Is our class really that broken or are the majority of Coercers just bad players? - Page 2

Tanatus · 03-13-2006, 11:18 PM

Aranieq please enlight me in which raiding instance you actually was able charm trash mob.... Because NONE of T6 raiding instance have any charmable mobs save 1 - LJ

Aranieq · 03-13-2006, 11:24 PM

Ghost form moonchild if you land it before they wax it, for one allthough i've never actually used him charm will cast, I'm ussually busy with CC on them. Just example

Tanatus · 03-14-2006, 01:13 AM

They are mezable not charmable .... Not a single mob in courts suceptible to charm ... trust me lol I tried every single of em same goes for gates, same goes for PPtR, never been in PoS but I can safely assume it same....

The second raid place where you actually can deliver charmed pet is raiding area of SC but the only way to have charmed pet is bring it with you from no raiding area

Aranieq · 03-14-2006, 05:21 AM

you donnot get the will not work on target mesage on the ghosts... thats why i used them for an example because i had tested them recently (within last 30 days) LIke I said i didnt use it as a pet but dominate casted on it.. weather it is very resistful or not can't tell you.. but there is no mesage. Now this is a moot point since it wouldnt make that great of a pet anyway and in this circumstand dps buff and full conentration on epic mob is a better trade off than a heroic pet. But it was just an example. Now T6 is not the only conent out there. I can name tons of T5 stuff charmable because it was actually more practical to charm in those instances than to focus on main mob, whereas most fo the T6 stuff I've been to the dps of a charmed pet did not outweight the focus I loose as a pet handler/possible pet break and the dps i contribute or from my buff as well as the group buff.

Now before it gets into an argument of what silly mob that shouldnt even be is charmable or not... Charm is our debatably unique ability but is is not what makes us special.. its far more complex than that. even the time taken to hit pet attack is the time lost on reactive dps with followthrough confoundment. I do not care to be pigeon holed as a pet handler. While charm gives me great power it is not the limit to my ability. On most raids I am second on the hate list.. and that can't be blamed by spell whip anymore... I am busy from inc pull to Mob falling with my abilities. When i chose to charm its because it offers a leverage or benifit over my other abilities I am passing up to do so, not just because I need to show a pressence of DPS superiority. I know I am contributing when the tank drops and the mob has me for a split second before the backup gets rescue. I know I am a good coercer because I have educated my guild in what we can do and how to employ me best. I believe we are about controll.. we controll the croud the mob the situation even our charm is a control ability not a summoned pet handling routine charecteristic(not to downplaye TRUE pet focused classes). Yes I have great DPS with a pet but I am often 2nd or 3rd on the parser in groups without a pet. This does not mean a coercer is overpowered and whip out the nerf bat I work very hard to time my reactives for maximum damage time and refresh rates along with my agro.. It might be from my scout time but I can't waste a lot of time manuveing the pet if its not more benificial to do so over the time I loose on my reactives cycle.

Now if it is your desire to see more charm content then by all means push for it.. but it is not allways the best choice JUST because we can.

Flipmode · 03-14-2006, 08:07 AM

I charmed a frog gardner in Court of Alafaz...so thats one

Lleinen · 03-14-2006, 12:33 PM

Flipmode wrote:
I charmed a frog gardner in Court of Alafaz...so thats one

Tried that, epic, cant do it anymore. Seems in the newer raid zones (KoS) there are actually heroic charmable mobs placed in the zones randomly, which I like, because now I can charm and actually pay attention on raids.

Also, didnt read OP and a lot of the posts, because they're so da*mn long, but I think the problem is in raids we COULD, if we wanted, just sit back and click maybe 1 or 2 buttons an entire fight and it would still come to the good conclusion (aka mob dies). We are buff [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es...and not even that, only our aggro buff! Usually its a waste to put us in melee groups because other classes can fit in there to give them procs and stuff, so I dont think our DPS line is utilized unless we are soloing.

But yah...I am really good at my chanter. I have done some amazing crap (because of skill) and its awsome...but when it comes to raids....we fall on our face and thats the problem.

Jazzmaster · 03-14-2006, 12:58 PM

Lleinen wrote:
so I dont think our DPS line is utilized unless we are soloing.

Sell me some of the crack your smoking. Thanks.

Flipmode · 03-14-2006, 01:20 PM

Lleinen wrote:
Flipmode wrote:
I charmed a frog gardner in Court of Alafaz...so thats one

Tried that, epic, cant do it anymore. Seems in the newer raid zones (KoS) there are actually heroic charmable mobs placed in the zones randomly, which I like, because now I can charm and actually pay attention on raids.
Also, didnt read OP and a lot of the posts, because they're so da*mn long, but I think the problem is in raids we COULD, if we wanted, just sit back and click maybe 1 or 2 buttons an entire fight and it would still come to the good conclusion (aka mob dies). We are buff [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es...and not even that, only our aggro buff! Usually its a waste to put us in melee groups because other classes can fit in there to give them procs and stuff, so I dont think our DPS line is utilized unless we are soloing.
But yah...I am really good at my chanter. I have done some amazing crap (because of skill) and its awsome...but when it comes to raids....we fall on our face and thats the problem.

Must not have tried recently...just did it yesterday. If its mezzable, its usually stunable and charmable too.

Mandelbro · 03-14-2006, 09:19 PM

Flipmode wrote:
Must not have tried recently...just did it yesterday. If its mezzable, its usually stunable and charmable too.

Really? I haven't found that to be the case. Granted, if something is not mezzable, then it's very very likely to not be charmable either. However just because something is mezzable doesn't mean it can be charmed, in my experience.

Flipmode · 03-14-2006, 09:40 PM

Mandelbrodt wrote:
Flipmode wrote:
Must not have tried recently...just did it yesterday. If its mezzable, its usually stunable and charmable too.
Really? I haven't found that to be the case. Granted, if something is not mezzable, then it's very very likely to not be charmable either. However just because something is mezzable doesn't mean it can be charmed, in my experience.

Try it if you dont believe me. Co to courts and charm a gardner. The mezzable rule is a general rule and is usually true 9 of 10 times. Ill take a Screenshot of me with my pet next time we go there.

Mandelbro · 03-15-2006, 12:48 AM

Whoa there. I'm not calling you a liar. Chill out a bit. I'm just cautioning that your statement should not be taken as a rule.

Tanatus · 03-15-2006, 02:59 AM

Tried resently (about week ago) - nope its NOT charmable with Master 1 Dominate. Yes it WAS mezabe, NO its wasn't charmable.... (unless something been changed in last 2 week) TONE monsters in T6 are mezable heck most EpicX2 and EpicX4 are mezable AND stunable .... but not charmable

Speaking about T5 (data about 2 months old thou)

SOTL - nothing charmable

MotM - nothing charmable

Drayek Charmber - nothing charmable

King Zalak - nothing charmable - lol not even pariarth's

Arlich Udalan - nothing charmable - lol not even chaos elementals

So what again was TONE charmable content within T5 raiding?

Message Edited by Tanatus on 03-14-200605:00 PM

Spellz · 03-16-2006, 05:30 AM

Osswald wrote:
Aranieq wrote:
I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it.
Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there.
I would say that any enchanter that is a good player has felt this and desires it. I know when you player with players that play their classes as well as good enchanters you would find people who can push the limits to high end content as opposed to people who think they should be entitled to do it by virtue of gracing us with their presense. We are a solid class for people who can understand the class and play it well. Groups and Soloing.
Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here.
I like the use of the words tricky and complicated. I did like it when you could cast all the reactives you had and if they proced you had to worry about agro. So you had to produce a stradegy and not over do it. I don't like the fact that people that can't control over excessive button pushing decide the fate of a class rather than ones who play it well.
I love being a coercer and I find it to be a challenging and rewarding class. If a few changes were made in the raiding department I really believe we got something going here. And a clearification on what possesion is good for wouldn't hurt me either.
Message Edited by Osswald on 03-11-200604:46 PM

i agree. The coercer is good as it is, nice and tricky that it actually feels worthwhile mastering it. If we get the "much needed DPS changes" that some ppl are whining that they want, we'd just become some weird Conj/Wizard hybrid.It is fine as it is, the only change i really thought was nessicary they are adressing. the new "when charm runs out, it will graphicly show you", there is a difference between "the excitment of not knowing when it will run out" and not knowing that it has run out until you are at 1/2 health.

Darkmage6 · 03-18-2006, 07:15 AM

On my server there are so few coercers there almost extinct besides coercers are horribly underpowered compared to conj's i have seen many times with my own 2 eyes lvl 42 conj soloing 3 lvl 47's at once.Play a coercer then play a conj you will see we are sooo underpowered its not funny.

Thro · 03-18-2006, 10:17 PM

Darkmage666 wrote:On my server there are so few coercers there almost extinct besides coercers are horribly underpowered compared to conj's i have seen many times with my own 2 eyes lvl 42 conj soloing 3 lvl 47's at once.Play a coercer then play a conj you will see we are sooo underpowered its not funny.

There is nothing a conj can solo that my coercer can't solo . . . period. Coercers are a great class. The only problem I currently have with the class is the issue of our powers being negated against certain mobs (e.g., epics) and the lack of charmable mobs in epic zones.

Agreed with the comments from various posters here: the last thing I personally want to see are "fixes" to make this already amazing class just another button mashing FoTM.

Vreck · 03-19-2006, 12:38 AM

They should add some mobs to every raid zone, that are not epics, to be charmed by us. Mobs that are not in any way needed to clear during events, that aren't interfering with anything, just mobs that are available to charm.

Signal9 · 03-19-2006, 02:31 AM

Vreck wrote:They should add some mobs to every raid zone, that are not epics, to be charmed by us. Mobs that are not in any way needed to clear during events, that aren't interfering with anything, just mobs that are available to charm.

This is exactly how zones were laid out in EQ1. There were only one or two mobs in the zone that would qualify for the best charm (Dire Charm) up at a time. Enchanters would regularly warn the group off of killing these mobs so that they could use them.

Vreck · 03-19-2006, 09:11 AM

Yes, I had EQ1 in mind when I wrote it, but since this practically isn't EQ1 at all, I wouldn't mention it. Still, it's a good idea, if I may say so. We don't have Dire Charm like in EQ1, so it's not as safe. And everything that can AE in a raid for a good deal of damage will probably off the pet in one hit. I think it would probably make a lot of coercers more satisfied, by giving them something to do.

Tanatus · 03-20-2006, 12:38 AM

Well dire charm was for wusses lol real chanters used real pet .....

Vreck · 03-20-2006, 01:27 AM

As I said, this wasn't meant to be a discussion on EQ1. This was just an idea "borrowed" from it. Dire Charm is a thing of another game, we get to have a charm that break whenever you least expect it. Still, it's not the issue here.

Signal9 · 03-20-2006, 05:23 PM

Tanatus wrote:
Well dire charm was for wusses lol real chanters used real pet .....

True, Tan, but in essence, we have a charmed mob the strength of a standard "dire charm" pet. It's quite a bit below any other mob in the zone. We just don't have the surety that the mob will be charmed until death.

Tanatus · 03-21-2006, 02:35 AM

Well yes and no SMILEY

Power of our pets directly linked to quality of our charm and our lvl ....

Darkmage6 · 03-21-2006, 07:34 PM

I have been in dozens of groups enchanters on my server are almost extinct i have not been in a group with a single one, i have noticed though that most have quit playing there enchanter for bards or other classes.My guild is huge 300+ we dont have a single enchanter thats a main , i like coercer i thought yea there fun till i started getting close to 40 and found we dont scale that all other classes get better everything than we do and we have nothing thats unique.Our damage is subpar even clerics outdamage us, other classes mez better than us, regen power better than us, conj pets blow away anything we can have esp there tank pet.And most of all we are nothing more than power batteries when in epic raids i really want more than that our CC abilites just dont seem all that great besides with aoe classes CC is kinda useless slows down exping.

Rominian · 03-21-2006, 09:09 PM

I agree with most here, coercers do need to be able to have some raid abillty other than as a battery. I hear talk about the Amnesia spell being useful, which is true, but last time I looked Amnesia wasnt supposed to be effective against epics, so its either not working as described or its a bug. I will say that last night we raided in Temple of Scale, and I was in the MT group for a while, so I had my agro buff on the MT. They took me out of the group for a little while, but then found that the wizards, conjurors and necros were dying because they were pulling agro, and yes, they do know how to play =P. They put me back with the MT and low and behold, it stopped happening. That made me feel useful, but many times raid leaders dont realize what we can do, so we get stuck in the battery role rather than used in the best place. I see our heal crit AA as decent, the ONLY one that I feel is of real use (yes I am severely disappointed with our AA selections, its as if they didnt know what to give us), but other than that our AAs seem to be self only. Our spell haste AA would be nice, IF it could be applied to a group. As for the hate reduction AA, it can be useful, but ONLY if the target is targeting an enemy, otherwise its useless, so if I am at a raid and my healer gets agro, unless they are healing through the mob the AA goes out the window and wont help. I asked last night how many healers were healing through the mob, none were due to the setup. What I would like to see for an enchanter AA would be a self rune, but I doubt that will happen, I think we are stuck with what we have. Good luck out there.

Nerj · 03-21-2006, 09:19 PM

The Amnesia portion does work. What doesn't is the stun portion. So as soon as the spell hits, the MOB has YOU as number one on the hit list.

Rominian · 03-21-2006, 09:52 PM

Youre right Nerjin, I just looked at that again, thanks for pointing that out. I didnt realize that there were 3 pages of this, so I went and read everything to see what you all think. I will be honest, I had a cleric main that I leveled to 50, then made a coercer because I wanted to be able to charm things, it was what made the class unique and gave me the patience to tolerate living in Freeport. I have not been able to put my coercer down since I started her, I have tried a few times to go back and level my cleric, but I find it to be boring in the extreme. Coercer for me is an extremely fun and challenging class to play, and I know that me being in a group has made the difference in being able to take down mobs. Most grouping as an enchanter class means that I am a battery, I can mez things, but it is rarely really needed, and I find that most groups just break them anyway, though I have a hotbutton saying which targets are mezzed. I Blame this mostly on the fact that the enchanter class is so rare that people simply dont know how to play with them, or they are too lazy to adjust their nuke and slash tactics. But as most people here seem to agree, grouping isnt the problem, its the raiding, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I also think that the spell choices that we have been given are unimaginative and dont make us as useful as we could be. We do have a few good spells, but most of what we have is a regurgitation of what we had 10 levels ago, with one unique spell thrown in as more of a sop than anything else, and again, none of it can be used in a raid. Maybe some day the devs will seriously look at the enchanter class and do some fixes, I know that those in my guild agree that the enchanter class has been left out in the cold and needs work, but I guess since there are only 400 of us worldwide the Devs just dont see the point. As others have said, I hope that some day they actually read what we say and do something about it.

Mandelbro · 03-21-2006, 10:21 PM

Darkmage666 wrote:I have been in dozens of groups enchanters on my server are almost extinct i have not been in a group with a single one, i have noticed though that most have quit playing there enchanter for bards or other classes.My guild is huge 300+ we dont have a single enchanter thats a main , i like coercer i thought yea there fun till i started getting close to 40 and found we dont scale that all other classes get better everything than we do and we have nothing thats unique.Our damage is subpar even clerics outdamage us, other classes mez better than us, regen power better than us, conj pets blow away anything we can have esp there tank pet.And most of all we are nothing more than power batteries when in epic raids i really want more than that our CC abilites just dont seem all that great besides with aoe classes CC is kinda useless slows down exping.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with a number of your points."Our damage is subpar even clerics outdamage us" - False. Show me a cleric doing more damage than you, and I'll show you a bad Coercer."other classes mez better than us" - Possibly true, but who cares when mez is really just an emergency spell in this game? This is the reason why you see so few enchanters. They're not "core" to the game. Remember the Holy Trinity of EQ1? EQ2 has it's trinity as well - Tank, Heal, DPS. Also, if you actually want to CC, enchanters have the largest arsenal of mez, stun, charm, fear than any class."regen power better than us" - False. Unless you're only counting a class' primary spell. Coercers generate more power consitantly than any other class. In some heavy power usage groups, an Illusionist will generate (save) more power, but that's situational."conj pets blow away anything we can have esp there tank pet" - I would hope this is the case. We're not a pet class, they are. Their pets should own anyone's pets. However, I would disagree with you based on having a Master I charm. A charmed caster will wipe the floor with a conjurer and his pet.I will agree with you on epics. :smileysad:

Tanatus · 03-22-2006, 12:03 AM

Mandelbrodt...

Couple things

a) On average cojurer/necro pet IS better but in none epic zones (most of em) I can find pets that put me in Tier 1 DPS far above any wizard or warlock and on par with necros

b) YES our petless damage IS subpar to any actively DPSing cleric.... In petless mode vs. single +++ group (not epic) target coercers DPS rarely goes above 150 (unless of course target have some sort of barrage attack SMILEY )

c) noone can mez better then coercer not even illusionist - that because its nature of our mez (can be casted in any condition as long as coercer not dead he can cast mez under stun, stifle, blur, pacify ect) toss here uninteruptible stun (yes you can cast Confoundment on the run)

d) power gereneration - well who cares actually.... between ease and beholder eye we scoring around 56power/tic and with Toughts line adding roughly 30 more on average as long as we are in combat. I hardly can name class that can do that much

Darkmage6 · 03-22-2006, 03:31 AM

Tanatus wrote:
Mandelbrodt...
Couple things
a) On average cojurer/necro pet IS better but in none epic zones (most of em) I can find pets that put me in Tier 1 DPS far above any wizard or warlock and on par with necros
b) YES our petless damage IS subpar to any actively DPSing cleric.... In petless mode vs. single +++ group (not epic) target coercers DPS rarely goes above 150 (unless of course target have some sort of barrage attack )
c) noone can mez better then coercer not even illusionist - that because its nature of our mez (can be casted in any condition as long as coercer not dead he can cast mez under stun, stifle, blur, pacify ect) toss here uninteruptible stun (yes you can cast Confoundment on the run)
d) power gereneration - well who cares actually.... between ease and beholder eye we scoring around 56power/tic and with Toughts line adding roughly 30 more on average as long as we are in combat. I hardly can name class that can do that much

Well for one thing my troubador does more power regen than thoughts thats why i changed.Besides i can regen power and hps, proc song 30% adds 200 dmg proc on top of any hostile spell/CA, add hps to party member and increase strength add 45% haste and make party run faster than a horse outside and make caster cast a spell as they were 4 lvl higher and lower fizzles.All at once, yes eye does more power regen but im doing more for the group than just being a power battery.besides i can track,stealthstab, safefall and i can hide/evade which is a lifesaver.I do had fun playing my coercer but after playing a bard i just can't go back to playing my coercer.

as for other classes mezzing better than us read this:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10642

Message Edited by Darkmage666 on 03-21-200602:43 PM

Mandelbro · 03-22-2006, 05:49 AM

Darkmage666 wrote:
I do had fun playing my coercer but after playing a bard i just can't go back to playing my coercer.
as for other classes mezzing better than us read this:
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10642

I won't argue that bards have more utility than enchanters. As for the thread you linked, that pertains to a possible bug, for certain mobs, in certain zones that are part of an expansion for the last 10 levels of a 70 level game. Did you mean that as proof that other classes can mez better than a Coercer?

03-13-2006, 11:24 PM	#32
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	Ghost form moonchild if you land it before they wax it, for one allthough i've never actually used him charm will cast, I'm ussually busy with CC on them. Just example __________________

03-14-2006, 05:21 AM	#34
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	you donnot get the will not work on target mesage on the ghosts... thats why i used them for an example because i had tested them recently (within last 30 days) LIke I said i didnt use it as a pet but dominate casted on it.. weather it is very resistful or not can't tell you.. but there is no mesage. Now this is a moot point since it wouldnt make that great of a pet anyway and in this circumstand dps buff and full conentration on epic mob is a better trade off than a heroic pet. But it was just an example. Now T6 is not the only conent out there. I can name tons of T5 stuff charmable because it was actually more practical to charm in those instances than to focus on main mob, whereas most fo the T6 stuff I've been to the dps of a charmed pet did not outweight the focus I loose as a pet handler/possible pet break and the dps i contribute or from my buff as well as the group buff. Now before it gets into an argument of what silly mob that shouldnt even be is charmable or not... Charm is our debatably unique ability but is is not what makes us special.. its far more complex than that. even the time taken to hit pet attack is the time lost on reactive dps with followthrough confoundment. I do not care to be pigeon holed as a pet handler. While charm gives me great power it is not the limit to my ability. On most raids I am second on the hate list.. and that can't be blamed by spell whip anymore... I am busy from inc pull to Mob falling with my abilities. When i chose to charm its because it offers a leverage or benifit over my other abilities I am passing up to do so, not just because I need to show a pressence of DPS superiority. I know I am contributing when the tank drops and the mob has me for a split second before the backup gets rescue. I know I am a good coercer because I have educated my guild in what we can do and how to employ me best. I believe we are about controll.. we controll the croud the mob the situation even our charm is a control ability not a summoned pet handling routine charecteristic(not to downplaye TRUE pet focused classes). Yes I have great DPS with a pet but I am often 2nd or 3rd on the parser in groups without a pet. This does not mean a coercer is overpowered and whip out the nerf bat I work very hard to time my reactives for maximum damage time and refresh rates along with my agro.. It might be from my scout time but I can't waste a lot of time manuveing the pet if its not more benificial to do so over the time I loose on my reactives cycle. Now if it is your desire to see more charm content then by all means push for it.. but it is not allways the best choice JUST because we can. __________________

03-14-2006, 12:33 PM	#36
Lleinen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 368	Flipmode wrote: I charmed a frog gardner in Court of Alafaz...so thats one Tried that, epic, cant do it anymore. Seems in the newer raid zones (KoS) there are actually heroic charmable mobs placed in the zones randomly, which I like, because now I can charm and actually pay attention on raids. Also, didnt read OP and a lot of the posts, because they're so da*mn long, but I think the problem is in raids we COULD, if we wanted, just sit back and click maybe 1 or 2 buttons an entire fight and it would still come to the good conclusion (aka mob dies). We are buff [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es...and not even that, only our aggro buff! Usually its a waste to put us in melee groups because other classes can fit in there to give them procs and stuff, so I dont think our DPS line is utilized unless we are soloing. But yah...I am really good at my chanter. I have done some amazing crap (because of skill) and its awsome...but when it comes to raids....we fall on our face and thats the problem.

03-14-2006, 12:58 PM	#37
Jazzmaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	Lleinen wrote: so I dont think our DPS line is utilized unless we are soloing. Sell me some of the crack your smoking. Thanks. __________________ Calibix 70 Coercer/60 Jeweler Zugmort 62 Bruiser Dissolution.Nektulos I am heaven sent. Don't you dare forget.

03-14-2006, 01:20 PM	#38
Flipmode Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	Lleinen wrote: Flipmode wrote: I charmed a frog gardner in Court of Alafaz...so thats one Tried that, epic, cant do it anymore. Seems in the newer raid zones (KoS) there are actually heroic charmable mobs placed in the zones randomly, which I like, because now I can charm and actually pay attention on raids. Also, didnt read OP and a lot of the posts, because they're so da*mn long, but I think the problem is in raids we COULD, if we wanted, just sit back and click maybe 1 or 2 buttons an entire fight and it would still come to the good conclusion (aka mob dies). We are buff [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es...and not even that, only our aggro buff! Usually its a waste to put us in melee groups because other classes can fit in there to give them procs and stuff, so I dont think our DPS line is utilized unless we are soloing. But yah...I am really good at my chanter. I have done some amazing crap (because of skill) and its awsome...but when it comes to raids....we fall on our face and thats the problem. Must not have tried recently...just did it yesterday. If its mezzable, its usually stunable and charmable too.

03-13-2006, 11:18 PM	#31
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Aranieq please enlight me in which raiding instance you actually was able charm trash mob.... Because NONE of T6 raiding instance have any charmable mobs save 1 - LJ

03-14-2006, 01:13 AM	#33
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	They are mezable not charmable .... Not a single mob in courts suceptible to charm ... trust me lol I tried every single of em same goes for gates, same goes for PPtR, never been in PoS but I can safely assume it same.... The second raid place where you actually can deliver charmed pet is raiding area of SC but the only way to have charmed pet is bring it with you from no raiding area

03-14-2006, 08:07 AM	#35
Flipmode Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	I charmed a frog gardner in Court of Alafaz...so thats one

03-14-2006, 09:19 PM	#39
Mandelbro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 235	Flipmode wrote: Must not have tried recently...just did it yesterday. If its mezzable, its usually stunable and charmable too. Really? I haven't found that to be the case. Granted, if something is not mezzable, then it's very very likely to not be charmable either. However just because something is mezzable doesn't mean it can be charmed, in my experience.

03-14-2006, 09:40 PM	#40
Flipmode Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	Mandelbrodt wrote: Flipmode wrote: Must not have tried recently...just did it yesterday. If its mezzable, its usually stunable and charmable too. Really? I haven't found that to be the case. Granted, if something is not mezzable, then it's very very likely to not be charmable either. However just because something is mezzable doesn't mean it can be charmed, in my experience. Try it if you dont believe me. Co to courts and charm a gardner. The mezzable rule is a general rule and is usually true 9 of 10 times. Ill take a Screenshot of me with my pet next time we go there.

03-15-2006, 12:48 AM	#41
Mandelbro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 235	Whoa there. I'm not calling you a liar. Chill out a bit. I'm just cautioning that your statement should not be taken as a rule.

03-15-2006, 02:59 AM	#42
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Tried resently (about week ago) - nope its NOT charmable with Master 1 Dominate. Yes it WAS mezabe, NO its wasn't charmable.... (unless something been changed in last 2 week) TONE monsters in T6 are mezable heck most EpicX2 and EpicX4 are mezable AND stunable .... but not charmable Speaking about T5 (data about 2 months old thou) SOTL - nothing charmable MotM - nothing charmable Drayek Charmber - nothing charmable King Zalak - nothing charmable - lol not even pariarth's Arlich Udalan - nothing charmable - lol not even chaos elementals So what again was TONE charmable content within T5 raiding? Message Edited by Tanatus on 03-14-200605:00 PM

03-16-2006, 05:30 AM	#43
Spellz Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Osswald wrote: Aranieq wrote: I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it. Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there. I would say that any enchanter that is a good player has felt this and desires it. I know when you player with players that play their classes as well as good enchanters you would find people who can push the limits to high end content as opposed to people who think they should be entitled to do it by virtue of gracing us with their presense. We are a solid class for people who can understand the class and play it well. Groups and Soloing. Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here. I like the use of the words tricky and complicated. I did like it when you could cast all the reactives you had and if they proced you had to worry about agro. So you had to produce a stradegy and not over do it. I don't like the fact that people that can't control over excessive button pushing decide the fate of a class rather than ones who play it well. I love being a coercer and I find it to be a challenging and rewarding class. If a few changes were made in the raiding department I really believe we got something going here. And a clearification on what possesion is good for wouldn't hurt me either. Message Edited by Osswald on 03-11-200604:46 PM i agree. The coercer is good as it is, nice and tricky that it actually feels worthwhile mastering it. If we get the "much needed DPS changes" that some ppl are whining that they want, we'd just become some weird Conj/Wizard hybrid.It is fine as it is, the only change i really thought was nessicary they are adressing. the new "when charm runs out, it will graphicly show you", there is a difference between "the excitment of not knowing when it will run out" and not knowing that it has run out until you are at 1/2 health.

03-18-2006, 07:15 AM	#44
Darkmage6 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 50	On my server there are so few coercers there almost extinct besides coercers are horribly underpowered compared to conj's i have seen many times with my own 2 eyes lvl 42 conj soloing 3 lvl 47's at once.Play a coercer then play a conj you will see we are sooo underpowered its not funny.

03-18-2006, 10:17 PM	#45
Thro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 21	Darkmage666 wrote:On my server there are so few coercers there almost extinct besides coercers are horribly underpowered compared to conj's i have seen many times with my own 2 eyes lvl 42 conj soloing 3 lvl 47's at once.Play a coercer then play a conj you will see we are sooo underpowered its not funny. There is nothing a conj can solo that my coercer can't solo . . . period. Coercers are a great class. The only problem I currently have with the class is the issue of our powers being negated against certain mobs (e.g., epics) and the lack of charmable mobs in epic zones. Agreed with the comments from various posters here: the last thing I personally want to see are "fixes" to make this already amazing class just another button mashing FoTM.

03-19-2006, 12:38 AM	#46
Vreck Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denmark Posts: 33	They should add some mobs to every raid zone, that are not epics, to be charmed by us. Mobs that are not in any way needed to clear during events, that aren't interfering with anything, just mobs that are available to charm.

03-19-2006, 02:31 AM	#47
Signal9 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 583	Vreck wrote:They should add some mobs to every raid zone, that are not epics, to be charmed by us. Mobs that are not in any way needed to clear during events, that aren't interfering with anything, just mobs that are available to charm. This is exactly how zones were laid out in EQ1. There were only one or two mobs in the zone that would qualify for the best charm (Dire Charm) up at a time. Enchanters would regularly warn the group off of killing these mobs so that they could use them. __________________

03-19-2006, 09:11 AM	#48
Vreck Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denmark Posts: 33	Yes, I had EQ1 in mind when I wrote it, but since this practically isn't EQ1 at all, I wouldn't mention it. Still, it's a good idea, if I may say so. We don't have Dire Charm like in EQ1, so it's not as safe. And everything that can AE in a raid for a good deal of damage will probably off the pet in one hit. I think it would probably make a lot of coercers more satisfied, by giving them something to do.

03-20-2006, 12:38 AM	#49
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Well dire charm was for wusses lol real chanters used real pet .....

03-20-2006, 01:27 AM	#50
Vreck Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denmark Posts: 33	As I said, this wasn't meant to be a discussion on EQ1. This was just an idea "borrowed" from it. Dire Charm is a thing of another game, we get to have a charm that break whenever you least expect it. Still, it's not the issue here.

03-20-2006, 05:23 PM	#51
Signal9 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 583	Tanatus wrote: Well dire charm was for wusses lol real chanters used real pet ..... True, Tan, but in essence, we have a charmed mob the strength of a standard "dire charm" pet. It's quite a bit below any other mob in the zone. We just don't have the surety that the mob will be charmed until death. __________________

03-21-2006, 02:35 AM	#52
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Well yes and no Power of our pets directly linked to quality of our charm and our lvl ....

03-21-2006, 07:34 PM	#53
Darkmage6 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 50	I have been in dozens of groups enchanters on my server are almost extinct i have not been in a group with a single one, i have noticed though that most have quit playing there enchanter for bards or other classes.My guild is huge 300+ we dont have a single enchanter thats a main , i like coercer i thought yea there fun till i started getting close to 40 and found we dont scale that all other classes get better everything than we do and we have nothing thats unique.Our damage is subpar even clerics outdamage us, other classes mez better than us, regen power better than us, conj pets blow away anything we can have esp there tank pet.And most of all we are nothing more than power batteries when in epic raids i really want more than that our CC abilites just dont seem all that great besides with aoe classes CC is kinda useless slows down exping.

03-21-2006, 09:09 PM	#54
Rominian Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 58	I agree with most here, coercers do need to be able to have some raid abillty other than as a battery. I hear talk about the Amnesia spell being useful, which is true, but last time I looked Amnesia wasnt supposed to be effective against epics, so its either not working as described or its a bug. I will say that last night we raided in Temple of Scale, and I was in the MT group for a while, so I had my agro buff on the MT. They took me out of the group for a little while, but then found that the wizards, conjurors and necros were dying because they were pulling agro, and yes, they do know how to play =P. They put me back with the MT and low and behold, it stopped happening. That made me feel useful, but many times raid leaders dont realize what we can do, so we get stuck in the battery role rather than used in the best place. I see our heal crit AA as decent, the ONLY one that I feel is of real use (yes I am severely disappointed with our AA selections, its as if they didnt know what to give us), but other than that our AAs seem to be self only. Our spell haste AA would be nice, IF it could be applied to a group. As for the hate reduction AA, it can be useful, but ONLY if the target is targeting an enemy, otherwise its useless, so if I am at a raid and my healer gets agro, unless they are healing through the mob the AA goes out the window and wont help. I asked last night how many healers were healing through the mob, none were due to the setup. What I would like to see for an enchanter AA would be a self rune, but I doubt that will happen, I think we are stuck with what we have. Good luck out there.

03-21-2006, 09:19 PM	#55
Nerj Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	The Amnesia portion does work. What doesn't is the stun portion. So as soon as the spell hits, the MOB has YOU as number one on the hit list. __________________ Lockeye wrote: I've watched coercers who solo higher con heroics using 2 unbreakable roots while keeping 2 separate encounters locked down at the same time (no other class could pull off such a heroic feat). That is called Crowd Control. What Enchanter's are supposed to do.

03-21-2006, 09:52 PM	#56
Rominian Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 58	Youre right Nerjin, I just looked at that again, thanks for pointing that out. I didnt realize that there were 3 pages of this, so I went and read everything to see what you all think. I will be honest, I had a cleric main that I leveled to 50, then made a coercer because I wanted to be able to charm things, it was what made the class unique and gave me the patience to tolerate living in Freeport. I have not been able to put my coercer down since I started her, I have tried a few times to go back and level my cleric, but I find it to be boring in the extreme. Coercer for me is an extremely fun and challenging class to play, and I know that me being in a group has made the difference in being able to take down mobs. Most grouping as an enchanter class means that I am a battery, I can mez things, but it is rarely really needed, and I find that most groups just break them anyway, though I have a hotbutton saying which targets are mezzed. I Blame this mostly on the fact that the enchanter class is so rare that people simply dont know how to play with them, or they are too lazy to adjust their nuke and slash tactics. But as most people here seem to agree, grouping isnt the problem, its the raiding, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I also think that the spell choices that we have been given are unimaginative and dont make us as useful as we could be. We do have a few good spells, but most of what we have is a regurgitation of what we had 10 levels ago, with one unique spell thrown in as more of a sop than anything else, and again, none of it can be used in a raid. Maybe some day the devs will seriously look at the enchanter class and do some fixes, I know that those in my guild agree that the enchanter class has been left out in the cold and needs work, but I guess since there are only 400 of us worldwide the Devs just dont see the point. As others have said, I hope that some day they actually read what we say and do something about it.

03-21-2006, 10:21 PM	#57
Mandelbro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 235	Darkmage666 wrote:I have been in dozens of groups enchanters on my server are almost extinct i have not been in a group with a single one, i have noticed though that most have quit playing there enchanter for bards or other classes.My guild is huge 300+ we dont have a single enchanter thats a main , i like coercer i thought yea there fun till i started getting close to 40 and found we dont scale that all other classes get better everything than we do and we have nothing thats unique.Our damage is subpar even clerics outdamage us, other classes mez better than us, regen power better than us, conj pets blow away anything we can have esp there tank pet.And most of all we are nothing more than power batteries when in epic raids i really want more than that our CC abilites just dont seem all that great besides with aoe classes CC is kinda useless slows down exping. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with a number of your points."Our damage is subpar even clerics outdamage us" - False. Show me a cleric doing more damage than you, and I'll show you a bad Coercer."other classes mez better than us" - Possibly true, but who cares when mez is really just an emergency spell in this game? This is the reason why you see so few enchanters. They're not "core" to the game. Remember the Holy Trinity of EQ1? EQ2 has it's trinity as well - Tank, Heal, DPS. Also, if you actually want to CC, enchanters have the largest arsenal of mez, stun, charm, fear than any class."regen power better than us" - False. Unless you're only counting a class' primary spell. Coercers generate more power consitantly than any other class. In some heavy power usage groups, an Illusionist will generate (save) more power, but that's situational."conj pets blow away anything we can have esp there tank pet" - I would hope this is the case. We're not a pet class, they are. Their pets should own anyone's pets. However, I would disagree with you based on having a Master I charm. A charmed caster will wipe the floor with a conjurer and his pet.I will agree with you on epics. :smileysad:

03-22-2006, 12:03 AM	#58
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Mandelbrodt... Couple things a) On average cojurer/necro pet IS better but in none epic zones (most of em) I can find pets that put me in Tier 1 DPS far above any wizard or warlock and on par with necros b) YES our petless damage IS subpar to any actively DPSing cleric.... In petless mode vs. single +++ group (not epic) target coercers DPS rarely goes above 150 (unless of course target have some sort of barrage attack ) c) noone can mez better then coercer not even illusionist - that because its nature of our mez (can be casted in any condition as long as coercer not dead he can cast mez under stun, stifle, blur, pacify ect) toss here uninteruptible stun (yes you can cast Confoundment on the run) d) power gereneration - well who cares actually.... between ease and beholder eye we scoring around 56power/tic and with Toughts line adding roughly 30 more on average as long as we are in combat. I hardly can name class that can do that much

03-22-2006, 03:31 AM	#59
Darkmage6 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 50	Tanatus wrote: Mandelbrodt... Couple things a) On average cojurer/necro pet IS better but in none epic zones (most of em) I can find pets that put me in Tier 1 DPS far above any wizard or warlock and on par with necros b) YES our petless damage IS subpar to any actively DPSing cleric.... In petless mode vs. single +++ group (not epic) target coercers DPS rarely goes above 150 (unless of course target have some sort of barrage attack ) c) noone can mez better then coercer not even illusionist - that because its nature of our mez (can be casted in any condition as long as coercer not dead he can cast mez under stun, stifle, blur, pacify ect) toss here uninteruptible stun (yes you can cast Confoundment on the run) d) power gereneration - well who cares actually.... between ease and beholder eye we scoring around 56power/tic and with Toughts line adding roughly 30 more on average as long as we are in combat. I hardly can name class that can do that much Well for one thing my troubador does more power regen than thoughts thats why i changed.Besides i can regen power and hps, proc song 30% adds 200 dmg proc on top of any hostile spell/CA, add hps to party member and increase strength add 45% haste and make party run faster than a horse outside and make caster cast a spell as they were 4 lvl higher and lower fizzles.All at once, yes eye does more power regen but im doing more for the group than just being a power battery.besides i can track,stealthstab, safefall and i can hide/evade which is a lifesaver.I do had fun playing my coercer but after playing a bard i just can't go back to playing my coercer. as for other classes mezzing better than us read this: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10642 Message Edited by Darkmage666 on 03-21-200602:43 PM

03-22-2006, 05:49 AM	#60
Mandelbro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 235	Darkmage666 wrote: I do had fun playing my coercer but after playing a bard i just can't go back to playing my coercer. as for other classes mezzing better than us read this: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10642 I won't argue that bards have more utility than enchanters. As for the thread you linked, that pertains to a possible bug, for certain mobs, in certain zones that are part of an expansion for the last 10 levels of a 70 level game. Did you mean that as proof that other classes can mez better than a Coercer?