Summoner "Balancing" on test - Page 4

Magu · 03-10-2006, 03:33 PM

Taningard wrote:
Where exaclty is this massive problem?

in a decent xp grinding group: Wizards dish it out so quickly most of my spells are less than halfway though doing damage by the time the mobs is dead meanwhile DPS pet puts out some decent damage but its hard to burn enough mana to look like i actually did anything compared to my sorceror counterparts.

My *pet* can out-DPS most other classes (including many sorcerers) in the average XP group. Toss my damage in, and I beat them all 9 times out of 10.That is the problem.

Taninga · 03-10-2006, 05:34 PM

I was already taking that into account Magus. I'm not seeing '9 out of 10' its more like sometimes in from the encounters i'm seeing.

And as i said before and a few others have said: Where is this utility we get over higher dps classes?

I don't personally agree that merely having a pet gives us utility since its a fairly moot point in since in a standard xp group we use a dps pet and thats it 99% of the time.

Besides which lets not forget scouts get quite a bit of genuine utility (evacm track, poisons, safefall etc) so to move us down to swashy/brigand dps i think we would need something else added.

And the next person who try's to say that water breathing is in any way utility (or useful) needs to go and play something else.

Magu · 03-10-2006, 05:49 PM

Taningard wrote:
I was already taking that into account Magus. I'm not seeing '9 out of 10' its more like sometimes in from the encounters i'm seeing.

Are you using app4/adept1, or adept3/master1?

Taninga · 03-10-2006, 05:51 PM

master 1 igneous savant with ad3 aggravate and yeah i played since a couple of days after launch and yeah i know how to play a conjuror..

Daeloq · 03-10-2006, 08:06 PM

Taningard wrote:
I was already taking that into account Magus. I'm not seeing '9 out of 10' its more like sometimes in from the encounters i'm seeing.

And as i said before and a few others have said: Where is this utility we get over higher dps classes?

I don't personally agree that merely having a pet gives us utility since its a fairly moot point in since in a standard xp group we use a dps pet and thats it 99% of the time.

Besides which lets not forget scouts get quite a bit of genuine utility (evacm track, poisons, safefall etc) so to move us down to swashy/brigand dps i think we would need something else added.

And the next person who try's to say that water breathing is in any way utility (or useful) needs to go and play something else.

I see 10 out of 10 times grouped with the same level.

And flexibility? We can go fire in offensive for max dps, or air in defensive to off-tank in a pinch. We can switch up if we're up against mobs with particular resists. And don't forget it's not all about grouping - so we have the tank pet for soloing tough stuff, or air for easier mobs...

Ishbu · 03-10-2006, 08:10 PM

Griffinhart wrote:
I'm sure rangers felt the same way. Of course if it's only one or two classes that are doing too much damage, why does it make sense to increase all the other classes? Sure, increase Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers and assasins to be equal to the 2 summoner classes. But wait, Summoner's are supposed to be on par with Swashies, and Brigands. Time to raise those two classes. Of course now there is even a greater disparity between the highest dps and the lowest dps that what there should be now. Time to boost them! Wait, now content is even easier than before. Time to make the content tougher to compensate!
It just kicks off a series of adjustments that can easily get out of control. It's far easier, practical and far saner just to do a modest decrease in the DPS classes that are doing too much.

The reason we arent on part with brigands/swashbucklers is because they have 20x the utility we have. Take a look at their skill lines and notice the absolute insane debuffs they have. (FYI there is a cap on debuffs so a brigand doing his job with a druid and our heat/cold/magic debuff becoems null and voic) If they did the same dps and had all those skills it would be a crime against nature. That is why they are on the low end of the tier.

Mordith · 03-10-2006, 09:59 PM

Magus` wrote:
Taningard wrote:
Where exaclty is this massive problem?

in a decent xp grinding group: Wizards dish it out so quickly most of my spells are less than halfway though doing damage by the time the mobs is dead meanwhile DPS pet puts out some decent damage but its hard to burn enough mana to look like i actually did anything compared to my sorceror counterparts.
My *pet* can out-DPS most other classes (including many sorcerers) in the average XP group. Toss my damage in, and I beat them all 9 times out of 10.That is the problem.

Wow, once again you prove that you are the king of exaggeration! If you want people to take you seriously you really need to stop posting ridiculous nonsense like this.As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group.

Magiocracy · 03-11-2006, 02:27 AM

As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group.

In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact.

Mordith · 03-11-2006, 02:43 AM

Magiocracy wrote:
As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group.
In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact.

Again, that makes no sense. That's like saying if you are a wizzy nuke the mob if you want to do damage, if you are a healer then heal players when they are low on health . . . etc. We have pets and dots to do damage, that is not utility that is brought to a group that is different than any other class. Perhaps you should rethink exactly what "utility" is when discussing this particular subject. Nevermind,don't even bother responding. Why do I even bother with such myopic people such as yourself?

Message Edited by Mordith on 03-10-200601:43 PM

Daeloq · 03-11-2006, 03:01 AM

Mordith wrote:
Magiocracy wrote:
As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group.
In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact.
Again, that makes no sense. That's like saying if you are a wizzy nuke the mob if you want to do damage, if you are a healer then heal players when they are low on health . . . etc. We have pets and dots to do damage, that is not utility that is brought to a group that is different than any other class. Perhaps you should rethink exactly what "utility" is when discussing this particular subject. Nevermind,don't even bother responding. Why do I even bother with such myopic people such as yourself?
Message Edited by Mordith on 03-10-200601:43 PM

hi kettle... I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to the myopics either...

OK, I think the point of pet utility is that we can adjust our pets to the demands of a particular battle... OK, here's a concept, we don't always necessarily need to do max dps. (GASP)

- When we do need max dps, sure pull out the mage pet and put in offensive mode.

- Do you have one tank and a low level healer (like I did last night)? Use the scout pet in offensive mode, and switch to defensive to offtank when you get adds.

- No tank? Tank pet in defensive stance. I've MT'd many a group in my time.

- Not to mention all the same variables when soloing (yes, soloing is part of the game and part of the utility equation).

- Do you have a heat resistant mob? No problem, use the scout pet.

- Scout pet can't land a melee attack? Use mage.

There are a multitude of variables in EQ2 combat, and we are well equipped to deal with many of them.

edited - because I confuzzled myself

Message Edited by Daeloq on 03-10-200602:10 PM

Magiocracy · 03-11-2006, 03:06 AM

Mordith wrote:
Magiocracy wrote:
As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group.
In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact.
Again, that makes no sense. That's like saying if you are a wizzy nuke the mob if you want to do damage, if you are a healer then heal players when they are low on health . . . etc. We have pets and dots to do damage, that is not utility that is brought to a group that is different than any other class. Perhaps you should rethink exactly what "utility" is when discussing this particular subject. Nevermind,don't even bother responding. Why do I even bother with such myopic people such as yourself?
Message Edited by Mordith on 03-10-200601:43 PM

Fine, I'm done here, this is a dialogue of the deaf anyways. If you can't see the utility of being able to change pets based on the situation you're not myopic, you're either blind or stupid. Take your pick..

broda · 03-11-2006, 03:17 AM

IF you join a normal group/raid you will use your scout pet (for damage) or your fire pet (for damage). these are the groups that get most xp and get items. all classes need to be wanted in these groups. im sorry but i wouldnt tank for a group with my earth pet just cause it would be extremely painful for everyone involved and id rather spend an extra hour finding a real tank. yes i have tried that. claiming that switching pets is utility in groups is akin to claiming that a berserker can switch between spears for piercing damage and swords for slashing is utility. you could even claim that wizards have the same 'offtanking' utility by being able to root mobs (just like us). oh wait they have a mez too, i forgot.

Daeloq · 03-11-2006, 03:30 AM

brodach wrote:IF you join a normal group/raid you will use your scout pet (for damage) or your fire pet (for damage). these are the groups that get most xp and get items. all classes need to be wanted in these groups. im sorry but i wouldnt tank for a group with my earth pet just cause it would be extremely painful for everyone involved and id rather spend an extra hour finding a real tank. yes i have tried that. claiming that switching pets is utility in groups is akin to claiming that a berserker can switch between spears for piercing damage and swords for slashing is utility. you could even claim that wizards have the same 'offtanking' utility by being able to root mobs (just like us). oh wait they have a mez too, i forgot.

I would call that crowd control, not offtanking, but that's just semantics.

edited - because bold didn't show up too well

Message Edited by Daeloq on 03-10-200602:31 PM

DRdeathscyt · 03-11-2006, 04:00 AM

just how is changing our pet is the biggest utility we get as summoner?thats just someothing we do like many other class to adjust in different situation

infact its more a pain having to dismiss pet and spend 10 sec recasting antoher pet. or is it 12..cant remeber...anyway

for other class like wizard...if the mob in high resist in cold....then use ur heat base spells

for scouts if mob is immune to slash, change ur weapon to percising weapon...that dont require 10sec to cast

monrofayy · 03-11-2006, 08:40 AM

i wish they gave us the ablity to actually summon stuff again,, best we got atm is water stones [Removed for Content] i whould like to see [Removed for Content] pet weapons, items like + magic, mental resists,, inviso stone that could only be used while in same group ect don't know why there gotta nerf the dmg on pets adept air/fire don't last long against kos mobs and barely make it outta fight from a ^ up mob then theres the adds !! which i see happen a lot.. guess only time will tell when it go's live

Beldin_ · 03-11-2006, 09:23 AM

I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class SMILEY

Mordith · 03-11-2006, 10:05 AM

Beldin_ wrote:
I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class

Actually, I think you are kind of missing the point. Everyone here seems to be happy with conjurors. The fear of many is that a nerf will come along and basically ruin that.

Ickky · 03-11-2006, 04:48 PM

Magiocracy,

I really must stop reading your drivel about our pets being utility.

Our pets are the source of our damage for the most part, sure, we can swap em about. Other classes can also swap their spells, Warlock for instance, Disease,Poison.

Utility in my mind as well as a lot of others is something other than what we do for a living, ie, CoH, Manna Shard, heat debuff, heat proc, those are utility spells.

Pets are what Conjurors are all about since the days of EQ1

Sannayven · 03-11-2006, 07:55 PM

First of all. I said TELL ME WHY we should be Teir 2 damage. I got replies saying cuz SOE said so.

WOW, that was obvious. Now give me a good reason why we should be, not because mommy said so. I know what SOE said, I want real reasons.

Beldin_ wrote:
I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class

Ill tell you why.

Because I played a Magician/Conjuror in EQ1 for 5 years. I knew they were a powerful class. We did a ton of DPS, we summoned all kinds of awsome items. I loved my class.

We had awsome nukes and uber pets.

When I started EQ2 I expected the same, all I got was a nerfed EQ1 necro. I am happy those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty conjuror days are gone. We were seriously at the bottom with out horrid DoTs and weak pets.

Im happy where we are now, and I enjoy playing the game. In fact I left EQ1 back in March last year. I came back to the new an improved Conjuror class and have been hooked ever since. SMILEY

TangBaBa · 03-12-2006, 05:13 AM

People, stop the whining - this is already starting to sound like the ranger forums.

Actually - some of you guys sound EXACTLY like rangers, come to think of it. So, to conserve bandwidth, for every person that wants to whine that conjies have no utility, that no one is going to want to group/raid with a conjy if a conjy isn't a DPS god, or any likeminded slobbering drivel, why don't you just save space here and post a link to the ranger forums instead.

If you guys want the DPS so freakin' much, roll a sorcerer.

"But wait, I like the pet. Can't I just be top DPS and still have the pet?"

No, you can't. Get over it, nancy.

Ishbu · 03-12-2006, 05:44 AM

TangBaBa wrote:
People, stop the whining - this is already starting to sound like the ranger forums.
Actually - some of you guys sound EXACTLY like rangers, come to think of it. So, to conserve bandwidth, for every person that wants to whine that conjies have no utility, that no one is going to want to group/raid with a conjy if a conjy isn't a DPS god, or any likeminded slobbering drivel, why don't you just save space here and post a link to the ranger forums instead.
If you guys want the DPS so freakin' much, roll a sorcerer.
"But wait, I like the pet. Can't I just be top DPS and still have the pet?"
No, you can't. Get over it, nancy.

You sound like an ignorant fool. I played and raided as a conjuror before DoF came out, there were no real good uses for us because our dps wasnt great and we had almost no utility and back then our buffs were BETTER. If they drop conjurors down a significant amount history will be repeating itself and not for the better.

Beldin_ · 03-12-2006, 07:59 AM

Mordith wrote:
Beldin_ wrote:
I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class
Actually, I think you are kind of missing the point. Everyone here seems to be happy with conjurors. The fear of many is that a nerf will come along and basically ruin that.

I don't miss the point .. everyone would be happy to have a char that could tank like a guardian post LU#13 and deal damage like a Ranger between LU#13 and LU#20 .. however you can't have a char like that on the long run .. if a class is that good it will be nerfed. So the thing is .. why do you chose Conjurer over Wizard if you just want to be pure maximum DPS and if you think that you don't need a tank pet and things like that for other reasons.

broda · 03-12-2006, 02:02 PM

quote: You sound like an ignorant fool.i agree with this statement. btw also applied to the post directly above this

Message Edited by brodach on 03-12-200601:03 AM

TangBaBa · 03-13-2006, 12:50 AM

Ishboozor wrote:
TangBaBa wrote:
People, stop the whining - this is already starting to sound like the ranger forums.
Actually - some of you guys sound EXACTLY like rangers, come to think of it. So, to conserve bandwidth, for every person that wants to whine that conjies have no utility, that no one is going to want to group/raid with a conjy if a conjy isn't a DPS god, or any likeminded slobbering drivel, why don't you just save space here and post a link to the ranger forums instead.
If you guys want the DPS so freakin' much, roll a sorcerer.
"But wait, I like the pet. Can't I just be top DPS and still have the pet?"
No, you can't. Get over it, nancy.
You sound like an ignorant fool. I played and raided as a conjuror before DoF came out, there were no real good uses for us because our dps wasnt great and we had almost no utility and back then our buffs were BETTER. If they drop conjurors down a significant amount history will be repeating itself and not for the better.

Cry more for me.

TangBaBa · 03-13-2006, 03:21 AM

Sannayven wrote:
First of all. I said TELL ME WHY we should be Teir 2 damage. I got replies saying cuz SOE said so.
WOW, that was obvious. Now give me a good reason why we should be, not because mommy said so. I know what SOE said, I want real reasons.

Ill tell you why.
Because I played a Magician/Conjuror in EQ1 for 5 years. I knew they were a powerful class. We did a ton of DPS, we summoned all kinds of awsome items. I loved my class.
We had awsome nukes and uber pets.
When I started EQ2 I expected the same, all I got was a nerfed EQ1 necro. I am happy those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty conjuror days are gone. We were seriously at the bottom with out horrid DoTs and weak pets.
Im happy where we are now, and I enjoy playing the game. In fact I left EQ1 back in March last year. I came back to the new an improved Conjuror class and have been hooked ever since.

Why should we be Tier 2? Because we have pets that make things relatively safe for us. It's a tradeoff intended to prevent the rise of a truly uber character. If you like the safety of a pet, then you give up on DPS figures. It's essentially the same logic that is applied to tanks - they wear heavy armor and have massive hitpoints, but they don't do outstanding DPS.

Sorcerers on the other hand sacrifice hitpoints and mitigation for the nukes.Not only that - but sorcerers have to worry about timing (and/or spamming) their nukes, using de-aggros, etc., to get their DPS numbers.

What do we need to do? Click "Pet Attack," and that's pretty much it. If you can time AEs, then you'll need to recall your pet every once in a while, and then send them back.

Message Edited by TangBaBa on 03-12-200602:30 PM

Yeoux · 03-13-2006, 03:30 AM

The TIER DPS should be a nice idea if and only if they followed somes rules like:

T1: offer DPS and only DPS, make them huge but take them everything else they offer to group like evac/buff/invis etc... Give them self only buff, self only invis and let them deal DPS

T2: offer less DPS than T1 but they offer some utility like good group buff, single invis, evac etc...

T3: offer much less DPS than T1 and less than T2 but they have somme really good utility like mana regen, hp regent group buff, group invis, mezz, debuffing etc....

Following that kind of rules should make everyones happy.

Sannayven · 03-13-2006, 06:51 AM

Yeoux wrote:
The TIER DPS should be a nice idea if and only if they followed somes rules like:

T1: offer DPS and only DPS, make them huge but take them everything else they offer to group like evac/buff/invis etc... Give them self only buff, self only invis and let them deal DPS

T2: offer less DPS than T1 but they offer some utility like good group buff, single invis, evac etc...

T3: offer much less DPS than T1 and less than T2 but they have somme really good utility like mana regen, hp regent group buff, group invis, mezz, debuffing etc....

Following that kind of rules should make everyones happy.

I agree. They should just say, You are Teir 1, because we say so, you will do teir 2 cuz we say so.

There should be good reason why they are choosing these teirs.

Tro · 03-13-2006, 05:24 PM

I think some folks may have "Utility" and "Diversity" mixed up. To me, as "Summoners" we summon minions to do our bidding.. That is NOT our utility.. that is our Class defining ability period. Tanks Take the damage and keep mobs on them (Class defining), healers heal (Again Class defining).

The ability for us summoners to "Adjust" our pets to a given situation however, is something called "Diversity". We are a very diverse class with good utility. We can adjust to many different situations..

Just my 2cp..

Ickky · 03-13-2006, 06:31 PM

I think some folks may have "Utility" and "Diversity" mixed up.

To me, as "Summoners" we summon minions to do our bidding.. That is NOT our utility.. that is our Class defining ability period. Tanks Take the damage and keep mobs on them (Class defining), healers heal (Again Class defining).

The ability for us summoners to "Adjust" our pets to a given situation however, is something called "Diversity". We are a very diverse class with good utility. We can adjust to many different situations..

Very well put Trook.

Ever since this Tier System was published it has caused nothing but arguments, ill feeling and class envy. In every MMORPG I have played one class or another has been able to do something better than another class and has been accepted by the majority of players.

In DAOC I played a Wizard, Monk, and a Mezzer, think that was a Sorceror cant remember now. Now each of those had their good and bad points. A Wizard nukeing for major damage was an accepted fact and noone questioned this. A monk's agility,healing and evasion skills were also accepted. A mezzers skills were also accepted and not questioned. Some could solo better than others, this was accepted and if that is what you wanted to do u rolled a suitable class, this was accepted.

This game tries to make all opportunites open to all classes to some degree and fails miserably, this causes more arguments than I have seen in any MMORPG.

We now have pets/familiars springing from every orifice I care to look at, everyman and his dog has a pet of some description, whether they actually do something is another thing. Conjurors conjur beings/items from a different plane, always has been in every MMORPG I have played, not so in EQ2, everyone seems to get a " Santa's little helper" , totally absurd and totally breaks the mould for the Conjuror class.

If you play your Conjuror well you will not only be trying to nuke/send pet for the damage but also, stifle,stun and slow the MOB.

I very rarely pull aggro from the tank with my pet because I wait a few seconds before sending it in, unlees of course I know the mob can be taken easily. Yes, I will get aggro if if I cast BP and Vestment straight off, I sometimes do it for fun. I also take note of whether the tank can hold the aggro, if he/she cant I dont go all out. Good tanks can and do hold the aggro, and a little sensible play on the Conjurors behalf will see a much better return for your time and effort.

Griffinhart · 03-13-2006, 09:36 PM

Ickky wrote:
Magiocracy,
I really must stop reading your drivel about our pets being utility.
Our pets are the source of our damage for the most part, sure, we can swap em about. Other classes can also swap their spells, Warlock for instance, Disease,Poison.

Pretty big difference between switching out a poison nuke for a disease nuke vs a dps pet for a tank pet.

For a warlock, it doesn't allow them to do anything different than do DPS. And in the case of Warlocks and Wizards(cold/fire). BOTH types must be used to achieve their damage because of recast timers. If a wizard finds a mob that is resistant to cold or fire(or poison/disease for warlocks) Their DPS drops significantly because they rely on both types. It's not like they change nuke styles to accomplish a different task.

For a pet class, You can use one pet for DPS and another to taunt and tank mobs. Two entirely different functions made possible by pets.

That in itself is utility. Pet's are utilitarian by nature due to their flexability.

03-10-2006, 03:33 PM	#91
Magu Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,332	Taningard wrote: Where exaclty is this massive problem? in a decent xp grinding group: Wizards dish it out so quickly most of my spells are less than halfway though doing damage by the time the mobs is dead meanwhile DPS pet puts out some decent damage but its hard to burn enough mana to look like i actually did anything compared to my sorceror counterparts. My pet can out-DPS most other classes (including many sorcerers) in the average XP group. Toss my damage in, and I beat them all 9 times out of 10.That is the problem.

03-10-2006, 05:49 PM	#93
Magu Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,332	Taningard wrote: I was already taking that into account Magus. I'm not seeing '9 out of 10' its more like sometimes in from the encounters i'm seeing. Are you using app4/adept1, or adept3/master1?

03-10-2006, 08:06 PM	#95
Daeloq Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Taningard wrote: I was already taking that into account Magus. I'm not seeing '9 out of 10' its more like sometimes in from the encounters i'm seeing. And as i said before and a few others have said: Where is this utility we get over higher dps classes? I don't personally agree that merely having a pet gives us utility since its a fairly moot point in since in a standard xp group we use a dps pet and thats it 99% of the time. Besides which lets not forget scouts get quite a bit of genuine utility (evacm track, poisons, safefall etc) so to move us down to swashy/brigand dps i think we would need something else added. And the next person who try's to say that water breathing is in any way utility (or useful) needs to go and play something else. I see 10 out of 10 times grouped with the same level. And flexibility? We can go fire in offensive for max dps, or air in defensive to off-tank in a pinch. We can switch up if we're up against mobs with particular resists. And don't forget it's not all about grouping - so we have the tank pet for soloing tough stuff, or air for easier mobs...

03-10-2006, 08:10 PM	#96
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	Griffinhart wrote: I'm sure rangers felt the same way. Of course if it's only one or two classes that are doing too much damage, why does it make sense to increase all the other classes? Sure, increase Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers and assasins to be equal to the 2 summoner classes. But wait, Summoner's are supposed to be on par with Swashies, and Brigands. Time to raise those two classes. Of course now there is even a greater disparity between the highest dps and the lowest dps that what there should be now. Time to boost them! Wait, now content is even easier than before. Time to make the content tougher to compensate! It just kicks off a series of adjustments that can easily get out of control. It's far easier, practical and far saner just to do a modest decrease in the DPS classes that are doing too much. The reason we arent on part with brigands/swashbucklers is because they have 20x the utility we have. Take a look at their skill lines and notice the absolute insane debuffs they have. (FYI there is a cap on debuffs so a brigand doing his job with a druid and our heat/cold/magic debuff becoems null and voic) If they did the same dps and had all those skills it would be a crime against nature. That is why they are on the low end of the tier. __________________ Ishbu!

03-10-2006, 09:59 PM	#97
Mordith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 334	Magus` wrote: Taningard wrote: Where exaclty is this massive problem? in a decent xp grinding group: Wizards dish it out so quickly most of my spells are less than halfway though doing damage by the time the mobs is dead meanwhile DPS pet puts out some decent damage but its hard to burn enough mana to look like i actually did anything compared to my sorceror counterparts. *My pet* can out-DPS most other classes (including many sorcerers) in the average XP group**. Toss my damage in, and I beat them all 9 times out of 10.That is the problem. Wow, once again you prove that you are the king of exaggeration! If you want people to take you seriously you really need to stop posting ridiculous nonsense like this.As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group.

03-10-2006, 05:34 PM	#92
Taninga Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	I was already taking that into account Magus. I'm not seeing '9 out of 10' its more like sometimes in from the encounters i'm seeing. And as i said before and a few others have said: Where is this utility we get over higher dps classes? I don't personally agree that merely having a pet gives us utility since its a fairly moot point in since in a standard xp group we use a dps pet and thats it 99% of the time. Besides which lets not forget scouts get quite a bit of genuine utility (evacm track, poisons, safefall etc) so to move us down to swashy/brigand dps i think we would need something else added. And the next person who try's to say that water breathing is in any way utility (or useful) needs to go and play something else.

03-10-2006, 05:51 PM	#94
Taninga Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	master 1 igneous savant with ad3 aggravate and yeah i played since a couple of days after launch and yeah i know how to play a conjuror..

03-11-2006, 02:27 AM	#98
Magiocracy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group. In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact. __________________

03-11-2006, 02:43 AM	#99
Mordith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 334	Magiocracy wrote: As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group. In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact. Again, that makes no sense. That's like saying if you are a wizzy nuke the mob if you want to do damage, if you are a healer then heal players when they are low on health . . . etc. We have pets and dots to do damage, that is not utility that is brought to a group that is different than any other class. Perhaps you should rethink exactly what "utility" is when discussing this particular subject. Nevermind,don't even bother responding. Why do I even bother with such myopic people such as yourself? Message Edited by Mordith on 03-10-200601:43 PM

03-11-2006, 03:01 AM	#100
Daeloq Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Mordith wrote: Magiocracy wrote: As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group. In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact. Again, that makes no sense. That's like saying if you are a wizzy nuke the mob if you want to do damage, if you are a healer then heal players when they are low on health . . . etc. We have pets and dots to do damage, that is not utility that is brought to a group that is different than any other class. Perhaps you should rethink exactly what "utility" is when discussing this particular subject. Nevermind,don't even bother responding. Why do I even bother with such myopic people such as yourself? Message Edited by Mordith on 03-10-200601:43 PM hi kettle... I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to the myopics either... OK, I think the point of pet utility is that we can adjust our pets to the demands of a particular battle... OK, here's a concept, we don't always necessarily need to do max dps. (GASP) - When we do need max dps, sure pull out the mage pet and put in offensive mode. - Do you have one tank and a low level healer (like I did last night)? Use the scout pet in offensive mode, and switch to defensive to offtank when you get adds. - No tank? Tank pet in defensive stance. I've MT'd many a group in my time. - Not to mention all the same variables when soloing (yes, soloing is part of the game and part of the utility equation). - Do you have a heat resistant mob? No problem, use the scout pet. - Scout pet can't land a melee attack? Use mage. There are a multitude of variables in EQ2 combat, and we are well equipped to deal with many of them. edited - because I confuzzled myself Message Edited by Daeloq on 03-10-200602:10 PM

03-11-2006, 03:06 AM	#101
Magiocracy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Mordith wrote: Magiocracy wrote: As to our pets being "utility." That is just plain ignorant. We are not talking about individual utility since that would mean that every single spell that every class has is in fact utility. The question is what unique utility do summoners bring to a group. In a group that has no tank - whip out your earth pet, need an offtank for the group - use your air pet in defensive mode, want to slice through easy mobs - use your air pet in offensive mode, want max dps - use fire pet. Being able to adjust the role you and your pet play in a group IS unique utility as thanks to your pets Summoners are better than anyone else in adjusting their role in a group as required. But as I've said before some Summoners just seem blind to this obvious fact. Again, that makes no sense. That's like saying if you are a wizzy nuke the mob if you want to do damage, if you are a healer then heal players when they are low on health . . . etc. We have pets and dots to do damage, that is not utility that is brought to a group that is different than any other class. Perhaps you should rethink exactly what "utility" is when discussing this particular subject. Nevermind,don't even bother responding. Why do I even bother with such myopic people such as yourself? Message Edited by Mordith on 03-10-200601:43 PM Fine, I'm done here, this is a dialogue of the deaf anyways. If you can't see the utility of being able to change pets based on the situation you're not myopic, you're either blind or stupid. Take your pick.. __________________

03-11-2006, 03:17 AM	#102
broda General Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 35	IF you join a normal group/raid you will use your scout pet (for damage) or your fire pet (for damage). these are the groups that get most xp and get items. all classes need to be wanted in these groups. im sorry but i wouldnt tank for a group with my earth pet just cause it would be extremely painful for everyone involved and id rather spend an extra hour finding a real tank. yes i have tried that. claiming that switching pets is utility in groups is akin to claiming that a berserker can switch between spears for piercing damage and swords for slashing is utility. you could even claim that wizards have the same 'offtanking' utility by being able to root mobs (just like us). oh wait they have a mez too, i forgot.

03-11-2006, 03:30 AM	#103
Daeloq Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	brodach wrote:IF you join a normal group/raid you will use your scout pet (for damage) or your fire pet (for damage). these are the groups that get most xp and get items. all classes need to be wanted in these groups. im sorry but i wouldnt tank for a group with my earth pet just cause it would be extremely painful for everyone involved and id rather spend an extra hour finding a real tank. yes i have tried that. claiming that switching pets is utility in groups is akin to claiming that a berserker can switch between spears for piercing damage and swords for slashing is utility. you could even claim that wizards have the same 'offtanking' utility by being able to root mobs (just like us). oh wait they have a mez too, i forgot. I would call that crowd control, not offtanking, but that's just semantics. edited - because bold didn't show up too well Message Edited by Daeloq on 03-10-200602:31 PM

03-11-2006, 04:00 AM	#104
DRdeathscyt General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	just how is changing our pet is the biggest utility we get as summoner?thats just someothing we do like many other class to adjust in different situation infact its more a pain having to dismiss pet and spend 10 sec recasting antoher pet. or is it 12..cant remeber...anyway for other class like wizard...if the mob in high resist in cold....then use ur heat base spells for scouts if mob is immune to slash, change ur weapon to percising weapon...that dont require 10sec to cast

03-11-2006, 08:40 AM	#105
monrofayy Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 224	i wish they gave us the ablity to actually summon stuff again,, best we got atm is water stones [Removed for Content] i whould like to see [Removed for Content] pet weapons, items like + magic, mental resists,, inviso stone that could only be used while in same group ect don't know why there gotta nerf the dmg on pets adept air/fire don't last long against kos mobs and barely make it outta fight from a ^ up mob then theres the adds !! which i see happen a lot.. guess only time will tell when it go's live

03-11-2006, 09:23 AM	#106
Beldin_ Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,343	I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class __________________

03-11-2006, 10:05 AM	#107
Mordith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 334	Beldin_ wrote: I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class Actually, I think you are kind of missing the point. Everyone here seems to be happy with conjurors. The fear of many is that a nerf will come along and basically ruin that.

03-11-2006, 04:48 PM	#108
Ickky Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 60	Magiocracy, I really must stop reading your drivel about our pets being utility. Our pets are the source of our damage for the most part, sure, we can swap em about. Other classes can also swap their spells, Warlock for instance, Disease,Poison. Utility in my mind as well as a lot of others is something other than what we do for a living, ie, CoH, Manna Shard, heat debuff, heat proc, those are utility spells. Pets are what Conjurors are all about since the days of EQ1

03-11-2006, 07:55 PM	#109
Sannayven Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 43	First of all. I said TELL ME WHY we should be Teir 2 damage. I got replies saying cuz SOE said so. WOW, that was obvious. Now give me a good reason why we should be, not because mommy said so. I know what SOE said, I want real reasons. Beldin_ wrote: I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class Ill tell you why. Because I played a Magician/Conjuror in EQ1 for 5 years. I knew they were a powerful class. We did a ton of DPS, we summoned all kinds of awsome items. I loved my class. We had awsome nukes and uber pets. When I started EQ2 I expected the same, all I got was a nerfed EQ1 necro. I am happy those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty conjuror days are gone. We were seriously at the bottom with out horrid DoTs and weak pets. Im happy where we are now, and I enjoy playing the game. In fact I left EQ1 back in March last year. I came back to the new an improved Conjuror class and have been hooked ever since. __________________

03-12-2006, 05:13 AM	#110
TangBaBa Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	People, stop the whining - this is already starting to sound like the ranger forums. Actually - some of you guys sound EXACTLY like rangers, come to think of it. So, to conserve bandwidth, for every person that wants to whine that conjies have no utility, that no one is going to want to group/raid with a conjy if a conjy isn't a DPS god, or any likeminded slobbering drivel, why don't you just save space here and post a link to the ranger forums instead. If you guys want the DPS so freakin' much, roll a sorcerer. "But wait, I like the pet. Can't I just be top DPS and still have the pet?" No, you can't. Get over it, nancy. __________________ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Level 70 Delusionist, IRL

03-12-2006, 05:44 AM	#111
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	TangBaBa wrote: People, stop the whining - this is already starting to sound like the ranger forums. Actually - some of you guys sound EXACTLY like rangers, come to think of it. So, to conserve bandwidth, for every person that wants to whine that conjies have no utility, that no one is going to want to group/raid with a conjy if a conjy isn't a DPS god, or any likeminded slobbering drivel, why don't you just save space here and post a link to the ranger forums instead. If you guys want the DPS so freakin' much, roll a sorcerer. "But wait, I like the pet. Can't I just be top DPS and still have the pet?" No, you can't. Get over it, nancy. You sound like an ignorant fool. I played and raided as a conjuror before DoF came out, there were no real good uses for us because our dps wasnt great and we had almost no utility and back then our buffs were BETTER. If they drop conjurors down a significant amount history will be repeating itself and not for the better. __________________ Ishbu!

03-12-2006, 07:59 AM	#112
Beldin_ Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,343	Mordith wrote: Beldin_ wrote: I really wonder why some people here choosed conjurer and not wizard. The main reason for me is that i can solo real good and don't have to fear that a root break or i get some adds .. and also the flexibility that i can play in small groups with no tank or do some some DPS in a full group, but never just to be pure DPS. Everybody who really says he doesn't enjoy these features in my opinion has simply choosen the false class Actually, I think you are kind of missing the point. Everyone here seems to be happy with conjurors. The fear of many is that a nerf will come along and basically ruin that. I don't miss the point .. everyone would be happy to have a char that could tank like a guardian post LU#13 and deal damage like a Ranger between LU#13 and LU#20 .. however you can't have a char like that on the long run .. if a class is that good it will be nerfed. So the thing is .. why do you chose Conjurer over Wizard if you just want to be pure maximum DPS and if you think that you don't need a tank pet and things like that for other reasons. __________________

03-12-2006, 02:02 PM	#113
broda General Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 35	quote: You sound like an ignorant fool.i agree with this statement. btw also applied to the post directly above this Message Edited by brodach on 03-12-200601:03 AM

03-13-2006, 12:50 AM	#114
TangBaBa Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	Ishboozor wrote: TangBaBa wrote: People, stop the whining - this is already starting to sound like the ranger forums. Actually - some of you guys sound EXACTLY like rangers, come to think of it. So, to conserve bandwidth, for every person that wants to whine that conjies have no utility, that no one is going to want to group/raid with a conjy if a conjy isn't a DPS god, or any likeminded slobbering drivel, why don't you just save space here and post a link to the ranger forums instead. If you guys want the DPS so freakin' much, roll a sorcerer. "But wait, I like the pet. Can't I just be top DPS and still have the pet?" No, you can't. Get over it, nancy. You sound like an ignorant fool. I played and raided as a conjuror before DoF came out, there were no real good uses for us because our dps wasnt great and we had almost no utility and back then our buffs were BETTER. If they drop conjurors down a significant amount history will be repeating itself and not for the better. Cry more for me. __________________ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Level 70 Delusionist, IRL

03-13-2006, 03:21 AM	#115
TangBaBa Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	Sannayven wrote: First of all. I said TELL ME WHY we should be Teir 2 damage. I got replies saying cuz SOE said so. WOW, that was obvious. Now give me a good reason why we should be, not because mommy said so. I know what SOE said, I want real reasons. Ill tell you why. Because I played a Magician/Conjuror in EQ1 for 5 years. I knew they were a powerful class. We did a ton of DPS, we summoned all kinds of awsome items. I loved my class. We had awsome nukes and uber pets. When I started EQ2 I expected the same, all I got was a nerfed EQ1 necro. I am happy those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty conjuror days are gone. We were seriously at the bottom with out horrid DoTs and weak pets. Im happy where we are now, and I enjoy playing the game. In fact I left EQ1 back in March last year. I came back to the new an improved Conjuror class and have been hooked ever since. Why should we be Tier 2? Because we have pets that make things relatively safe for us. It's a tradeoff intended to prevent the rise of a truly uber character. If you like the safety of a pet, then you give up on DPS figures. It's essentially the same logic that is applied to tanks - they wear heavy armor and have massive hitpoints, but they don't do outstanding DPS. Sorcerers on the other hand sacrifice hitpoints and mitigation for the nukes.Not only that - but sorcerers have to worry about timing (and/or spamming) their nukes, using de-aggros, etc., to get their DPS numbers. What do we need to do? Click "Pet Attack," and that's pretty much it. If you can time AEs, then you'll need to recall your pet every once in a while, and then send them back. Message Edited by TangBaBa on 03-12-200602:30 PM __________________ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Level 70 Delusionist, IRL

03-13-2006, 03:30 AM	#116
Yeoux Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	The TIER DPS should be a nice idea if and only if they followed somes rules like: T1: offer DPS and only DPS, make them huge but take them everything else they offer to group like evac/buff/invis etc... Give them self only buff, self only invis and let them deal DPS T2: offer less DPS than T1 but they offer some utility like good group buff, single invis, evac etc... T3: offer much less DPS than T1 and less than T2 but they have somme really good utility like mana regen, hp regent group buff, group invis, mezz, debuffing etc.... Following that kind of rules should make everyones happy. __________________

03-13-2006, 06:51 AM	#117
Sannayven Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 43	Yeoux wrote: The TIER DPS should be a nice idea if and only if they followed somes rules like: T1: offer DPS and only DPS, make them huge but take them everything else they offer to group like evac/buff/invis etc... Give them self only buff, self only invis and let them deal DPS T2: offer less DPS than T1 but they offer some utility like good group buff, single invis, evac etc... T3: offer much less DPS than T1 and less than T2 but they have somme really good utility like mana regen, hp regent group buff, group invis, mezz, debuffing etc.... Following that kind of rules should make everyones happy. I agree. They should just say, You are Teir 1, because we say so, you will do teir 2 cuz we say so. There should be good reason why they are choosing these teirs. __________________

03-13-2006, 05:24 PM	#118
Tro General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 698	I think some folks may have "Utility" and "Diversity" mixed up. To me, as "Summoners" we summon minions to do our bidding.. That is NOT our utility.. that is our Class defining ability period. Tanks Take the damage and keep mobs on them (Class defining), healers heal (Again Class defining). The ability for us summoners to "Adjust" our pets to a given situation however, is something called "Diversity". We are a very diverse class with good utility. We can adjust to many different situations.. Just my 2cp..

03-13-2006, 06:31 PM	#119
Ickky Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 60	I think some folks may have "Utility" and "Diversity" mixed up. To me, as "Summoners" we summon minions to do our bidding.. That is NOT our utility.. that is our Class defining ability period. Tanks Take the damage and keep mobs on them (Class defining), healers heal (Again Class defining). The ability for us summoners to "Adjust" our pets to a given situation however, is something called "Diversity". We are a very diverse class with good utility. We can adjust to many different situations.. Very well put Trook. Ever since this Tier System was published it has caused nothing but arguments, ill feeling and class envy. In every MMORPG I have played one class or another has been able to do something better than another class and has been accepted by the majority of players. In DAOC I played a Wizard, Monk, and a Mezzer, think that was a Sorceror cant remember now. Now each of those had their good and bad points. A Wizard nukeing for major damage was an accepted fact and noone questioned this. A monk's agility,healing and evasion skills were also accepted. A mezzers skills were also accepted and not questioned. Some could solo better than others, this was accepted and if that is what you wanted to do u rolled a suitable class, this was accepted. This game tries to make all opportunites open to all classes to some degree and fails miserably, this causes more arguments than I have seen in any MMORPG. We now have pets/familiars springing from every orifice I care to look at, everyman and his dog has a pet of some description, whether they actually do something is another thing. Conjurors conjur beings/items from a different plane, always has been in every MMORPG I have played, not so in EQ2, everyone seems to get a " Santa's little helper" , totally absurd and totally breaks the mould for the Conjuror class. If you play your Conjuror well you will not only be trying to nuke/send pet for the damage but also, stifle,stun and slow the MOB. I very rarely pull aggro from the tank with my pet because I wait a few seconds before sending it in, unlees of course I know the mob can be taken easily. Yes, I will get aggro if if I cast BP and Vestment straight off, I sometimes do it for fun. I also take note of whether the tank can hold the aggro, if he/she cant I dont go all out. Good tanks can and do hold the aggro, and a little sensible play on the Conjurors behalf will see a much better return for your time and effort.

03-13-2006, 09:36 PM	#120
Griffinhart Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 305	Ickky wrote: Magiocracy, I really must stop reading your drivel about our pets being utility. Our pets are the source of our damage for the most part, sure, we can swap em about. Other classes can also swap their spells, Warlock for instance, Disease,Poison. Pretty big difference between switching out a poison nuke for a disease nuke vs a dps pet for a tank pet. For a warlock, it doesn't allow them to do anything different than do DPS. And in the case of Warlocks and Wizards(cold/fire). BOTH types must be used to achieve their damage because of recast timers. If a wizard finds a mob that is resistant to cold or fire(or poison/disease for warlocks) Their DPS drops significantly because they rely on both types. It's not like they change nuke styles to accomplish a different task. For a pet class, You can use one pet for DPS and another to taunt and tank mobs. Two entirely different functions made possible by pets. That in itself is utility. Pet's are utilitarian by nature due to their flexability. __________________