Conjuror raid balance issues

[RedIris]

Hi all, let my introduce myself

 

Im a level 50 conjuror on highkeep, ive been level 50 sense january 16th and have been in an effective raiding guild for several months.  We have killed darathor and pretty much every encounter there is to be killed, venekor, vox, etc. 

 

I have the master 1 version of my water pet as well as the master version of roaring flames, shattered earth, rockslide and infernous seed as well as a couple others that are not to important.

 

I as well as many members of my guild parse every fight and study them to come up with better ways to do damage our in some cases not die.

 

The primary dps in our guild comes from me, 2 beserkers, 4 assassins a monk and a warlock.

 

The 2 beserkers are both very well equiped wielding slow 2handed master weapons as well as focusing on str on their rare/master armor.  I am not including rampage in any of these examples as rampage is a 1 hour reuse timer and is broken to all hell anyway.

 

The beserkers tend to be grouped with a dirge enchanter and myself.  The reason for this is my proc and the dirge beserker(who has haste/str group buff) and enchanter effect on my pets, which can be pretty amazing I will be the first to admit.

 

My water pets have been clocked in such a group at 250 dps alone vs the eternal gorge instance in commonlands.

 

I know my class pretty well and I tend to maintain roaring flames, flaming agony and swarm of bats while chaining ho's using my level 10 1 second cast training nuke inbetween.  As well as making sure my earth and water pets are posistioned behind the mob to avoid riposites/parries and other such things.  I have gebs and prismatic weapon for power regen as well as an enchanter buff, so running out of power is not a serious issue and I can always tap my manastone or pet or even my own hitpoints when low.

 

I some fights, like the eternal gorge, my pets give a very nice showing of themselves and I come close to the same dps as the beserkers and beat the assassins.

 

In any fight with a damage shield on the mob(zek bemouth instance, lagoon instance in feerott) my water pet is worthless as it dies instantly to the damage shield and the assassins will out damage me and the beserkers will beat me quite handily.

 

In any fight where the mob throws off fire based dot's after 1 tick, the assassins will again beat me and the beserkers will do so quite handily.  Lagoon, nagelick to name a couple.

 

In any fight that throws off magic based dot's after 1 tick, I will be close to the assassins and the beserkers will beat me quite easily.  Antconia instance, Bemouth fight comes to mind.

 

In any fight that is immune to crushing, my water pets are worthless, nagelick for instance, and again everyone will beat me.

 

In an ideal fight, I can use all 4 of my basic types of attacks to nearly match the dps of a beserker(water pet, earth pet, fire based dots, magic based dot's)

 

The vast majority of fights are not ideal, and while i apperciate that some fights should be more effective counters to some classes then others, the situtation right now is somewhat absurd, most fights have an effective counter vs a signifigant portion of my damage, while a beserker can always switch weapon types and hardly be effected at all.

In otherwords, im very vunerable to the resists/immunities and area effects of a mob while a beserker can just switch weapons and get around any such problem.

 

 

To make matters worse, I do not personally feel that a beserker should be doing more damage then a conjuror.  Even under ideal circumstances he still does more damage then me and as stated previously, most fights are not ideal and they are in fact badly out damaging the conjuror class.

 

Part of this problem is the scaling of damage output with equipement and buffs, str and haste buffs greatly enchance a melee's dps while int and power pool buffs enchance it only minimially.  In fact with enchanter power regen buffs, I put forward that int does not have any real effect on caster dps whatsoever.  Thus as players as a guild gain better equipement, the effectiveness of melee's increases while that of the casters does not.  This is the most crucial problem as I see it now, both in balance and in fun.  It is fun gaining better equipement and seeing it translate into effectiveness on the field of battle, it is frustrating gaining better equipement and seeing no effective gains from it.  Joy, I now have 240 int and I do the exact same dps as I did when I had 130 int.  I don't think I can express how upsetting this is, to put forward all that work in improving my character for zero gain.  Power regen items are a signifigant boost to caster dps only because nothing else is, its the one thing we currently have that actually helps, but in reality, in comparision to how str and haste buffs assist the melee, its still pitifully weak.

 

The second major problem is this belief that people have that some classes should be able to do everything, beserkers are the best dps in long fights(even wizards/warlocks can not touch them), they are the 2nd best tanks(only the guardian is a better tank) and they do the most damage in short fights(only warlocks/wizards beat them)

 

And before you suggest that shattered earth lets conjurors out dps them in short vs vs multiple mobs, let me enlightnen you about some area effect spells that the beserkers have.  They have multiple area effect attacks(slaughter and wallop) that do signifigantly more damage then shattered earth and are on faster recast timers.

 

In fact, they do over 1000 dps vs a group of mobs while master 1 shattered earth(which is better then adept 3 shattered ground) + master 1 rockslide(again better then the adept 3 upgrade) does a measly 200 dps in the same fight)  And of course our pets are pretty pointless in such a fight as they only do damage to a single target.

 

In fact there is no situtation in which we do more damage then a beserker, no immunties, no specials, no length of fight, no number of mobs, in all situtations they out damage us and in most of them, they do so by alot.  And remember, im not even counting rampage.

 

And they can tank, let me repeat that, on top of all this they can tank.

 

With respect to other pure dps classes, we are among the weakest when it comes to short fights that are commonplace in experience groups, all our damage is done over time and most fights are to short to effectively let our damage show up.  For us to catch up on dps with most classes, we have to layer 3 or 4 dot's and give them time to sink in, currently most fights are over before the 2nd dot is even on and we only get a tick or 2 of that.  Our spells have slow cast times poor initial damage(consider that most melee attacks are done on 1 second cast time)

 

Also consider that from level 1-40 melee damage was mostly done through special attacks and the actual weapon wasn't that important, this actually changes at 40-50 and the melee weapon begins to do a very singiigant portion of the damage, almost any melee can just sit there doing no specials letting their weapon do all the work for 200 or more dps.  Which is more then what we can do in a short fight.

 

 

Conjurors(and I assume necros) give up alot for their damage, they don't do particulary well in any fight lasting under 25 seconds(which in experice groups is most of them) due to the nature of their damage being done over time.  Where as warlocks and wizards just shine amazingly in short fights, doing 3 if not 4 times our damage.

 

As such I feel that if wizards and warlocks shine at short fights(which is most fights) then we should be the ones to shine at long fights, given the nature of our damage being done over time, this makes sense.

 

I dont think we should do 3 or 4 times as much damage in a long fight, but it should be more.

 

I dont think beserkers should even be close, they should maybe beat us in some specific fights that are highly resistent to our type of damage, but in most long fights we should be at least twice their damage, they can tank, they are more verstile in the type of damage they do and they still should do close to our dps in a short fight.

This should go for every fighter based class, monk, bruiser, etc.  And before you point out that we have better group utility then a beserker, they have group buffs that add 1000 hitpoints to the group(which often gets them grouped in the main tank group, which could be considered the highest honor for having group utility), they also have a very massive group str/haste buff as well as a group proc buff(though not as good as our proc, but still nice)

 

Scout dps should be near our level, they are a tad more versitle(they have problems with mobs that are both slashing and piercing immune, which isnt very common but does exist, hi darathor!)), they tank better, but not well and have similiar utility and again do more damage in short fights then do conjurors, also as poison is being fixed so that it will land on non grey mobs this should in fact fix most of their problems.

 

By scout dps im not including dirge and troub's who have amazing utility and i do not consider a pure dps(same for enchanters types)

 

 

Thx for reading, hope things improve!

 

P.S. please for the love of god fix the login timer for these boards, getting logged out while typing this only to go back and see an empty text box(thus having to retype the entire message) was very annoying.

 

 

 

Message Edited by RedIris on 05-04-2005 08:09 AM

[karasushi]

Nice post! I'm a level 33 conjuror/ 32 provisioner on Faydark. I've only done a handful of raids because at this point i'm putting my focus on leveling and doing a few heritages. On the raids I have participated in, and the xp groups I play my damage is pretty poor in comparison. I usually play with a 34 pally, a 32 zerker a 30 monk, and a 31 cleric. All of the of these players except the cleric outdamage me regularly. On anything but a boss fight with convienent resists it's ridiculous. My understanding of the conjuror class was to trade defense for high amounts of damage. Getting outdamaged by a bunch of tank types is sort of humiliating =/

Prov of Faydark

[Taninga]

great post, couldn't agree more. Using combatstats im repeatedly being beaten by beserkers or often they're just about the same dps if i go crazy burning power...

 

Although nowhere near as annoying i noticed another thing while doing with my friend (a templar, same level as me):

 

She has a DoT type spell (warring faith maybe) which i was vaguely comparing to flaming agony.

 

Her's was appren 1, mine was adept 1.

 

I don't have the exact stats to hand but her spell was quicker to cast, did more damage per tick (and the ticks were slightly quicker i seem to remember), lasted longer and costed less power....

 

Aren't we supposed to be master of DoTs? 

 

I personally don't care whether we're master of DoTs or utility or well... something. Right now we don't really seem to have any real role that i can see unless i'm missing something.

 

Oh well it's still reasonably fun to play i suppose.

[karasushi]

/shrug

 

We're unbalanced, and equipment means nothing really. Except for stuff like golden effreeti boots.

[[email protected]]

Wow, very informative post.  What is your best known method of getting your pet behind mobs?  Thanks!

[MilkToa]

Thanks for the info, great post.

[dbo1]

I totally agree with everything you have said. I'm a 50 conj on Toxxulia and have been extremely disappointed with the int / dps relationship. Not only does equipment have virtually no affect on our dps, there is hardly any very light armor master drops from raid mobs. Another problem as i see it is this, conjurors get three main pets. Even though i haven't tested it thoroughly, i can't really tell a huge significant difference between our veteran (tank pet) and our air/fire pet (dps i would assume). I have adept 3 veteran and air pet. Since they probably won't change our spells too significantly, they should upgrade the damage output of our pets on scale with our int. I think that would help our class more than anything in hte long run.

 

Otuj

50 conj Toxxulia

[Exanth]

I agree with most of this , i'm a 50 prismatic conjuror on crushbone and feal pretty useless on most raids. conjurors DoTs don't do anywhere near what they should be doing. And pets are very messed up, air - fire needs to be fixed. One thing i think would help immensly and make conjurors usefull and important, Call of The Hero. I couldent begin to list the times this spell from EQ1 could of come in handy either on raids or elsewhere.

[DragonMaster2385]

Well, our complaints have been heard and they are going to be answered in the next live update.  I just can't wait until it goes live.

[JupiterFive]

Well first off, I find it hilarious that people post their whines about what they think their class should or shouldn't be, and believe that this has an impact on what SOE does about it.

Secondly, that's all the original post really is: another case of "my class isn't as uber as I think it should be". Albeit windy and elaborate, the raid stuff was just tossed in to try to add credibility leading up to the whine. I'll put some cheese on the broker for you.

Admittedly my post isn't very productive, but someday it would be nice if there were more posts that provided some info about playing the class, which I think is more the purpose of these forums.

Signed,

Get over it, or play something else already

Message Edited by JupiterFive on 06-29-2005 10:30 AM

[Ishbu]

---

JupiterFive wrote:

Well first off, I find it hilarious that people post their whines about what they think their class should or shouldn't be, and believe that this has an impact on what SOE does about it.

Secondly, that's all the original post really is: another case of "my class isn't as uber as I think it should be". Albeit windy and elaborate, the raid stuff was just tossed in to try to add credibility leading up to the whine. I'll put some cheese on the broker for you.

Admittedly my post isn't very productive, but someday it would be nice if there were more posts that provided some info about playing the class, which I think is more the purpose of these forums.

Signed,

Get over it, or play something else already

---

Try re-reading the OP.  The OP details all the situations on how our class (a mage, and thus supposed to be the highest dps according to moorgard) is never the highest dps.  In fact, in all but optimal situations we are getting beat handily becuase half our spells not being useful at all.  In optimal conditions we shine, but so does every other class under optimal conditions.  The entire post is very informative about how useful/useless a conjuror is in situations as well as how messed up the gear situation is at the high end raiding game. 

[Hobbs1]

************************************************** *************************************************

I have the master 1 version of my water pet as well as the master version of roaring flames, shattered earth, rockslide and infernous seed as well as a couple others that are not to important.

 

************************************************** *************************************************

I have come to most of the same conclusions as the OP and for the most part agree. just one question.....when did u get a water pet? ive been lvl 50 since early march  and have yet to see one....

do tell

HOBBS HELLFYRE

50 CONJ

MM SERVER

Message Edited by Hobbs1 on 04-19-2005 12:47 PM

Message Edited by Hobbs1 on 04-19-2005 12:50 PM

[Smeegill]

He is referring to the Aqueos Hunters.  Its our water swarm pet.

[Hobbs1]

AH hmm i always thought of that as a dot myself /shrug and a sure fire way to get you killed against raid mobs too hehe

 

Hobbs Hellfyre

50 Conj

MM Server

[Smeegill]

It can behit and die like a summoned creature.  If it was not able to be hit and killed then yes it would be a real DOT. 

I think I'll see if I can cast any buffs on it ater tonight.  Doesnt flameshield increae your saves?  maybe Im wrong.

[hellfire]

flameshield is just that  no added stats

hunters one of our best damage spells and if you are  getting killed by raid mobs cause of em then thats a good sign the MT is useing app 1 taunt.

anyway this is one spell    get adept 3, after pet buffs.

[Mdnights]

Very informative post .. I dont see it as a rant at all.

 

Question - I am another level 50 conjuror in a raiding guild, prismatic, etc .. and I am being told that I should be adding more hps to my group than I am, and that I should be put in the MT group to add that hp. I cannot figure it out. What buffs do you use and how many hps do you add to a group?

[YanariiFV]

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Mdnightsky wrote:

Very informative post .. I dont see it as a rant at all.

 

Question - I am another level 50 conjuror in a raiding guild, prismatic, etc .. and I am being told that I should be adding more hps to my group than I am, and that I should be put in the MT group to add that hp. I cannot figure it out. What buffs do you use and how many hps do you add to a group?

---

Probably Geotic Brand is being inferred here?  it adds STA, INT, health and AC...

[Mdnights]

Probably a more effective way to ask this question would have been to say what I am using and compare it to what other conjurors are using. I do not have EQ running in front of me so I do not have exact stats of what each spell adds but I am currently stacking Phlogiston (Master I), Geotic Brand (Adept I), and something else that I cannot recall at the moment that is also Adept I. I add about 600 hps to the group.

[Jgok]

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Mdnightsky wrote:

Probably a more effective way to ask this question would have been to say what I am using and compare it to what other conjurors are using. I do not have EQ running in front of me so I do not have exact stats of what each spell adds but I am currently stacking Phlogiston (Master I), Geotic Brand (Adept I), and something else that I cannot recall at the moment that is also Adept I. I add about 600 hps to the group.

---

At level 43, I stack Embers, Geotic Brand, and Alluvial Brand. Adding in the pet and Magi's Shielding, there's my 5 concentration slots. Phlogiston is the upgrade to Embers, so the extra spell you can't remember is probably Alluvial Brand.

 

Master 1 Geotic Brand (at level 50): +24 INT & STA, +391 health, +220 slashing/crushing/piercing mitigation, +715 cold mitigation

 

Master 1 Phlogiston (at level 49): +256 Power 256, +957 mental/magic/divine mitigation

 

Alluvial Brand gives INT, STA, and cold mitigation bonuses. However, I don't believe the STA and Cold mitigation does stacks with Geotic Brand (as far as I've been able to tell). The only benefit to stacking Alluvial Brand is about 20 extra INT.

 

I don't know how many HPs 24 STA gives you, but since you're using adept 1 Geotic Brand, I wouldn't expect more HP than you're already giving (in fact, I'd expect less). I find that in a raid group, the Conjuror is better off grouped with melee DPS (for the Infernus Seed benefit), not tanks.

 

EDIT: Statistics on Master spells from eq2.eqsummoners.com

Message Edited by Jgok on 04-30-2005 01:25 PM