Inferiority of Reactives in endgame KoS?

[Ziggurat2]

In my experience throughout KoS content, it seems that reactive heals have become far inferior to HoTs and wards. They were already worse against boss mobs, but now even the trash mobs seem to beable to hit for 1000+ damage and attack slowly. Through my experience last night in the Halls of Fate, it seemed as though reactives were almost useless. A berserker was tanking(~50-55% absorb and ~45-50% avoidance). Because of the low numbers of high levels on my server(I play a templar on a new PvP server.) our group consisted of the 65+'s that were on, (69 Berserker, 69 Templar(me), 68 Swashbuckler, 67 Fury, 66 Swashbuckler, 65 Mystic) I have Adept III of my single target vitae, when the berserker would get hit without a ward he would take 3000+ damage, and although hits were rare enough that the fury or the mystic could probably solo heal the instance trash, I think I would've had quite some difficulty. I was having reactives wear off before they expired from hits even against ^^^+^^ groups. This was not because of lack of the berserker taking damage, but lack of the number of hits. Even with adept 3 reactives of both group and single target they would heal only about 900 per hit on average. The fact that some KoS mobs (that were blue to the berserker) can hit for more than three times that on a tank, I believe is unacceptable.

Throughout all of Desert of Flames I was able to function as a solo healer with my tank(Although we were over levelled at Poet's this time, my inquisitor and his shadowknight we played on the PvE server could handle it, and relatively we have about equal equipment to our others for our levels.)

I also believe that while the stun immunity on some boss mobs is necessary to keep difficulty at an acceptable rate.. I believe it may have been more viable to introduce immunity on bosses that works like the PvP system(Could only keep stunned 50% of the time, and most stuns have a reduced cooldown.) The inability to stun bosses hurts Templars a lot.

Has anyone else shared the same experience? Have any templars or inquisitors managed to solo heal a place such as halls of fate? If so what tank did you have and how good was his equipment?

[Toothless001]

I solo healed it as a level 68 Inquis, tank was a level 70 pally with good gear, 1 or 2 fabled and the rest legendary or rare.

 

2 most important factors in HOF are - removing debilitate asap and the tank having high mitigation/avoidance.

 

Even with those it's not easy, the best run I've been on was with my dirge and after clearing the zone my armour was at 70%.

 

[MokiCh]

The reason your tank is getting hit so hard in Halls of Fate is because the mobs in there use a trauma effect called Debilitate (or something like that) that lowers melee mitigation by insane amounts. In Halls of Fate you have to stay on the ball with those trauma cures. Whenever you see your tank get hit with a trauma effect, cure it straight away or you risk huge damage spikes that you can't keep up with. If you do that, and if you have a good tank, you should be perfectly able to solo heal that place at 69. It's going to be challenging, but it's certainly doable. If you want to play it safe, bring two healers.

[Ziggurat2]

I always cure debuffs the moment they appear. The issue is not debilitate. They are hitting far too hard. Perhaps the Berserker levelling from 69 to 70 will alleviate that? Perhaps not. I doublechecked his mitigation and avoidance with him and they were both about 50% while he was tanking. The mit is a bit low, again I'm on a PvP server so gear is limited. But they were hitting for nearly half his hitpoints and he was buffed to 8000 hp for the duration.

[Toothless001]

I think the tank on my run had Mit ~4.5k HP >10,000 and avoidance 60%

 

With a MT like that solo is possible, with less I'd use 2 healers but even that can be difficult.

 

I'm glad that the made it a difficult zone, everything else is just too easy.

[Antryg Mistrose]

Oh come on - 1) You are cross posting against the forum rules and 2) Mitigation of 50% is absolutely crap.  You cannot expect to have it easy in the hardest group zone in the game with substandard tank gear.

[Octilius]

It's definitely a tank issue.  I have no problem solo-healing all the way through HoF with my friends.  A tank around 67-68 should be fine as long as everyone in the group knows how to play.  The issue is a lot larger than just a tank/healer issue, its a group issue and how well they play together.  One thing that might help (that is use very often in HoF and labs is a macro that is: 1. /cancel_spellcast2. /useability Cure TraumaThat way -- even if I'm in the middle of casting that long group reactive spell or fanatical healing I can immediately cure trauma within a second.  And yes landing the cure trauma is more important than landing the heals -- thats what another healer is there for (in labs) and in HoF the mobs are pretty [Removed for Content].Also - remember to use your debuffs on the mobs.  The "raiders" mobs in HoF are the ones with Debilitate. 

Message Edited by Octilius on 05-03-2006 07:58 AM

[Ssinu]

HoF is meant to be one of the hardest zones in the game - for anyone (as stated by the devs at Fan Faire when a similar question came up about HoF). I can single heal there and it takes alot of work - I would also prefer to have 2 healers. Not because reactives are inferior, its just that there are a lot of effects the mobs have in this zone + what your team mates are doing that makes a difference on experiences there.A brigand in my guild tanked all of HoF, so if  can be done by a well equipped brigand, its not *too* hard. While its kind of hard to quantify how well reactives are vs wards/regens unless you play all six classes, I don't think thats the issue at hand in HoF. In fact, lets say out of wards/regens/reactives, one is like 25% less effective than the others -- (just as an example) it would take a lot of game data and analysis to prove that was the case. Then you would also have to add in the other benefits to each class - definitely not something that can just be felt by one person's experiences.Personally I like our class as it stands - I'll take any upgrades though :smileyvery-happy:, but I'm not sure that we are any more or less effective than other priests.

[Kadurm]

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Ssinurn wrote:
HoF is meant to be one of the hardest zones in the game - for anyone (as stated by the devs at Fan Faire when a similar question came up about HoF).

I can single heal there and it takes alot of work - I would also prefer to have 2 healers. Not because reactives are inferior, its just that there are a lot of effects the mobs have in this zone + what your team mates are doing that makes a difference on experiences there.

A brigand in my guild tanked all of HoF, so if  can be done by a well equipped brigand, its not *too* hard. While its kind of hard to quantify how well reactives are vs wards/regens unless you play all six classes, I don't think thats the issue at hand in HoF.

In fact, lets say out of wards/regens/reactives, one is like 25% less effective than the others -- (just as an example) it would take a lot of game data and analysis to prove that was the case. Then you would also have to add in the other benefits to each class - definitely not something that can just be felt by one person's experiences.

Personally I like our class as it stands - I'll take any upgrades though :smileyvery-happy:, but I'm not sure that we are any more or less effective than other priests.

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Yep, once again we face the issue of reactives for mitigation tanks vrs regens and wards on avoidance tanks.

I too can go into HoF as a single healer and do fairly well, provided I have a mitigation tank and not an avoidance one. (when using an avoidance tank, I prefer to be back up healer and let someone with wards or regen take main)

So, I dont think its a matter of our reactives not holding their own in the high end of the game as much as it's a combination of right spell, right gear, right tank.

[Robbpilot]

I've noticed reactives expiring on time while the tank has taken a lot of damage from a couple hits.  These were plate tanks too with pretty good avoidance though.

It does seem a bit out of balance now, regens and wards seem more effective pound for pound.

Wards that expire provide a direct heal for the remainder... it would be nice if reactives could do that too.  Would it be imbalancing if they did?

In addition, reactives are not as effective at keeping someone low on health alive in a crunch as wards and regen heals... somone with only 100 HP left is going to die with a master level reactive on them in a situation where a lower level ward can save them until another big direct heal can land.

Since the healing power itself is supposed to be pretty equal across all healers, I'm trying to see what benefits for reactives balance against these drawbacks, and the benefits of the other class heals.

The last thing is that templar and inquisitor reactives don't stack, and that takes a lot of the inquisitor's ability off the table in some situations.  What balances out that limitation?

[aislynn00]

While the zone certainly isn't easy, especially the named Skarize in the lab area and the Doomlord himself, HoF is definitely doable with a single templar healing.  My wife (who plays a templar) and I have done it several times, and while Khayne is better equipped than the norm and has most combat arts and buffs at Master I, he isn't even close to being fully raid-equipped.

 

Now, how difficult it is depends tremendously on the classes in your group, and not just the type and quality of tank: Stifles and stuns can make a challenging fight almost trivial.  If you play a templar, get Vigilant Benediction at Adept III or Master I; it is possibly the most underestimated templar spell, but it has certainly saved me many times.   If you play an inquisitor, debuff the mobs' offensive capabilities; it is one of your key strengths, so make the most of it.  And of course, if you don't cure debuffs immediately, you really are asking for a wipe.

Message Edited by aislynn00 on 05-08-2006 01:24 PM

[Echar Elocin]

recast timers on direct heals robb i can parse up with a templar doing reactives and thier directs.  i am assume you are reffering to a raid situation and hope u dont have a templar and a inquis in a single grp

[deanoh]

Our reactives are pretty useless IMHO on the end game.  I have gotten more use out of my group heal and direct heal
(albeit a gimped one that we got at 60) than I have gotten from my reactives.  They just no longer hold up in the long term.  Whats the largets anyone's had a crit happen for on thier direct heals anyways?  Even with Convert Ally, the best Ive seen so far is around 2200 with everything going my way.

[pebyr]

I have to agree that reactives aren't as much help really, unless you are in the mt group.  I spend most of my time dealing with ae's that can't really be jousted or avoided.  With the worst being deathtoll.   When an ae hits, since I tend to be the healer for a melee group(go figure), most of my time is spent with group curing and group healing.  Right now, for raids, i'd rather have reproachful alleviation at master than malevolent diatribe.  The ae spike damage is too great for the group reactive to do more than blunt the edge. 

[rek6779]

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Ssinurn wrote:
Personally I like our class as it stands - I'll take any upgrades though :smileyvery-happy:, but I'm not sure that we are any more or less effective than other priests.

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The think biggest thing we have going for us in the Inquest line. I can stay powered 2-3x longer than other priests and match them pretty close heal for heal point, but I would agree, I'll happily take upgrades.

[Robbpilot]

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rek6779 wrote:

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Ssinurn wrote:
Personally I like our class as it stands - I'll take any upgrades though :smileyvery-happy:, but I'm not sure that we are any more or less effective than other priests.

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The think biggest thing we have going for us in the Inquest line. I can stay powered 2-3x longer than other priests and match them pretty close heal for heal point, but I would agree, I'll happily take upgrades.

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I just got harrowing inquest the other day and it is incredible.  I have to agree that it is great.  Still, I have to say that the big HoT's and wards do seem more effective than reactives in a crunch.  The only thing that begins to balance it a bit is that I can survive an aggro a tiny bit better than the chain/leather wearers.  But, I thought SOE made a big effort to make all healers equal at healing... and that is not the case really.  Even if you have a situation where the numbers on all the heals add up the same in theory, in practice it becomes quite different.

[zeeke]

The worst thing is that now that defiler wards work so well in raids that my reactive hardly ever go off. And if grouped with a defiler in just grinding, my reactive never go off. I just sit and target heal. Kinda frustrating but ohwell. My first character was a defiler so Im glad they go fixed but now they really kill the reactives. Oh and defilers can single target heal for more

 

 

[Sokolov]

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zeeke wrote:

The worst thing is that now that defiler wards work so well in raids that my reactive hardly ever go off. And if grouped with a defiler in just grinding, my reactive never go off. I just sit and target heal. Kinda frustrating but ohwell. My first character was a defiler so Im glad they go fixed but now they really kill the reactives. Oh and defilers can single target heal for more

 

 

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As a Defiler, a situation where my Wards render your Reactives nearly useless would cause me to wonder why we even have two healers.  Usually in such cases I stop Warding altogether and just debuff, it's more efficient. Raids are a bit trickier tho, admittedly. As for Reactives overall, I believe it is sometimes overstated the amount of efficiency lost when dealing with slower hits.   My studies show that even with a 2s damage interval Reactives are still more efficient than Regens.  It is only beyond around 2.5s per hit that Reactives lose ground.  In my experience, mobs that hit that slow are few and far between, and most raid targets seem to hit once per second.

[Larcain]

Hmmm. I am sort of in the middle on this one. In most of the zones, I do alright as a prime healer in the group. I run into a few instances where my reactives are getting over-run by the damage the mobs dish, but I simply change tactics. I use my reactive keep the tank from dying while i cycle through my direct heals as fast as possible. What I don't like about that is that there are times when this tactic just does not work. Our direct heals are simply not large enough (and yeah, I picked my direct heal for my 60ish master 2 spell) to make up for how fast our reactive is over-run. It does get dicey. Since I don't play other healers, and haven't  played other healers, I don't really know if those with runes or HOTS run into simiar issues for similiar (but obviously, somewhat different) reasons.

[WinterAnar]

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Sokolov wrote: As for Reactives overall, I believe it is sometimes overstated the amount of efficiency lost when dealing with slower hits.   My studies show that even with a 2s damage interval Reactives are still more efficient than Regens.  It is only beyond around 2.5s per hit that Reactives lose ground.  In my experience, mobs that hit that slow are few and far between, and most raid targets seem to hit once per second.

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Damage interval or not, someone with a regen can have 2 HoT spells on the same target at the same time and their normal heals have a HoT part as well.  So the ammt healed is far greater.Wards give you time to spot heal any damage that got through and how often does the tank get hit more than once or twice till the new ward is up?Reactives don't heal for enough to cover a normal hit...That is the problem.  If our group and single target reactive was able to go off at the same time instead of one waiting for the other to run out, that would fix the problem.  I mean, druids can do it, so why can't clerics?

Message Edited by WinterAnarth on 06-09-2006 10:33 AM

[Shadus]

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Robbpilot wrote:

I've noticed reactives expiring on time while the tank has taken a lot of damage from a couple hits.  These were plate tanks too with pretty good avoidance though.

It does seem a bit out of balance now, regens and wards seem more effective pound for pound.

Wards that expire provide a direct heal for the remainder... it would be nice if reactives could do that too.  Would it be imbalancing if they did?

In addition, reactives are not as effective at keeping someone low on health alive in a crunch as wards and regen heals... somone with only 100 HP left is going to die with a master level reactive on them in a situation where a lower level ward can save them until another big direct heal can land.

Since the healing power itself is supposed to be pretty equal across all healers, I'm trying to see what benefits for reactives balance against these drawbacks, and the benefits of the other class heals.

The last thing is that templar and inquisitor reactives don't stack, and that takes a lot of the inquisitor's ability off the table in some situations.  What balances out that limitation?

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Just for reference wardens suffer from the same problem with tanks having low hp... we just don't have a way to heal them up.  We have to wait 2s for next bit of heal to tick... and in some ways we have it even worse than the cleric classes because our direct heals are gimped by having a regen component on the end which reduces total heal output, which is critial especially when the damage spikes.  Furies are better off than wardens when damage starts seriously spiking because they have back in the fray.  Wardens and Furies have the same problem with stacking heals also... they don't stack.  Wards are probally the most universally effective heal period.  Regens suffer from almost all the probelms reactives suffer from really.... both are very situational compared to wards.

[Shadus]

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WinterAnarth wrote:

Damage interval or not, someone with a regen can have 2 HoT spells on the same target at the same time and their normal heals have a HoT part as well.  So the ammt healed is far greater.A cleric can have 2 reactives on a tank at a time.  Our direct heals do have a hot part... a hot part that is SUBTRACTED from the total heal ammount.  My direct healed ammount is massively smaller than a shaman or cleric because of the hot portion... which makes it bloody hard to keep tank alive during damage spikes.Wards give you time to spot heal any damage that got through and how often does the tank get hit more than once or twice till the new ward is up?Reactives don't heal for enough to cover a normal hit...Neither do regens That is the problem.  If our group and single target reactive was able to go off at the same time instead of one waiting for the other to run out, that would fix the problem.  I mean, druids can do it, so why can't clerics?Are you absolutely sure they can't?  It's been a while since i played my templar, but last I checked his group and solo reactive DID go off at the same time if both were up.

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Message Edited by Shadus on 06-10-2006 10:19 AM

[WinterAnar]

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Shadus wrote:

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That is the problem.  If our group and single target reactive was able to go off at the same time instead of one waiting for the other to run out, that would fix the problem.  I mean, druids can do it, so why can't clerics?Are you absolutely sure they can't?  It's been a while since i played my templar, but last I checked his group and solo reactive DID go off at the same time if both were up.

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Unless thay changed it back.  AFAIK reactives have just loaded and not gone off at the same time for a while. (I'm going to guess LU13)  There is the off chance I'm wrong, but I've never seen a health bar behave like they were both going off at once.And I'll agree that the part about having about half our initial direct heal ammt is a pain.  But doing some number crunching with the beta buffed guys on test, druid single target heals are a bit more effecient, however cleric reactives are apparently insanely more effecient than regens.  However a warden also had 1500 more power.  So I guess it makes up for our lack of power self buffing.And my expan beta Inquis got for lack of a better work spwnd (I hate typing that) by some creatures the Warden didn't even break a sweat on.  Made a defiler too, they were beatable but not easy.  That Warden made it look like childs play.  Used the exact same tactics, race and bonuses to stats and all for all 3 characters too.  I'm not sure if it was the extra eva from the leather and higher agi or higher dps or whatever, but man...

Message Edited by WinterAnarth on 06-12-2006 11:29 PM

[Sokolov]

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WinterAnarth wrote:

Damage interval or not, someone with a regen can have 2 HoT spells on the same target at the same time and their normal heals have a HoT part as well.  So the ammt healed is far greater.

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Only Wardens have a HoT component to their Direct Heals.  In Tier 6, the total amount healed after 17.5 seconds is ~4800 for all Priests except the Fury who sit at ~3800.  The total amount healed over 60 seconds of Direct Heal spam is ~12k for Defilers (2000 power used), Templars and Furies (2400 power used).  Mystics and Inquisitors sit at 14k for 2700 power and Wardens are at 17k using 2900 power.Full healing potential for Special Heals (T6 again) are as follows:WardsHeal Potential: 2931Health/Power: 13.29Health/Second: 222.60ReactivesHeal Potential: 3934.5Health/Power: 17.84Health/Second: 299.11RegenHeal Potential: 3351Health/Power: 16.66Health/Second: 278.00This is under "perfect efficiency" and obviously does not happen in reality.  Ironically, BOTH Druids AND Clerics claim the OTHER special heal is more efficient in general use (there is no question that Wards reach potential easier than the other two types).

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WinterAnarth wrote:

Wards give you time to spot heal any damage that got through and how often does the tank get hit more than once or twice till the new ward is up?

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Wards pay for this with decreased maximum efficiency and low heal amounts per cast - thus there exists situations in which incoming DPS will be beyond a Shaman's ability to cover but still coverable by a Cleric or Druid.In any case, I believe your issue is one of trivializing of encounters rather than of priest design.  If your tank takes sufficient damage there should be plenty of room after the Ward is down for other heals to kick in.

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WinterAnarth wrote:

Reactives don't heal for enough to cover a normal hit...

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Neither do Wards in raid situations.

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WinterAnarth wrote:

That is the problem.  If our group and single target reactive was able to go off at the same time instead of one waiting for the other to run out, that would fix the problem.  I mean, druids can do it, so why can't clerics?

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They do.  They will also fire through a Ward and in conjunction with all other Reactive proc effects.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 06-15-2006 06:57 AM

[Demoniac]

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Sokolov wrote:

Only Wardens have a HoT component to their Direct Heals.  In Tier 6, the total amount healed after 17.5 seconds is ~4800 for all Priests except the Fury who sit at ~3800.  The total amount healed over 60 seconds of Direct Heal spam is ~12k for Defilers (2000 power used), Templars and Furies (2400 power used).  Mystics and Inquisitors sit at 14k for 2700 power and Wardens are at 17k using 2900 power.

Full healing potential for Special Heals (T6 again) are as follows:

Wards
Heal Potential: 2931
Health/Power: 13.29
Health/Second: 222.60

Reactives
Heal Potential: 3934.5
Health/Power: 17.84
Health/Second: 299.11

Regen
Heal Potential: 3351
Health/Power: 16.66
Health/Second: 278.00

This is under "perfect efficiency" and obviously does not happen in reality.  Ironically, BOTH Druids AND Clerics claim the OTHER special heal is more efficient in general use (there is no question that Wards reach potential easier than the other two types).

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I agree with your point. 100% agree.. but you can't count the HPS ( Heal Per seconds ) and HPP ( Heal Per Power ) like this way. It doesn't work at least it doesn't work in this case.

[Shadus]

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WinterAnarth wrote:

And my expan beta Inquis got for lack of a better work spwnd (I hate typing that) by some creatures the Warden didn't even break a sweat on.  Made a defiler too, they were beatable but not easy.  That Warden made it look like childs play.  Used the exact same tactics, race and bonuses to stats and all for all 3 characters too.  I'm not sure if it was the extra eva from the leather and higher agi or higher dps or whatever, but man...

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The dps is a big deal.  Warden is better dps than most other priest classes soloing... especially due to the doggies and tree.  A fury is even meaner yet.  The one thing I generally notice on the heavier armor priests is... they don't have as much ac as i do... which is strange since my items don't give as much ac per piece as theirs.  It's fairly common for me to examine clerics and shamans and see an ac 200-300 points under mine... agility far under mine... and wisdom under mine.  Of course I also see other priests running around wearing cloth gloves (FT1) and cloth hats (FT3) etc.  If it isn't the best armor type i can wear and with ac appropriate to my level... i don't wear it.  Ac isn't a huge deal in groups, it is however a huge deal soloing.