs) are now king. 3) Heirophantic Genesis, a level 50 spell, has been rendered useless by the combat update. Its previous function- very high HP/sec for very low power while stunned on a single target has been destroyed as the power cost was very significantly increased and the HP/sec no longer comes near what Direct Heals + our normal regen line can sustain. Once Wild Growth is gotten at 54, the spell will never be cast again- our standard, no-downside HoT at 54 is just as effective for far less power! EDIT: With the new improvements to standard regen spells, the above is even more true. HG is now *completely* useless, and will never be cast again. Since this spell is intended to compare with spells such as Porcupine, this is a definite problem. UPDATE: LU 16 increased this, but it remains useless, frankly. 814 power (and being stunned) over 36 seconds for 7600 healing at Master I is, frankly, laughable. Over the same time, even 3 casts of Wild Growth will heal for approximately 6750 for only 348 power and no stun! There exists not a single reason why anyone would actually cast HG. UPDATE: LU 18 decreased the power cost by approximately 70, and added a power-regen component to the spell. While this is a step in the right direction, it doesn't address the primary concern: We are a healing class. Self-stunning spells must not interfere with that to be worthwhile, and if they do, they must provide some specialized benefit that can "heal" in another fashion if the spell is to be used; for instance, the Fury porcupine ability which prevents the Fury from casting but significantly reduces the damage done to the target- thereby effectively mitigating the lack of healing from the fury. HG does not have any such component, and still continues to heal for *far* less than the Warden would otherwise be able to heal, ensuring that the spell will retain its "useless" designation. 4) Wardens on raids are somewhat superfluous. Duststorm, previously a defining spell of the class in raids, is now useless- a Conjuror can buff defense as well, without the recurring power cost and without the root. Since the stun does not affect epics, the spell has been relegated to the "never bother" category, because it simply doesn't make any difference in the fight. Our instant heals continue to be behind- while the increase to HoTs (both group and single target) was perfect, it helps only a single druid out of the entire raid- hardly a fix for raiding where most of the Wardens, if not all, will be solely using their direct heals. The low instant component and the simple mechanics of raid healing mean that the HoT portion of a warden's heal is normally wasted. We're relegated to being group healers- except that a Fury is equally effective while being also better at direct heals. From a raiding perspective, this is a significant problem. 5) In addition to our healing problems on raids, there arises the question of what other than healing we bring to the raid. Duststorm is now only a marginally effective raid buff since the stun no longer affects epics. Our suposedly "defensive" nature is missing- a fury buffs as well as we do (including at elemental resists) and provides useful offensive buffs as well. Tranquilizing Spores is, from a healing perspective, entirely negligible in the face of raid mob DPS. A fury provides a better damage shield. We bring no unique cures to the raid. We bring no debuffs at *all* to a raid, with the exception of our cold dot, which has the sole effect of increasing wizard, conjuror and self DPS- frankly, not very useful given that others will also be debuffing the elemental resists of the mob. Raiding boils down to "everything we could think about doing, someone else already does much better". We have no power drain, no attribute debuffs, no DPS decrease or slow. Our additional healing buff is unnoticeable. The only possible thing we could add is additional wisdom, but that brings up the question of whether or not the wisdom bonus is actually significant enough, given the fact that raid mobs already have inherent hit bonuses and are normally several levels on the tank, to warrant a Warden taking a spot over a class that *does* provide additional benefit to the raid. 6) Tunare's Watch is incredibly useless as a level 52 marquee spell. The tiny heal amount prevents it from truly saving anyone from death in the majority of situations, as the next tick of damage will easily re-kill the target. The heal needs to be increased significantly. 7) Roots still break a bit too often, though the situation is far better than it had been immediately following LU16. Warden's Gentle Reminder (fluff spell) does not have a duration. Casting it on someone results in a never-ending stream of rocks on their head. While amusing for the first minute or so, this does get old. The Great Utility Myth Many of the complaints mentioned in point 6 of the addendum are actually relevant to grouping as well. It seems to be common for others to claim that we deserve some lessened healing due to all the utility we bring to a group; the only problem with this argument is that we don't, in fact, bring very much at all. Let's look at what we bring, and then what we don't bring. 1) In a group situation, we bring Duststorm. The root on this makes it very, very annoying to use do to the constantly moving nature of a group, and the cooldown means that we cannot use it during every fight if the group is pulling rapidly while moving- something that is very common in EQ2. We bring Tranquilizing Spores, which is a completely negligible healing buff on a single target. Helps not at all with anyone else in the group, and fails to do anything to counteract our primary weakness: burst healing. We bring a single-target offensive skill buff, which can be useful in increasing the DPS of a single, melee member of the group. Unfortunately, that increase is marginal- it's a nice spell, and I certainly leave it up, but it's hardly a compelling utility spell; it doesn't provide the Warden class with anything special that we can do. We have a damage shield which is one of the most unnoticeable sources of damage in the game, and we have two roots- which, frankly, are the only utility spells that are really worth noticing. 2) There are a few things that people claim that we have that we don't. First, our evac is frankly a non-combat ability. The long casting time and ability to interrupt make it vastly inferior to that of a scout- and the fact that when a situation turns sour a Warden's job is to be healing so that everyone stays alive long enough for the evac to go off, not casting the evac. Similarly, SoW is a non-combat ability. While both of them are useful, neither brings a reason to take a warden over another healer- which is what, in general, determines the real worth of a so-called "utility" spell. 3) There are a multitude of things that we simply do not have. We have no ability to interrupt, no targetted or reliable way to stun, no ability to mezmerise, no ability to debuff the damage output of a mob or significantly debuff the defense of the mob (our elemental resist debuff as part of our DoT doesn't count as the elemental resists help so small a percentage of the classes.) No ability to power drain. No utility healing spells other than the aforementioned and effectively worthless Tranquilizing Spores. No groupwide utility spells for dealing with the status effects that have become so common in DoF- compare this to a Templar's Sanctuary, which I personally feel is the most useful "utility" spell received by any priest in the game. It is a wonderful spell, and I think it definitely has its place in the game- I just feel that other priests should receive something similar. 4) To summarize, we have effectively two real utility spells, especially from a combat perspective: Duststorm, which has significant drawbacks to usage; and our roots. It is occasionally argued that our DPS counts as utility; unfortunately, this is belied by the fact that priests with much higher utility and healing can match our damage output. The "utility" that we supposedly bring is, unfortunately, nothing but a myth.

Fixed Issues 1) Nature's Ally now scales with level. 2) Specialty Heal line is now in-line with other priests (pending possible additional issues appearing with more testing). 3) Protecting Grove's range has been fixed.

Message Edited by Caerwyn on 12-20-2005 01:02 PM

[Mor]

Thank you very much Caerwyn! 

[Ravenmi]

I think you summed it up very well Caerwyn.

 

My personal preference is option #2 100%.  But I'd take going back to the way we where before I suppose.  It would just be nice to be able to actually rely on our specialty heals for something.  The regen healing if it worked well would be a lot more fun and useful then just a great big Direct heal imo.

[Spag]

l like #2 as well, as all the other classes would complain about #1.  #2 does not change our healing amounts, but simply would allow them to deliver faster, and to the appropriate target.

Oh and thanks for mentioning the group regen. 

[MaldekTM]

I would love to see solution #1.  Pre-LU#13 I was loving the warden direct heals.  I actually thought it was intentional innovation to have druids with the strong direct heals & lesser speciality heal, something I saw as greatly insightful and finally a shift from the cleric-dominated healer game.  But alas...

The secondary tick on our direct heals is a poor substitue for a strong initial heal.  Why do we need 3 different forms of regen?  1 speciality regen and 2 strong direct heals and this class could again be a viable Main Healer for groups of 3-6 players.  We'd also return to our place as useful in the 24-player raid roster, despite our questionable buffs.

Regarding buffs, I think this issue is immensely if not as important as our problems with spike damage.  My solution would be a return to the druid ability of Planes of Power and beyond:

 

Group Power Regen Buffs (in-combat)

Imagine this:

Illusionists and Coercers -- best power regen buffs

Dirges and Troubadours -- 2nd place

Wardens and Furies -- 3rd place

 

With the Breeze lines being restricted to group-only, it would make perfect sense to re-integrate Power Regen back into the Druid archetype.  This way raids can spread out the Mage power-regen buffers (Enchanter) the Scout power-regen buffers(Bard) and lastly, the Priest power-regen buffers (Druid.)  With Power Regen added to one of our existing Concentration buffs or introduced as a new line altogether, the Druid buff series would have a viable distinction besides being just a weaker version of what the Cleric and Shaman can do.

My 2 cents, thank you Caerwyn for your concise and clear thoughts.

Message Edited by MaldekTM on 10-10-2005 11:13 AM

[Chepi]

Very nice suggestions Caerwyn! I only can hope SOE listens to our needs as healers. At first with the combat  changes I like many other wardens wanted to quit or did quit the game, however I enjoy playing my druid and found it hard to walk away from her after month's of hard word getting her to 50 and now almost to 55. I have raided and done the groups, but still feel I am a bit inadequate as a healer cause I am unable to deal with Spike damage rapidly enough. The changes this past week helped (thank You Lockeye), but I to feel that maybe some more adjusting will get us right. I am not about the numbers as some are so giving suggestions as to what would work is not really my area of expertise but I can say I was alot more effective pre dof then post dof. I would rather have my direct heals all in one shot or a higher intial with minimal amounts per tick. I do like your suggestions and hope that SOE is listening. ~Jewelzy~54 Druid~ Permafrost~

[Mor]

Honestly, I don't care how they fix it as long as it gets fixed.   I'm happy to alter my playstyle, provided I can still get the job done.   I personally think that some combination of 1 and 2 is the way to go, but I'm willing to consider either a solution.  Also, if there are no other heals that can be killed by aoe damage (or in any damage for that matter),  please make the tree non-killable.   It's simply not fair that we are singled out in this way.

[Kyralis]

I've added a "current bugs/smaller issues" section to my post mentioning the tree, the wolves not scaling, and the general non-fun factor of waiting on recast timers on heals. Please reply with any additional such issues and I'll get them added in.

[Eileah]

I was preparing a post when I came here and saw this.

Very well written and and presented, I hope it gets through to someone who can understand the problems we have.

What I don't understand and never have to be honest, is why we have a regen on our DH, other classes do not, they simply heal for a large amount without a reactive or ward tacked on to deliver part of the healing, only Druid classes have their DH broken into parts.

I am posting examples of the 3 different classes at level 32, it shouldn't matter what level they are because it isn't about the amounts or levels, its about the nature of the heals and how they differ for all priests.

Templar:

Mystic:

 

 

Warden:

 

 

Why have a difference? why can't we all just simply have a DH that heals a large amount? Why are druid classes forced to have a DH that is "specialty" and the other preists are not?

 

I don't want anyone nerfed, I only want to be able to do my job as a healer.

 

Our buffs need work, and I would seriously like to hear the reason why we have no debuffs to speak of, but mostly I want to know why we have been given a DH that has a regen on it when Cleric classes don't have a reactive tacked on to theirs, and Shaman dont have a ward tacked on to theirs, they simply heal a large amount directly but we cannot.

 

 

[Warpax]

the regen from our class heals(straight regens) and regen from our "direct heals" dont stack and if the tank is in a bad enough way for me to think about a direct heal then I probably already have my best regen on him. Im my opinion direct heals sould be just that one lump sum large heal or make our regen and direct heal regen stack.    

[Chepi]

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Caerwyn wrote: 3) As a general issue that affects priests in general, not having a heal to cast is not fun for a priest. We exist to keep others alive- and, for those of us who work to play a priest to the best of our ability, it can be rather stressful in some situations. Having to wait on a recast timer, without even a lower-level heal to cast for some marginal healing while you wait, only adds to frustration- not fun. Before the combat changes, we could mix in low-level heals (Bloom and Effloresce were the ones I most ofen used) when our big heals were down. They may not have healed much, but it at least gave us the sense that we were doing something rather than sitting around waiting for a spell to be castable again. With the removal of those options there's an element of frustration to the game that wasn't there before. Games should be fun, not frustrating.

Message Edited by Caerwyn on 10-10-2005 11:29 AM

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/AGREE. This shouldnt be taken as negative either. It is true I love playing a priest and spent hours trying to be the best I can be but when other priests take pot shots at You for being the weak healer well it goes above and beyond. I was in Shimmering Citadel and had been rezed when a Mystic came by and seen me spam healing self and casted a heal on me. You have been healed for 1031 points of damage. Then he said hahaha I heal better than you and ran off well that was a cheap shot imo. I dont want any other priest to be nerfed I just want to be able to heal as adequately as they do. I sorta just laughed off the mystic's comments and went about leveling but I had to laugh later and think maybe I should of done a /duel (LOL) if I can kick my Zerker Boyfriends butt all the time well then I coulda taken Him but then again He healed better than me. (LOL). The Fun factor is gone, the frustration factor is weighing in heavly.

[Aaeamdar]

I have loved #2 since the day you fisrt posted it.  I strongly believe it *is* the best solution to Warden (and Fury - though this would leave them too good atm) healing issues.  This is especially true because the core mechanics of the 3 specialty heals would be harmonized while each retains it's own "flavour".  It makes the "shared pool" mechanic instantly available for the group regen as well.  I don't think there is any real need to shift healing from the regen protion to the main portion of our direct heals if the Regen mechanic is fixed, but I won't care that much about it if it does happen. #1 is just returning to pre-CC.  As much as people clamoured that Warden healing was overpowered pre-CC the reality was that it was well balanced with Templars.  Having massive direct heals, however (pre-CU they were over twice the HPS at the same power cost as most other direct heals), leads to inherent imbalnaces in a very similar way that the Templar reactives are inherently imbalancing now. I thought I would add something to your sections. 1. Duststorm.  Raids: The Stun/KB proc was working on Epics before the patch from this weakend.  I have not tested it since, but if that's no longer the case, Duststorm at raids is of marginal value.  If the only thing it did not work on was the named it *might* be ok, but if it's everything flagged as "Epicx2, x3, x4" then the only thing you are getting from your being rooted is (assuming its not capped by other buffs already) is about 7.5% avoidance.  Further, since most raid mobs are Red or at worst Orange, the effectiveness of that avoidance buff can be overwhelmed by the inherent "To Hit" bonuses mobs get against considerably lower level targets. Groups: The opposite is true here.  You note the lack of effective debuffs, but I think Dust Storm may very well be the best "debuff" spell any priest has in group situations to mitigate incoming DPS.  It takes some managing, to be sure, but it is very very effective at reducing incoing DPS.  My suggestion for it would be to remove the root component and/or reduce the recast to something like 5 seconds.  I might even suggest that it should just be a toggle buff with no root.  The mana cost of Dust Storm is reasonably high that it can be the limiting factor of the spell rather than the root/recast.  Eitherway, doing something to make it more condusive to using it in situations where the group is constantly on the move (pretty typical of most of my grouping experiences) would do a lot for our ability to deal with spike damage in the first situation you discuss. 2. Spores.  Is it minor enough not to be mentioned?  Maybe.  Probably.  But I thought I'd toss it out there.   To me it's yet another example of a buff that has function in the MT group and is pretty much worthless outside of it.  The same is true of the Tree.  Most other calsses - even Templars - offer soemthign other than direct healing at raids when not in the MT group.  A Warden not int the MT group is essentially reduced to pressing 2 buttons - the Heal and the Arch Heal.  Maybe soemthing that could be adjusted for Wardens is allowing their buffs to be applied in Raid, not just in Group. 

[Eepop]

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Eileah wrote:

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Wow...I didn't realize it was that bad.  Half of what the others do in the instant portion? Thats just silly.  Maybe if it was in two ticks a second a part I could understand, but wow....thats bad. I truly hope this can get fixed, half the amount is just silly.  I never understood why all the regens in this game always take 10 seconds anyway.  In EQ1 there was a wide variety of regens, from long term buffs, to 10 seconds, to 3-4 seconds.  Who in the world ever said regeneration had to be slow?

[Jess]

Caerwyn, I just wanted to say excelent post. You summed it up great.

[Sorano]

Excellent post Caerwyn. I do however want to add something about Duststorm. As raid mobs can no longer be stunned/stifled, the stun effect on Duststorm is most likely gone, giving us absolutely no buffs worth being put in the MT group for. I haven't confirmed this for sure, but I doubt they would have left Duststorm's stun still effect epics, while no other class can.

[Kyralis]

Sorano- I think I edited in a point about Duststorm while you were replying. Feel free to reload and let me know if I should expand it more.

[Sorano]

Well I've been thinking about Duststorm and what can be done with it to make it and us more viable in raids, and I realised that we may have to take a leaf out of the devs book. They gave Furys the offensive druid the mother of all defensive buffs in Porcupine, so maybe Warden's need an offensive buff in return. I was thinking that they could modify Duststorm so that it has a 20% chance to reflect any damage back to the attacker. That would turn Duststorm into a very good avoidance buff, because it willl in effect give you 20% chance to avoid that 20k Ice Comet that would normally wipe your tank. Of course, they might have to put a dmg modifier on the reflection to stop it being too overpowered. Maybe limit it to 2k max dmg reflected or something. Anyway this was just a thought. Feel free to modify it.

[Khale]

Excellent post. Sony really needs to get something done about our heals and get it done now. The tiny change they made last week is a slap in the face, not a fix. No regen should take more than a few seconds to tick off it's full potential. 12 seconds is an eternity in combat, we need to be able to heal when the heal is needed not get the full effect 12 seconds later!

Whoever designed the way regen healing works post revamp made some serious blunders. Not only are we limited by the fact that shaman and cleric group heals are a pool of health, but we have to wait 12 seconds for the full effect of our heals? It's outrageous that they think this can actually work long term.

[Urkra]

Very well put Caerwyn. If only SOE had someone playing a Warden for real ....

[Eileah]

While I love the #2 idea of Caerwyn's I have to say in all honesty that I believe it is too complicated for the dev's to acomplish.

 

I especially would love to see this effect on our group regens, for them to not work from a collective pool as other classes do is an imbalance in my opinion, one which the devs seem to not care about or maybe they just can't get the regens to work any other way than they do now, I don't know which it is and they don't explain anything to us so who knows =/

 

I do know that there are other things that bother me, such as not having my ae nuke used in an HO, but my templar and mystic both have that option.

 

As a side note, I saw Urkrafts sig and it really made me think, so I called SOE to cancel my accounts, 3 access accounts and one SWG account, I'm done until they get this fixed.

 

/sigh

 

[Danluy]

Great job Caerwyn!!

One other key point is that Warden and Priest stacking issues need to be addressed.

Dan

[Mor]

Stacking issues, to the best of my knowledge, were addressed a few days ago. 

[Danluy]

I havn't tested them, but were Warden-Warden and specialty heal stacking issues fully addressed?

Dan

[Raijinn]

Caerwyn,

I thank you for the input and have jotted this down for notes should the need arises. I mainly wanted to let you all know that I am actively looking over the forums since this is such a heated debate.

I want to remind you that I can't make any promises and I am neigh the one that can make the changes but I can hear you all out.

[Spag]

Raijinn,

   We definitely appreciate the attention you have shown us and our issues.  We only hope you are able to convey our concerns to someone who can and will do something about it.   The warden population is dwindling, and we were an endangered species as it was.

[Faithes]

Forgive me, I did not read over the whole thing for I know much of it already.  But like I posted when you originally posted the bit about HoT that has a set heal amount and checks the targets health, doesn't that sound alot like a reactive?  Sure its tweaked some, but I do NOT want to be a cleric.  I'm a druid.  Honestly to have something so similar is like having the same class, and THAT is even more upsetting =(. 

[Kyralis]

How is that like a reactive? It still heals every second, in a regenerative fashion; it doesn't block damage like a ward or trigger when damage comes in as a reactive. It simply heals over time when necessary. I view it merely as a regenerative effect that only regenerates health for the target when the target actually has something to regenerate!

[Dalchar]

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Faithes wrote:
Forgive me, I did not read over the whole thing for I know much of it already.  But like I posted when you originally posted the bit about HoT that has a set heal amount and checks the targets health, doesn't that sound alot like a reactive?  Sure its tweaked some, but I do NOT want to be a cleric.  I'm a druid.  Honestly to have something so similar is like having the same class, and THAT is even more upsetting =(. 

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I was thinking the same thing.  Perhaps an alternative...

 

Group heal: Heals everyone for X hp per tick for up to total of Y HP over 12s.  Whatever hp isn't healed or used return Z power at termination, where Z = something like hp left / capacity * power to cast.   You could do the same for single target I suppose but clerics and shamen don't get the extra HP their reactives or wards could have healed if it had worn off before being utilized.  This way you at least retain some good efficiency and is still a regen.  However, this would likely end up nasty to try and code.

[Knarfst]

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Caerwyn wrote:
How is that like a reactive? It still heals every second, in a regenerative fashion; it doesn't block damage like a ward or trigger when damage comes in as a reactive. It simply heals over time when necessary. I view it merely as a regenerative effect that only regenerates health for the target when the target actually has something to regenerate!

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I think most of us that have played the game for any period of time would agree the current mechanics of regens will always make them inferior to wards or reactives.  What you propose Caerwyn I believe would put regens on par with the other special heals.  I think that is a good thing.  I would hope that SOE see's it that way also.

[Yiago]

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Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:

Caerwyn,

I thank you for the input and have jotted this down for notes should the need arises. I mainly wanted to let you all know that I am actively looking over the forums since this is such a heated debate.

I want to remind you that I can't make any promises and I am neigh the one that can make the changes but I can hear you all out.

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So only the Squeeky wheels gets the grease?  /sigh  Don't you guys have a list of issues, then prioritize them...you know say from the /bug /feedback list?  Why do you even utilize the forums, knowing dang well that only a 1/3 of the real population of your game uses let alone reads it.Now I am not bashing any Wardens or healers, heck I ditched my Templar due to LU13, he just plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sucks now!  But Make people happy, it will never happen, until you guys fix your Customer Service and the core bugs from back in Beta....Quit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing with the new [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!  /sigh  /frustrated as hell to see another CRM go down this road.