Why I hate my conjuror.

[Vonyor]

Ok so I am a bit [Removed for Content] off atm. I just wrote out a huge post and after hitting submit got some error and lost everything I typed. So here I go again. I am getting to the point that if I find one more thing that makes me think I am playing the weakest class there is, then I am going to quit. Becuase I do not want to, or feel I should have to restart from the problems that need to by fixed. (Now doing this is a totally random order becuase I am frustrated) __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ What is up with the our l33t pet? The purple people eater or whatever it is. The pet with the huge buck teeth. It looks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], literally. How can you spark my interest in even having a pet anymore? Perhaps at level 51 when the expansion comes out. You can either give us a new spell, or put in some new class related abilities to choose from, one of which for conjurors being a new pet. And please a new pet at level 60 as well. I noticed in pre-release screenshots there were some large pets, I understand why they were taken out but perhaps an adaptive pet would offer a solution to implementing them again. This adaptive pet being our new l33t pet. After zoning into an outdoor zone, it increases in size and small again when zoning indoors. Other adaptations could be changes in it's resists depending on the zone you are in. Why do I want larger pets? Becuase why do elemetals even become smaller when they are summoned? I understand why you can't have giant size pets, but why can't they at least be troll size or something. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ I remember when this splitpaw intro began. I saw some class (I forget which) run up and fight 3 gnolls. All of which were 2 levels higher then the individual. I remember making a comment about such and such class needing to be nerfed. No class should be able to solo 3 mobs higher level then themselves, so easily. Someone replied, every class can if they know what they are doing. (The guy wasn't even using some special tactic, he was fighting melee and healing himself). Which brings me to my next point. Why is it conjurors stand absolutely no chance at taking on group mobs? The group can be grey, but unless it is 10 levels lower then me grey, It is still absurdly too possible to lose. I am aware you can send your pets from a distance and it actually take the aggro of the whole group but that is presuming I am outdoors. And that tactic only works for about 30 seconds anyway becuase again, unless they are grey. I am going to need to run up there and heal the pet and help with the attack. And healing and nuking are two of the best ways for a caster to get aggroed. Conjurors  AND necros need to take way less aggro considering we are using the weakest healing spells (and only on our pets) and the weakest nukes. Also, make it so pets take group aggro from any distance. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ I don't think it makes any sense that we have health/mana type regen spells. Take the shard of essence for example. Niether the casters in my group nor me want to bother with constantly equiping a shard and using it. Not to mention that summoning shards for multiple people takes more mana then using one will even replenish. The spell is totally useless and goes completely unused. For that reason I think the spell should not use any health. Essence shift is fine, but as for Instant Vim, I would rather you double the timer rather then it take my health. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ In relation to the shard of essense, why is it our summonables are useless and that we get so few? We can't even summon food let you allow other classes to? That needs to change. Perhaps we can summon an item that just as the weakest food, lasts 30 minutes, and offers the replenishment that both food and water would. An effect would obviously be stackable with food and water. It would be a higher level spell. And you could even make it so that the shard or whatever items gives  the benefit doesn't decay untill the effect is over (forcing that inventory slot unusable for the time). __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ Has anyone else ever been in a group that expects you to iniate HOs becuase they think you have the least to do? I am sorry but between healing my pet, casting buffs, constantly telling the pet what to attack, trying to cast a ward on the unconscious caster or the healer who doesn't have anyone else to help them. From making sure tank didn't switch targets and pet is attacking mezed mob or from constantly casting mana regen spells becuase doing the best I can do is using way too much mana. I would think I am a little more busy then say the wizard who is only nuking every other mob as he waits for his main spell to recharge. What could help me from spending every second of combat on such a tedious cycle? Well I wouldn't mind more control of my own pet to start. Perhaps new control commands. A /pet assist soandso (soandso being the main tank) I wouldn't have to worry about when the tank switches targets or fights while having another player or coprse targetted; yet wouldn't mean I don't have to deal with pet anymore, becuase I will of coarse need to have the pet back off when the tank goes to pull and then have it assist again just as I would have to send it to attack again. Then a command such as /pet guard soandso (soandso in this case being a caster/cleric) Would allow me to help a caster that has gotten aggro from something yet is still just nuking the primary target or hasn't even noticed he/she is being attacked. It would also be useful becuase when a group of mobs move through us in combat, it's sometimes difficult to tell which mob is attacking the quickly dying wizard/cleric. It would be a change that necros could also benefit from. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ Caster pets are way too useless. Give them even less health for all I care, but they need to do more damage. Let them use more mana, then give us a mana regen buff we can cast on them __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ And so there is no misunderstanding. I do not think our class would in anyway be too powerful if even all these changes were made. I am not trying to be one of those people that thinks hey my class should be able to do this or that just becuase it would be cool or make me more powerful. I only want these changes made becuase I honestly think conjurors are unfairly weak. Also, I know I had more in my first post that as I mentioned at the top it go through. So after I play again I will probably add onto this.

[Xalmat]

My conjuror has no problems whatsoever soloing the 4-gnoll yellow encounters in Splitpaw. I'm level 50, the gnolls are level 51.If conjurors aren't your thing, go play some other class. We aren't for everyone.

[Vonyor]

First of all, if you knew anything about the game you would realize anything with more then 3 mobs such as the the number from my example, is significally less likely to be a heoric encounter, not to mention to be much weaker mobs. Second of all, way to explain how you accomplished this in a believable and helpful fashion. Perhaps posting isn't something everyone should do.

[BigRedWo]

I love my conjurer.  I'm sorry you don't like your's, but maybe you are expecting too much from the class.  Have you tried playing other classes yet?  There has to be one that is catered more towards your play style.  I've only played Mystic and Conjurer, so I can't tell you which class to recommend.

[Vonyor]

The only other classes that interest me at all are wizard and coercer. Though neither enough to restart.

[Nachturn]

I think you make some good points.  One solution would be to make our fire pet more like the Fire Imps in City of Heroes.  For instance, casting Igneous Apprentice could result in 3-5 pets being summoned.  Keeping them small in size (and vulnerable) but in multiples should satisfy everyone.  Another big help would be for our tanking pets to cast AoE attacks to grab group aggro.  Multiple mob encounters are a noticeable weakness for us and this would help address that. In general though I do enjoy my Conjurer quite a bit and have made him my main.  That's not to say there isn't room for improvement, though.

Message Edited by Nachturnal on 06-15-2005 09:23 AM

[Vonyor]

The use of AOE by pets would be interesting. But how does having multiple pets work? If one of them died would I need to kill them all off and summon again or what? Having multiple pets would be nifty if I had a command to have them each attack a differant mob from a group.

[Nachturn]

Yes, I imagine that if one of the group died you'd want to re-cast before the next encounter.  One benefit of EQ2 over CoH is that in EQ2 you can have your pet out all the time.  In CoH all pets are on a timer and unless you invest a lot in upgrades you are petless for a time.  The tradeoff is that CoH pets are very powerful.  One pet type of note in CoH are the tanking pets called Phantom Army.  They are invulnerable, yet do little damage, and you get them at 18. As for your comments on the appearance of our pets, I really like the looks of our spider pets, but dislike the looks of our soldiers.  I'd welcome a visual upgrade.  Again, it's a mixed bag.  I think the lizard looks like it has a bad animated gif and I prefer the Apprentice version to the Adept.  I do like the Grape Ape, however.

[Loral]

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Vonyor wrote:
 I understand why you can't have giant size pets, but why can't they at least be troll size or something.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

You don't want a larger pet. In a raid, it is horrible. The App1 version of the Veteran is simply huge if that is what you want.

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Vonyor wrote:
Also, make it so pets take group aggro from any distance.
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As happy I would be if that happened, I would really think myself way too powerful. My strengh is in tackling hard single targets. When I encounter groups, I need to use a smart combination of root, stun, pet aggro, and control of my own aggro. Takes alot of work, but very doable. Also, in Splitpaw, mobs are one-down-arrow, making them alot weaker than your average normal mob. In 8 Splitpaw runs, I died only 1 time (lv43).

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In relation to the shard of essense, why is it our summonables are useless and that we get so few? We can't even summon food let you allow other classes to? That needs to change. Perhaps we can summon an item that just as the weakest food, lasts 30 minutes, and offers the replenishment that both food and water would. An effect would obviously be stackable with food and water. It would be a higher level spell. And you could even make it so that the shard or whatever items gives  the benefit doesn't decay untill the effect is over (forcing that inventory slot unusable for the time).
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

My 3-charge sliver is an invaluable part of any raid. All my clerics use it, and combined with manastone, it gives them alot more mana in the long run. Of course, when you use it only 1 time, you think it is worthless... But use it in a steady way in long battles, you will notice a difference. Now, my Guild is small, thus we do groupX2 stuff with less than 10 ppl usually, making it even more important.

About food. Given that summoned food makes next to no difference in regeneration, and that vendor food is cheap, and that crafted food is so powerful, then I wouldn't even use the spell. My wife's Mystic spell is not even in any hotbar.

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 A /pet assist soandso (soandso being the main tank) Then a command such as /pet guard soandso (soandso in this case being a caster/cleric) __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

Not sure I would like the game spoonfed to me that much. I know more or less the recycle timer of my spells, and where I am in the casting of my DoTs, so I can keep an eye on the battle and events around it. My interface is setup so I mainly look in the same spot to see group window, maintained spell window, and my hotbars. It is my job to look for adds, as I am the furthest from battle usually. But HOs are the job of the Scout, as their combo ones (scout-fighter-mage if I remember well) are more powerful that mage-initiated ones.

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Vonyor wrote:
Caster pets are way too useless. Give them even less health for all I care, but they need to do more damage. Let them use more mana, then give us a mana regen buff we can cast on them

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From a sneak peek at Fanfaire about the Combat changes, I can tell you, just do not use it for now and be patient. Firepet will get back in his proper place. Also, the Conjurors and Necros will get back up there in the damage ratings next to Warlocks. Be patient.

[Xalmat]

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Vonyor wrote:First of all, if you knew anything about the game you would realize anything with more then 3 mobs such as the the number from my example, is significally less likely to be a heoric encounter, not to mention to be much weaker mobs.

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I happen to know more about the game than I let on. The limit for an encounter to be considered non-heroic is either 2 non-arrow mobs or 4 1-down-arrow mobs, typically. Anything more is considered heroic. Conjurors are more than capable of soloing non-heroic encounters, but the difficulty of said encounters varies wildly depending on the class makeup of mobs, as well as the number of mobs. Soloing two mobs is easier than 4 mobs, simply because you can root one and have your pet take down the other first. But barring that, good old fashioned tanking works just as well.

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Second of all, way to explain how you accomplished this in a believable and helpful fashion. Perhaps posting isn't something everyone should do.

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Start out with full health, full power, rune self with Volatile Haven, and try to have Stoneskin up just in case things go bad. Send pet, open with Shattered Earth, then Quake, Seism, Rockslide or Flash Flood, Storm of Lightning, wait a couple seconds, Quake, Rockslide or Flash Flood again, Seism. By now the majority of mobs will be dead or very close to death. Just deal with the stragglers.What more do you need, a video? I can provide that as well.

Message Edited by Xalmat on 06-15-2005 09:08 AM

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

Never mind.

Message Edited by SkinnyFats on 06-15-2005 11:42 AM

[Briel]

though i am just starting to finish my decision for wizard or conjurer, the idea you bring up is brilliant, but biased against the conjurers, i would have to agree that you cannot expect so much out of your class, try a new one, and let us know how much better it is, if you can't find yourself content with the pet master, conjurers. By the way, send me a message on which you think is cooler, Wizard or Conjurer, also must be good at soloing.Jacques

[Vonyor]

Oh no no no, it's not like that at all. I love the idea of being a conjuror I am not liking how the gameplay of one is turning out. In EQ1 I played a wizard, then a druid, then a mage (mage = conjuror). And the mage turned out to be my favorite character. As for soloing, as much as we totally suck at taking on group mobs. We stand a much better chance with single heroics then probably any class.  Also in comparison to other casters, I think we do much better agaisnt caster NPCs. Pets hold out extremely well with them and there are several spells we can use to stop casters from healing. And as I said from the very begining. I have no intention what so ever of restarting. I do not feel I should have to from the changes that need to be made.

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

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Vonyor wrote:

We stand a much better chance with single heroics then probably any class.

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There are several classes that can solo single heroics MUCH easier than we can.  I watched a 46 wizard soloing 49 ^^ tundra terrors last night in everfrost.  Warlocks can do the same thing, as can some fighter types.  Scouts can sometimes kite them down.   A few healer classes are excellent soloers.  There is absolutely no way I could come close to soloing that mob - no way.

Message Edited by SkinnyFats on 06-16-2005 10:38 AM

[hellfire]

 a conj can do that to depends  what spells ya have  and the equipment ya use

[Vonyor]

I don't think equipment and spells really matter that much unless you are level 50 have the money to get master spells. What seems like primarily healing my pet I have had a pretty successful time taking on single heroics. There have been a few times I have been in a group that decided to pull a single heroic and the whole group except myself get wiped. This however in no way makes up for the experience I lose to green con group mobs or the time I spend on "every" quest seeking assistance to take out a group. Single heorics are far far far less common then grouped heroics.

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

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Vonyor wrote:
What seems like primarily healing my pet I have had a pretty successful time taking on single heroics.

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You've taken on yellow con single heroics 3 levels higher than you?  Or green con single heroics 5 levels lower than you?  I'm referring to yellow con heroics in my post above.  Even chain healing my pet I would be unable to keep him alive for any length of time.  And I see wizards and warlocks solo these mobs all the time.

 

[Xalmat]

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Vonyor wrote:I don't think equipment and spells really matter that much unless you are level 50 have the money to get master spells.

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Might as well stick to Apprentice I spells if that's your opinion. You ought to make every conceivable effort to upgrade all of your spells to at least Adept I. It makes a world of difference.I've never been rich until I hit 49 Tailor, and I can tell you that the average player that makes any effort to save cash can afford rare tradeskill armor and Adept III spells. And every bit of damage increase, mitigation increase, avoidance increase adds up.

[BigRedWo]

Just upgrading the pet spell alone can make a HUGE difference on our survivability.

[Vonyor]

Of coarse, I buy adept spells whenever I can. But I have still had a good time agaisnt single heorics the entire time I have had a pet; and before I even remember having any adept spells. Xalmat your arrogence has made you ignorant. Such as giving someone a list of spells only obtainable by level 50 as a tactical explination on taking on group mobs, it is an irrelavent method of explaining how conjurors actually work.

[Katr]

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Loralor wrote:

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Vonyor wrote:
Caster pets are way too useless. Give them even less health for all I care, but they need to do more damage. Let them use more mana, then give us a mana regen buff we can cast on them

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From a sneak peek at Fanfaire about the Combat changes, I can tell you, just do not use it for now and be patient. Firepet will get back in his proper place. Also, the Conjurors and Necros will get back up there in the damage ratings next to Warlocks. Be patient.

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Ooooh do tell pls?

 

/goes to EQ2Summoners to see if they have any news on it

[Izudin]

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Vonyor wrote:Such as giving someone a list of spells only obtainable by level 50 as a tactical explination on taking on group mobs, it is an irrelavent method of explaining how conjurors actually work.

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We have spell lines that get upgraded while we level up. If you don't know the higher level equivalents of your spells, then go look them up (for example here. Don't attack others when you're too lazy to do some research. Taking on non-heroic groups of mobs is fairly easy if you know what you do. Xalmat gave a good overview of it: ward yourself before combat, send your pet, start casting with shattered ground/earth to stop mobs from using specials right away, use your Seism line of spells to lower the magic resistance of the mobs (so your pet and shattered ground do more damage, also works for HO's). Put in your shards of ice line (this is also great because it snares the mobs for a few seconds, allowing you to kite them if needed). When you have bigger groups, try to root one or more of the mobs away. You need reasonable good equipment and spell upgrades to do this. But if you have them, its not too hard really.

Message Edited by Izudin on 06-17-2005 09:31 AM

[Vonyor]

Oh what a good example, you don't get any version of the ward spell untill level 28. I feel like i'm talking to ebays.

[Loral]

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Vonyor wrote:
Xalmat your arrogence has made you ignorant. Such as giving someone a list of spells only obtainable by level 50 as a tactical explination on taking on group mobs, it is an irrelavent method of explaining how conjurors actually work.

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Never. Ever. Insult. Xalmat.

 

This guy has done more for the Magician/Summonner community over the last years that you can even imagine. Treat him with respect please.

 

Now, nowhere in your posts in this thread have you mentionned your level. We have no way of guessing. Most of the replies you received where made by experienced Conjurors, Not Ebays. Thus they answer with the spells they currently use. This include wards, stoneskin, Hunters, etc.

 

Getting money to upgrade your spells is not that hard, even if you are not tradeskilling at all. Make sure to sell valuable stuff on the Broker instead of NPC vendor. You should have at the very least your pet Ad3, and all your other spells at App4 minimum. Take the best you can afford, especially on your damage spells and pet buffs. It will help.

 

Now, for the topic at hand.

 

Conjuror's strategies vs grouped mobs change alot in later levels. Ward, stoneskin, Fireshield make a difference. Before all thoses special spells (because I assume from your comments that you are below lv26), your choice is pretty much limited.

 

-Intelligent use of Root to get the melee types away from you.

-Have pet hit all mobs a little to get aggro from most mobs on him as possible.

-Stun to help your pet retake aggro from you.

-DoTs on the mob your pet is attacking so other mobs stay on your pet.

-Concentrate on 1 mob at a time.

 

Or

 

-Use your AoE spells to burn down the group as fast as you can, tanking yourself.

-Use fast cast DoTs/nukes between recycle of AoEs.

[Mordith]

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Loralor wrote:

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Vonyor wrote:
Xalmat your arrogence has made you ignorant. Such as giving someone a list of spells only obtainable by level 50 as a tactical explination on taking on group mobs, it is an irrelavent method of explaining how conjurors actually work.

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Never. Ever. Insult. Xalmat.

 

This guy has done more for the Magician/Summonner community over the last years that you can even imagine. Treat him with respect please.

 

. . .

 

Getting money to upgrade your spells is not that hard, even if you are not tradeskilling at all. Make sure to sell valuable stuff on the Broker instead of NPC vendor. You should have at the very least your pet Ad3, and all your other spells at App4 minimum. Take the best you can afford, especially on your damage spells and pet buffs. It will help.

 

. . .

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First, I agree with what you said about Xalmat.  All conjurors owe a great deal of thanks for Xalmat's efforts towards the Magicians and Summoners of Norath.

Second, it is very well put that getting money to upgrade your spells is not that hard and is extremely important.  I have never tradeskilled, I have never harvested a rare beyond a rock in Ant, yet at level 41 I have all my usable spells at adept 1 or better and my main bread and butter spells are at adept 3.  This has been the case since I hit level 20 and I still have over 3p in the bank.

[AngelAtRi]

So how DO you make all  that money? BTW,  nobody owes Xalmat  anything.  It'd help if he didn't act like an elitest  all the time.

[Loral]

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AngelAtRisk wrote:

So how DO you make all  that money?

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-Sell on broker (from your house vault if you cannot stay loggued 24/7) instead of NPC vendor. Collection items, harvested stuff mainly sells very very well.

-Monitor the price of the things you want on broker, and buy it when it is low. Get spells in advance if you think the price will rise.

-If you are good at it, you can play the "buy low, sell high" game to make extra income.

 

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AngelAtRisk wrote:
BTW,  nobody owes Xalmat  anything.  It'd help if he didn't act like an elitest  all the time.

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Then I assume that you never stepped into the Summoner's Tower and never read a single post there, and never used the spell list there, nor the Adept3 suggestion list, nor the Where to Hunt sections, nor the strategies, nor the discussions about the summoner&subclasses there either... If you have done ANYTHING of the above, know that you owe it to him. If you still think we owe him nothing, then I hope never to see you in the Tower.

If you look very carefully, you will notice that he speaks to people as the others are speaking to him. And he can act as he wish if it was up to me. Have respect for him all the same, as he is one of the greatest contributor to the community we ever had.

 

[Fayline Fyrecat]

Yes, cheers to Xalmat.  The time and effort he's put into the magician/summoner class over the years is amazing and is deeply appreciated by this magician/conjuror, and has been since EQ1.

 

But more to the point, regarding "how do you make that much money?"....

 

Personally, I find it hard NOT to make money.  I don't tradeskill, I don't harvest, and I solo 99% of the time.  I've sold a few items/spells on the broker, but the vast majority of my "wealth" has come from good ol' Kruupy the NPC merchant in Castleview.  Let me preface this that I'm well aware that during the lower levels money is much harder to come by and inflation of lower level spells/items/etc. (due to lack of lower level players) would make being lvl 1-20 pretty expensive these days.

 

My recommendations for making money is to farm an instanced zone.  Particularly Dire Hollow/Underrot Caves (from Bloodlines) or the new Splitpaw instance.  No one to split loot with, lots of mobs all to yourself, and plenty of chest drops.  Once you start killing mobs level 40+, the body drops sell for about 20s each and chest drops (i.e. no-stat armor) run on average 2 gold.  The new solo instance in EF is another fantastic zone for loot.  In about 30 minutes I can come out of there at least 5 gold richer in drops, and that's just selling to NPC merchants.  Loralor's post is very true as well, broker anything and everything you can and you'll be better off, I"m just too lazy to bother.

 

Another tip, if you know what mobs drop VLA, hunt them.  Your better off looting your gear than buying it if money truly is an issue.  Stags in EF drop Tundra Walkers armour, which has great int and mana stats for example.

 

Need coin? Farm it.   Solo.  That's all I've ever done and at 46 I have one App4, 4 adept3's (tier 4/5) the rest all adept1 spells and all yellow/orange gear and tier 1 horse. 

 

Also, be patient.  Once you get to EF/LS, cash comes quick :smileyhappy:

[Xalmat]

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Vonyor wrote:As for soloing, as much as we totally suck at taking on group mobs.

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I present three videos that prove you wrong. Two of them as my level 20 Necro soloing Splitpaw (in mostly blue gear, Tellurian Recruit Adept I, Agitation Adept I; yes I did not choose the level 20 training pet), and one as my Conjuror (at the time level 49, with mostly Adept III spells). (I've kept the file size relatively small, but please don't [Removed for Content] my bandwidth. You will need the DivX codec).And before you complain that necros are not conjurors, a level 20 necro is 95% the same as a level 20 conjuror; the difference is the training spells they receive, and the level 20 caster pet.20 Necro vs Splitpaw #120 Necro vs Splitpaw #249 Conjuror vs SplitpawWhile I agree Heroic encounters are beyond our capabilities, they should be beyond a soloer's capabilities, except for the very most skilled and geared. The fact that you have a difficult time soloing heroics is a clear sign they are tuned upwards enough.

Message Edited by Xalmat on 06-17-2005 03:53 PM

[JupiterFive]

Glad to be the first to say nice work in the videos Xalmat.