Bestowal of Vitae - Page 4

Lig · 12-06-2004, 11:49 PM

I have no idea what kind of healer you are and what you use at the higher levels but I am a 23 Inq and I've got to tell you that SS rocks.

First of all let me state that if mobs are doing 400dmg a pop to your tank then either a) you should run away screaming like a little girl or b) you are no debuffing anything EVER. Your main job as an Inq is to keep your party alive my friend, and the way we do that is not straight heals, we debuff. When you take your Adept 1 or 3 Weakness and pop it on a mob, plus your Submission spell you reduce the damage done by the mob significantly to your main tank. This makes SS much more effective when stacked with BoV. Furthermore SS is a wonderful way to keep Chanters alive that one extra tick it takes to cast an AH to get them back to a reasonable level of hp.

The way I debuff is by having SS and BoV on my tank before a tough battle. This gives him/her time to take a little damage and build agro before I bang away with weakness and my armor debuff as well as forced submission when I can spare the time.

Inq keep parties alive by debuffing as well as healing and that is where we excell.

I would also like to add that the armor debuff we get adds a ton of DPS done to the mob since it effects every hit.

One point I would like to emphisise concerning healers attacking is that our weapons do proc damage. So although you are correct in saying that my tiny DPS is not going to make a huge difference at all, I do hit for 30+ at times and that can actually kill a mob towards the end.

In any case I am not sure how the game mechanics work but I seem to recall that in EQLive or DAoC (can't remember which this was the case in as I played both a long time ago) the more people attacking the easier it was to hit a target.

Well that's my 2cp. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Ligur

MasterThel · 12-07-2004, 05:58 AM

Elahna, while it's true we do pathetic damage to a mob while meleeing, I DEFINITELY do more than 13 damage a fight. At level 20 I generally rack up about 100-200 damage on yellow ^^ and less per fight. I'm sure the amount will drop as I get deeper into the level 20 "harder" mobs but we're given heavy armor for a reason (if the mob turns to us, we can mitigate those 1-2 seconds before the tank realises, through damage absorption). Having said that, in certain situations it really ISN'T viable for the healer to melee and I'm glad to stand down then. But if at all possible I will melee if at least to keep my skills capped and make soloing easier. I make the judgement not to put my party at risk first, always, but I'm 1/6th of the party and have my own goals too.

Elah · 12-07-2004, 08:10 AM

MasterThelps wrote:Elahna, while it's true we do pathetic damage to a mob while meleeing, I DEFINITELY do more than 13 damage a fight. At level 20 I generally rack up about 100-200 damage on yellow ^^ and less per fight. I'm sure the amount will drop as I get deeper into the level 20 "harder" mobs but we're given heavy armor for a reason (if the mob turns to us, we can mitigate those 1-2 seconds before the tank realises, through damage absorption). Having said that, in certain situations it really ISN'T viable for the healer to melee and I'm glad to stand down then. But if at all possible I will melee if at least to keep my skills capped and make soloing easier. I make the judgement not to put my party at risk first, always, but I'm 1/6th of the party and have my own goals too.

I wasn't saying that you only do 13 damage in a fight, I just meant in the fight that I -watched- the logs and wrote down numbers JUST to test theories, OUR inquisitor swung 27 times, and hit twice. That includes the fact that he was casting BoV, SS, Debuffs, CH, AH, and loads more spells that I even know (as I'm a warlock). Those two times, he hit once for 4 and once for 9. At the time, these were Orange double up mobs. We were a group of levels 24-26 (the inquisitor was 24, like me). I know it's an unusual case, but EVEN if he had HIT every time, and did MAX damage each time, that's 9 damage, no, wait, let's say 20 for "critical" hits and assume he critical hit every time. That leaves 27 * 20. That's a total of 540 damage. Over the course of the fight. You're right in THAT instance, where EVERY time he hits he gets critical and he hit every time he swung. Realistically, you're talking around HALF that (with crits & low hits) EVEN if he hits every time, so roughly 270 damage (which is half). That's a nuke from me, or a properly executed backstab (or similar) from a Ranger / Assassin. You're talking about shortening the fight a TOTAL of 2 seconds. Also, there are going to be extreme cases in either direction. Sometimes, your healer meleeing is the worst possible situation, and other times, you'll lose the fight without it. There's always going to be exceptions (and an exceptional healer recognizes those fights). What I'm getting at is that a Healer's damage over the course of a battle (assuming it's a one healer group) is using 80% of his time to cast spells. That means that it's not possible for him or her to make a large dent in a mob's hit points, nor to make a large melee difference in a battle. It's a small difference. It DOES help, but it is a SMALL difference. I get a minor heal type spell at level 47. It's probably insanely expensive power wise, but if others know I have it, and the tank dies while I have 80% power and the cleric has 0% power, then yeah, it's on me at that point. My healing is guaranteed to be "pitiful" in comparison to yours (as it should be, it's the only spell I get that does anything of that nature). At the same time, I could have cast the nuke that -might- have killed the mob. I'll have to learn when to use that spell VERY wisely. There's a time and a place for everything. And realistically speaking, at level 20, I can spam "Blaze" followed by "Ice Spike" every 2 seconds to do 90-190 damage on blaze and 60-140 damage on Ice Spike. So, again, you're talking about two nuke's time worth of damage. Or, at most (assuming you hit 200 damage that fight) 6 seconds. I haven't run out of mana to the point that we were losing a fight because of it since I gained "Painful Meditation" that turns my health into power (about enough for 3 nukes, usually).There are always going to be extreme cases in either situation (fights where you never hit the mob once, or where you hit every time). =) Heavy Armor does not equal anything more than damage mitigation (which I thank Tunare that you're blessed with). You're smart enough to realize that there's a time and a place for a healer to stay back and SOLELY focus on healing without having to worry about getting aggro and someone not noticing it, and there's a time and a place for a healer to be in the thick of things adding that (occasionaly Crucial) extra damage. I don't begin to know those limitations. I know when -I- should melee (strangely, only on yellow++ and harder), but I'm not a healer, so I'm only guessing from the other side of the fence.I have looked at the numbers though. I'm sure his 2/27 hit ratio was a rare occasion.

xentr · 12-08-2004, 10:27 PM

I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed.

As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.

ZDiddy · 12-18-2004, 11:38 AM

I've been reading this thread, but can say I haven't made up my mind on the usefulness of SS as compared to spot CH heals. One thing that has bothered me, and it's quite a small thing at that, but no one has taken into account our chance to proc! Do you guys not use Courage anymore? I've found that with my Adept I Courage I can proc for some nice damage! Anywhere from 27-40 damage when it goes off right now at level 22. It may not sound like much, but if you get a lucky streak and proc on2 of 10 swings it's more damage then the swings themselves combined. As for the current arguemnet, I use my CH mostly for the minor buff it carries with it. Whenever the servers decide to come back up I'll drag my duo partner out and force her to do some testing with me.Edit: Just reskimmed and see our proc was mentioned. I've not had it pull aggro, but when you duo with an Assassin who just unloaded a massive ShadowBlade you can't really get the aggro back..

Message Edited by ZDiddy on 12-17-2004 10:41 PM

Moratt · 12-18-2004, 01:30 PM

1 Point for you Sitting Don't Help you get back HP or MANA at all so way sit at all unless you are camping?

Ydiss · 12-20-2004, 02:27 AM

xentryx wrote:

I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed.

As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.

If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it.

However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo.

That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time.

It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities).

This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me.

I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There is a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels.

I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great.

Kir · 12-23-2004, 07:41 AM

Ydiss wrote:

xentryx wrote:

I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed.

As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.

If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it.

However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo.

That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time.

It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities).

This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me.

I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There is a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels.

I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great.

Im glad your liberal about how people play, I think thats the way it should be. But to come into a discussion on why BoV / SS is a great spell, and not be able to understand why people are talking about how they use it in group situations is kinda interesting. This was a thread that was to show those people who might not know the "most mana effecient" way to heal, how. Granted that doesnt mean you HAVE to do it this way or else you will die, but what most of us in this thread minus a couple of argumentitive folks who have no real info, is helping those who want to know the most effecient way how to do it.

You say that you never use SS unless they have a mob that AoE's, humor me, and just spend more then 5 minutes like McMallen here, and try it. Try and at your level, and group make up, see if it really works better then your current method. If it doesnt great, it doesnt work for you, but if it does then pass that info along to people who dont know so that players in general get better.. why? Because it means less group exp debt for you =)

Majer · 12-23-2004, 09:58 PM

MacAllen wrote:
At lvl 27 my ac is > 1500 and my hp > 1200. I was in a group last night with a templar who sat back, did primary heals and was appalled that I would "face the peril" and wade in to melee. I drop 1 BoV on myself before stepping in, which ensures I don't need heals (my BoV's 128hp/click) and, while I don't have l33t m3l33 skillz, I can add 200hp or so of dmg to the fight, and that has more than once turned the tide of a close battle.

From my perspective, there is a great deal of flexibility that the Inquisitor brings to a fight that no other class can, and that flexibility has me chosen over a Templar every time. Here's how I approach any battle:

1. BoV on the tank BEFORE he engages...this allows you to med the mana back up before engaging. If you wait until after he's engaged, then you not only risk agro (small, but it happens), you also put yourself into combat mode and slow your regen, so you start off -1 BoV's worth of mana.
2. BoV on myself (like I said, I like to get my hands dirty), again allowing med-up time before engaging.
3. Submission on the targetted mob. This is an AoE debuff that reduces the effectiveness of all of them.

At this point, it varies. If there is no enchanter and it's a multi-pull, I put Heretic on each mob except the last. I know the spell sounds silly, but on a 5 mob pull, the last mob is like 75% dead by the time the tanks get to it, which really helps, especially for such a cheap mana spell. For Rallos' sake, don't use it if there's a chanter in the group, as it breaks every mez and gets you fileted like a Panda by your group.

If things are tight, with lots of adds or AoE's, I'll stay back and focus completely on healing, with SS and PoA to keep everyone alive. Otherwise, I step in and use Oppression and Cleansing to add dps to the fight and bring the mobs down a LOT faster. Keep BoV on the main tank and use Combat Heal to fill in the gaps.

On a particularly nasty pull, like an Orange ^^ mob, I'll sit back and unload every debuff I have on it, significantly reducing it's effectiveness and increasing ours.

I'm afraid I have a strong dislike for prissy cleric/templars who stand back, do nothing but heal, and scream "on me!!" and run around when a mob looks at them sideways. The truth hurts, and it's my job to bring it to every vile creature that walks upon the shattered lands.

Amen!!!And those that are still wearing Medium armor, please do us a favor and smite yourself between the eyes repeatedly.Inquisitors are to debuff and heal. And get major argo on top of it, hence the reason we get HEAVY armor. Upgrade your armor and quit yelling and screaming about getting hit.Now I'm not going to become a bloody math guru to figure out formulas. Just see what works for you.Bov is a great spell, SS is to. Just learn when to use and when not to use.

Ydiss · 12-25-2004, 04:28 AM

Kiris wrote:

Ydiss wrote:

xentryx wrote:

I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed.

As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.

If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it.

However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo.

That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time.

It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities).

This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me.

I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There is a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels.

I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great.

Im glad your liberal about how people play, I think thats the way it should be. But to come into a discussion on why BoV / SS is a great spell, and not be able to understand why people are talking about how they use it in group situations is kinda interesting. This was a thread that was to show those people who might not know the "most mana effecient" way to heal, how. Granted that doesnt mean you HAVE to do it this way or else you will die, but what most of us in this thread minus a couple of argumentitive folks who have no real info, is helping those who want to know the most effecient way how to do it.

You say that you never use SS unless they have a mob that AoE's, humor me, and just spend more then 5 minutes like McMallen here, and try it. Try and at your level, and group make up, see if it really works better then your current method. If it doesnt great, it doesnt work for you, but if it does then pass that info along to people who dont know so that players in general get better.. why? Because it means less group exp debt for you =)

When I said I rarely use it in a fight I meant in the fight. I use it a lot more before a fight to give myself a time buffer to land all my debuffs, particularly against tough opposition and boss mobs. For me, SS is a situational spell a lot like many others we have. It is a great spell, I never said it wasn't (I just don't see the point in arguing about what spell is best, people can form their own oppinions from usage) but I don't use it all the time.

Why?

I don't need to.

Benevolence and Repentant both do a good enough job for me and leave me with more power to spend on dots and also mean I have more power at the end of the fight. So long as I have a good tank (and I usually do because we duo/trio) then I really don't need to heal very much at all.

It's a case of taste and preference and mine is to not use SS all the time. It would be a total waste of my power because, and this is no lie, a lot of our encounters end without me having cast a single heal during the fight anyway (excluding pre-fight reactives).

I appreciate what you're saying, it's cool to share this kind of information. Everyone wants to become a better healer because it's more fun when things go right than when they go wrong. My point was, why argue about it?

Next time we have a really tough encounter (one where I know I'll be healing frequently) I'll try using SS exclusively. It might be better, so I'm willing to give it a try. If I'm honest, though, I still think that extra power would be far better spent on keeping Cruel Invocation active on the encounter.

Oh, by the way. What's experience debt? SMILEY

Sebastien · 12-27-2004, 10:02 PM

This entire discussion hurt my eyes. A lot.

Xilli · 01-03-2005, 01:49 AM

duplicate post

Message Edited by Xillith on 01-02-2005 12:56 PM

Xilli · 01-03-2005, 01:53 AM

Exercise extreme caution when casting Soothing Sermon on tanks about to pull. As in, how is your tank pulling and how good is your timing. Pulling with a ranged weapon or small DD does not compare with the aggro caused by Taunt flagged abilities. Therefore if your Soothing Sermon, or group heal, or group buff lands AFTER the pull event expect to get hammered briefly and depending on your equipment and the skill of the back up healer...hammered into debt, perhaps group wipeout debt. This is more true with higher level mobs for whom taunt is not so effective. If you fail to manage aggro you will rapidly become famous as a poor healer and left to sit in LFG mode inexplicably. Like wise, if you do it well expect to be on many friend lists and see invitations to higher level guilds. No healing, no superior content in EQ2.more advice:1. Dont be shy. Inspect the main tank and your group DPS classes. Dont like their equipment? say so. I found that sometimes a lower level fighter has better equipment and is elected unanimously ( by me ) to be the main tank. 2. Be clever. Ask if the rouges weapon pair is green to him/her. If the answer is YES the fights will last longer meaning less power for you. Face it all you tank types out there, its the rouges who kill the mob. Regardless of the main tanks life pool and AC, a long fight is doom to the group without 1-2 solid DPS.3. Be bold. Leave groups you dont like and quickly throw up your LFG flag, this sends a solid message. Sometimes I find myself quickly reinvited to the same group with my needs addressed. Better yet, ask to be the leader.3.5 Be a coward. If the group is dropping like flies, scream and run away. While some may object, a resurection quickly soothes their complaints.4. Provide solutions to your previously stated problems above. Be a weaponsmith or armorer. " Say is that dagger green to you? Look at this one, only 2gp! " etc...5. Most importantly, the back up healer. I prefer the back up healer to NOT be an Inquisitor ( me ) as it limits the overall range of abilities the group gets to be exposed to. Any other healer is a perfect add, though the Templar is also redundant some ways their buffs are far superior ( as opposed to my de-buffs )and are thus MY prefered paired healer.Have fun.***********************Hecate, 29 Inquisitor of Innothule server

Aephes · 01-07-2005, 03:26 AM

Something that seemed to get lost a little in the fray is that Soothing Sermon will heal the tank or any and all other group members.Perhaps my groups have been fighting in too-dangerous areas or have been employing bad tactics, but there have been a number of times when bad pops or bad calls have led to multiple group members getting aggro at the same time. There are a lot of chanters and backstabbers who owe their lives to my keeping SS up for the duration of the fight. Pop-quiz, hotshot: you've got time for one spot heal - do you use it on the wizzy or the backstabber? Trick question; if you've been able to keep SS up, it's a choice you don't even have to make.Soothing Sermon is also particularly valuable in bad groups. I know, I know, if you're in a bad group it's your own fault, you should bail, etc., etc., ad nauseam, but let's be realistic. If SS will keep everyone alive and well long enough for me to get the last two tainted wretches I need, I'm gonna gut it out.This is longer than I intended it to be, but I'll close by adding that I love the way SS buys me time. As long as it's stacked with BoV on the tank and covering everyone's six, I know I've got some room to maneuver. As always, it should be noted that this is what is working for me at the moment (level 22), and that your playing style may vary. I'm just sharing this in the event that someone else is reading this forum for the same reason I am: to learn something I didn't already know that may help me.The Finn...I don't see a preview button...hope this looks right...

Xilli · 01-07-2005, 04:18 AM

When SS was new it was very helpfull. Im 30 and I have just recently upgraded it to add-3. I still use it when farming and for mobs who hit fast for lower dammage. It stacks with its upgrade at 29. As you stated it stacks with BoV and its upgrade. The problem with reactive heals is there is chance the reactive proc will not occur. For higher level mobs who hit for 200-350 the reactives are far less efffective and you find yourself chain casting direct heals.As far as who gets healed in a pinch? I heal the rouge. He can evacuate us and has the first priority. I have the group order to " Punch us out of here! Evacuate!! " macro bound. The wiz cannot effect that power. I give the order becuase The others may or may not be focusing on my power during a brawl. One can only hope its obeyed. Otherwise I use the full group heal and then individual ones on the members still under attack. Hopefully by then aggro is under control.HecateBrotherhood of ArmsInnothule

12-07-2004, 05:58 AM	#92
MasterThel Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	Elahna, while it's true we do pathetic damage to a mob while meleeing, I DEFINITELY do more than 13 damage a fight. At level 20 I generally rack up about 100-200 damage on yellow ^^ and less per fight. I'm sure the amount will drop as I get deeper into the level 20 "harder" mobs but we're given heavy armor for a reason (if the mob turns to us, we can mitigate those 1-2 seconds before the tank realises, through damage absorption). Having said that, in certain situations it really ISN'T viable for the healer to melee and I'm glad to stand down then. But if at all possible I will melee if at least to keep my skills capped and make soloing easier. I make the judgement not to put my party at risk first, always, but I'm 1/6th of the party and have my own goals too. __________________ Thelps: Level 45 Inquisitor of the Neriak Server. Guild: Shattered Moon shatteredmoon.hopto.org

12-20-2004, 02:27 AM	#97
Ydiss Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 114	xentryx wrote: I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med. If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it. However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo. That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time. It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities). This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me. I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There is a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels. I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great. __________________

12-23-2004, 07:41 AM	#98
Kir General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 212	Ydiss wrote: xentryx wrote: I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med. If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it. However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo. That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time. It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities). This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me. I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There is a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels. I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great. Im glad your liberal about how people play, I think thats the way it should be. But to come into a discussion on why BoV / SS is a great spell, and not be able to understand why people are talking about how they use it in group situations is kinda interesting. This was a thread that was to show those people who might not know the "most mana effecient" way to heal, how. Granted that doesnt mean you HAVE to do it this way or else you will die, but what most of us in this thread minus a couple of argumentitive folks who have no real info, is helping those who want to know the most effecient way how to do it. You say that you never use SS unless they have a mob that AoE's, humor me, and just spend more then 5 minutes like McMallen here, and try it. Try and at your level, and group make up, see if it really works better then your current method. If it doesnt great, it doesnt work for you, but if it does then pass that info along to people who dont know so that players in general get better.. why? Because it means less group exp debt for you =)

12-23-2004, 09:58 PM	#99
Majer General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	MacAllen wrote: At lvl 27 my ac is > 1500 and my hp > 1200. I was in a group last night with a templar who sat back, did primary heals and was appalled that I would "face the peril" and wade in to melee. I drop 1 BoV on myself before stepping in, which ensures I don't need heals (my BoV's 128hp/click) and, while I don't have l33t m3l33 skillz, I can add 200hp or so of dmg to the fight, and that has more than once turned the tide of a close battle. From my perspective, there is a great deal of flexibility that the Inquisitor brings to a fight that no other class can, and that flexibility has me chosen over a Templar every time. Here's how I approach any battle: 1. BoV on the tank BEFORE he engages...this allows you to med the mana back up before engaging. If you wait until after he's engaged, then you not only risk agro (small, but it happens), you also put yourself into combat mode and slow your regen, so you start off -1 BoV's worth of mana. 2. BoV on myself (like I said, I like to get my hands dirty), again allowing med-up time before engaging. 3. Submission on the targetted mob. This is an AoE debuff that reduces the effectiveness of all of them. At this point, it varies. If there is no enchanter and it's a multi-pull, I put Heretic on each mob except the last. I know the spell sounds silly, but on a 5 mob pull, the last mob is like 75% dead by the time the tanks get to it, which really helps, especially for such a cheap mana spell. For Rallos' sake, don't use it if there's a chanter in the group, as it breaks every mez and gets you fileted like a Panda by your group. If things are tight, with lots of adds or AoE's, I'll stay back and focus completely on healing, with SS and PoA to keep everyone alive. Otherwise, I step in and use Oppression and Cleansing to add dps to the fight and bring the mobs down a LOT faster. Keep BoV on the main tank and use Combat Heal to fill in the gaps. On a particularly nasty pull, like an Orange ^^ mob, I'll sit back and unload every debuff I have on it, significantly reducing it's effectiveness and increasing ours. I'm afraid I have a strong dislike for prissy cleric/templars who stand back, do nothing but heal, and scream "on me!!" and run around when a mob looks at them sideways. The truth hurts, and it's my job to bring it to every vile creature that walks upon the shattered lands. Amen!!!And those that are still wearing Medium armor, please do us a favor and smite yourself between the eyes repeatedly.Inquisitors are to debuff and heal. And get major argo on top of it, hence the reason we get HEAVY armor. Upgrade your armor and quit yelling and screaming about getting hit.Now I'm not going to become a bloody math guru to figure out formulas. Just see what works for you.Bov is a great spell, SS is to. Just learn when to use and when not to use. __________________ Antonia Bayle server - Xellos, (24) Coercer for The Callers. http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=105319104

12-25-2004, 04:28 AM	#100
Ydiss Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 114	Kiris wrote: Ydiss wrote: xentryx wrote: I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med. If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it. However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo. That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time. It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities). This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me. I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There is a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels. I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great. Im glad your liberal about how people play, I think thats the way it should be. But to come into a discussion on why BoV / SS is a great spell, and not be able to understand why people are talking about how they use it in group situations is kinda interesting. This was a thread that was to show those people who might not know the "most mana effecient" way to heal, how. Granted that doesnt mean you HAVE to do it this way or else you will die, but what most of us in this thread minus a couple of argumentitive folks who have no real info, is helping those who want to know the most effecient way how to do it. You say that you never use SS unless they have a mob that AoE's, humor me, and just spend more then 5 minutes like McMallen here, and try it. Try and at your level, and group make up, see if it really works better then your current method. If it doesnt great, it doesnt work for you, but if it does then pass that info along to people who dont know so that players in general get better.. why? Because it means less group exp debt for you =) When I said I rarely use it in a fight I meant in the fight. I use it a lot more before a fight to give myself a time buffer to land all my debuffs, particularly against tough opposition and boss mobs. For me, SS is a situational spell a lot like many others we have. It is a great spell, I never said it wasn't (I just don't see the point in arguing about what spell is best, people can form their own oppinions from usage) but I don't use it all the time. Why? I don't need to. Benevolence and Repentant both do a good enough job for me and leave me with more power to spend on dots and also mean I have more power at the end of the fight. So long as I have a good tank (and I usually do because we duo/trio) then I really don't need to heal very much at all. It's a case of taste and preference and mine is to not use SS all the time. It would be a total waste of my power because, and this is no lie, a lot of our encounters end without me having cast a single heal during the fight anyway (excluding pre-fight reactives). I appreciate what you're saying, it's cool to share this kind of information. Everyone wants to become a better healer because it's more fun when things go right than when they go wrong. My point was, why argue about it? Next time we have a really tough encounter (one where I know I'll be healing frequently) I'll try using SS exclusively. It might be better, so I'm willing to give it a try. If I'm honest, though, I still think that extra power would be far better spent on keeping Cruel Invocation active on the encounter. Oh, by the way. What's experience debt? __________________

12-06-2004, 11:49 PM	#91
Lig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	I have no idea what kind of healer you are and what you use at the higher levels but I am a 23 Inq and I've got to tell you that SS rocks. First of all let me state that if mobs are doing 400dmg a pop to your tank then either a) you should run away screaming like a little girl or b) you are no debuffing anything EVER. Your main job as an Inq is to keep your party alive my friend, and the way we do that is not straight heals, we debuff. When you take your Adept 1 or 3 Weakness and pop it on a mob, plus your Submission spell you reduce the damage done by the mob significantly to your main tank. This makes SS much more effective when stacked with BoV. Furthermore SS is a wonderful way to keep Chanters alive that one extra tick it takes to cast an AH to get them back to a reasonable level of hp. The way I debuff is by having SS and BoV on my tank before a tough battle. This gives him/her time to take a little damage and build agro before I bang away with weakness and my armor debuff as well as forced submission when I can spare the time. Inq keep parties alive by debuffing as well as healing and that is where we excell. I would also like to add that the armor debuff we get adds a ton of DPS done to the mob since it effects every hit. One point I would like to emphisise concerning healers attacking is that our weapons do proc damage. So although you are correct in saying that my tiny DPS is not going to make a huge difference at all, I do hit for 30+ at times and that can actually kill a mob towards the end. In any case I am not sure how the game mechanics work but I seem to recall that in EQLive or DAoC (can't remember which this was the case in as I played both a long time ago) the more people attacking the easier it was to hit a target. Well that's my 2cp. Hope I didn't offend anyone. Ligur

12-07-2004, 08:10 AM	#93
Elah Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	MasterThelps wrote:Elahna, while it's true we do pathetic damage to a mob while meleeing, I DEFINITELY do more than 13 damage a fight. At level 20 I generally rack up about 100-200 damage on yellow ^^ and less per fight. I'm sure the amount will drop as I get deeper into the level 20 "harder" mobs but we're given heavy armor for a reason (if the mob turns to us, we can mitigate those 1-2 seconds before the tank realises, through damage absorption). Having said that, in certain situations it really ISN'T viable for the healer to melee and I'm glad to stand down then. But if at all possible I will melee if at least to keep my skills capped and make soloing easier. I make the judgement not to put my party at risk first, always, but I'm 1/6th of the party and have my own goals too. I wasn't saying that you only do 13 damage in a fight, I just meant in the fight that I -watched- the logs and wrote down numbers JUST to test theories, OUR inquisitor swung 27 times, and hit twice. That includes the fact that he was casting BoV, SS, Debuffs, CH, AH, and loads more spells that I even know (as I'm a warlock). Those two times, he hit once for 4 and once for 9. At the time, these were Orange double up mobs. We were a group of levels 24-26 (the inquisitor was 24, like me). I know it's an unusual case, but EVEN if he had HIT every time, and did MAX damage each time, that's 9 damage, no, wait, let's say 20 for "critical" hits and assume he critical hit every time. That leaves 27 * 20. That's a total of 540 damage. Over the course of the fight. You're right in THAT instance, where EVERY time he hits he gets critical and he hit every time he swung. Realistically, you're talking around HALF that (with crits & low hits) EVEN if he hits every time, so roughly 270 damage (which is half). That's a nuke from me, or a properly executed backstab (or similar) from a Ranger / Assassin. You're talking about shortening the fight a TOTAL of 2 seconds. Also, there are going to be extreme cases in either direction. Sometimes, your healer meleeing is the worst possible situation, and other times, you'll lose the fight without it. There's always going to be exceptions (and an exceptional healer recognizes those fights). What I'm getting at is that a Healer's damage over the course of a battle (assuming it's a one healer group) is using 80% of his time to cast spells. That means that it's not possible for him or her to make a large dent in a mob's hit points, nor to make a large melee difference in a battle. It's a small difference. It DOES help, but it is a SMALL difference. I get a minor heal type spell at level 47. It's probably insanely expensive power wise, but if others know I have it, and the tank dies while I have 80% power and the cleric has 0% power, then yeah, it's on me at that point. My healing is guaranteed to be "pitiful" in comparison to yours (as it should be, it's the only spell I get that does anything of that nature). At the same time, I could have cast the nuke that -might- have killed the mob. I'll have to learn when to use that spell VERY wisely. There's a time and a place for everything. And realistically speaking, at level 20, I can spam "Blaze" followed by "Ice Spike" every 2 seconds to do 90-190 damage on blaze and 60-140 damage on Ice Spike. So, again, you're talking about two nuke's time worth of damage. Or, at most (assuming you hit 200 damage that fight) 6 seconds. I haven't run out of mana to the point that we were losing a fight because of it since I gained "Painful Meditation" that turns my health into power (about enough for 3 nukes, usually).There are always going to be extreme cases in either situation (fights where you never hit the mob once, or where you hit every time). =) Heavy Armor does not equal anything more than damage mitigation (which I thank Tunare that you're blessed with). You're smart enough to realize that there's a time and a place for a healer to stay back and SOLELY focus on healing without having to worry about getting aggro and someone not noticing it, and there's a time and a place for a healer to be in the thick of things adding that (occasionaly Crucial) extra damage. I don't begin to know those limitations. I know when -I- should melee (strangely, only on yellow++ and harder), but I'm not a healer, so I'm only guessing from the other side of the fence.I have looked at the numbers though. I'm sure his 2/27 hit ratio was a rare occasion.

12-08-2004, 10:27 PM	#94
xentr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.

12-18-2004, 11:38 AM	#95
ZDiddy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	I've been reading this thread, but can say I haven't made up my mind on the usefulness of SS as compared to spot CH heals. One thing that has bothered me, and it's quite a small thing at that, but no one has taken into account our chance to proc! Do you guys not use Courage anymore? I've found that with my Adept I Courage I can proc for some nice damage! Anywhere from 27-40 damage when it goes off right now at level 22. It may not sound like much, but if you get a lucky streak and proc on2 of 10 swings it's more damage then the swings themselves combined. As for the current arguemnet, I use my CH mostly for the minor buff it carries with it. Whenever the servers decide to come back up I'll drag my duo partner out and force her to do some testing with me.Edit: Just reskimmed and see our proc was mentioned. I've not had it pull aggro, but when you duo with an Assassin who just unloaded a massive ShadowBlade you can't really get the aggro back.. Message Edited by ZDiddy on 12-17-2004 10:41 PM

12-18-2004, 01:30 PM	#96
Moratt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	1 Point for you Sitting Don't Help you get back HP or MANA at all so way sit at all unless you are camping?

12-27-2004, 10:02 PM	#101
Sebastien Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	This entire discussion hurt my eyes. A lot. __________________ My latest character is not in the database yet. Returning Player & Forum Critic

01-03-2005, 01:49 AM	#102
Xilli Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	duplicate post Message Edited by Xillith on 01-02-2005 12:56 PM

01-03-2005, 01:53 AM	#103
Xilli Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	Exercise extreme caution when casting Soothing Sermon on tanks about to pull. As in, how is your tank pulling and how good is your timing. Pulling with a ranged weapon or small DD does not compare with the aggro caused by Taunt flagged abilities. Therefore if your Soothing Sermon, or group heal, or group buff lands AFTER the pull event expect to get hammered briefly and depending on your equipment and the skill of the back up healer...hammered into debt, perhaps group wipeout debt. This is more true with higher level mobs for whom taunt is not so effective. If you fail to manage aggro you will rapidly become famous as a poor healer and left to sit in LFG mode inexplicably. Like wise, if you do it well expect to be on many friend lists and see invitations to higher level guilds. No healing, no superior content in EQ2.more advice:1. Dont be shy. Inspect the main tank and your group DPS classes. Dont like their equipment? say so. I found that sometimes a lower level fighter has better equipment and is elected unanimously ( by me ) to be the main tank. 2. Be clever. Ask if the rouges weapon pair is green to him/her. If the answer is YES the fights will last longer meaning less power for you. Face it all you tank types out there, its the rouges who kill the mob. Regardless of the main tanks life pool and AC, a long fight is doom to the group without 1-2 solid DPS.3. Be bold. Leave groups you dont like and quickly throw up your LFG flag, this sends a solid message. Sometimes I find myself quickly reinvited to the same group with my needs addressed. Better yet, ask to be the leader.3.5 Be a coward. If the group is dropping like flies, scream and run away. While some may object, a resurection quickly soothes their complaints.4. Provide solutions to your previously stated problems above. Be a weaponsmith or armorer. " Say is that dagger green to you? Look at this one, only 2gp! " etc...5. Most importantly, the back up healer. I prefer the back up healer to NOT be an Inquisitor ( me ) as it limits the overall range of abilities the group gets to be exposed to. Any other healer is a perfect add, though the Templar is also redundant some ways their buffs are far superior ( as opposed to my de-buffs )and are thus MY prefered paired healer.Have fun.***********************Hecate, 29 Inquisitor of Innothule server

01-07-2005, 03:26 AM	#104
Aephes Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	Something that seemed to get lost a little in the fray is that Soothing Sermon will heal the tank or any and all other group members.Perhaps my groups have been fighting in too-dangerous areas or have been employing bad tactics, but there have been a number of times when bad pops or bad calls have led to multiple group members getting aggro at the same time. There are a lot of chanters and backstabbers who owe their lives to my keeping SS up for the duration of the fight. Pop-quiz, hotshot: you've got time for one spot heal - do you use it on the wizzy or the backstabber? Trick question; if you've been able to keep SS up, it's a choice you don't even have to make.Soothing Sermon is also particularly valuable in bad groups. I know, I know, if you're in a bad group it's your own fault, you should bail, etc., etc., ad nauseam, but let's be realistic. If SS will keep everyone alive and well long enough for me to get the last two tainted wretches I need, I'm gonna gut it out.This is longer than I intended it to be, but I'll close by adding that I love the way SS buys me time. As long as it's stacked with BoV on the tank and covering everyone's six, I know I've got some room to maneuver. As always, it should be noted that this is what is working for me at the moment (level 22), and that your playing style may vary. I'm just sharing this in the event that someone else is reading this forum for the same reason I am: to learn something I didn't already know that may help me.The Finn...I don't see a preview button...hope this looks right... __________________ Your request is being processed...

01-07-2005, 04:18 AM	#105
Xilli Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	When SS was new it was very helpfull. Im 30 and I have just recently upgraded it to add-3. I still use it when farming and for mobs who hit fast for lower dammage. It stacks with its upgrade at 29. As you stated it stacks with BoV and its upgrade. The problem with reactive heals is there is chance the reactive proc will not occur. For higher level mobs who hit for 200-350 the reactives are far less efffective and you find yourself chain casting direct heals.As far as who gets healed in a pinch? I heal the rouge. He can evacuate us and has the first priority. I have the group order to " Punch us out of here! Evacuate!! " macro bound. The wiz cannot effect that power. I give the order becuase The others may or may not be focusing on my power during a brawl. One can only hope its obeyed. Otherwise I use the full group heal and then individual ones on the members still under attack. Hopefully by then aggro is under control.HecateBrotherhood of ArmsInnothule