Is our class really that broken or are the majority of Coercers just bad players? - Page 3

Tanatus · 03-22-2006, 08:46 PM

Darkmage lol first of all - mages are DPS, scouts are Utility and I like to see thing way..... As long as I am charming no matter what pet I am at least t2 DPS in some cases (albeit not common) I can out DPS along whole group (and thats the orginal idea behind coercer class - be the uncontested champs of situational DPS)

I'll give you brief example what CC tools coercer posses and I firmly telling you there is no single class in game who can match it...

2 Mez lines - single target that can be casted in ANY condition as long as coercer not dead (or freign dead SMILEY ) that last 50s and AoE mez that last good 25s

2 Roots - one last 50s and have built in pacify (mez in a sence) for 13s on impact!! (not on termination like other classes roots do) and 18s duration with nuke attached to it

4 Stuns - Focus line - upward 11s/2s cast, Confoundment upward 7s/3s cast but! uninteruptible (aka you can cast this stun on a run), PBAE Sonic Boom 7s duration with 2K nuke attached to it Mind Bend reactive stun (3X4s)

1 Stifle - 14s duration with 25s recast (timer start upon casting)

All those spells on ceparate casting timer

And again I really care less about buffs even about crack 86 power/tic in combat susteined make happy every group I been with

crash12145 · 03-24-2006, 06:26 AM

To say that all coercers do not know how to play their class makes me laugh

You may want to go back to the beginning, they had an awesome power drain that was vital on a raid........TAKEN AWAY

They also were able to stun.....stifle......also TAKEN AWAY

SO.......We have regen.....we have reactive damage.......NO stuns, stifles, power drain (that does anything on raid).....MEZ???? This update that they took that completely away from us too (EPIC zones) which was HUGE in T6 raids where the adds were able to wipe the entire raid force but were mezzable!!! But with a Coercer I guess we made that a bit too easy!

As for charming a pet with a full group....BAH.....yes it is fun to do....but it is not a great thing to do. Ever have that pet get broken when your tank pulls a group of three triple ups and accidentally gets an add or two? Tell me what happens then. I will tell you.....he goes straight towards the coercer....one or 2 hits you......and then proceeds to have an extra add on the tank with no chance of crowd control from a dead coercer! Although they did change it to a 3 second mez afterwards so that will be interesting to see if the tank can get it before you get killed (If he is able to see that it is broken), which makes some kind of voice server a MUST!! Not to mention in a full group....you decide not to have your hate gain on the tank?? What is with that situation! From the first time that charm was introduced to me and from every day since it was three concentration slots! Which after your group buffs leave you with no slots left!

The part that I liked about my coercer that just got taken out was my ability to solo a named triple up! I don't know the exact reasoning on why they decided to make some named immune to mez, but I think that it has something to do with this (please tell me if it is any different). Well needless to say we can't do that anymore either.

Just to clarify another point, the reason that there is not a lot of coercers on the servers, are not because they are hard to play or that they are to intellectual for most players. The reason there are hardly any coercers on any Everquest 2 server is that most of them QUIT! The coercer has been talked about ever since I made my coercer and I have never heard of anybody saying that we needed to be nerfed...[Removed for Content]....they have only said "They can't nerf you guys anymore, you have nothing else to take" well.........STOP TALKING ABOUT US.....you are all nerfing us more and more with every expansion and update. Although this time I think they have finally sent us to the doghouse [Removed for Content]!!

I know that there will be a ton of negative responses from various classes about all this, but try to be a coercer, and find out for yourself.

I know how to play my class and I would like to see somebody play it better........amaze me sometime please!!! I will be waiting to see you do it!

AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND, 68 Coercer (Guk Server)

Tanatus · 03-24-2006, 06:33 AM

Crash if you die to 2 hit to your pet - you a) sucky coercer and have no clue what to charm b) naked coercer c) afk coercer - choose one you like most

Crash if your tank pull 3 group and cannt tank it your tank a) sucky tank b) sleeping healer c) coercer have no idea how to use PBAE stun

I tell you what I can take on destroyer in HOF and guess what? I never got killed

crash12145 · 03-24-2006, 06:55 AM

lol.....u wear chain armor? what kind of mobs are you charming....level 50? most mobs you will charm will be your level....and most in any instance is a ^^^ so tell me that you can not get 2 hit by those??

get real

Nerj · 03-24-2006, 09:56 AM

crash12145 wrote:
To say that all coercers do not know how to play their class makes me laugh

You may want to go back to the beginning, they had an awesome power drain that was vital on a raid........TAKEN AWAY

They also were able to stun.....stifle......also TAKEN AWAY

SO.......We have regen.....we have reactive damage.......NO stuns, stifles, power drain (that does anything on raid).....MEZ???? This update that they took that completely away from us too (EPIC zones) which was HUGE in T6 raids where the adds were able to wipe the entire raid force but were mezzable!!! But with a Coercer I guess we made that a bit too easy!

As for charming a pet with a full group....BAH.....yes it is fun to do....but it is not a great thing to do. Ever have that pet get broken when your tank pulls a group of three triple ups and accidentally gets an add or two? Tell me what happens then. I will tell you.....he goes straight towards the coercer....one or 2 hits you......and then proceeds to have an extra add on the tank with no chance of crowd control from a dead coercer! Although they did change it to a 3 second mez afterwards so that will be interesting to see if the tank can get it before you get killed (If he is able to see that it is broken), which makes some kind of voice server a MUST!! Not to mention in a full group....you decide not to have your hate gain on the tank?? What is with that situation! From the first time that charm was introduced to me and from every day since it was three concentration slots! Which after your group buffs leave you with no slots left!

The part that I liked about my coercer that just got taken out was my ability to solo a named triple up! I don't know the exact reasoning on why they decided to make some named immune to mez, but I think that it has something to do with this (please tell me if it is any different). Well needless to say we can't do that anymore either.

Just to clarify another point, the reason that there is not a lot of coercers on the servers, are not because they are hard to play or that they are to intellectual for most players. The reason there are hardly any coercers on any Everquest 2 server is that most of them QUIT! The coercer has been talked about ever since I made my coercer and I have never heard of anybody saying that we needed to be nerfed...[Removed for Content]....they have only said "They can't nerf you guys anymore, you have nothing else to take" well.........STOP TALKING ABOUT US.....you are all nerfing us more and more with every expansion and update. Although this time I think they have finally sent us to the doghouse [Removed for Content]!!

I know that there will be a ton of negative responses from various classes about all this, but try to be a coercer, and find out for yourself.
I know how to play my class and I would like to see somebody play it better........amaze me sometime please!!! I will be waiting to see you do it!

AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND, 68 Coercer (Guk Server)

Actually I believe this was a bug fix as we are unable to charm an epic add but, were able to mez it. I think the intention is to keep epics more challenging and the way to do that is to keep us as mana batteries ONLY!!

Aranieq · 03-24-2006, 06:03 PM

Tanatus wrote:
Crash if you die to 2 hit to your pet - you a) sucky coercer and have no clue what to charm b) naked coercer c) afk coercer - choose one you like most
Crash if your tank pull 3 group and cannt tank it your tank a) sucky tank b) sleeping healer c) coercer have no idea how to use PBAE stun
I tell you what I can take on destroyer in HOF and guess what? I never got killed

I can't believe I'm agreeing with tant outright but here it is...

Now as a coercer with this nifty little charm ability you HAVE to realize it is not a given thing you must WORK to get the benifit of an awesome pet. And yep the better the pet the more on your game you must be when it breaks.

Learn to use your stuns on pet break

When pet is loose target via closest target and tab ect make sure all mobs are on tank if this is the case treat it like an add
if its on you or anyone besides the tank your best CC options will be AE stun / long (10s) stun and recham the pet, then go back for CC if needed on the pull.
with ae stun and decent avoidance you should be able to get charm off with 1 swing on you.
a decent healer worth anything wil have popped a group heal or gone right for you.
if you mezz the add I guarantee unless it's a core group you play with often some goober will be thinking about "saving" you and attack it.. stun guarantees they will be stabbing for not.

Get better gear

it's not a dig by any means at all.. its very easy to focus on spells and forget we quite often turn into tanks.
I keep my avoidance above 40% and have focus as my 3rd choice for skill bounses (after subj and disruption)
I don't have more than 3 peices of armor that DoNot have a + to one of those 3 skills with ord and min thrown in here and there.
STA/HP is important to survive a sudden break ... not to mention a group without mezz love.
In eq1 most ench chose agi or HP as their secondary stat.. I have kept with this theory of we ARE A TANK mentality in eq2 personally.
when the poop hits the fan 2 players can pull a win out of a wipe.. CC and heals. now dont get me wrong DPS and tanks FTW, but a tank and healer will take forever to controll the situation enough for rezzing.. and dps will just beable to knock down a mob or two they will not beable to control the agro from the rezzer/healer.. CC can save it so it is as much of a responsibility to add in our dps as much as possible and setting yourself up to survive what your DPS risk is (ie pet break, bad pull)
groups will pull more and more dangerous events with a coercer/ illusionist in the group to take adavantage of our risk vs rewards abilities.. thats the nature of our class.
so for grear get heal procs, get sta, get agi, as secondary ects.. keep your avoidance up, keep your hp up.
Confoundment cant be intterupted and there are few mobs yellow that will take you down before you get it off. its 7s stun and personal agro redux.

lastly and most important, because its hard and take coordination and adept tactical descissions it pays our great rewards. We ALL had a hard time at one point or another.. some have sworm off using it forever, but the ones that get it down and do it well tend to agree its one of our more amazing abilities if you can handle the risks.

Tanatus · 03-25-2006, 12:26 AM

Rofl Crash you want to know what pets I am using at my lvl 70?

Here we go:

TT (I generally already dont use pets here since I have no practical interest here what so ever) - spellspinners - warlocks lvl 61/62 1 arrow pets

Barren Sky - droag zealot -1 arrow up/2 arrow up lvl 67 or so pet - warlock type (best nuke around 4.3K, good body guard for harvesting - occasionally I pick on 2-3 HEROIC groups SOLO with this pet and win)

Palace of Awakening - usually I am using ghost from very top lvl 70-71 mobs comes in variety from 1 arrow up to 3 arrow up

Vaults - right at zone in there is 6 groups (3 + 3) on both side I usually pick wizard or warlock pet and stick with it lvl 67 or so mob

Bonemire - copse flames - lvl 68/69 mobs no arrow up - with those pets I killed practically every named triple up mob in Bonemire that not epic .... lol save the Young Dragon but I tried!!!! (danm knock back killed me but I did scratch dragon on 20% or so)

Black Sepulcher - BlackRain double up - wizard type of mob (best nuke around 5.5K) lvl 67 mob

Den - Ravasect Drone - lvl 67 double up mob fury type - no warlocks/wizards here but .... this baby can off tank really good I can attack whole group of mobs with this pet and solo it ..... easy

HOF - Droag Destroyer - lvl 68 double/single arrow up mob - best pet ever with this pet I have soloed first named in HoF and defeated it (been owned by the wood chest but thats not a point) altough lost pet

Pretty much every single mob I am charming in native mode (uncharmed) have attack that do 1.4-3K damage a pop and THAT is a reason why I charm em lol. Everything that can potentially kill me within single attack round IS good pet

Now 101 Mondor charming guide for newbies...

Stick with sorc pets - they share PC weakness of thier class - YES they hit like heavy track BUT it take for em FOUR second to nuke you with primary CA thus if you choosen right AA you should have at least 3 attempt to mez it before it nuke once.... And unless you are NAKED you should be able survive 1 nuke

If you have to use melee pet (destroyer comes to mind) - you Confoundment on the run - this stun uninteruptible and can be casted on the run. Why stun? well while enrapture is great spell and can be casted in 99% condition there is 1 way to stop it ... interuption and its what melee mobs do ....

Dont hesistate use root - our roots have 13s built-in mez upon impact!!! (not upon termination like other classes roots) - USE it. With right AA our root is less then 1s casting time

crash12145 · 03-25-2006, 07:50 AM

OK.....like I said I knew I was gonna get a lot of replies from this....lol

Enchanters are Crowd Control like Lockeye says

Yes You can do dps that is not even comparible to any other class in the game, I am not arguing that fact. But a Coercer's MAIN JOB IS REGEN and CROWD CONTROL!!!!!!

So you can say that you never die on any mob that you charm. Good for you .....you must not be bugged like the coercers on my server.....because the 3 second mez that is supposed to occur.....DOES NOT WORK....and if you have used a pet in HOF then you may have realized that those mobs that you fight do have stun and knockback.....so by the time you can move again you are DEAD....I expect to die if my pet breaks, I don't expect a healer to send off a 3 to 5 second heal and get me healed by the time that mob kills me.....we are of course a mage class is what I was meaning in the last post .....we are not meant to take damage and yes out root is nice to use if we can get it off in time.....frankly my pet is on me without me even having a chance to cast root or stun or run or do anything for that matter, although the new update with sonic vision on it is a great idea....you can definetly tell when it breaks...but the mez for 3 seconds does not work at the present time

Tanatus and other coercers that think we are dps should not even read this because you are playing 2 different types of an enchanter....I believe that we are crowd control and regen......if you feel that we are dps....then congrats play for dps....because I have no doubt we do out dps everybody...no questions asked.....it's just the point that if you do have a good group you should not need a pet to take down those mobs. Yes it does definetly make mobs easier to take down but charm is still not perfected for us and until it is my main tanks do NOT want me to use them......yes they think it is awesome that they do so much damage but the risk vs. reward just isn't worth it....until it gets fixed and they all see that it is.

Believe me I would love to use my pet all the time without having to worry about killing somebody in my group because it breaks....also with all the new updates that just came out I am still trying to figure out which mobs resist our stuns pacify stifles and mez....if they can fix that 3 seconds to give us a chance....I will use it all the time...but until.....no thanks

I wasn't meaning to cause an argument with dps'ing coercers just trying to state the fact the I don't feel that the risk vs. reward of a group and me charming a pet is worth it.

TIL THE NEXT POST

AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND 69 COERCER (GUK)

crash12145 · 03-25-2006, 07:53 AM

Oh and tanatus nice list....

Honestly It really is....a lot of coercers will look at that when choosing pets

so thank you for that

AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND

westor · 03-26-2006, 12:14 AM

"For such a useless class with nothing to bring to a raid thats a pretty long list, im not saying that the Enchanter is perfect far from it, i would personally like to see large increases to our raid useable buffs and debuffs and maybe a few new types of buffs/debuffs with the expense of some of our single group spell lines like our power drains since that is rather useless."^We are by no means useless. But we are pretty boring to play on raids. I think thats the issue. I think sony could fix a lot by giving us a direct dmg cast spell line that has the restriction "ONLY Effects Epic Targets". Then we could at least do a bit of dmg on raids since everything else we have doesnt work. That is the best idea i've come up with because you are absolutely right that if you could stifle/stun/mez anything on raids they would trivialize quickly.

"Your doing something seriously wrong then, my mezz works fine on all of the mobs in HoF and also my stuns, cleared the entire zone with no deaths simply because we had CC."^ I dont know what either of you are talking about because you can mez/stun/charm the trash and cant do much to some of the nameds. Your both half right and half wrong.

"It is those players that will not learn how to play a class that complain the loudest"^good post. too true.

"If you want a real challenge, then become a master at playing an Enchanter class."^I totally agree but I also think mastering the main tank takes a good amount of skill. I have 60+ zerk alt that is real fun to play. Either way though, I'm in complete control of my group SMILEY

Yes, control issues...

"Seriously those mobs you cant mez/stun/stiffle can be charmed, and they are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]en dps monsters when they are charmed. Can finish the instance in 1hr np with one. Only problem is if it breaks, I live around 50% of the time, with a healer that knows what is what. People beg me to come clear halls cause its so quick with me around. And if you dont like charming the bigger mobs, charm a destroyer they work as good and you live 90% of the time."^Risk/Reward. I do it too though but its definitely russian roulette to charm the cents. The destroyers though are uber pets your right i get them as i can. But i love to charm a cent and see it hit over 10K.

"It would be cool if they gave rogues or assassin types a skill "distraction" that had a 3-5 min refresh that lasted 10 sec.. that would allow all spells currently not useable on epics to be casted"^That is a good idea but it needs limitations to avoid from chaining. I'd say like 5minute recast and a 2.5minute effect that stayed on mob to prevent it from being recasted. and like a 10 second length or so. that would be a really cool change.

Regards to mezable mobs being charmable as well. Most of the time thats untrue especially in epic zones. and some of the time its not true outside of them. example: named mobs, sha'irs, some PHs...

IMO. raids and coercers could be a little/a lot more friendly. Charmable mobs,window for stuns/stifles, epic only nukes/dots. There is a handful of examples just in this thread. I would hope sony could get around to implementing one of them. As far as solo and group goes coercers are the kings. I will kill anything and then some that no other class can do. My opinion having a level 70 coercer, a level 65zerk, and a handful of other lower chars. The coercer is the hardest to master by far, and the most useful. As far as the thread title is concerned, i agree that most are bad players because they dont understand the class in a group situation. i have a lvl 65 tank i play and when an enchanter casts mez i break it on purpose, unless its that very very rare occasion when its useful. most of the ones i see try to cut down on the group dps when they should be there trying to increase it.

When i play my zerk i almost never group with an enchanter because when i do i am usually dissapointed with what they offer because frankly, most players out there as enchanters suck. People should cry/rant less and learn the class better. knowing what their full potential is, i tell people my coercer is overpowered. another thread refered to them as gods. i like that title and sometimes i feel like one. then i raid and am back to bored. the enchanter takes thought, skill, experimentation, timing, creativity, and alertness, and most people cant keep all those things at max. I consider myself a true gamer, thus, whatever class i do roll with i roll it strong. Many people who play eq are there for the social time. I on the other hand, kill dragons for free. Final Point, Coercer > *.

Thibor24 · 03-26-2006, 11:56 AM

I've just recently started a coercer and wanted to throw my opinion is for the low levels.

This is a fun class but it does have some major issues.

My chief complaints are that charm is breaking far too frequently, i die or run away from my pet almost as much as i do from mobs.

This is almost a game breaking issue for new players i would imagine as it builds frustration.

The power drain lines are completely useless in this era of the game.

If they made charm a lot less breakable and replaced the power drain lines with something else the class would be a whole lot more fun.

Just my 2 cents.

Tanatus · 03-27-2006, 02:53 AM

Crash to be entierly honest SMILEY I DID found and USED 1 pet that normally kill me outright in 1 hit .... but in SAME place I prefer use DIFFERENT pet that have exactly same DPS but much much safer to handle and only reason why I had to use that bloody centurion because group had such sucky tank that lost 3 destroyer (pet was MTing for group and healer was kept healing ,,,, tank lol). So once I depleted all destroyers supplies in area I had to switch on cents...

About mez - it DO work, more over you get "Flash" into your eyes in a moment then charm brakes after that you do have 3s to cast what ever you want to cast or mob will instantly execute CA on you. Only Brawler (centurions) pets totally immune to that type of mez - warlocks/wizards/fury/brigand pets are ok

crash12145 · 03-30-2006, 08:36 AM

Much better....

The charm line is now working!

Once it started working it is 100% better....and I was not 70 at the point and time when I wrote my first post....and yeah I have yet to be one hit since I hit 70...but I haven't charmed the best dps'ing sons of guns in the game that I have seen ....Yet! lol.....but yes it works great now!! HUGE improvement from the days of no warning!

These are what my current stats are at 70....and yes I know that int does have a max at 510....but with yet to get anything in t7 raids the best stuff that a mage can wear has lots of int...with other stats...self buffed here is where I am at for now

health 4189 power 6795 avoidance 39.6% str 62 agi 177 sta 193 int 565 wis 241

I had originally set this up going for power for the simple reason that the named mobs in bonemire were soloable....so I built up power and used it to my advantage using mez followed by psychic wail, stroke, mez.......till the named was dead...and got lots of masters out of doing so....that is the part of our game that they changed the most. As for raids I would not still ever use a charmed pet to attack an epic. I am in the main tank group and hate gain is a must on any tank. So as far as not being able to charm in an epic zone that doesn't bother me at all....although I would like to see power drain become effective once again for the illusionist/coercer class to give us something else to do on a raid. Other than that yes....with the new charm line working the way it does is a very welcome change.

Awesomo Fivethousand 70 Coercer (Guk)

I · 03-30-2006, 11:36 AM

Soon to be 37 Coercer and still loving it, a hell of alot more fun than brig/mystic/wiz I played to the 20s. I'm on a PvP server and I play to PvP, and so far Coercer looks promising end game, and I love being such unplayed class. Can't wait to pvp with a good group that tank trains <3

03-22-2006, 08:46 PM	#61
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Darkmage lol first of all - mages are DPS, scouts are Utility and I like to see thing way..... As long as I am charming no matter what pet I am at least t2 DPS in some cases (albeit not common) I can out DPS along whole group (and thats the orginal idea behind coercer class - be the uncontested champs of situational DPS) I'll give you brief example what CC tools coercer posses and I firmly telling you there is no single class in game who can match it... 2 Mez lines - single target that can be casted in ANY condition as long as coercer not dead (or freign dead ) that last 50s and AoE mez that last good 25s 2 Roots - one last 50s and have built in pacify (mez in a sence) for 13s on impact!! (not on termination like other classes roots do) and 18s duration with nuke attached to it 4 Stuns - Focus line - upward 11s/2s cast, Confoundment upward 7s/3s cast but! uninteruptible (aka you can cast this stun on a run), PBAE Sonic Boom 7s duration with 2K nuke attached to it Mind Bend reactive stun (3X4s) 1 Stifle - 14s duration with 25s recast (timer start upon casting) All those spells on ceparate casting timer And again I really care less about buffs even about crack 86 power/tic in combat susteined make happy every group I been with

03-24-2006, 09:56 AM	#65
Nerj Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	crash12145 wrote: To say that all coercers do not know how to play their class makes me laugh You may want to go back to the beginning, they had an awesome power drain that was vital on a raid........TAKEN AWAY They also were able to stun.....stifle......also TAKEN AWAY SO.......We have regen.....we have reactive damage.......NO stuns, stifles, power drain (that does anything on raid).....MEZ???? This update that they took that completely away from us too (EPIC zones) which was HUGE in T6 raids where the adds were able to wipe the entire raid force but were mezzable!!! But with a Coercer I guess we made that a bit too easy! As for charming a pet with a full group....BAH.....yes it is fun to do....but it is not a great thing to do. Ever have that pet get broken when your tank pulls a group of three triple ups and accidentally gets an add or two? Tell me what happens then. I will tell you.....he goes straight towards the coercer....one or 2 hits you......and then proceeds to have an extra add on the tank with no chance of crowd control from a dead coercer! Although they did change it to a 3 second mez afterwards so that will be interesting to see if the tank can get it before you get killed (If he is able to see that it is broken), which makes some kind of voice server a MUST!! Not to mention in a full group....you decide not to have your hate gain on the tank?? What is with that situation! From the first time that charm was introduced to me and from every day since it was three concentration slots! Which after your group buffs leave you with no slots left! The part that I liked about my coercer that just got taken out was my ability to solo a named triple up! I don't know the exact reasoning on why they decided to make some named immune to mez, but I think that it has something to do with this (please tell me if it is any different). Well needless to say we can't do that anymore either. Just to clarify another point, the reason that there is not a lot of coercers on the servers, are not because they are hard to play or that they are to intellectual for most players. The reason there are hardly any coercers on any Everquest 2 server is that most of them QUIT! The coercer has been talked about ever since I made my coercer and I have never heard of anybody saying that we needed to be nerfed...[Removed for Content]....they have only said "They can't nerf you guys anymore, you have nothing else to take" well.........STOP TALKING ABOUT US.....you are all nerfing us more and more with every expansion and update. Although this time I think they have finally sent us to the doghouse [Removed for Content]!! I know that there will be a ton of negative responses from various classes about all this, but try to be a coercer, and find out for yourself. I know how to play my class and I would like to see somebody play it better........amaze me sometime please!!! I will be waiting to see you do it! AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND, 68 Coercer (Guk Server) Actually I believe this was a bug fix as we are unable to charm an epic add but, were able to mez it. I think the intention is to keep epics more challenging and the way to do that is to keep us as mana batteries ONLY!! __________________ Lockeye wrote: I've watched coercers who solo higher con heroics using 2 unbreakable roots while keeping 2 separate encounters locked down at the same time (no other class could pull off such a heroic feat). That is called Crowd Control. What Enchanter's are supposed to do.

03-24-2006, 06:03 PM	#66
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	Tanatus wrote: Crash if you die to 2 hit to your pet - you a) sucky coercer and have no clue what to charm b) naked coercer c) afk coercer - choose one you like most Crash if your tank pull 3 group and cannt tank it your tank a) sucky tank b) sleeping healer c) coercer have no idea how to use PBAE stun I tell you what I can take on destroyer in HOF and guess what? I never got killed I can't believe I'm agreeing with tant outright but here it is... Now as a coercer with this nifty little charm ability you HAVE to realize it is not a given thing you must WORK to get the benifit of an awesome pet. And yep the better the pet the more on your game you must be when it breaks. Learn to use your stuns on pet break When pet is loose target via closest target and tab ect make sure all mobs are on tank if this is the case treat it like an add if its on you or anyone besides the tank your best CC options will be AE stun / long (10s) stun and recham the pet, then go back for CC if needed on the pull. with ae stun and decent avoidance you should be able to get charm off with 1 swing on you. a decent healer worth anything wil have popped a group heal or gone right for you. if you mezz the add I guarantee unless it's a core group you play with often some goober will be thinking about "saving" you and attack it.. stun guarantees they will be stabbing for not. Get better gear it's not a dig by any means at all.. its very easy to focus on spells and forget we quite often turn into tanks. I keep my avoidance above 40% and have focus as my 3rd choice for skill bounses (after subj and disruption) I don't have more than 3 peices of armor that DoNot have a + to one of those 3 skills with ord and min thrown in here and there. STA/HP is important to survive a sudden break ... not to mention a group without mezz love. In eq1 most ench chose agi or HP as their secondary stat.. I have kept with this theory of we ARE A TANK mentality in eq2 personally. when the poop hits the fan 2 players can pull a win out of a wipe.. CC and heals. now dont get me wrong DPS and tanks FTW, but a tank and healer will take forever to controll the situation enough for rezzing.. and dps will just beable to knock down a mob or two they will not beable to control the agro from the rezzer/healer.. CC can save it so it is as much of a responsibility to add in our dps as much as possible and setting yourself up to survive what your DPS risk is (ie pet break, bad pull) groups will pull more and more dangerous events with a coercer/ illusionist in the group to take adavantage of our risk vs rewards abilities.. thats the nature of our class. so for grear get heal procs, get sta, get agi, as secondary ects.. keep your avoidance up, keep your hp up. Confoundment cant be intterupted and there are few mobs yellow that will take you down before you get it off. its 7s stun and personal agro redux. lastly and most important, because its hard and take coordination and adept tactical descissions it pays our great rewards. We ALL had a hard time at one point or another.. some have sworm off using it forever, but the ones that get it down and do it well tend to agree its one of our more amazing abilities if you can handle the risks. __________________

03-26-2006, 12:14 AM	#70
westor Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4	"For such a useless class with nothing to bring to a raid thats a pretty long list, im not saying that the Enchanter is perfect far from it, i would personally like to see large increases to our raid useable buffs and debuffs and maybe a few new types of buffs/debuffs with the expense of some of our single group spell lines like our power drains since that is rather useless."^We are by no means useless. But we are pretty boring to play on raids. I think thats the issue. I think sony could fix a lot by giving us a direct dmg cast spell line that has the restriction "ONLY Effects Epic Targets". Then we could at least do a bit of dmg on raids since everything else we have doesnt work. That is the best idea i've come up with because you are absolutely right that if you could stifle/stun/mez anything on raids they would trivialize quickly. "Your doing something seriously wrong then, my mezz works fine on all of the mobs in HoF and also my stuns, cleared the entire zone with no deaths simply because we had CC."^ I dont know what either of you are talking about because you can mez/stun/charm the trash and cant do much to some of the nameds. Your both half right and half wrong. "It is those players that will not learn how to play a class that complain the loudest"^good post. too true. "If you want a real challenge, then become a master at playing an Enchanter class."^I totally agree but I also think mastering the main tank takes a good amount of skill. I have 60+ zerk alt that is real fun to play. Either way though, I'm in complete control of my group Yes, control issues... "Seriously those mobs you cant mez/stun/stiffle can be charmed, and they are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]en dps monsters when they are charmed. Can finish the instance in 1hr np with one. Only problem is if it breaks, I live around 50% of the time, with a healer that knows what is what. People beg me to come clear halls cause its so quick with me around. And if you dont like charming the bigger mobs, charm a destroyer they work as good and you live 90% of the time."^Risk/Reward. I do it too though but its definitely russian roulette to charm the cents. The destroyers though are uber pets your right i get them as i can. But i love to charm a cent and see it hit over 10K. "It would be cool if they gave rogues or assassin types a skill "distraction" that had a 3-5 min refresh that lasted 10 sec.. that would allow all spells currently not useable on epics to be casted"^That is a good idea but it needs limitations to avoid from chaining. I'd say like 5minute recast and a 2.5minute effect that stayed on mob to prevent it from being recasted. and like a 10 second length or so. that would be a really cool change. Regards to mezable mobs being charmable as well. Most of the time thats untrue especially in epic zones. and some of the time its not true outside of them. example: named mobs, sha'irs, some PHs... IMO. raids and coercers could be a little/a lot more friendly. Charmable mobs,window for stuns/stifles, epic only nukes/dots. There is a handful of examples just in this thread. I would hope sony could get around to implementing one of them. As far as solo and group goes coercers are the kings. I will kill anything and then some that no other class can do. My opinion having a level 70 coercer, a level 65zerk, and a handful of other lower chars. The coercer is the hardest to master by far, and the most useful. As far as the thread title is concerned, i agree that most are bad players because they dont understand the class in a group situation. i have a lvl 65 tank i play and when an enchanter casts mez i break it on purpose, unless its that very very rare occasion when its useful. most of the ones i see try to cut down on the group dps when they should be there trying to increase it. When i play my zerk i almost never group with an enchanter because when i do i am usually dissapointed with what they offer because frankly, most players out there as enchanters suck. People should cry/rant less and learn the class better. knowing what their full potential is, i tell people my coercer is overpowered. another thread refered to them as gods. i like that title and sometimes i feel like one. then i raid and am back to bored. the enchanter takes thought, skill, experimentation, timing, creativity, and alertness, and most people cant keep all those things at max. I consider myself a true gamer, thus, whatever class i do roll with i roll it strong. Many people who play eq are there for the social time. I on the other hand, kill dragons for free. Final Point, Coercer > *.

03-26-2006, 11:56 AM	#71
Thibor24 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 180	I've just recently started a coercer and wanted to throw my opinion is for the low levels. This is a fun class but it does have some major issues. My chief complaints are that charm is breaking far too frequently, i die or run away from my pet almost as much as i do from mobs. This is almost a game breaking issue for new players i would imagine as it builds frustration. The power drain lines are completely useless in this era of the game. If they made charm a lot less breakable and replaced the power drain lines with something else the class would be a whole lot more fun. Just my 2 cents. __________________ Mishrack 70 Conjurer Gloaming 61 Coercer Of Highkeep

03-24-2006, 06:26 AM	#62
crash12145 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5	To say that all coercers do not know how to play their class makes me laugh You may want to go back to the beginning, they had an awesome power drain that was vital on a raid........TAKEN AWAY They also were able to stun.....stifle......also TAKEN AWAY SO.......We have regen.....we have reactive damage.......NO stuns, stifles, power drain (that does anything on raid).....MEZ???? This update that they took that completely away from us too (EPIC zones) which was HUGE in T6 raids where the adds were able to wipe the entire raid force but were mezzable!!! But with a Coercer I guess we made that a bit too easy! As for charming a pet with a full group....BAH.....yes it is fun to do....but it is not a great thing to do. Ever have that pet get broken when your tank pulls a group of three triple ups and accidentally gets an add or two? Tell me what happens then. I will tell you.....he goes straight towards the coercer....one or 2 hits you......and then proceeds to have an extra add on the tank with no chance of crowd control from a dead coercer! Although they did change it to a 3 second mez afterwards so that will be interesting to see if the tank can get it before you get killed (If he is able to see that it is broken), which makes some kind of voice server a MUST!! Not to mention in a full group....you decide not to have your hate gain on the tank?? What is with that situation! From the first time that charm was introduced to me and from every day since it was three concentration slots! Which after your group buffs leave you with no slots left! The part that I liked about my coercer that just got taken out was my ability to solo a named triple up! I don't know the exact reasoning on why they decided to make some named immune to mez, but I think that it has something to do with this (please tell me if it is any different). Well needless to say we can't do that anymore either. Just to clarify another point, the reason that there is not a lot of coercers on the servers, are not because they are hard to play or that they are to intellectual for most players. The reason there are hardly any coercers on any Everquest 2 server is that most of them QUIT! The coercer has been talked about ever since I made my coercer and I have never heard of anybody saying that we needed to be nerfed...[Removed for Content]....they have only said "They can't nerf you guys anymore, you have nothing else to take" well.........STOP TALKING ABOUT US.....you are all nerfing us more and more with every expansion and update. Although this time I think they have finally sent us to the doghouse [Removed for Content]!! I know that there will be a ton of negative responses from various classes about all this, but try to be a coercer, and find out for yourself. I know how to play my class and I would like to see somebody play it better........amaze me sometime please!!! I will be waiting to see you do it! AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND, 68 Coercer (Guk Server)

03-24-2006, 06:33 AM	#63
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Crash if you die to 2 hit to your pet - you a) sucky coercer and have no clue what to charm b) naked coercer c) afk coercer - choose one you like most Crash if your tank pull 3 group and cannt tank it your tank a) sucky tank b) sleeping healer c) coercer have no idea how to use PBAE stun I tell you what I can take on destroyer in HOF and guess what? I never got killed

03-24-2006, 06:55 AM	#64
crash12145 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5	lol.....u wear chain armor? what kind of mobs are you charming....level 50? most mobs you will charm will be your level....and most in any instance is a ^^^ so tell me that you can not get 2 hit by those?? get real

03-25-2006, 12:26 AM	#67
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Rofl Crash you want to know what pets I am using at my lvl 70? Here we go: TT (I generally already dont use pets here since I have no practical interest here what so ever) - spellspinners - warlocks lvl 61/62 1 arrow pets Barren Sky - droag zealot -1 arrow up/2 arrow up lvl 67 or so pet - warlock type (best nuke around 4.3K, good body guard for harvesting - occasionally I pick on 2-3 HEROIC groups SOLO with this pet and win) Palace of Awakening - usually I am using ghost from very top lvl 70-71 mobs comes in variety from 1 arrow up to 3 arrow up Vaults - right at zone in there is 6 groups (3 + 3) on both side I usually pick wizard or warlock pet and stick with it lvl 67 or so mob Bonemire - copse flames - lvl 68/69 mobs no arrow up - with those pets I killed practically every named triple up mob in Bonemire that not epic .... lol save the Young Dragon but I tried!!!! (danm knock back killed me but I did scratch dragon on 20% or so) Black Sepulcher - BlackRain double up - wizard type of mob (best nuke around 5.5K) lvl 67 mob Den - Ravasect Drone - lvl 67 double up mob fury type - no warlocks/wizards here but .... this baby can off tank really good I can attack whole group of mobs with this pet and solo it ..... easy HOF - Droag Destroyer - lvl 68 double/single arrow up mob - best pet ever with this pet I have soloed first named in HoF and defeated it (been owned by the wood chest but thats not a point) altough lost pet Pretty much every single mob I am charming in native mode (uncharmed) have attack that do 1.4-3K damage a pop and THAT is a reason why I charm em lol. Everything that can potentially kill me within single attack round IS good pet Now 101 Mondor charming guide for newbies... Stick with sorc pets - they share PC weakness of thier class - YES they hit like heavy track BUT it take for em FOUR second to nuke you with primary CA thus if you choosen right AA you should have at least 3 attempt to mez it before it nuke once.... And unless you are NAKED you should be able survive 1 nuke If you have to use melee pet (destroyer comes to mind) - you Confoundment on the run - this stun uninteruptible and can be casted on the run. Why stun? well while enrapture is great spell and can be casted in 99% condition there is 1 way to stop it ... interuption and its what melee mobs do .... Dont hesistate use root - our roots have 13s built-in mez upon impact!!! (not upon termination like other classes roots) - USE it. With right AA our root is less then 1s casting time

03-25-2006, 07:50 AM	#68
crash12145 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5	OK.....like I said I knew I was gonna get a lot of replies from this....lol Enchanters are Crowd Control like Lockeye says Yes You can do dps that is not even comparible to any other class in the game, I am not arguing that fact. But a Coercer's MAIN JOB IS REGEN and CROWD CONTROL!!!!!! So you can say that you never die on any mob that you charm. Good for you .....you must not be bugged like the coercers on my server.....because the 3 second mez that is supposed to occur.....DOES NOT WORK....and if you have used a pet in HOF then you may have realized that those mobs that you fight do have stun and knockback.....so by the time you can move again you are DEAD....I expect to die if my pet breaks, I don't expect a healer to send off a 3 to 5 second heal and get me healed by the time that mob kills me.....we are of course a mage class is what I was meaning in the last post .....we are not meant to take damage and yes out root is nice to use if we can get it off in time.....frankly my pet is on me without me even having a chance to cast root or stun or run or do anything for that matter, although the new update with sonic vision on it is a great idea....you can definetly tell when it breaks...but the mez for 3 seconds does not work at the present time Tanatus and other coercers that think we are dps should not even read this because you are playing 2 different types of an enchanter....I believe that we are crowd control and regen......if you feel that we are dps....then congrats play for dps....because I have no doubt we do out dps everybody...no questions asked.....it's just the point that if you do have a good group you should not need a pet to take down those mobs. Yes it does definetly make mobs easier to take down but charm is still not perfected for us and until it is my main tanks do NOT want me to use them......yes they think it is awesome that they do so much damage but the risk vs. reward just isn't worth it....until it gets fixed and they all see that it is. Believe me I would love to use my pet all the time without having to worry about killing somebody in my group because it breaks....also with all the new updates that just came out I am still trying to figure out which mobs resist our stuns pacify stifles and mez....if they can fix that 3 seconds to give us a chance....I will use it all the time...but until.....no thanks I wasn't meaning to cause an argument with dps'ing coercers just trying to state the fact the I don't feel that the risk vs. reward of a group and me charming a pet is worth it. TIL THE NEXT POST AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND 69 COERCER (GUK)

03-25-2006, 07:53 AM	#69
crash12145 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5	Oh and tanatus nice list.... Honestly It really is....a lot of coercers will look at that when choosing pets so thank you for that AWESOMO FIVETHOUSAND

03-27-2006, 02:53 AM	#72
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Crash to be entierly honest I DID found and USED 1 pet that normally kill me outright in 1 hit .... but in SAME place I prefer use DIFFERENT pet that have exactly same DPS but much much safer to handle and only reason why I had to use that bloody centurion because group had such sucky tank that lost 3 destroyer (pet was MTing for group and healer was kept healing ,,,, tank lol). So once I depleted all destroyers supplies in area I had to switch on cents... About mez - it DO work, more over you get "Flash" into your eyes in a moment then charm brakes after that you do have 3s to cast what ever you want to cast or mob will instantly execute CA on you. Only Brawler (centurions) pets totally immune to that type of mez - warlocks/wizards/fury/brigand pets are ok

03-30-2006, 08:36 AM	#73
crash12145 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5	Much better.... The charm line is now working! Once it started working it is 100% better....and I was not 70 at the point and time when I wrote my first post....and yeah I have yet to be one hit since I hit 70...but I haven't charmed the best dps'ing sons of guns in the game that I have seen ....Yet! lol.....but yes it works great now!! HUGE improvement from the days of no warning! These are what my current stats are at 70....and yes I know that int does have a max at 510....but with yet to get anything in t7 raids the best stuff that a mage can wear has lots of int...with other stats...self buffed here is where I am at for now health 4189 power 6795 avoidance 39.6% str 62 agi 177 sta 193 int 565 wis 241 I had originally set this up going for power for the simple reason that the named mobs in bonemire were soloable....so I built up power and used it to my advantage using mez followed by psychic wail, stroke, mez.......till the named was dead...and got lots of masters out of doing so....that is the part of our game that they changed the most. As for raids I would not still ever use a charmed pet to attack an epic. I am in the main tank group and hate gain is a must on any tank. So as far as not being able to charm in an epic zone that doesn't bother me at all....although I would like to see power drain become effective once again for the illusionist/coercer class to give us something else to do on a raid. Other than that yes....with the new charm line working the way it does is a very welcome change. Awesomo Fivethousand 70 Coercer (Guk)

03-30-2006, 11:36 AM	#74
I Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 8	Soon to be 37 Coercer and still loving it, a hell of alot more fun than brig/mystic/wiz I played to the 20s. I'm on a PvP server and I play to PvP, and so far Coercer looks promising end game, and I love being such unplayed class. Can't wait to pvp with a good group that tank trains <3