Moral Decision

BlueQui · 01-13-2005, 06:28 AM

OK, here's the scenerio:The group is you (healer), one guardian (MT) and 4 DPSYou're in a great group. You're fighting ^^Orange MOBs and getting tons of XPYou get a bad add and now have 6 ^ORangesYou know if everything goes well, you can still kill everything (although you'll be close to out of power when it happens).Suddenly, your assasin gets one of the ^^Oranges on him and takes 5 hits...and has a red health bar.What do you do?Do you switch from the MT (who has the other 5 on him) and slap a reactive heal on the assasin? Do you slap an Arch-healing on the assasin? Do you start a slow cast time Soothing Sermon or an area heal?Do you let the assasin die and keep the MT alive better? (Knowing you may need the 3000 or 4000 damage the assasin can deal to make it through)?What do you do?Now, imagine if it's the second healer who gets an agro...do you save him (and maybe let the MT die)...what if the 2nd healer is OOP?Now imagine if it's your enchanter who gets the agro?...do you save him (and maybe let MT die...what if enchanters is OOP?I ask this because I've had to make this decision 3 times in the past few weeks. One time, everyone lived. One time, we wiped. One time, only 2 people died.

Azam · 01-13-2005, 07:51 AM

Wow, my head hurts from thinking about this one. I know that my first reaction would be to try to keep everyone alive. In most of these cases that could mean that the group gets wiped though. One thing I have learned though is at all costs never neglect the MT. If he goes your normally toast. Also I think a reactive would be the wrong thing to put on the assassin. I think it has been most people's finding that it only adds to that persons aggro. I am really glad you posted this because I now have a different mindset as to how I may react to any of those situations.

polysyllabi · 01-13-2005, 08:15 AM

Marvelous Questions

5 stars for you for posting them...and we all have to make these snap decisions at some point.

From experience, here are my thoughts.

-If you are in a group wipe possible situation, and 1 of your 3 dps is about to die:

I would let him die. Pulling your attention from the MT risks the whole Group. Even if the Tank lives as long as it takes to save the dps, you spent power to save the dps, and you may have to use your less efficient heals to pull the tank out of the red.

So let the dps die, cause once he's dead the mob will return to the tank where he belongs. Then, you can combat rez the dps.

-If the near dead groupie is the enchanter:

save him, save him fast, and scream for the tank to pull agro asap. If the chanter dies, anything he has mezed will break free. And if, with mezzes up, it's difficult enough to be a dilema, imagine if the number of mobs hitting the tank is doubled or tripled.

Chanters won't last nearly as long as a tank, so they need immeadiate attention, especially since in tough spots they use "consume ego" a lot (hp into power)

-If the near dead groupie is a healer:

Then heal him. Do you really want to do it alone? : )

Of course, if he's oop ... well, same as the dps. Let him die then combat rez him once the mob re-agros the tank.

But when he dies, be aware that his buffs go with him.

...but when it calls to heal the groupie, what should you use?

-Reactive heals?: Absolutely not. Everytime they "heal" him it will give him more agro. And they are useless once the mob is taunted off.

-Group Reactive Heals?: Bad for similar reasons. Worse because of cast time and power consumption

-Insta-Heals?: Good Choice. It will instantly give breathing room and can be very quick to take effect. Of course, if the mob isn't taunted off quick, it will be costly to your power.

-Group insta heals?: Another good choice. True they cost more, but ... a) you don't have to target the particular individual, which can at times SAVE time. b) if you have mages which are using hp->mana conversion spells this will boost their hp. A mage at full hp will deal more liberal dps, thus shortening the length of the fight and the amount of time you're on the spot.

So in conclusion,

Unless the player is vital to survival (healer with good power left, a chanter) then let them die; THAT debt is easy to work off. And if you must heal them to ensure the survival of the group, use insta heals only, and use at your discretion...just remind the tank to pull that ag off fast, though i suspect the victim will be the most vocal on THAT subject : )

You knew this already, but from a fellow healer, yes it is totally ethical to let one group member die to save the group. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE will complaign in the end. They will all just be thankful to avoid a group wipe.

Ender · 01-13-2005, 08:16 AM

Main job is to keep the MT alive so he can pull the aggro off of assy. Keep the assy alive for a few seconds for the tank to do just that. If the tank can't pull aggro, slap a instant-reactive-group reactive combo on the assy. It all depends on how the battle is going, if your group has the upper hand. The assassin also has evac so that maybe why you might want to save him. Otherwise, if it's getting really tough, the assassin must die and take one for the team. Besides it's not really a moral question when you all share the debt.

Message Edited by EnderMX on 01-12-2005 07:22 PM

BlueQui · 01-13-2005, 11:06 AM

Yes so far everyone's picking what I pick (after experience).In this situation, I was literally Chain Casting FoR, Arch-Healing, BoV, Combat Heal, FoR, Arch-Healing, BoV, etc... to keep MT alive.The funny part was, we had done this before with 6 ^^Orange and MADE it, but I was OOP at end of fight(of course), and no MOB agro'd to the DPS.First time this happened (different groups, but similar situations), I laid an FoR on the DPS thinking it would take 350-500 in damage from him, and maybe even GIVE him some health after being hit a few times. I also figured MT would get the agro if I just gave the DPS a few more seconds to live.I was wrong. First time, the whole group wiped because I switched targets, saved the DPS's life for 5 more hits, but missed an FoR on the MT, he went into red health, DPS died, one more agro on the MT...and the MT died. The rest of the group followed.Second time this happened (different group, but similar situation), I used area heal.This was wrong. I saved the DPS's life for 3 more hits, he died, I used enough power to have been able to heal MT with a reactive heal 2-4 times. The DPS died, the MT had 2 more to go...and I was OOP. The MT died. Luckly, we had a SK who established agro on the other 2 MOBs who were left. Group lived, but two people died.Third time this happened (different group, but similar situation), I let the DPS die.This was correct. The MT got agro after DPS died from last baddie. I was able to keep MT's heal up. I even had power left after fight. Also, trust your MT to get agro from the DPS. If he can, he can. If he can't, he can't. But assume he'll do his job of agroing, you do your job of keeping MT alive so group doesn't wipe.As far as enchanter goes, save them...everytime. Try to use combat heal and arch-healing. Drop a FoR if that's not enough...but save them. Trust the MT to get agro from the enchanter sooner or later, but keep him alive. Heck, the breeze alone makes even an OOP enchanter worth saving.As far as the healer goes save them if they have mana. Make them take one for the team if they don't. I expect the same from them.

Xilli · 01-13-2005, 04:08 PM

I have told people that if I observe taunt not removing the mob and them continuing to burn power that they will be allowed to die.

Good time to evacuate.

Not that we have any control over when that happens. I expect one of the group rouges or the shadowknight will punch the group out to the safe spot in the zone. Before going deep into an area I make sure to tell folks its OK to evac. Though survival instinct on their part makes my suggestion typicaly moot.

who to heal though. wow. I make this call very often though I dont give it alot of thought. I have found that I let people die who are not the main tank, given the group wipe situation, unless its the last person able to evacuate. I like groups with the Shadowknight since I get the best of both worlds, a MT who can evacuate! Then he/she is my sole concern. Typicaly its the fault of the DPS drawing too much aggro playing the "burn power" game or failing to assist properly.

Tanks DO NOT kill mobs! The DPS and direct dammage casters do! Save your power for your main function of getting and maintaining aggro!

If you pull with a bow, TAUNT when the mob arrives! A 'Throat Slit' or BoR or Iniquity will over take the aggro score of the bow shot. If your tank pulls with a bow...wait for the taunt or a few rounds of meele! Everyone can do something to manage aggro and ultimately make sure I have enough power to keep the party alive so we can trek deeper and see more content.

I have found alot of people have no idea how to handle higher level areas. It aint antonica out there in Zek or the Feerott. I find MTs burning power on their dammage stunts when IMO it should be chain casting taunts and shout along with managing the HO wheel. I find DPS not casting their aggro reduction, and Wizzies/Warlocks actually UNDER casting once the MT has aggro locked up. Worse yet is the healers dropping dammage spells vs managing debuffs and healing power.

Why does the second healer automaticaly assume they get to play Merlin when the group already has a wizzard? You're the second HEALER.

In a tight group wipe fight every last iota of power matters. I know Im flaming and ultimately not perfect, but there are may reasons for group wipe and I typicaly dont blame the mobs.

I know I know. blah blah flame flame. Im done now SMILEY

Hecate

Brotherhood of Arms

Xilli · 01-13-2005, 04:08 PM

I have told people that if I observe taunt not removing the mob and them continuing to burn power that they will be allowed to die.

Good time to evacuate.

Not that we have any control over when that happens. I expect one of the group rouges or the shadowknight will punch the group out to the safe spot in the zone. Before going deep into an area I make sure to tell folks its OK to evac. Though survival instinct on their part makes my suggestion typicaly moot.

who to heal though. wow. I make this call very often though I dont give it alot of thought. I have found that I let people die who are not the main tank, given the group wipe situation, unless its the last person able to evacuate. I like groups with the Shadowknight since I get the best of both worlds, a MT who can evacuate! Then he/she is my sole concern. Typicaly its the fault of the DPS drawing too much aggro playing the "burn power" game or failing to assist properly.

Tanks DO NOT kill mobs! The DPS and direct dammage casters do! Save your power for your main function of getting and maintaining aggro!

If you pull with a bow, TAUNT when the mob arrives! A 'Throat Slit' or BoR or Iniquity will over take the aggro score of the bow shot. If your tank pulls with a bow...wait for the taunt or a few rounds of meele! Everyone can do something to manage aggro and ultimately make sure I have enough power to keep the party alive so we can trek deeper and see more content.

I have found alot of people have no idea how to handle higher level areas. It aint antonica out there in Zek or the Feerott. I find MTs burning power on their dammage stunts when IMO it should be chain casting taunts and shout along with managing the HO wheel. I find DPS not casting their aggro reduction, and Wizzies/Warlocks actually UNDER casting once the MT has aggro locked up. Worse yet is the healers dropping dammage spells vs managing debuffs and healing power.

Why does the second healer automaticaly assume they get to play Merlin when the group already has a wizzard? You're the second HEALER.

In a tight group wipe fight every last iota of power matters. I know Im flaming and ultimately not perfect, but there are may reasons for group wipe and I typicaly dont blame the mobs.

I know I know. blah blah flame flame. Im done now SMILEY

Hecate

Brotherhood of Arms

RadricTyc · 01-13-2005, 08:42 PM

Xillith wrote:

...

Good time to evacuate.

...

Hecate

Brotherhood of Arms

Exactly.

First scenario: Assassin pulls ^^ orange agro in a bad pull with 6 adds.

What I would do is slap a reactive heal on the assassin, since it casts fast, and tell him to evac. Then I would do a small heal on the tank followed by a large heal as we wait for the evac to arrive.

Second Scenario: Second Healer is OOP and has agro.

Well since he won't be helping me heal and healing him could cause me to pull agro afterwards, I let him die and stay focused on the main tank. If he had a regen spell on him (from an enchanter let's say) then I might reconsider that, but I would probably see whether that spell was enough to give him the power to save his own hide.

Third scenario: Chanter pulls agro and is OOP.

Again, he will be useless as DPS and useless for mezzing unless he has power. If he has a power regen spell on himself, I might save him since he could potentially feed me power later for keeping the heals up. If he doesn't, I would probably let him go in order to keep the tank up.

In all of the scenarios, if I had enough time to get off a group reactive like soothing sermon, I might choose that instead. Also, if there is the possibility of evac I would choose that first and foremost.

MissFritz · 01-13-2005, 11:57 PM

I don't think anything needs to be added to this discussion really, I just wanted to add that I don't consider this to be a 'moral decision' in the least, simply a matter of practicality. Particularly with the advent of group debt you simply need to make a decision that will benefit the whole group. I believe everyone who has posted has touched on that.

Gronker · 01-14-2005, 01:47 AM

MissFritzie wrote:

I don't think anything needs to be added to this discussion really, I just wanted to add that I don't consider this to be a 'moral decision' in the least, simply a matter of practicality. Particularly with the advent of group debt you simply need to make a decision that will benefit the whole group. I believe everyone who has posted has touched on that.

Great summary. There is actually alot to balance out when making decisions on who to heal, its impossible to make blanket statements anyways. Split second decision-making on the team's welfare when the goin gets tough makes playing the Inq a blast.

MilkToa · 01-14-2005, 02:05 AM

BlueQuick wrote:
OK, here's the scenerio:

The group is you (healer), one guardian (MT) and 4 DPS
You're in a great group. You're fighting ^^Orange MOBs and getting tons of XP
You get a bad add and now have 6 ^ORanges
You know if everything goes well, you can still kill everything (although you'll be close to out of power when it happens).

Suddenly, your assasin gets one of the ^^Oranges on him and takes 5 hits...and has a red health bar.

What do you do?

Do you switch from the MT (who has the other 5 on him) and slap a reactive heal on the assasin? Do you slap an Arch-healing on the assasin?
Do you start a slow cast time Soothing Sermon or an area heal?

Do you let the assasin die and keep the MT alive better? (Knowing you may need the 3000 or 4000 damage the assasin can deal to make it through)?

What do you do?

Now, imagine if it's the second healer who gets an agro...do you save him (and maybe let the MT die)...what if the 2nd healer is OOP?

Now imagine if it's your enchanter who gets the agro?...do you save him (and maybe let MT die...what if enchanters is OOP?

I ask this because I've had to make this decision 3 times in the past few weeks. One time, everyone lived. One time, we wiped. One time, only 2 people died.

None of the above. You say 'evac' so one of your scouts can get you the hell out of there.

MacAll · 01-14-2005, 03:15 AM

You have 4 dps, one of them has to have evac, so you leave.

Can't leave? Throw out a Contrite to share the heals between the MT and Assassin but maintain focus on the MT, or if you can, toss a Redemption on the tank and let him bounce, turn to the assassin and give him a reactive.

Letting the assassin die is not the answer, because that prolongs the combat further, which requires more power you don't have.

polysyllabi · 01-14-2005, 09:37 AM

Evac regardless???

don't run so soon friends!

the game isn't over yet, 1 dead dps is like what, 2% shared debt?...and if you can maintain the rest of the agro on the tank, and keep him alive long enough to finish the mobs...well, those orange mobs will erase the debt and you won't have to trek back.

Evac is great... but as someone touched on earlier, nothing is a blanket solution. You can normally stay a little longer and feel things out.

Many a time I had thought I'd be screaming for evac in 15sec, only to discover that everyone else in the group picked up the pace, pulled the slack and turned the tide.

Good luck to all! And have fun! : )

VonStein · 01-14-2005, 11:04 AM

NOpe... missed.. it...

don't need to evac in the third situation... you had an SK..... Graven Image would have pulled the aggro off the DPS....

This is one of the main reasons I like having a GOOD SK in the group.... if they pay attention they can easily save a caster or DPS if they pull aggro...

Bobbubski · 01-14-2005, 07:41 PM

good topic and good discussion.

Celesti · 01-14-2005, 08:34 PM

Well, I'm a level 36 inquis and what i'll do in that senario is to stack BoV and FoR on the MT and do a MInister Wounds on the group member who's being attacked and cast a FoR on him. And depending on the power available, i'll hit the mob with Retailiation and Mark of Pawns so group mates will be self healed when they are being attacked.

I've never used Contrite Grace and Penitent's Sermon due to the slow casting time and the amount of power required to cast it.

And it's good to cast FoR/BoV on chanters before anything drastic happens.

Being on third person's view helps alot and different spells would be used depending if the MT can grab aggro back.

ArivenGemini · 01-15-2005, 01:05 AM

BlueQuick wrote:OK, here's the scenerio:The group is you (healer), one guardian (MT) and 4 DPSYou're in a great group. You're fighting ^^Orange MOBs and getting tons of XPYou get a bad add and now have 6 ^ORangesYou know if everything goes well, you can still kill everything (although you'll be close to out of power when it happens).Suddenly, your assasin gets one of the ^^Oranges on him and takes 5 hits...and has a red health bar.What do you do?

The way I look at it, when the assassin pulled agro he should have commenced doing what he can to reduce agro and stop adding agro. Any skills he has that lowers hate should be used, he should turn off autoattack, and if desperate he should (though it does add hate) fire off anything he has that will increase his defenses.You really need to stick with the MT, since his task is getting that agro off the assassin, and as such isn't focusing on the others.. which means if he may likely be with his back to the others and may increase in damge he takes.. (no shield, no ripostes). Keep that tank alive to keep YOU alive.Looking at it from the tanks side, my job would be to stay alive, keep agro and keep the healer alive. If it comes down to a wipe possiblity and we have no evac then my job is to keep the agro long enough for everyone to get away (or at least the healer, or a scout with stealth who has a "break in case of dead healer" token).Those spur of the moment decisions are stressful at times, but if you have a clear strategy that you stick to then you will do good. If tactics dont work, then work on new ones. Little things can have big impact.. like running if you get agro. The tank will be trying to get that off you and if you run away he has great problems. In that case unless that person is critical, that person would die in any group I am tanking with... I risk a party wipe if I go chasing, whereas if he dies we have a chance to get him out with a rev.

MacAll · 01-15-2005, 04:13 AM

Additionally, have the assasin evade (as mentioned above) and if your tank is SK, have them FD the assassin.

Tseram · 01-15-2005, 04:56 AM

I run into too many Assassins who absolutely *LOVE* to draw aggro. They do it over and over and think it's funny. Until I let them die.Personally, I feel it is part of a Scout's job to watch their aggro and not do something stupid. I don't feel bad about it at all.Of course, I'm an evil Inquisitor...

MacAll · 01-15-2005, 05:06 AM

I never let anyone die, though not through any altruism on my part.

1. I don't want the debt

2. I don't want to listen to the whining of the group because I let them have debt too

And a good tank can prevent the assassin from getting debt, no matter how hard they want it...it's their job. It's how assassin's one-up tanks, stealing agro from them to show how much they suck. My friends who are really good tanks laugh at them.

Edit: One thing to note, letting people die is the quickest way to get a bad rep as a healer. No one wants to be sitting and wondering if the cleric disagrees with their playing style and will punish them for it. It breaks the bonds of trust, which is integral to the best group experiences. If the tank can't trust you to keep him alive, he'll not group with you and find someone he can trust, and the same goes for the other players.

Just my 2 copper

Message Edited by MacAllen on 01-14-2005 04:08 PM

01-13-2005, 06:28 AM	#1
BlueQui Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 65	OK, here's the scenerio:The group is you (healer), one guardian (MT) and 4 DPSYou're in a great group. You're fighting ^^Orange MOBs and getting tons of XPYou get a bad add and now have 6 ^ORangesYou know if everything goes well, you can still kill everything (although you'll be close to out of power when it happens).Suddenly, your assasin gets one of the ^^Oranges on him and takes 5 hits...and has a red health bar.What do you do?Do you switch from the MT (who has the other 5 on him) and slap a reactive heal on the assasin? Do you slap an Arch-healing on the assasin? Do you start a slow cast time Soothing Sermon or an area heal?Do you let the assasin die and keep the MT alive better? (Knowing you may need the 3000 or 4000 damage the assasin can deal to make it through)?What do you do?Now, imagine if it's the second healer who gets an agro...do you save him (and maybe let the MT die)...what if the 2nd healer is OOP?Now imagine if it's your enchanter who gets the agro?...do you save him (and maybe let MT die...what if enchanters is OOP?I ask this because I've had to make this decision 3 times in the past few weeks. One time, everyone lived. One time, we wiped. One time, only 2 people died. __________________

01-13-2005, 08:15 AM	#3
polysyllabi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	Marvelous Questions 5 stars for you for posting them...and we all have to make these snap decisions at some point. From experience, here are my thoughts. -If you are in a group wipe possible situation, and 1 of your 3 dps is about to die: I would let him die. Pulling your attention from the MT risks the whole Group. Even if the Tank lives as long as it takes to save the dps, you spent power to save the dps, and you may have to use your less efficient heals to pull the tank out of the red. So let the dps die, cause once he's dead the mob will return to the tank where he belongs. Then, you can combat rez the dps. -If the near dead groupie is the enchanter: save him, save him fast, and scream for the tank to pull agro asap. If the chanter dies, anything he has mezed will break free. And if, with mezzes up, it's difficult enough to be a dilema, imagine if the number of mobs hitting the tank is doubled or tripled. Chanters won't last nearly as long as a tank, so they need immeadiate attention, especially since in tough spots they use "consume ego" a lot (hp into power) -If the near dead groupie is a healer: Then heal him. Do you really want to do it alone? : ) Of course, if he's oop ... well, same as the dps. Let him die then combat rez him once the mob re-agros the tank. But when he dies, be aware that his buffs go with him. ...but when it calls to heal the groupie, what should you use? -Reactive heals?: Absolutely not. Everytime they "heal" him it will give him more agro. And they are useless once the mob is taunted off. -Group Reactive Heals?: Bad for similar reasons. Worse because of cast time and power consumption -Insta-Heals?: Good Choice. It will instantly give breathing room and can be very quick to take effect. Of course, if the mob isn't taunted off quick, it will be costly to your power. -Group insta heals?: Another good choice. True they cost more, but ... a) you don't have to target the particular individual, which can at times SAVE time. b) if you have mages which are using hp->mana conversion spells this will boost their hp. A mage at full hp will deal more liberal dps, thus shortening the length of the fight and the amount of time you're on the spot. So in conclusion, Unless the player is vital to survival (healer with good power left, a chanter) then let them die; THAT debt is easy to work off. And if you must heal them to ensure the survival of the group, use insta heals only, and use at your discretion...just remind the tank to pull that ag off fast, though i suspect the victim will be the most vocal on THAT subject : ) You knew this already, but from a fellow healer, yes it is totally ethical to let one group member die to save the group. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE will complaign in the end. They will all just be thankful to avoid a group wipe. __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blackguard wrote: We aren't sleeping until the servers are up. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

01-13-2005, 11:06 AM	#5
BlueQui Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 65	Yes so far everyone's picking what I pick (after experience).In this situation, I was literally Chain Casting FoR, Arch-Healing, BoV, Combat Heal, FoR, Arch-Healing, BoV, etc... to keep MT alive.The funny part was, we had done this before with 6 ^^Orange and MADE it, but I was OOP at end of fight(of course), and no MOB agro'd to the DPS.First time this happened (different groups, but similar situations), I laid an FoR on the DPS thinking it would take 350-500 in damage from him, and maybe even GIVE him some health after being hit a few times. I also figured MT would get the agro if I just gave the DPS a few more seconds to live.I was wrong. First time, the whole group wiped because I switched targets, saved the DPS's life for 5 more hits, but missed an FoR on the MT, he went into red health, DPS died, one more agro on the MT...and the MT died. The rest of the group followed.Second time this happened (different group, but similar situation), I used area heal.This was wrong. I saved the DPS's life for 3 more hits, he died, I used enough power to have been able to heal MT with a reactive heal 2-4 times. The DPS died, the MT had 2 more to go...and I was OOP. The MT died. Luckly, we had a SK who established agro on the other 2 MOBs who were left. Group lived, but two people died.Third time this happened (different group, but similar situation), I let the DPS die.This was correct. The MT got agro after DPS died from last baddie. I was able to keep MT's heal up. I even had power left after fight. Also, trust your MT to get agro from the DPS. If he can, he can. If he can't, he can't. But assume he'll do his job of agroing, you do your job of keeping MT alive so group doesn't wipe.As far as enchanter goes, save them...everytime. Try to use combat heal and arch-healing. Drop a FoR if that's not enough...but save them. Trust the MT to get agro from the enchanter sooner or later, but keep him alive. Heck, the breeze alone makes even an OOP enchanter worth saving.As far as the healer goes save them if they have mana. Make them take one for the team if they don't. I expect the same from them. __________________

01-13-2005, 04:08 PM	#6
Xilli Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	I have told people that if I observe taunt not removing the mob and them continuing to burn power that they will be allowed to die. Good time to evacuate. Not that we have any control over when that happens. I expect one of the group rouges or the shadowknight will punch the group out to the safe spot in the zone. Before going deep into an area I make sure to tell folks its OK to evac. Though survival instinct on their part makes my suggestion typicaly moot. who to heal though. wow. I make this call very often though I dont give it alot of thought. I have found that I let people die who are not the main tank, given the group wipe situation, unless its the last person able to evacuate. I like groups with the Shadowknight since I get the best of both worlds, a MT who can evacuate! Then he/she is my sole concern. Typicaly its the fault of the DPS drawing too much aggro playing the "burn power" game or failing to assist properly. Tanks DO NOT kill mobs! The DPS and direct dammage casters do! Save your power for your main function of getting and maintaining aggro! If you pull with a bow, TAUNT when the mob arrives! A 'Throat Slit' or BoR or Iniquity will over take the aggro score of the bow shot. If your tank pulls with a bow...wait for the taunt or a few rounds of meele! Everyone can do something to manage aggro and ultimately make sure I have enough power to keep the party alive so we can trek deeper and see more content. I have found alot of people have no idea how to handle higher level areas. It aint antonica out there in Zek or the Feerott. I find MTs burning power on their dammage stunts when IMO it should be chain casting taunts and shout along with managing the HO wheel. I find DPS not casting their aggro reduction, and Wizzies/Warlocks actually UNDER casting once the MT has aggro locked up. Worse yet is the healers dropping dammage spells vs managing debuffs and healing power. Why does the second healer automaticaly assume they get to play Merlin when the group already has a wizzard? You're the second HEALER. In a tight group wipe fight every last iota of power matters. I know Im flaming and ultimately not perfect, but there are may reasons for group wipe and I typicaly dont blame the mobs. I know I know. blah blah flame flame. Im done now Hecate Brotherhood of Arms

01-13-2005, 04:08 PM	#7
Xilli Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	I have told people that if I observe taunt not removing the mob and them continuing to burn power that they will be allowed to die. Good time to evacuate. Not that we have any control over when that happens. I expect one of the group rouges or the shadowknight will punch the group out to the safe spot in the zone. Before going deep into an area I make sure to tell folks its OK to evac. Though survival instinct on their part makes my suggestion typicaly moot. who to heal though. wow. I make this call very often though I dont give it alot of thought. I have found that I let people die who are not the main tank, given the group wipe situation, unless its the last person able to evacuate. I like groups with the Shadowknight since I get the best of both worlds, a MT who can evacuate! Then he/she is my sole concern. Typicaly its the fault of the DPS drawing too much aggro playing the "burn power" game or failing to assist properly. Tanks DO NOT kill mobs! The DPS and direct dammage casters do! Save your power for your main function of getting and maintaining aggro! If you pull with a bow, TAUNT when the mob arrives! A 'Throat Slit' or BoR or Iniquity will over take the aggro score of the bow shot. If your tank pulls with a bow...wait for the taunt or a few rounds of meele! Everyone can do something to manage aggro and ultimately make sure I have enough power to keep the party alive so we can trek deeper and see more content. I have found alot of people have no idea how to handle higher level areas. It aint antonica out there in Zek or the Feerott. I find MTs burning power on their dammage stunts when IMO it should be chain casting taunts and shout along with managing the HO wheel. I find DPS not casting their aggro reduction, and Wizzies/Warlocks actually UNDER casting once the MT has aggro locked up. Worse yet is the healers dropping dammage spells vs managing debuffs and healing power. Why does the second healer automaticaly assume they get to play Merlin when the group already has a wizzard? You're the second HEALER. In a tight group wipe fight every last iota of power matters. I know Im flaming and ultimately not perfect, but there are may reasons for group wipe and I typicaly dont blame the mobs. I know I know. blah blah flame flame. Im done now Hecate Brotherhood of Arms

01-13-2005, 07:51 AM	#2
Azam General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	Wow, my head hurts from thinking about this one. I know that my first reaction would be to try to keep everyone alive. In most of these cases that could mean that the group gets wiped though. One thing I have learned though is at all costs never neglect the MT. If he goes your normally toast. Also I think a reactive would be the wrong thing to put on the assassin. I think it has been most people's finding that it only adds to that persons aggro. I am really glad you posted this because I now have a different mindset as to how I may react to any of those situations.

01-13-2005, 08:16 AM	#4
Ender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	Main job is to keep the MT alive so he can pull the aggro off of assy. Keep the assy alive for a few seconds for the tank to do just that. If the tank can't pull aggro, slap a instant-reactive-group reactive combo on the assy. It all depends on how the battle is going, if your group has the upper hand. The assassin also has evac so that maybe why you might want to save him. Otherwise, if it's getting really tough, the assassin must die and take one for the team. Besides it's not really a moral question when you all share the debt. Message Edited by EnderMX on 01-12-2005 07:22 PM

01-13-2005, 08:42 PM	#8
RadricTyc Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 362	Xillith wrote: ... Good time to evacuate. ... Hecate Brotherhood of Arms Exactly. First scenario: Assassin pulls ^^ orange agro in a bad pull with 6 adds. What I would do is slap a reactive heal on the assassin, since it casts fast, and tell him to evac. Then I would do a small heal on the tank followed by a large heal as we wait for the evac to arrive. Second Scenario: Second Healer is OOP and has agro. Well since he won't be helping me heal and healing him could cause me to pull agro afterwards, I let him die and stay focused on the main tank. If he had a regen spell on him (from an enchanter let's say) then I might reconsider that, but I would probably see whether that spell was enough to give him the power to save his own hide. Third scenario: Chanter pulls agro and is OOP. Again, he will be useless as DPS and useless for mezzing unless he has power. If he has a power regen spell on himself, I might save him since he could potentially feed me power later for keeping the heals up. If he doesn't, I would probably let him go in order to keep the tank up. In all of the scenarios, if I had enough time to get off a group reactive like soothing sermon, I might choose that instead. Also, if there is the possibility of evac I would choose that first and foremost.

01-13-2005, 11:57 PM	#9
MissFritz Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	I don't think anything needs to be added to this discussion really, I just wanted to add that I don't consider this to be a 'moral decision' in the least, simply a matter of practicality. Particularly with the advent of group debt you simply need to make a decision that will benefit the whole group. I believe everyone who has posted has touched on that.

01-14-2005, 01:47 AM	#10
Gronker Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 58	MissFritzie wrote: I don't think anything needs to be added to this discussion really, I just wanted to add that I don't consider this to be a 'moral decision' in the least, simply a matter of practicality. Particularly with the advent of group debt you simply need to make a decision that will benefit the whole group. I believe everyone who has posted has touched on that. Great summary. There is actually alot to balance out when making decisions on who to heal, its impossible to make blanket statements anyways. Split second decision-making on the team's welfare when the goin gets tough makes playing the Inq a blast.

01-14-2005, 02:05 AM	#11
MilkToa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 490	BlueQuick wrote: OK, here's the scenerio: The group is you (healer), one guardian (MT) and 4 DPS You're in a great group. You're fighting ^^Orange MOBs and getting tons of XP You get a bad add and now have 6 ^ORanges You know if everything goes well, you can still kill everything (although you'll be close to out of power when it happens). Suddenly, your assasin gets one of the ^^Oranges on him and takes 5 hits...and has a red health bar. What do you do? Do you switch from the MT (who has the other 5 on him) and slap a reactive heal on the assasin? Do you slap an Arch-healing on the assasin? Do you start a slow cast time Soothing Sermon or an area heal? Do you let the assasin die and keep the MT alive better? (Knowing you may need the 3000 or 4000 damage the assasin can deal to make it through)? What do you do? Now, imagine if it's the second healer who gets an agro...do you save him (and maybe let the MT die)...what if the 2nd healer is OOP? Now imagine if it's your enchanter who gets the agro?...do you save him (and maybe let MT die...what if enchanters is OOP? I ask this because I've had to make this decision 3 times in the past few weeks. One time, everyone lived. One time, we wiped. One time, only 2 people died. None of the above. You say 'evac' so one of your scouts can get you the hell out of there.

01-14-2005, 03:15 AM	#12
MacAll General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	You have 4 dps, one of them has to have evac, so you leave. Can't leave? Throw out a Contrite to share the heals between the MT and Assassin but maintain focus on the MT, or if you can, toss a Redemption on the tank and let him bounce, turn to the assassin and give him a reactive. Letting the assassin die is not the answer, because that prolongs the combat further, which requires more power you don't have. __________________ __________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth.

01-14-2005, 09:37 AM	#13
polysyllabi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	Evac regardless??? don't run so soon friends! the game isn't over yet, 1 dead dps is like what, 2% shared debt?...and if you can maintain the rest of the agro on the tank, and keep him alive long enough to finish the mobs...well, those orange mobs will erase the debt and you won't have to trek back. Evac is great... but as someone touched on earlier, nothing is a blanket solution. You can normally stay a little longer and feel things out. Many a time I had thought I'd be screaming for evac in 15sec, only to discover that everyone else in the group picked up the pace, pulled the slack and turned the tide. Good luck to all! And have fun! : ) __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blackguard wrote: We aren't sleeping until the servers are up. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

01-14-2005, 11:04 AM	#14
VonStein Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	NOpe... missed.. it... don't need to evac in the third situation... you had an SK..... Graven Image would have pulled the aggro off the DPS.... This is one of the main reasons I like having a GOOD SK in the group.... if they pay attention they can easily save a caster or DPS if they pull aggro...

01-14-2005, 07:41 PM	#15
Bobbubski Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	good topic and good discussion. __________________ ____________________________________________ EQ 2 - Giving HO's everywhere a good name

01-14-2005, 08:34 PM	#16
Celesti Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1	Well, I'm a level 36 inquis and what i'll do in that senario is to stack BoV and FoR on the MT and do a MInister Wounds on the group member who's being attacked and cast a FoR on him. And depending on the power available, i'll hit the mob with Retailiation and Mark of Pawns so group mates will be self healed when they are being attacked. I've never used Contrite Grace and Penitent's Sermon due to the slow casting time and the amount of power required to cast it. And it's good to cast FoR/BoV on chanters before anything drastic happens. Being on third person's view helps alot and different spells would be used depending if the MT can grab aggro back. __________________ Tinuval - 31 Fury (blackburrow) Tinuvel - 41 Inquisitor (toxxulia) RETIRED Celestial - 26 Coercer (toxxulia) DELETED Hate rules, Hate Restrictions, Hate to conform. Respect: One should treat people how you want to be treated.

01-15-2005, 01:05 AM	#17
ArivenGemini Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,260	BlueQuick wrote:OK, here's the scenerio:The group is you (healer), one guardian (MT) and 4 DPSYou're in a great group. You're fighting ^^Orange MOBs and getting tons of XPYou get a bad add and now have 6 ^ORangesYou know if everything goes well, you can still kill everything (although you'll be close to out of power when it happens).Suddenly, your assasin gets one of the ^^Oranges on him and takes 5 hits...and has a red health bar.What do you do? The way I look at it, when the assassin pulled agro he should have commenced doing what he can to reduce agro and stop adding agro. Any skills he has that lowers hate should be used, he should turn off autoattack, and if desperate he should (though it does add hate) fire off anything he has that will increase his defenses.You really need to stick with the MT, since his task is getting that agro off the assassin, and as such isn't focusing on the others.. which means if he may likely be with his back to the others and may increase in damge he takes.. (no shield, no ripostes). Keep that tank alive to keep YOU alive.Looking at it from the tanks side, my job would be to stay alive, keep agro and keep the healer alive. If it comes down to a wipe possiblity and we have no evac then my job is to keep the agro long enough for everyone to get away (or at least the healer, or a scout with stealth who has a "break in case of dead healer" token).Those spur of the moment decisions are stressful at times, but if you have a clear strategy that you stick to then you will do good. If tactics dont work, then work on new ones. Little things can have big impact.. like running if you get agro. The tank will be trying to get that off you and if you run away he has great problems. In that case unless that person is critical, that person would die in any group I am tanking with... I risk a party wipe if I go chasing, whereas if he dies we have a chance to get him out with a rev. __________________

01-15-2005, 04:13 AM	#18
MacAll General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	Additionally, have the assasin evade (as mentioned above) and if your tank is SK, have them FD the assassin. __________________ __________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth.

01-15-2005, 04:56 AM	#19
Tseram Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 24	I run into too many Assassins who absolutely LOVE to draw aggro. They do it over and over and think it's funny. Until I let them die.Personally, I feel it is part of a Scout's job to watch their aggro and not do something stupid. I don't feel bad about it at all.Of course, I'm an evil Inquisitor...

01-15-2005, 05:06 AM	#20
MacAll General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	I never let anyone die, though not through any altruism on my part. 1. I don't want the debt 2. I don't want to listen to the whining of the group because I let them have debt too And a good tank can prevent the assassin from getting debt, no matter how hard they want it...it's their job. It's how assassin's one-up tanks, stealing agro from them to show how much they suck. My friends who are really good tanks laugh at them. Edit: One thing to note, letting people die is the quickest way to get a bad rep as a healer. No one wants to be sitting and wondering if the cleric disagrees with their playing style and will punish them for it. It breaks the bonds of trust, which is integral to the best group experiences. If the tank can't trust you to keep him alive, he'll not group with you and find someone he can trust, and the same goes for the other players. Just my 2 copper Message Edited by MacAllen on 01-14-2005 04:08 PM __________________ __________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth.