Best Healer - Page 4

Timaarit · 11-25-2005, 06:34 PM

quetzaqotl wrote:
Oh my then its not the furies fault then I blame those pesky brawlers!

Really now tim :smileyvery-happy:

Well for xp group, pick one of these: A: healing 1000, damage 100 B: healing 950, damage 300 If you say A, I will know you have never been in xp group.

Andu · 11-25-2005, 06:59 PM

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**

Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 11-28-2005 11:42 AM

stargazer5678 · 11-25-2005, 09:42 PM

Anduri wrote:

quetzaqotl wrote:

Well they mentioned a templar in there too noone mentioned a warden, mystic, defiler or an inquisitor guess theyre more broken than templars then eh?

If someone starts building a group with mages and a dps tank like a bruiser people add things to it sure if you group with a couple of mages it's not strange that you want a fury for the int buffs when your grouping with more than 2 mages.

If the group ste up is fury friendly sure go with a fury but there are different circumstances where another healer would shine more.

Also who died and made them god btw? So if 4 people pick a fury cause the previous poster had a fury in group, does that prove anything?

No dont think so, nice of you to drag a thread in here guess youll now link the thread of the perfect raid force: 8 bruisers+16 furies and say how unbeatable that is lol.

People are blinded.

And again maybe it would be fun to try and compare yourself to another healing class who think theyre fine, cause that would make em overpowered eh.

Hmm maybe do a templars vs inq comparison or maybe against a defiler or mystic or whatever as this whole fury do more dps and heal like templars bs is getting stale.

Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-25-2005 05:10 AM

I'm not saying any of those things. I merely make the point (that some Templar's have disputed) that if a Fury and another healer put their LFG flags on I know who I'm putting my money on over who gets a group first.

Noone died and made them god, they are merely representative of the view that most players now hold.

I also agree that the "fury do more dps and heal like templars bs" is getting stale. It's about f'ing time it was fixed.

You know, you are right, let's fix things.

1. Replace Templar's reactives with Regens. This is what you guys want, right? All agree?

2. Give them powerful nukes. Good?

3. Give them SoW and group invis. Happy?

4. Replace plate armor with leather. Not happy? Too bad.

5. Take away their defensive buffs and give them offensive buffs. Great, or is it?

So now, we have 2 Fury classes, we can call them Fury A and Fury B or something like that. Hey, let's all get creative here, since we can't be creative when it comes to the actual game..

May be later some classes decide to follow similar path. Who needs versatility? We just actualy need 4 classes in the game: tank, mage, scout and priest. This way it's all balanced, no more fights and disagreements.

Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

Timaarit · 11-25-2005, 10:28 PM

stargazer5678 wrote:
Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

That 'thing' is totally in your (and other furies who think that templars are after nerfing furies) own head. Only people who mention nerfing furies are furies who come here to complain that templars want to nerf furies. Wake up. No one is demanding that furies should be nerfed.

Nari · 11-25-2005, 10:29 PM

stargazer5678 wrote:
Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

Who has said that? Just because templars are looking at the other priests for reference doesn't mean that everyone thinks you should be nerfed.

Andu · 11-25-2005, 10:50 PM

stargazer5678 wrote:

You know, you are right, let's fix things.

1. Replace Templar's reactives with Regens. This is what you guys want, right? All agree?

Obviously not, you are just being silly now.

2. Give them powerful nukes. Good?

Not necessarily nukes, just some DPS of some kind.

3. Give them SoW and group invis. Happy?

Nope, don't want either really. Just some useful utility, not random lotto proc heals that we cannot cast in time before the mob dies.

4. Replace plate armor with leather. Not happy? Too bad.

Cant say that would bother me in the slightest. After 5 mins in Ahket Aken I'll have more armour than I'll know what to do with anyway :smileyhappy:

5. Take away their defensive buffs and give them offensive buffs. Great, or is it?

Nope, don't want offensive buffs, that's an Inquisitor's job.

So now, we have 2 Fury classes, we can call them Fury A and Fury B or something like that. Hey, let's all get creative here, since we can't be creative when it comes to the actual game..

May be later some classes decide to follow similar path. Who needs versatility? We just actualy need 4 classes in the game: tank, mage, scout and priest. This way it's all balanced, no more fights and disagreements.

Your sarcasm is mildly funny but in the end you are right. However, it all boils down to the idiocy that is "all classes must heal equally". Because with 6 healing classes without any diversity in healing power, there is no room for diversity in utility and DPS.

Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

Can't ever remember seeing a Templar ask for furies to be nerfed (except in anger to some Fury trolling our board). You are just being paranoid because currently you are top of the tree and can feel the pressure (we know, we had that mantle before LU13). When SOE gets off their backsides to do something about this they will have the choice of improving 5 classes or nerfing 1 and all you Furies are terrified about them picking option 2 - to the extent you imagine everyone else is calling for nerfs to you. Everyone on the priest class boards does NOT want to see you guys nerfed. You have a fun and well balanced class. We just want to share the fun somehow.

Takeo1 · 11-25-2005, 11:41 PM

Anduri wrote:

stargazer5678 wrote:

Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

Can't ever remember seeing a Templar ask for furies to be nerfed (except in anger to some Fury trolling our board). You are just being paranoid because currently you are top of the tree and can feel the pressure (we know, we had that mantle before LU13). When SOE gets off their backsides to do something about this they will have the choice of improving 5 classes or nerfing 1 and all you Furies are terrified about them picking option 2 - to the extent you imagine everyone else is calling for nerfs to you. Everyone on the priest class boards does NOT want to see you guys nerfed. You have a fun and well balanced class. We just want to share the fun somehow.

Been getting the feeling that some of the Tree-huggers are a might bit too [Removed for Content] about us getting some dps bump, or even utility, but in support of your good reply Anduri...

I dont get it really. Then again - I dont want to have Fury dps, I want them to throw my extra power the healing way so I can go back to my primary job with others kneeling before me as the primary (along with Inqs, they REALLY should be an evil version with heavy O-buffs I am thinking) healer god that I am. Of course, I want to look good doing it, so lets give my armour and defensive whatnots a good go and set me loose. The rest can have all they have and more to grab that spot in their own way....

Look at it like this: its a point system aye? Right now the Tree-huggers have 10 points. Its good - I am glad for them. I dont want any of their points, even though I only have about 7 of my own. I want 3 more. And I want them in healing/def (personal and buffs). Now look hard - if the totem-lickers what their 3 in dps, or 2 in dps, and one in healing let them have it. We have some overall equality, but everyone gets to say they have a wee distinction aye? And everybody can group together and know - if you want certain abilities you go for certain classes of healers. Hell alot of times the type of tank decides that even now aye?

This isnt about cutting druids down to the ground, or even pruning them. I want them to keep all that they have, just like you do I think - it is my good leverage in getting me back to being the best I can be again.

Lates.

stargazer5678 · 11-25-2005, 11:47 PM

Anduri wrote:

stargazer5678 wrote:

You know, you are right, let's fix things.

1. Replace Templar's reactives with Regens. This is what you guys want, right? All agree?

Obviously not, you are just being silly now.

2. Give them powerful nukes. Good?

Not necessarily nukes, just some DPS of some kind.

3. Give them SoW and group invis. Happy?

Nope, don't want either really. Just some useful utility, not random lotto proc heals that we cannot cast in time before the mob dies.

4. Replace plate armor with leather. Not happy? Too bad.

Cant say that would bother me in the slightest. After 5 mins in Ahket Aken I'll have more armour than I'll know what to do with anyway :smileyhappy:

5. Take away their defensive buffs and give them offensive buffs. Great, or is it?

Nope, don't want offensive buffs, that's an Inquisitor's job.

So now, we have 2 Fury classes, we can call them Fury A and Fury B or something like that. Hey, let's all get creative here, since we can't be creative when it comes to the actual game..

May be later some classes decide to follow similar path. Who needs versatility? We just actualy need 4 classes in the game: tank, mage, scout and priest. This way it's all balanced, no more fights and disagreements.

Your sarcasm is mildly funny but in the end you are right. However, it all boils down to the idiocy that is "all classes must heal equally". Because with 6 healing classes without any diversity in healing power, there is no room for diversity in utility and DPS.

Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

Can't ever remember seeing a Templar ask for furies to be nerfed (except in anger to some Fury trolling our board). You are just being paranoid because currently you are top of the tree and can feel the pressure (we know, we had that mantle before LU13). When SOE gets off their backsides to do something about this they will have the choice of improving 5 classes or nerfing 1 and all you Furies are terrified about them picking option 2 - to the extent you imagine everyone else is calling for nerfs to you. Everyone on the priest class boards does NOT want to see you guys nerfed. You have a fun and well balanced class. We just want to share the fun somehow.

Ok, I am glad to hear that I was wrong about most Templars and that you guys just want your stuff to be fixed. From what I remember there were some Templars and Wardens posting on the furies boards regarding DPS and healing that could be classified as "nerf fury" posts. Glad that I was wrong.

It's just that INSTEAD OF being creative and suggesting new spells/imporved spells you just keep pointing at furies and saying "Look! Theay have this spell and that spell, that's unfair!" That was my main point.

One thing I'd like suggest regarding solo (I am sure I am not the first one, and I am also not suggesting that you shouldn't get more DPS).

I hear templars do noticeably more damage vs. undead. Undead is the most comon NPC in Norrah. I just hope that templars who want to solo take advantage of that. When I started playing on the Isle of refuge I mostly killed Goblins. I didn't kill any undead although there were some (as I know now SMILEY

Later I started killing Gnolls in The Caves, Antonica, and Black Burrow. I hated Stormhold and didn't really go there much. I only started killing undead in Thundering Steppes. Guess what though. I am "The slayer of undead" now, but not "The slayer of gnolls" or Goblins or anything else. This is just to prove that undead is the most comon NPC.

Now, I don't suggest that as a solution to the templar's DPS problem, but this is rather a temporary solution that can be used.

Yastreb, Fury 60, Oasis

Nari · 11-26-2005, 12:10 AM

That is why we have at least 2 very active suggestion threads. None of them say "Nerf the Fury" but I can post that in there if you wish. It seems that someone went to your section and started a bunch of crap so you have come here to return the favor. Thank you for realizing that most of us aren't out to get you. What purpose would that serve really? With a possibility of a fury being in one of the 24 slots in our raid group, why would we want you to suck? I like that you are trying to help us find some workarounds. I spent a lot of time killing undead in the steppes and the ruins of Varsoon myself, but it is nice to have a little more variety. I think that we have done a pretty good job explaining what it is about our class we wish were different. We may be arguing about particulars here and there, but it should be pretty easy to get a good idea of what we're hoping for. There is a lot of room to work around in within the suggestions that many of us have made. The developers have a pretty good opportunity to really improve things in a creative way. I am betting the last thing they would want would be for us to sit down and redesign the class for them.

Dalchar · 11-26-2005, 06:10 AM

Know what is funny? I just realized... Furies aren't the only ones with an additional heal on separate timer. Mystics get Torpor on it's own timer. Albeit it functions funky and has restrictions like the fury's does. /smacks forehead.

kenji · 11-26-2005, 06:46 AM

stargazer5678... u dont suggest templar ask for more dps, so what should we ask now?

soe claimed that every class should heal the same, thats mean we can give up on asking for more heals.

soe nerfed templar's buffs from 1500 ac to 500 ac, thats mean we can give up on asking for more defensive buffs.

now u ask us to give up on asking for more dps.

we are done then. maybe ask for more armor . sounds good! lets make a new post!

like i said before, Templar is superior only you / group fighting Undead + no-AoE + big Group of mobs + small fast hits.

Chog · 11-26-2005, 07:35 AM

Timaarit wrote:

quetzaqotl wrote:

If the group ste up is fury friendly sure go with a fury but there are different circumstances where another healer would shine more.

But that wouldn't be a good xp group then anymore. Fact no. 1: for XP setup, brawler tank is best. Fact no. 2 : fury is by far the best healer for brawler class.

Why state your opinion as facts?

Opinion1: Brawlers are not the best tank for an XP set-up for all situations. Against single encounters and no adds, I would agree. Multiple mob encounters or adds, that is stretching the truth very thin.

Opinion2: Fury is not the best healer for a Brawler Class.

Timaarit · 11-26-2005, 08:50 AM

Chogar wrote:
Opinion1: Brawlers are not the best tank for an XP set-up for all situations. Against single encounters and no adds, I would agree. Multiple mob encounters or adds, that is stretching the truth very thin.

Opinion2: Fury is not the best healer for a Brawler Class.

1. Brawlers do wery well against xp add. 2. Oh yes they are SMILEY

, especially in xp groups

Chog · 11-26-2005, 09:25 AM

Timaarit wrote:

Chogar wrote:
Opinion1: Brawlers are not the best tank for an XP set-up for all situations. Against single encounters and no adds, I would agree. Multiple mob encounters or adds, that is stretching the truth very thin.

Opinion2: Fury is not the best healer for a Brawler Class.

1. Brawlers do wery well against xp add.

2. Oh yes they are , especially in xp groups

1. Again opinion. Brawlers suck at keeping agro from multiple mobs (in the same encounter or seperate).

2. Again Opinion. Brawlers even state Fury's are not the best healer for their tanking style.

kenji · 11-26-2005, 11:49 AM

opinion 1, the tank able to keep the aggro, and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Brawler is the Tank class and all tank same good - from SoE, and brawler is the highest dps class in tank classes - from SoE, and the sticky on their board)

opinion 2, the healer can keep the group alive as other , and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Fury is the Priest class, and all priest should keep the group up equally - from SoE, and Fury is the highest dps class in priest classes - from SoE, and every fury knows that)

nothing from my thought, i just copy what SoE said, and what their own class thought.

Templar class board doesnt have a sticky, because no 1 know what they are good for.. maybe our shiny plate look pwns, but board mod doesnt agree with this.

------------

and about Proc rate (no matter heals / debuff), ppls should read that actual proc rate is about 1/3 of listed proc rate. go read illusionist post somewhere in the Spell board... they listed it very clear... what we have for real heal buff is a 7% listed 1-hit absorber, and a 5% listed group heal proc caused by melee only.

------------

my sign soon will be :

Lvl 60 Templar -- doesnt have Single Heals / Group Heals / DPS / Utilities than other priests. (cancelled)

lol

Message Edited by kenjiso on 11-25-2005 11:06 PM

Chog · 11-26-2005, 01:03 PM

kenjiso wrote:

opinion 1, the tank able to keep the aggro, and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Brawler is the Tank class and all tank same good - from SoE, and brawler is the highest dps class in tank classes - from SoE, and the sticky on their board)

That is your flaw. Brawlers = best single target agro control (from SOE). Warriors = Best Multiple mob agro control (from SOE). If you stick to single ^^^ mobs then yes, the Brawler will be the best. If you take on multiple mobs, the Brawler is no longer the best (For damage or Agro control).

opinion 2, the healer can keep the group alive as other , and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Fury is the Priest class, and all priest should keep the group up equally - from SoE, and Fury is the highest dps class in priest classes - from SoE, and every fury knows that)

Correct, every Priest should be able to keep a group alive. Being able to DPS and keep a group alive is a differnt story (please tell me where SOE stated healers can go all out on DPS and still keep a group alive as the sole healer against level appropriate content).

nothing from my thought, i just copy what SoE said, and what their own class thought.

Would not use the word "Copy." Twisted the words to your liking may be a better fit.

Templar class board doesnt have a sticky, because no 1 know what they are good for.. maybe our shiny plate look pwns, but board mod doesnt agree with this.

??? Does not have a sticky? What do you call the thing at the top of the board with the name Sticky next to it then?

------------

and about Proc rate (no matter heals / debuff), ppls should read that actual proc rate is about 1/3 of listed proc rate. go read illusionist post somewhere in the Spell board... they listed it very clear... what we have for real heal buff is a 7% listed 1-hit absorber, and a 5% listed group heal proc caused by melee only.

Proc rates are averaged out from 3 seconds. This allows a 2-hander to compete with Dual Wields for Proccing. There is a formula floating around that the Devs gave out a while back.

------------

my sign soon will be :

Lvl 60 Templar -- doesnt have Single Heals / Group Heals / DPS / Utilities than other priests. (cancelled)

lol

Message Edited by kenjiso on 11-25-2005 11:06 PM

Not into the entire sig then. Maybe...

Lvl: 60 Inquisitor The never mentioned. (active)

Timaarit · 11-26-2005, 08:54 PM

Chogar wrote:
1. Again opinion. Brawlers suck at keeping agro from multiple mobs (in the same encounter or seperate).

2. Again Opinion. Brawlers even state Fury's are not the best healer for their tanking style.

1. Funny, my monk has no problems with multiple mobs in same encounter. And not many with multiple encounters either. I guess it is more about the group then that about a single class. Fact is that in xp group, all that matters is DPS. Thus brawlers are the best tanks for xp groups. 2. Fury is the best for monk at least. Well, maybe warden could be better, but HoT's are a must when tank has large amoun of stuns in use. But for xp group, fury is the no. 1 choise.

Timaarit · 11-26-2005, 09:00 PM

Chogar wrote:

kenjiso wrote:
opinion 2, the healer can keep the group alive as other , and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Fury is the Priest class, and all priest should keep the group up equally - from SoE, and Fury is the highest dps class in priest classes - from SoE, and every fury knows that)

Correct, every Priest should be able to keep a group alive. Being able to DPS and keep a group alive is a differnt story (please tell me where SOE stated healers can go all out on DPS and still keep a group alive as the sole healer against level appropriate content).

Now this is what bothers me. Why is it so? Why can a fury keep every tank alive with near equal ease, but clerics especially have huge dificulties with avoidance tanks? IMO they should pair the tanks so that highest DPS healer can heal lowest DPS tank and vice versa. Thus pairs would be close to Druid - Warrior, Shaman - Crusader and Cleric - Brawler. As it is, lowest dps healer is good at healing lowest dps tank also and highest dps healer is the best to heal highest dps tank. Note that the highest dps healer is equally good across the board when it comes to healing. So in fact it is just not the healers that are imbalanced, it is the whole grouping system. Clearly all classes are not equal even when it comes to the core of the game - grouping, let alone soloing.

Quijonsith · 11-26-2005, 09:41 PM

1: My monk has no problem holding aggro on multiple targets. Just gotta cycle through them and have the group stay on one mob at a time (or let the mages aoe, which still hasn't pulled off me). Dragon Advance is wonderful. 2: With my 53 Templar I've preffered brawlers over plate tanks in alot of situations. I have absolutely no problem keeping them alive. (ESP with GoC Adept 3 helping) 3: Who can heal who is entirely situational and depends on the player's strategy and skill. Edit: On my monk I've enjoyed having a warden healing me more than anyone, but maybe it was just the player. I've had Inquisitors do a wonderful job aswell. I've only had a mystic healing me once and it was kinda scary when the ward got blown through and all the mystic had was her relatively weak direct heals (relative to templar).

Message Edited by Quijonsith on 11-26-2005 08:44 AM

Chog · 11-27-2005, 06:40 AM

Timaarit wrote:

Chogar wrote:

1. Again opinion. Brawlers suck at keeping agro from multiple mobs (in the same encounter or seperate).

2. Again Opinion. Brawlers even state Fury's are not the best healer for their tanking style.

1. Funny, my monk has no problems with multiple mobs in same encounter. And not many with multiple encounters either. I guess it is more about the group then that about a single class. Fact is that in xp group, all that matters is DPS. Thus brawlers are the best tanks for xp groups.

2. Fury is the best for monk at least. Well, maybe warden could be better, but HoT's are a must when tank has large amoun of stuns in use. But for xp group, fury is the no. 1 choise.

Like I said, oppinion. You labeld them as a fact when they are your oppinion. In your eyes Brawlers and Furys make the best "base" of an exp grind group. You say it is a fact, I say it is your oppinion.

Timaarit · 11-27-2005, 01:03 PM

Chogar wrote:Like I said, oppinion. You labeld them as a fact when they are your oppinion. In your eyes Brawlers and Furys make the best "base" of an exp grind group. You say it is a fact, I say it is your oppinion.

Not really. It can be even proven mathematically. So it is not an opinion :smileywink:

Chog · 11-27-2005, 01:45 PM

Timaarit wrote:

Chogar wrote:
Like I said, oppinion. You labeld them as a fact when they are your oppinion. In your eyes Brawlers and Furys make the best "base" of an exp grind group. You say it is a fact, I say it is your oppinion.

Not really. It can be even proven mathematically. So it is not an opinion :smileywink:

Then prove it mathmaticly. Bruiser + Fury does not equal the best base for an exp grind in all situations. I am not arguing that Furys have higher DPS then other healers. I am not arguing that Brusiers have the highest single target damage against other fighters. What I am saying the "best" group is situational, an opinion, and relies more upon skill then numbers.

Timaarit · 11-27-2005, 07:36 PM

Chogar wrote: Then prove it mathmaticly. Bruiser + Fury does not equal the best base for an exp grind in all situations. I am not arguing that Furys have higher DPS then other healers. I am not arguing that Brusiers have the highest single target damage against other fighters. What I am saying the "best" group is situational, an opinion, and relies more upon skill then numbers.

Ah, 'skill'... So you want to compare player A with brawer and no skill to player B with another fighter and who also can play. No. With generic player X (skill or no skill), brawler is the best for XP. Same goes for fury. Of course skill comes to view when you compare different players. But with a certain player, if they can play one class, they can learn another just as well. So skill comes to view when you are comparing fighter A played by B to fighter X played by Y. If you compare fighter A to fighter B played by the same person, skill has nothing to do with it. Not if they have played the character to high levels themselves.

Takeo1 · 11-28-2005, 02:13 AM

I AM THE BEST HEALER! I AM!

-ahem

Anyways, I can see the lads points about this Bruiser + Fury = the DPS and Healing Combo. See, if the Brusier has good avoid, he is gonna get good benefits outta that Fury HoT set. Not to mention those buffs, they do have a few O-Buff now dont they? So while those HoTs are sounding off, and the Bruiser is dodging to and fro, the Fury can land some....shall we say decent?...nukes to assist in the kills. The Bruiser I am thinking has good dps all by his onesies, at least compared to other tankers. Thats alot of dps I am thinking, with a solid healer/tank match. Seems like you would have to be fairly poor in skills to fail with that...

But on topic of skill, it isnt like this game is like the original in that respect. With the loss of alot of the class distinctions have gone the loss of alot of the chance for a player to...rise above. Being realistic, it isnt that hard to push these buttons nowdays, the linkage made the choices even easier. Long casters in short fights? No. Lotto in short fight? No. Not unless its a buff aye? Bah - its not really a thinking man's game now is it? Be serious. Even with the parses, and with all respect to those who spend the time to do these parses, it isnt like even against the harder mobs, you can figure a strat in a go or three. Healing now reminds me alot of the Chains in EQ.

I remember why I preferred me Bard. Alot of twisting before the /song patch. Could distinguish yourself with pulls, in combat CC, bouncing aggro with group DA...and this game was headed that way at one time. But to say now that it depends alot on skill....just how many buttons do you push and how many targets do you have in a group or raid?

Lets face it all, skill has a hell of alot less to do with this game than class. And I am not just talking about character class.

Lates.

Chog · 11-28-2005, 04:54 PM

Timaarit wrote:

Ah, 'skill'... So you want to compare player A with brawer and no skill to player B with another fighter and who also can play.

No. With generic player X (skill or no skill), brawler is the best for XP. Same goes for fury.

Of course skill comes to view when you compare different players. But with a certain player, if they can play one class, they can learn another just as well. So skill comes to view when you are comparing fighter A played by B to fighter X played by Y. If you compare fighter A to fighter B played by the same person, skill has nothing to do with it. Not if they have played the character to high levels themselves.

Like I said an opinion not fact. Even with every factor being equal (Skill / items / etc) the situation will ditact what class combination is the best at that time. Your opinion is Fury + Bruiser = end all be all of an exp grind group. My opinion differs.

Timaarit · 11-28-2005, 05:44 PM

Chogar wrote:
Like I said an opinion not fact. Even with every factor being equal (Skill / items / etc) the situation will ditact what class combination is the best at that time. Your opinion is Fury + Bruiser = end all be all of an exp grind group. My opinion differs.

All right, lets hear from you what you think is the best duo combination for xp. And why. Also what is the best tank + healer combination for xp group. And why.

Message Edited by Timaarit on 11-28-2005 02:45 PM

quetzaqotl · 11-28-2005, 05:47 PM

Hmm tim he's saying theres no "best" it all depends on the player behind the keyboard and how well geared the player is.

Talking about the best is speculation its like comparing who's stronger the hulk or superman.

Ah well some kids love to do that too I guess.

Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-28-2005 04:48 AM

Timaarit · 11-28-2005, 06:01 PM

quetzaqotl wrote:

Hmm tim he's saying theres no "best" it all depends on the player behind the keyboard and how well geared the player is.

Talking about the best is speculation its like comparing who's stronger the hulk or superman.

Ah well some kids love to do that too I guess.

And I am saying that the player only depends when you look at two different players playing the same class. But when you compare two different classes played by the same player, the class does mean a lot. And comparing two different classes with two different players does not tell anything to someone who is actually picking up a class to play. For example our guilds new fury is already as good healer as he was when he played inquisitor. I am as good tank as a healer I used to be. I have no doubts that you couldn't be as good mage as you are a fury now. So comparing two people playing different toons gives no information about anything. On the other hand, objectively comparing classes without argument 'it depends on who is playing' does. Of course a person who has played a paladin to lvl 60 is better for XP group than someone who just bought his lvl 60 brawler. But had he bought lvl 60 paladin, the latter would be even worse.

stargazer5678 · 11-28-2005, 06:24 PM

Timaarit wrote:

quetzaqotl wrote:

Hmm tim he's saying theres no "best" it all depends on the player behind the keyboard and how well geared the player is.

Talking about the best is speculation its like comparing who's stronger the hulk or superman.

Ah well some kids love to do that too I guess.

And I am saying that the player only depends when you look at two different players playing the same class. But when you compare two different classes played by the same player, the class does mean a lot. And comparing two different classes with two different players does not tell anything to someone who is actually picking up a class to play.

For example our guilds new fury is already as good healer as he was when he played inquisitor. I am as good tank as a healer I used to be. I have no doubts that you couldn't be as good mage as you are a fury now. So comparing two people playing different toons gives no information about anything. On the other hand, objectively comparing classes without argument 'it depends on who is playing' does. Of course a person who has played a paladin to lvl 60 is better for XP group than someone who just bought his lvl 60 brawler. But had he bought lvl 60 paladin, the latter would be even worse.

All right. I grouped a lot with Monks and Bruisers. My opinion is that they can be very good tanks, but then again, you guessed it, it's SITUATIONAL. I totally agree that they are the best against single target, and I also totally agree that they are not the best against grouped mobs!. I actually talked about this issue with 3 or 4 Monks about couple of weeks ago. They all confirmed that it's a challenge to keep aggro when engaging a grouped target. Not that it's impossible, mind you, but challenging. So, in many cases healers have to switch between different group members healing them. Ideal XP group you say? Not always. This is my opinion, I don't claim anything.

This game is so diverse I would be suprised if there was a perfect XP group for all cases.. It just depends on so many factors. Again, not saying templars shouldn't get more DPS, just expressing my opinion about "best XP group".

Big Da · 11-28-2005, 06:59 PM

Brigand + Templar SMILEY

11-25-2005, 06:34 PM	#91
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	quetzaqotl wrote: Oh my then its not the furies fault then I blame those pesky brawlers! Really now tim :smileyvery-happy: Well for xp group, pick one of these: A: healing 1000, damage 100 B: healing 950, damage 300 If you say A, I will know you have never been in xp group.

11-25-2005, 06:59 PM	#92
Andu General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 578	REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 11-28-2005 11:42 AM __________________

11-25-2005, 09:42 PM	#93
stargazer5678 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 123	Anduri wrote: quetzaqotl wrote: Well they mentioned a templar in there too noone mentioned a warden, mystic, defiler or an inquisitor guess theyre more broken than templars then eh? If someone starts building a group with mages and a dps tank like a bruiser people add things to it sure if you group with a couple of mages it's not strange that you want a fury for the int buffs when your grouping with more than 2 mages. If the group ste up is fury friendly sure go with a fury but there are different circumstances where another healer would shine more. Also who died and made them god btw? So if 4 people pick a fury cause the previous poster had a fury in group, does that prove anything? No dont think so, nice of you to drag a thread in here guess youll now link the thread of the perfect raid force: 8 bruisers+16 furies and say how unbeatable that is lol. People are blinded. And again maybe it would be fun to try and compare yourself to another healing class who think theyre fine, cause that would make em overpowered eh. Hmm maybe do a templars vs inq comparison or maybe against a defiler or mystic or whatever as this whole fury do more dps and heal like templars bs is getting stale. Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-25-2005 05:10 AM I'm not saying any of those things. I merely make the point (that some Templar's have disputed) that if a Fury and another healer put their LFG flags on I know who I'm putting my money on over who gets a group first. Noone died and made them god, they are merely representative of the view that most players now hold. I also agree that the "fury do more dps and heal like templars bs" is getting stale. It's about f'ing time it was fixed. You know, you are right, let's fix things. 1. Replace Templar's reactives with Regens. This is what you guys want, right? All agree? 2. Give them powerful nukes. Good? 3. Give them SoW and group invis. Happy? 4. Replace plate armor with leather. Not happy? Too bad. 5. Take away their defensive buffs and give them offensive buffs. Great, or is it? So now, we have 2 Fury classes, we can call them Fury A and Fury B or something like that. Hey, let's all get creative here, since we can't be creative when it comes to the actual game.. May be later some classes decide to follow similar path. Who needs versatility? We just actualy need 4 classes in the game: tank, mage, scout and priest. This way it's all balanced, no more fights and disagreements. Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing.

11-25-2005, 10:28 PM	#94
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	stargazer5678 wrote: Stop the "nerf fury" thing. That 'thing' is totally in your (and other furies who think that templars are after nerfing furies) own head. Only people who mention nerfing furies are furies who come here to complain that templars want to nerf furies. Wake up. No one is demanding that furies should be nerfed.

11-25-2005, 10:29 PM	#95
Nari Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Herndon, VA Posts: 356	stargazer5678 wrote: Stop the "nerf fury" thing. Who has said that? Just because templars are looking at the other priests for reference doesn't mean that everyone thinks you should be nerfed.

11-25-2005, 10:50 PM	#96
Andu General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 578	stargazer5678 wrote: You know, you are right, let's fix things. 1. Replace Templar's reactives with Regens. This is what you guys want, right? All agree? Obviously not, you are just being silly now. 2. Give them powerful nukes. Good? Not necessarily nukes, just some DPS of some kind. 3. Give them SoW and group invis. Happy? Nope, don't want either really. Just some useful utility, not random lotto proc heals that we cannot cast in time before the mob dies. 4. Replace plate armor with leather. Not happy? Too bad. Cant say that would bother me in the slightest. After 5 mins in Ahket Aken I'll have more armour than I'll know what to do with anyway :smileyhappy: 5. Take away their defensive buffs and give them offensive buffs. Great, or is it? Nope, don't want offensive buffs, that's an Inquisitor's job. So now, we have 2 Fury classes, we can call them Fury A and Fury B or something like that. Hey, let's all get creative here, since we can't be creative when it comes to the actual game.. May be later some classes decide to follow similar path. Who needs versatility? We just actualy need 4 classes in the game: tank, mage, scout and priest. This way it's all balanced, no more fights and disagreements. Your sarcasm is mildly funny but in the end you are right. However, it all boils down to the idiocy that is "all classes must heal equally". Because with 6 healing classes without any diversity in healing power, there is no room for diversity in utility and DPS. Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing. Can't ever remember seeing a Templar ask for furies to be nerfed (except in anger to some Fury trolling our board). You are just being paranoid because currently you are top of the tree and can feel the pressure (we know, we had that mantle before LU13). When SOE gets off their backsides to do something about this they will have the choice of improving 5 classes or nerfing 1 and all you Furies are terrified about them picking option 2 - to the extent you imagine everyone else is calling for nerfs to you. Everyone on the priest class boards does NOT want to see you guys nerfed. You have a fun and well balanced class. We just want to share the fun somehow. __________________

11-25-2005, 11:41 PM	#97
Takeo1 Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 107	Anduri wrote: stargazer5678 wrote: Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing. Can't ever remember seeing a Templar ask for furies to be nerfed (except in anger to some Fury trolling our board). You are just being paranoid because currently you are top of the tree and can feel the pressure (we know, we had that mantle before LU13). When SOE gets off their backsides to do something about this they will have the choice of improving 5 classes or nerfing 1 and all you Furies are terrified about them picking option 2 - to the extent you imagine everyone else is calling for nerfs to you. Everyone on the priest class boards does NOT want to see you guys nerfed. You have a fun and well balanced class. We just want to share the fun somehow. Been getting the feeling that some of the Tree-huggers are a might bit too [Removed for Content] about us getting some dps bump, or even utility, but in support of your good reply Anduri... I dont get it really. Then again - I dont want to have Fury dps, I want them to throw my extra power the healing way so I can go back to my primary job with others kneeling before me as the primary (along with Inqs, they REALLY should be an evil version with heavy O-buffs I am thinking) healer god that I am. Of course, I want to look good doing it, so lets give my armour and defensive whatnots a good go and set me loose. The rest can have all they have and more to grab that spot in their own way.... Look at it like this: its a point system aye? Right now the Tree-huggers have 10 points. Its good - I am glad for them. I dont want any of their points, even though I only have about 7 of my own. I want 3 more. And I want them in healing/def (personal and buffs). Now look hard - if the totem-lickers what their 3 in dps, or 2 in dps, and one in healing let them have it. We have some overall equality, but everyone gets to say they have a wee distinction aye? And everybody can group together and know - if you want certain abilities you go for certain classes of healers. Hell alot of times the type of tank decides that even now aye? This isnt about cutting druids down to the ground, or even pruning them. I want them to keep all that they have, just like you do I think - it is my good leverage in getting me back to being the best I can be again. Lates.

11-25-2005, 11:47 PM	#98
stargazer5678 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 123	Anduri wrote: stargazer5678 wrote: You know, you are right, let's fix things. 1. Replace Templar's reactives with Regens. This is what you guys want, right? All agree? Obviously not, you are just being silly now. 2. Give them powerful nukes. Good? Not necessarily nukes, just some DPS of some kind. 3. Give them SoW and group invis. Happy? Nope, don't want either really. Just some useful utility, not random lotto proc heals that we cannot cast in time before the mob dies. 4. Replace plate armor with leather. Not happy? Too bad. Cant say that would bother me in the slightest. After 5 mins in Ahket Aken I'll have more armour than I'll know what to do with anyway :smileyhappy: 5. Take away their defensive buffs and give them offensive buffs. Great, or is it? Nope, don't want offensive buffs, that's an Inquisitor's job. So now, we have 2 Fury classes, we can call them Fury A and Fury B or something like that. Hey, let's all get creative here, since we can't be creative when it comes to the actual game.. May be later some classes decide to follow similar path. Who needs versatility? We just actualy need 4 classes in the game: tank, mage, scout and priest. This way it's all balanced, no more fights and disagreements. Your sarcasm is mildly funny but in the end you are right. However, it all boils down to the idiocy that is "all classes must heal equally". Because with 6 healing classes without any diversity in healing power, there is no room for diversity in utility and DPS. Am I twisting it? Is it too much? Probably. Just trying to get my point across. You can't have it all or else the game will change in such a way that you will hate it and quit soon. I truly believe that Templars have no right to claim that Furies get extra healing. Play our class then judge. We do more DPS, this is undeniable and intentional. You want to get more DPS? By all means. Should your DPS equal Furie's DPS? No. I understand that templars have some problems. Just stick together figure out the problems, agree on them and come up with the fix(s) and send your suggestions to devs. Stop the "nerf fury" thing. Can't ever remember seeing a Templar ask for furies to be nerfed (except in anger to some Fury trolling our board). You are just being paranoid because currently you are top of the tree and can feel the pressure (we know, we had that mantle before LU13). When SOE gets off their backsides to do something about this they will have the choice of improving 5 classes or nerfing 1 and all you Furies are terrified about them picking option 2 - to the extent you imagine everyone else is calling for nerfs to you. Everyone on the priest class boards does NOT want to see you guys nerfed. You have a fun and well balanced class. We just want to share the fun somehow. Ok, I am glad to hear that I was wrong about most Templars and that you guys just want your stuff to be fixed. From what I remember there were some Templars and Wardens posting on the furies boards regarding DPS and healing that could be classified as "nerf fury" posts. Glad that I was wrong. It's just that INSTEAD OF being creative and suggesting new spells/imporved spells you just keep pointing at furies and saying "Look! Theay have this spell and that spell, that's unfair!" That was my main point. One thing I'd like suggest regarding solo (I am sure I am not the first one, and I am also not suggesting that you shouldn't get more DPS). I hear templars do noticeably more damage vs. undead. Undead is the most comon NPC in Norrah. I just hope that templars who want to solo take advantage of that. When I started playing on the Isle of refuge I mostly killed Goblins. I didn't kill any undead although there were some (as I know now Later I started killing Gnolls in The Caves, Antonica, and Black Burrow. I hated Stormhold and didn't really go there much. I only started killing undead in Thundering Steppes. Guess what though. I am "The slayer of undead" now, but not "The slayer of gnolls" or Goblins or anything else. This is just to prove that undead is the most comon NPC. Now, I don't suggest that as a solution to the templar's DPS problem, but this is rather a temporary solution that can be used. Yastreb, Fury 60, Oasis

11-26-2005, 12:10 AM	#99
Nari Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Herndon, VA Posts: 356	That is why we have at least 2 very active suggestion threads. None of them say "Nerf the Fury" but I can post that in there if you wish. It seems that someone went to your section and started a bunch of crap so you have come here to return the favor. Thank you for realizing that most of us aren't out to get you. What purpose would that serve really? With a possibility of a fury being in one of the 24 slots in our raid group, why would we want you to suck? I like that you are trying to help us find some workarounds. I spent a lot of time killing undead in the steppes and the ruins of Varsoon myself, but it is nice to have a little more variety. I think that we have done a pretty good job explaining what it is about our class we wish were different. We may be arguing about particulars here and there, but it should be pretty easy to get a good idea of what we're hoping for. There is a lot of room to work around in within the suggestions that many of us have made. The developers have a pretty good opportunity to really improve things in a creative way. I am betting the last thing they would want would be for us to sit down and redesign the class for them.

11-26-2005, 06:10 AM	#100
Dalchar Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 203	Know what is funny? I just realized... Furies aren't the only ones with an additional heal on separate timer. Mystics get Torpor on it's own timer. Albeit it functions funky and has restrictions like the fury's does. /smacks forehead. __________________ Graace And Whyll Fury & Warlock The Bazaar Dark Horizon

11-26-2005, 06:46 AM	#101
kenji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 718	stargazer5678... u dont suggest templar ask for more dps, so what should we ask now? soe claimed that every class should heal the same, thats mean we can give up on asking for more heals. soe nerfed templar's buffs from 1500 ac to 500 ac, thats mean we can give up on asking for more defensive buffs. now u ask us to give up on asking for more dps. we are done then. maybe ask for more armor . sounds good! lets make a new post! like i said before, Templar is superior only you / group fighting Undead + no-AoE + big Group of mobs + small fast hits.

11-26-2005, 07:35 AM	#102
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Timaarit wrote: quetzaqotl wrote: If the group ste up is fury friendly sure go with a fury but there are different circumstances where another healer would shine more. But that wouldn't be a good xp group then anymore. Fact no. 1: for XP setup, brawler tank is best. Fact no. 2 : fury is by far the best healer for brawler class. Why state your opinion as facts? Opinion1: Brawlers are not the best tank for an XP set-up for all situations. Against single encounters and no adds, I would agree. Multiple mob encounters or adds, that is stretching the truth very thin. Opinion2: Fury is not the best healer for a Brawler Class. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

11-26-2005, 08:50 AM	#103
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Chogar wrote: Opinion1: Brawlers are not the best tank for an XP set-up for all situations. Against single encounters and no adds, I would agree. Multiple mob encounters or adds, that is stretching the truth very thin. Opinion2: Fury is not the best healer for a Brawler Class. 1. Brawlers do wery well against xp add. 2. Oh yes they are , especially in xp groups

11-26-2005, 09:25 AM	#104
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Timaarit wrote: Chogar wrote: Opinion1: Brawlers are not the best tank for an XP set-up for all situations. Against single encounters and no adds, I would agree. Multiple mob encounters or adds, that is stretching the truth very thin. Opinion2: Fury is not the best healer for a Brawler Class. 1. Brawlers do wery well against xp add. 2. Oh yes they are , especially in xp groups 1. Again opinion. Brawlers suck at keeping agro from multiple mobs (in the same encounter or seperate). 2. Again Opinion. Brawlers even state Fury's are not the best healer for their tanking style. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

11-26-2005, 11:49 AM	#105
kenji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 718	opinion 1, the tank able to keep the aggro, and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Brawler is the Tank class and all tank same good - from SoE, and brawler is the highest dps class in tank classes - from SoE, and the sticky on their board) opinion 2, the healer can keep the group alive as other , and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Fury is the Priest class, and all priest should keep the group up equally - from SoE, and Fury is the highest dps class in priest classes - from SoE, and every fury knows that) nothing from my thought, i just copy what SoE said, and what their own class thought. Templar class board doesnt have a sticky, because no 1 know what they are good for.. maybe our shiny plate look pwns, but board mod doesnt agree with this. ------------ and about Proc rate (no matter heals / debuff), ppls should read that actual proc rate is about 1/3 of listed proc rate. go read illusionist post somewhere in the Spell board... they listed it very clear... what we have for real heal buff is a 7% listed 1-hit absorber, and a 5% listed group heal proc caused by melee only. ------------ my sign soon will be : Lvl 60 Templar -- doesnt have Single Heals / Group Heals / DPS / Utilities than other priests. (cancelled) lol Message Edited by kenjiso on 11-25-2005 11:06 PM

11-26-2005, 01:03 PM	#106
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	kenjiso wrote: opinion 1, the tank able to keep the aggro, and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Brawler is the Tank class and all tank same good - from SoE, and brawler is the highest dps class in tank classes - from SoE, and the sticky on their board) That is your flaw. Brawlers = best single target agro control (from SOE). Warriors = Best Multiple mob agro control (from SOE). If you stick to single ^^^ mobs then yes, the Brawler will be the best. If you take on multiple mobs, the Brawler is no longer the best (For damage or Agro control). opinion 2, the healer can keep the group alive as other , and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Fury is the Priest class, and all priest should keep the group up equally - from SoE, and Fury is the highest dps class in priest classes - from SoE, and every fury knows that) Correct, every Priest should be able to keep a group alive. Being able to DPS and keep a group alive is a differnt story (please tell me where SOE stated healers can go all out on DPS and still keep a group alive as the sole healer against level appropriate content). nothing from my thought, i just copy what SoE said, and what their own class thought. Would not use the word "Copy." Twisted the words to your liking may be a better fit. Templar class board doesnt have a sticky, because no 1 know what they are good for.. maybe our shiny plate look pwns, but board mod doesnt agree with this. ??? Does not have a sticky? What do you call the thing at the top of the board with the name Sticky next to it then? ------------ and about Proc rate (no matter heals / debuff), ppls should read that actual proc rate is about 1/3 of listed proc rate. go read illusionist post somewhere in the Spell board... they listed it very clear... what we have for real heal buff is a 7% listed 1-hit absorber, and a 5% listed group heal proc caused by melee only. Proc rates are averaged out from 3 seconds. This allows a 2-hander to compete with Dual Wields for Proccing. There is a formula floating around that the Devs gave out a while back. ------------ my sign soon will be : Lvl 60 Templar -- doesnt have Single Heals / Group Heals / DPS / Utilities than other priests. (cancelled) lol Message Edited by kenjiso on 11-25-2005 11:06 PM Not into the entire sig then. Maybe... Lvl: 60 Inquisitor The never mentioned. (active) __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

11-26-2005, 08:54 PM	#107
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Chogar wrote: 1. Again opinion. Brawlers suck at keeping agro from multiple mobs (in the same encounter or seperate). 2. Again Opinion. Brawlers even state Fury's are not the best healer for their tanking style. 1. Funny, my monk has no problems with multiple mobs in same encounter. And not many with multiple encounters either. I guess it is more about the group then that about a single class. Fact is that in xp group, all that matters is DPS. Thus brawlers are the best tanks for xp groups. 2. Fury is the best for monk at least. Well, maybe warden could be better, but HoT's are a must when tank has large amoun of stuns in use. But for xp group, fury is the no. 1 choise.

11-26-2005, 09:00 PM	#108
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Chogar wrote: kenjiso wrote: opinion 2, the healer can keep the group alive as other , and deal most dps = best xp (opinion : Fury is the Priest class, and all priest should keep the group up equally - from SoE, and Fury is the highest dps class in priest classes - from SoE, and every fury knows that) Correct, every Priest should be able to keep a group alive. Being able to DPS and keep a group alive is a differnt story (please tell me where SOE stated healers can go all out on DPS and still keep a group alive as the sole healer against level appropriate content). Now this is what bothers me. Why is it so? Why can a fury keep every tank alive with near equal ease, but clerics especially have huge dificulties with avoidance tanks? IMO they should pair the tanks so that highest DPS healer can heal lowest DPS tank and vice versa. Thus pairs would be close to Druid - Warrior, Shaman - Crusader and Cleric - Brawler. As it is, lowest dps healer is good at healing lowest dps tank also and highest dps healer is the best to heal highest dps tank. Note that the highest dps healer is equally good across the board when it comes to healing. So in fact it is just not the healers that are imbalanced, it is the whole grouping system. Clearly all classes are not equal even when it comes to the core of the game - grouping, let alone soloing.

11-26-2005, 09:41 PM	#109
Quijonsith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	1: My monk has no problem holding aggro on multiple targets. Just gotta cycle through them and have the group stay on one mob at a time (or let the mages aoe, which still hasn't pulled off me). Dragon Advance is wonderful. 2: With my 53 Templar I've preffered brawlers over plate tanks in alot of situations. I have absolutely no problem keeping them alive. (ESP with GoC Adept 3 helping) 3: Who can heal who is entirely situational and depends on the player's strategy and skill. Edit: On my monk I've enjoyed having a warden healing me more than anyone, but maybe it was just the player. I've had Inquisitors do a wonderful job aswell. I've only had a mystic healing me once and it was kinda scary when the ward got blown through and all the mystic had was her relatively weak direct heals (relative to templar). Message Edited by Quijonsith on 11-26-2005 08:44 AM __________________ Just my two cents, ok maybe $.50. Main: Goddli D'Offtank 70 Templar on Antonia Bayle Alts: 50 Monk, 23 Dirge, 20 Wizard, 27 Necro

11-27-2005, 06:40 AM	#110
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Timaarit wrote: Chogar wrote: 1. Again opinion. Brawlers suck at keeping agro from multiple mobs (in the same encounter or seperate). 2. Again Opinion. Brawlers even state Fury's are not the best healer for their tanking style. 1. Funny, my monk has no problems with multiple mobs in same encounter. And not many with multiple encounters either. I guess it is more about the group then that about a single class. Fact is that in xp group, all that matters is DPS. Thus brawlers are the best tanks for xp groups. 2. Fury is the best for monk at least. Well, maybe warden could be better, but HoT's are a must when tank has large amoun of stuns in use. But for xp group, fury is the no. 1 choise. Like I said, oppinion. You labeld them as a fact when they are your oppinion. In your eyes Brawlers and Furys make the best "base" of an exp grind group. You say it is a fact, I say it is your oppinion. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

11-27-2005, 01:03 PM	#111
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Chogar wrote:Like I said, oppinion. You labeld them as a fact when they are your oppinion. In your eyes Brawlers and Furys make the best "base" of an exp grind group. You say it is a fact, I say it is your oppinion. Not really. It can be even proven mathematically. So it is not an opinion :smileywink:

11-27-2005, 01:45 PM	#112
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Timaarit wrote: Chogar wrote: Like I said, oppinion. You labeld them as a fact when they are your oppinion. In your eyes Brawlers and Furys make the best "base" of an exp grind group. You say it is a fact, I say it is your oppinion. Not really. It can be even proven mathematically. So it is not an opinion :smileywink: Then prove it mathmaticly. Bruiser + Fury does not equal the best base for an exp grind in all situations. I am not arguing that Furys have higher DPS then other healers. I am not arguing that Brusiers have the highest single target damage against other fighters. What I am saying the "best" group is situational, an opinion, and relies more upon skill then numbers. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

11-27-2005, 07:36 PM	#113
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Chogar wrote: Then prove it mathmaticly. Bruiser + Fury does not equal the best base for an exp grind in all situations. I am not arguing that Furys have higher DPS then other healers. I am not arguing that Brusiers have the highest single target damage against other fighters. What I am saying the "best" group is situational, an opinion, and relies more upon skill then numbers. Ah, 'skill'... So you want to compare player A with brawer and no skill to player B with another fighter and who also can play. No. With generic player X (skill or no skill), brawler is the best for XP. Same goes for fury. Of course skill comes to view when you compare different players. But with a certain player, if they can play one class, they can learn another just as well. So skill comes to view when you are comparing fighter A played by B to fighter X played by Y. If you compare fighter A to fighter B played by the same person, skill has nothing to do with it. Not if they have played the character to high levels themselves.

11-28-2005, 02:13 AM	#114
Takeo1 Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 107	I AM THE BEST HEALER! I AM! -ahem Anyways, I can see the lads points about this Bruiser + Fury = the DPS and Healing Combo. See, if the Brusier has good avoid, he is gonna get good benefits outta that Fury HoT set. Not to mention those buffs, they do have a few O-Buff now dont they? So while those HoTs are sounding off, and the Bruiser is dodging to and fro, the Fury can land some....shall we say decent?...nukes to assist in the kills. The Bruiser I am thinking has good dps all by his onesies, at least compared to other tankers. Thats alot of dps I am thinking, with a solid healer/tank match. Seems like you would have to be fairly poor in skills to fail with that... But on topic of skill, it isnt like this game is like the original in that respect. With the loss of alot of the class distinctions have gone the loss of alot of the chance for a player to...rise above. Being realistic, it isnt that hard to push these buttons nowdays, the linkage made the choices even easier. Long casters in short fights? No. Lotto in short fight? No. Not unless its a buff aye? Bah - its not really a thinking man's game now is it? Be serious. Even with the parses, and with all respect to those who spend the time to do these parses, it isnt like even against the harder mobs, you can figure a strat in a go or three. Healing now reminds me alot of the Chains in EQ. I remember why I preferred me Bard. Alot of twisting before the /song patch. Could distinguish yourself with pulls, in combat CC, bouncing aggro with group DA...and this game was headed that way at one time. But to say now that it depends alot on skill....just how many buttons do you push and how many targets do you have in a group or raid? Lets face it all, skill has a hell of alot less to do with this game than class. And I am not just talking about character class. Lates.

11-28-2005, 04:54 PM	#115
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Timaarit wrote: Ah, 'skill'... So you want to compare player A with brawer and no skill to player B with another fighter and who also can play. No. With generic player X (skill or no skill), brawler is the best for XP. Same goes for fury. Of course skill comes to view when you compare different players. But with a certain player, if they can play one class, they can learn another just as well. So skill comes to view when you are comparing fighter A played by B to fighter X played by Y. If you compare fighter A to fighter B played by the same person, skill has nothing to do with it. Not if they have played the character to high levels themselves. Like I said an opinion not fact. Even with every factor being equal (Skill / items / etc) the situation will ditact what class combination is the best at that time. Your opinion is Fury + Bruiser = end all be all of an exp grind group. My opinion differs. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

11-28-2005, 05:44 PM	#116
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Chogar wrote: Like I said an opinion not fact. Even with every factor being equal (Skill / items / etc) the situation will ditact what class combination is the best at that time. Your opinion is Fury + Bruiser = end all be all of an exp grind group. My opinion differs. All right, lets hear from you what you think is the best duo combination for xp. And why. Also what is the best tank + healer combination for xp group. And why. Message Edited by Timaarit on 11-28-2005 02:45 PM

11-28-2005, 05:47 PM	#117
quetzaqotl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,336	Hmm tim he's saying theres no "best" it all depends on the player behind the keyboard and how well geared the player is. Talking about the best is speculation its like comparing who's stronger the hulk or superman. Ah well some kids love to do that too I guess. Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-28-2005 04:48 AM __________________

11-28-2005, 06:01 PM	#118
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	quetzaqotl wrote: Hmm tim he's saying theres no "best" it all depends on the player behind the keyboard and how well geared the player is. Talking about the best is speculation its like comparing who's stronger the hulk or superman. Ah well some kids love to do that too I guess. And I am saying that the player only depends when you look at two different players playing the same class. But when you compare two different classes played by the same player, the class does mean a lot. And comparing two different classes with two different players does not tell anything to someone who is actually picking up a class to play. For example our guilds new fury is already as good healer as he was when he played inquisitor. I am as good tank as a healer I used to be. I have no doubts that you couldn't be as good mage as you are a fury now. So comparing two people playing different toons gives no information about anything. On the other hand, objectively comparing classes without argument 'it depends on who is playing' does. Of course a person who has played a paladin to lvl 60 is better for XP group than someone who just bought his lvl 60 brawler. But had he bought lvl 60 paladin, the latter would be even worse.

11-28-2005, 06:24 PM	#119
stargazer5678 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 123	Timaarit wrote: quetzaqotl wrote: Hmm tim he's saying theres no "best" it all depends on the player behind the keyboard and how well geared the player is. Talking about the best is speculation its like comparing who's stronger the hulk or superman. Ah well some kids love to do that too I guess. And I am saying that the player only depends when you look at two different players playing the same class. But when you compare two different classes played by the same player, the class does mean a lot. And comparing two different classes with two different players does not tell anything to someone who is actually picking up a class to play. For example our guilds new fury is already as good healer as he was when he played inquisitor. I am as good tank as a healer I used to be. I have no doubts that you couldn't be as good mage as you are a fury now. So comparing two people playing different toons gives no information about anything. On the other hand, objectively comparing classes without argument 'it depends on who is playing' does. Of course a person who has played a paladin to lvl 60 is better for XP group than someone who just bought his lvl 60 brawler. But had he bought lvl 60 paladin, the latter would be even worse. All right. I grouped a lot with Monks and Bruisers. My opinion is that they can be very good tanks, but then again, you guessed it, it's SITUATIONAL. I totally agree that they are the best against single target, and I also totally agree that they are not the best against grouped mobs!. I actually talked about this issue with 3 or 4 Monks about couple of weeks ago. They all confirmed that it's a challenge to keep aggro when engaging a grouped target. Not that it's impossible, mind you, but challenging. So, in many cases healers have to switch between different group members healing them. Ideal XP group you say? Not always. This is my opinion, I don't claim anything. This game is so diverse I would be suprised if there was a perfect XP group for all cases.. It just depends on so many factors. Again, not saying templars shouldn't get more DPS, just expressing my opinion about "best XP group".

11-28-2005, 06:59 PM	#120
Big Da Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 201	Brigand + Templar