PvP Coercers

[Auntee]

Just a brief note to say that I've been playing a Coercer in the PvP beta for awhile now and it's pretty much what you'd expect.  We can be a tide-turning force in a group, we fall down much too easily, and we'll only be as good as our pets. 

 

• As things stand right now, my opinion is that Rangers and Conjurors are overpowered and pose a real threat to all classes, and not just Coercers. 
• Our reactives are quite effective in a PvP environment.  I was particularly pleased to see Tyrranical Mind trigger for over 500 damage at level 28 (Adept I). 
• Charm has been significantly modified.  It is only good for a few seconds against another player, suggesting that the dev's don't intend for us to use charm directly on other PCs, but instead to use it on NPCs who'll then be sent to attack the PCs.  There's still little trifling bugs with charm that will hopefully be ironed out prior to the live release.
• Our drains are more effective on PCs than NPCs.  That's good, I suppose. 
• In all humility, I like the fact that I, as a Coercer, was frequently seen as a threat and made a primary target

 

I've never PvP'd so the experience has been eye-opening.  Honestly, though, it's been very fun and I encourage those of you with an interest to give it a try.  I've had a hard time logging on to the blue server because I've had so much fun with PvP. 

 

Gramma, 57 Coercer, Innocrushthulebone.

 

 

[Evariste]

When you fight linked mobs, you begin to kill the weakest adds and you finish with the boss..

I guess you are primary target since you are the easiest to down... Mages are always the firsts to die.

[Lenda]

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Cytomel wrote:

Just a brief note to say that I've been playing a Coercer in the PvP beta for awhile now and it's pretty much what you'd expect.  We can be a tide-turning force in a group, we fall down much too easily, and we'll only be as good as our pets. 

 

• As things stand right now, my opinion is that Rangers and Conjurors are overpowered and pose a real threat to all classes, and not just Coercers. 
• Our reactives are quite effective in a PvP environment.  I was particularly pleased to see Tyrranical Mind trigger for over 500 damage at level 28 (Adept I). 
• Charm has been significantly modified.  It is only good for a few seconds against another player, suggesting that the dev's don't intend for us to use charm directly on other PCs, but instead to use it on NPCs who'll then be sent to attack the PCs.  There's still little trifling bugs with charm that will hopefully be ironed out prior to the live release.
• Our drains are more effective on PCs than NPCs.  That's good, I suppose. 
• In all humility, I like the fact that I, as a Coercer, was frequently seen as a threat and made a primary target

I've never PvP'd so the experience has been eye-opening.  Honestly, though, it's been very fun and I encourage those of you with an interest to give it a try.  I've had a hard time logging on to the blue server because I've had so much fun with PvP. 

Gramma, 57 Coercer, Innocrushthulebone.

---

Glad you're having fun in PvP, Cytomel.  I'd just like to add a few comments based on my own experience.

Coercers charm, as you said, is useless against a PC because of high resists and a duration of only a few seconds.  And, of course, charming an NPC for your pet is still dependent on your being able to actually find an effective NPC pet and then keeping him charmed long enough to actually get some use out of him.  So, in other words, charm is pretty much not going to be used much on the PvP server.  A shame, really. 

Our mezzes have also been drastically reduced in duration when used against a player.  This is as intended by the devs as you can see the spell duration differences listed for PvP and PvE when examining the spell.  Again, it's an intended mechanic not just an accident caused by some random resists.  Another shame, IMHO.

And unfortunately our stuns are pretty much rendered moot by high PC resists.  Coercers sure aren't the 'stunning' class they used to be.  At least three or four other classes have better stuns than we do.  Like bruisers, of all things.  Oh, well...

Oh, and Cytomel, the reason the other players were trying to kill you first wasn't because you were seen as such a huge threat.  It was because you were quite correctly seen as a quick, easy, defenseless kill. 

In my opinion, you're quite correct in your statement that 'playing a Coercer in the PvP beta is pretty much what you'd expect'.  It wasn't really any surprise to me to find that we were a gimped, defenseless and ineffective class. 

Unless your dreams have always centered around seeing your purpose in life as being a mana buffer, I'd just give it up and roll a conjuror, if I were you.

[Mirt]

You all should post this on the beta boards, try to help out Coercers, if no one tells the devs, they wont fix it.

[Tanatus]

My main concern is piercing ability of our spells

-no matter how you slice or dice if you take most of the priest classes decently geared or/and any melee from raiding guild - thats it you done - not a single spell going to land - no mez, no stun, no stifle - total immunity to magic attacks.

My second concern not only as coercer but rather as a representative of mages is casting time and interupts

 - practically every single CA can be casted on a move - any spell casting requied immobility from casters toss here fact that execution CA requied 0.2-0.5s in most of the cases while absolute majority offensive spells have casting time 3.0-4.0s ....you have major disbalance for PvP here

Fixing coercer for PvP is fairly easy just reduce casting time on Mezes down to 0.2-0.5s and for stuns to 1-1.5s and grant to one of the mezes LURE quality and we good

[Mandelbro]

Resists have always been a gimping factor for casters in EQ PvP.  I played a wizard on Tallon Zek for some time, and lures were pretty much the only way to hit PC's.  That sucked, because of the horrible casting times on them.Casters used to be PvP gods, but then they were considered too overpowered, so all damage and debuff spells did 66% of the listed effectiveness vs. a PC.  That balanced things for a while, but then more and more uber resist gear was being pumped into the game, and the spell nerf was not removed.  A melee class could laugh in the face of a caster while they pummelled them into submission, or just wait for the caster to go OOM and have their way with you.  Awesome.My argument was always that if you add in large resist gear, you need to add in large avoidance gear as well.  However, any PvP balancing argument would classicly cause massive unbalance to the PvE game, which is unacceptable.Hence, I'll be playing a Monk in PvP on EQ2.See you then

[Lenda]

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Mirt wrote:You all should post this on the beta boards, try to help out Coercers, if no one tells the devs, they wont fix it.

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Hahahahaha!  Thanks, you just made my day!  Hehehehehe....  :smileyvery-happy:

[Auntee]

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Mirt wrote:You all should post this on the beta boards, try to help out Coercers, if no one tells the devs, they wont fix it.

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/feedback sent, Beta forum posts posted.

[Auntee]

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Tanatus wrote:

My second concern not only as coercer but rather as a representative of mages is casting time and interupts

---

It's very difficult to complete a three-second cast in PvP so far.  Your ability to approach undetected (via invis) is your way around that.  When locking down targets, it's almost a requirement to mez prior to stunning or rooting, because the faster cast time allows you to stop a running target long enough to root/stun/damage.  Interrupts have been difficult to work through.

Bottom line, if you're being attacked, you're going to have a rough time of it, as your defenses and your time to respond is limited.  Stay close to your taunting tank and the enemy won't be able to keep you as a target.  Make good use of Blink and Reek of Terror (yes, it's ACTUALLY on my spell bar).

 

---

Fixing coercer for PvP is fairly easy just reduce casting time on Mezes down to 0.2-0.5s and for stuns to 1-1.5s and grant to one of the mezes LURE quality and we good

---

Those are great fixes.  But Lendal's comments aside, we're already effective at locking down targets with Adept I spells to the point where stuns are a major beef of some of the other classes.  With Master level spells and the increased chance of sticking, I expect that the dev's will tell us that we already have enough tools to do the job without adjusting cast time and resistance.  There's still testing to be done.  We'll see how it plays out.

 

Gramma!

[Lenda]

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Cytomel wrote:

Those are great fixes.  But Lendal's comments aside, we're already effective at locking down targets with Adept I spells to the point where stuns are a major beef of some of the other classes.  With Master level spells and the increased chance of sticking, I expect that the dev's will tell us that we already have enough tools to do the job without adjusting cast time and resistance.  There's still testing to be done.  We'll see how it plays out.

Gramma!

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Cytomel, much of the stuff you post is not even internally consistant within your own post, let alone accurate.  How can you say that the fixes he mentioned are 'great' and in the next breath say that they aren't needed?

And none of the other classes are beefing about coercer stuns.  They're beefing about bruiser's stuns, sure.  But nobody even notices coercers.  We're just not considered capable enough to be even interesting let alone a threat.  Are you sure you're playing the same game as the rest of us?

Plus it's totally unrealistic to say that our tools at Master level will be sufficient to do our job.  How many coercers do you expect will actually be able to get Master level spells for stuns, reactives and mezzes?  Adept III, maybe.  But Master?  Good luck.

It's these absurd comments from you through your rose colored glasses, from whatever planet you're on, that will keep our very real problems from getting any attention at all from the devs. 

Thanks for nothing!

 

[Auntee]

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Lendal4 wrote:

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Cytomel wrote:

Those are great fixes.  But Lendal's comments aside, we're already effective at locking down targets with Adept I spells to the point where stuns are a major beef of some of the other classes.  With Master level spells and the increased chance of sticking, I expect that the dev's will tell us that we already have enough tools to do the job without adjusting cast time and resistance.  There's still testing to be done.  We'll see how it plays out.

Gramma!

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Cytomel, much of the stuff you post is not even internally consistant within your own post, let alone accurate.  How can you say that the fixes he mentioned are 'great' and in the next breath say that they aren't needed?

---

I can say it because I agree that they'd be helpful.  However, I'm realistic enough to realize that a major adjustment in casting time and spell resistance isn't terribly likely.  I think the dev's will see that we can lock down a PC for longer than any other class and say that we're okay.  How is that inconsistent?

 

---

And none of the other classes are beefing about coercer stuns.  They're beefing about bruiser's stuns, sure.  But nobody even notices coercers.  We're just not considered capable enough to be even interesting let alone a threat.  Are you sure you're playing the same game as the rest of us?

---

Yes, the complaints are mostly about melee stuns and roots.  I've read the forums too.

First off, I don't expect that those who are having a problem with CC will always know who's stunning them.  Second, their opinion of the matter doesn't affect the effectiveness of a Coercer's CC anyway.  The fact of the matter is that Coercer stuns ARE working (whether the stunned know it or not) and other players are complaining about the amount of CC in PvP now. 

And Coercers are very capable.  Not without weakness, but, similarly, not without strength.  I am playing the same game as you, though I suspect I'm playing it in a different manner, based on your comments in the past.  Just as there are those who say Coercers are terribly handicapped on the blue servers there are those who will maintain that we are similarly gimped on the PvP servers.  I heartily disagree based on my experiences both on Innothule and in the beta test.

 

---

Plus it's totally unrealistic to say that our tools at Master level will be sufficient to do our job.  How many coercers do you expect will actually be able to get Master level spells for stuns, reactives and mezzes?  Adept III, maybe.  But Master?  Good luck.

---

I don't think it's unrealistic at all.  On my home server, I've got Master level spells for all but three of the spells on my hotbars.  Master availability will depend solely on the PvP population.  I do know, however, that I have a much better chance of getting a Master now than when I rolled my Coercer a year ago. 

I would hope that if resists become a huge problem that it will be adjusted like everything else in the game.  You know as well as anyone that, while change may be slow in Norrath, it usually comes.

 

---

It's these absurd comments from you through your rose colored glasses, from whatever planet you're on, that will keep our very real problems from getting any attention at all from the devs. 

---

You can assail my credibility all you want--it's a habit of yours established many posts ago--but I will not start dumbing down my comments to fit your perspective.  I've not stated anything on these forums that I will not stand behind. 

If you think we've got problems, why don't you take the time to put them out there for us to see?  All I've read from you is that nothing works and Coercer's are a worthless class.   I see whining about how our spell durations have been cut--like we're going to be given power to charm a PC for 20 minutes or mez one for 45 seconds--and how we can't cast on the run. 

Please spend a little more time contributing to the process and less time being rude.  We'll all be better off.

 

Gramma/Cyto!

[Lenda]

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Cytomel wrote:

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Lendal4 wrote:

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Cytomel wrote:

Those are great fixes.  But Lendal's comments aside, we're already effective at locking down targets with Adept I spells to the point where stuns are a major beef of some of the other classes.  With Master level spells and the increased chance of sticking, I expect that the dev's will tell us that we already have enough tools to do the job without adjusting cast time and resistance.  There's still testing to be done.  We'll see how it plays out.

Gramma!

---

Cytomel, much of the stuff you post is not even internally consistant within your own post, let alone accurate.  How can you say that the fixes he mentioned are 'great' and in the next breath say that they aren't needed?

---

I can say it because I agree that they'd be helpful.  However, I'm realistic enough to realize that a major adjustment in casting time and spell resistance isn't terribly likely.  I think the dev's will see that we can lock down a PC for longer than any other class and say that we're okay.  How is that inconsistent?

 

---

And none of the other classes are beefing about coercer stuns.  They're beefing about bruiser's stuns, sure.  But nobody even notices coercers.  We're just not considered capable enough to be even interesting let alone a threat.  Are you sure you're playing the same game as the rest of us?

---

Yes, the complaints are mostly about melee stuns and roots.  I've read the forums too.

First off, I don't expect that those who are having a problem with CC will always know who's stunning them.  Second, their opinion of the matter doesn't affect the effectiveness of a Coercer's CC anyway.  The fact of the matter is that Coercer stuns ARE working (whether the stunned know it or not) and other players are complaining about the amount of CC in PvP now. 

And Coercers are very capable.  Not without weakness, but, similarly, not without strength.  I am playing the same game as you, though I suspect I'm playing it in a different manner, based on your comments in the past.  Just as there are those who say Coercers are terribly handicapped on the blue servers there are those who will maintain that we are similarly gimped on the PvP servers.  I heartily disagree based on my experiences both on Innothule and in the beta test.

 

---

Plus it's totally unrealistic to say that our tools at Master level will be sufficient to do our job.  How many coercers do you expect will actually be able to get Master level spells for stuns, reactives and mezzes?  Adept III, maybe.  But Master?  Good luck.

---

I don't think it's unrealistic at all.  On my home server, I've got Master level spells for all but three of the spells on my hotbars.  Master availability will depend solely on the PvP population.  I do know, however, that I have a much better chance of getting a Master now than when I rolled my Coercer a year ago. 

I would hope that if resists become a huge problem that it will be adjusted like everything else in the game.  You know as well as anyone that, while change may be slow in Norrath, it usually comes.

 

---

It's these absurd comments from you through your rose colored glasses, from whatever planet you're on, that will keep our very real problems from getting any attention at all from the devs. 

---

You can assail my credibility all you want--it's a habit of yours established many posts ago--but I will not start dumbing down my comments to fit your perspective.  I've not stated anything on these forums that I will not stand behind. 

If you think we've got problems, why don't you take the time to put them out there for us to see?  All I've read from you is that nothing works and Coercer's are a worthless class.   I see whining about how our spell durations have been cut--like we're going to be given power to charm a PC for 20 minutes or mez one for 45 seconds--and how we can't cast on the run. 

Please spend a little more time contributing to the process and less time being rude.  We'll all be better off.

 

Gramma/Cyto!

---

Cytomel, your comments are incredulous.  That's why I assail them.  It's not a matter of simply playing the same game differently.  The statements you make aren't correct and they will be harmful to the coercer class in the long run. 

I'm not so naive as to think that your comments will actually influence the devs much. But nevertheless your comments are very annoying falling on the ears of coercers who feel that they need all the help they can get from the devs just to stay above water.

You seem determined not to say anything negative no matter what.  And you think your polly anna attitude is contributing to the process?  No it isn't.  You're simply making misleading and incorrect statements.  How is that going to help anyone?

You say that we can lock down a PC longer than any other class.  That just isn't correct.  It's wrong.  Bruisers can lock down a PC much longer than we can and they can do huge damage in the process.  We can't.  Necromancer roots, for heavens sake,  can lock down a PC much longer than we can.  So, yeah.  You're just wrong.  And yet you ramble on with your drivel about:

"I would hope that if resists become a huge problem that it will be adjusted like everything else in the game.  You know as well as anyone that, while change may be slow in Norrath, it usually comes."

Resists are already a huge problem for coercers.  Two resists and you're dead.  Doesn't matter what other class you're fighting.  Two resists and you're dead.  And you say 'If it becomes a problem...".  You're totally off the wall with statements like that.

And don't even start with stuff like "change may be slow in Norrath...".  Do you remember when shamans were horribly gimped by their wards not taking mitigation into account?  It took 10 months to get that fixed and when they finally did, the fix incorrectly moved 100% of the agro from the tanks to the shamans and they had to take another month to fix it again so that shamans weren't commiting suicide by applying a ward to their tanks.

And this is the environment that you're so eager to toss the coercer class and our problems into.  We already have months and months of waiting patiently for our raid capability to be fixed.  Even after the devs have already said they agree it's not right and they will fix it, when they can.  So, yeah, change may be a little slow in Norrath, indeed.

So, Cytomel, face the fact that you and the other fanbois like you are doing real harm to the coercer class in EQ2.  And it's already one of the most unpopular classes in the game, if not the most unpopular.  Why do you think that is?  You think it's because only you and a few others really know the secrets of how to play a coercer?  Yeah, right...  Think again.  It's because the coercer class is weaker and less capable than other classes.

Your attitude is unrealistic and your statements are often simply wrong.  And you think you're being all noble, smug and self righteous by sucking it up and trying to gloss over all the things that are wrong with our class.  You can keep your head in the sand, if you want to.  But that doesn't make it any better for the rest of us.

So, again, thanks for nothing!

[Auntee]

Let's just get the good stuff out of the way:

• Cytomel, your comments are incredulous
• The statements you make aren't correct and they will be harmful to the coercer class in the long run
• your comments are very annoying
• You seem determined not to say anything negative no matter what
• your polly anna attitude...
• And yet you ramble on with your drivel
• You're just wrong
• You're totally off the wall
• you and the other fanbois like you are doing real harm to the coercer class in EQ2
• Your attitude is unrealistic
• your statements are often simply wrong
• And you think you're being all noble, smug and self righteous
• You can keep your head in the sand

Great job, Lendal4.  You caught me.  The jig is up.  I'll join in the whining.  But a couple of things first:

 

You wrote:

"...coercers ...feel that they need all the help they can get from the devs just to stay above water."

Other Coercers occasionally write differently.  Here are some comments from the first page of the Coercer forums:

"we were in Clefts/Throne room and our MT pulled about six mobs...I mezzed five of them, charmed one of them and then rezed the cleric...they were shocked by the Coercer Powa!  It's an awesome feeling and just adds to the enjoyment of playing Coercer."

"I had also some fun in LJ lair (and as usual I come on top of DPS list here lol)"

"I was 80% of the time in the top 10 for DPS.  Between 300 to 400 DPS, easy."

"Bottom line, I think all of our spells are quite useful and well worth using to the fullest.  Tweaking is still necessary here and there, but it's all in how you use them I guess."

 

"if you enjoy killing mobs in a much more subtle way than straight out dps via hard DoTs and DDs then yes a coercer is great"

 

"raiding aside we are an excellent class to play "

 

"I find a coercer can be invaluable due to our variety of skills"

 

"it highly depends on the encounter but usually i have a lot to do on raids "

 

"I think the coercer is a very good class, I love em, they're great"

 

"Coercer's = God's to the Heroic game."

 

Are the peeps who wrote the comments above fanbois, also?  Are they all wearing rose-colored glasses?  Or is it just me? 

I'm not posting with an agenda.  You seem to think that the sole point of the beta test is to make Coercers look so bad that the dev's will have to devote a bunch of attention to boosting our abilities to whatever level you've decided they should be at.  I don't see it that way.  I agreed to /feedback impressions of my experiences in the test and I am taking the time, as I have done repeatedly, to post some of my thoughts, inane as they may be at times, on the Coercer forums.  My posts have been no more or less than that.

I've not stated anywhere that Coercers are perfect, balanced, or otherwise.  I've made comments about specific things I've noted in PvP contests over the last few weeks.  Again, if your experience has been different, at least take the time to be specific so I and others have opportunity to learn from you.  But endless wailing and chest-beating doesn't accomplish anything. 

If it makes you happy, I'll say a few negative things for you:

• PvP is too tuned for 1v1 instead of 6v6.  Adjustments were made tonight, but I've not logged in to see the effects.  Coercers are at a disadvantage to a couple of classes in 1v1. 
• We still die way too fast. 
• Short-duration stun casting times are too high

I could probably do more, but I don't see the point.  The negatives are typically issues we've all dealt with in the past.  They're not going to magically go away in PvP. 

 

You wrote:

Bruisers can lock down a PC much longer than we can and they can do huge damage in the process.  We can't.  Necromancer roots, for heavens sake,  can lock down a PC much longer than we can.  So, yeah.  You're just wrong.

Are you sure?  Bruiser knockdowns and their [Removed for Content]-mez can keep a PvP target locked longer than my two mezzes, short-duration stun, long-duration stun, Fatal Hesitation, Beguile, and Ego Strike?  Necros can do the same?  How long does the Necro root last?  I'm anxious to know because if you're right, that's a real big deal. 

 

You Wrote:

Resists are already a huge problem for coercers.  Two resists and you're dead.  Doesn't matter what other class you're fighting.  Two resists and you're dead.

The only things that regularly kill me in PvP are Rangers and Conjurors--and that's whether they resist my spells or not.  Especially since switching to Adept I spells, I have not had an unusual problem with resists--though they can be frustrating at times.  Apparently your experience has been different.  But, for me, at least, resists don't typically stop me from doing what I want to do and when I get them it isn't a death sentence, unless I'm 1v1.

 

You wrote:

coercer class is weaker and less capable than other classes

Weaker than some other classes, undoubtedly.  I suspect you mean weaker than ALL classes, however. I disagree with your assessment and the arguments you use to come to that conclusion.  I'm reasonably sure that there are others on this board who feel the same way.

I'd suggest that, if you wish to turn this into a [Removed for Content] match, you should do it via PM.  I'd rather like this thread to stay on the specifics of PvP Coercers instead of how much of an idiot I am. 

 

Gramma/Cyto

 

Message Edited by Cytomel on 02-09-200611:00 PM

[Lenda]

Gosh, Cytomel.  I kind of feel guilty that you went to all that trouble to try and make me and my point of view about coercers look bad.  Especially since it was all for nothing and you failed miserably.

For every positive comment you can drege up from the forums, I can easily find 10 negative ones.  What does that prove, other than you have a lot of time on your hands?  Anyone reading the coercer forums for the last few months knows what the situation is with coercers.

I find it frustrating, as you can tell, that a minority of people playing coercers are content with the current status of the coercer class in EQ2.  I try to understand it but really it's difficult.

Coercers currently shine in a particular environment.  That being when in a reasonably balanced group fighting heroics that are blue or yellow to the group.  Coercers can contribute power, crowd control, damage and buffing/debuffing effectively in that situation.  And in that particular circumstance, when all goes well, everyone in the group is very impressed with how much we bring to a group. They'll often comment on how much of a difference we make.  Sort of as though they were a little surprised that we might be more than just a mana battery, which is probably how we got to fill the group slot in the first place.

And when that happens, and we get those wonderful compliments, we hold them close to our hearts and cherish them as we would any other rare precious thing.  Yes, indeed, cherish those moments because they only come in that particular situation.

You won't get those comments in other situations where there's a dirge, for example,  in the group with you.  They bring better buffs/debuffs and power regen about as good as yours to the group.  And if you have a wizard or two plus maybe a warlock they'll want to AOE rather than step delicately around your CC efforts. 

And rightly so.  In those situations, AOE is more efficient for the group than your oh so dramatic crowd control efforts.  So your particular gifts as a coercer aren't cherished or impressive in those situations at all.  Mostly just in the way, what with all the spamming in group chat with the cutesy mezz messages that everyone loves so much.

The point being that coercers can and do perform effectively in some few situations.  But rather poorly and ineffectively in others.  Most classes in EQ2 have characteristics that make them useful and desireable in most curcumstances not just some circumstances.  Assassins, wizards, warlocks, bruisers will always be wanted for the class contributions they bring to a group.  Coercers are only wanted when the group perception is that they either can't get another class, that they really wanted instead, or they have an empty slot and think 'ah why not invite the coercer and at least we'll get some power regen'. 

I want more than that for coercers.  I want us to be a desireable class in all situations.  I want our crowd control to be resisted less by non epic targets and also to work on epic targets, although maybe with increased resists.  I want our stuns to actually stun a mob for the alloted few seconds without breaking at the first little damage he gets. 

And for situations where our crowd control isn't desireable, I want to bring a more consistant damage buff capability to the group.  Right now with all our buffs up we can haste two group members.  Bard songs don't have that limitation.  I'd like to be able to group haste instead of single target haste, too.  And I want better debuffs than we get right now.  Our power drain capability doesn't make a noticable difference in most situations.  I think we should be able to do better than that.

None of these things are unreasonable.  None of them will make us overpowering in any situation.  But together they may help to make us as equally desireable as other classes are in groups and on raids.  That's not asking for anything special just that we be brought up to the level of effectiveness enjoyed by other classes.

But you and a few of the other fanbois throwing a party everytime you are actually able to look good in a group someplace isn't going to help our cause.  Stop celebrating the fact that you managed to do something useful the Tuesday before last and start realizing that right now you're the 'red headed step child of EQ2'.

[Tanatus]

Cytomel apperently I did not state my concerns very clear so you have answered on a bit different questions I have asked

a) Resistance and it IS major concern.... Believe you or not but I had my fair share dueling with coercer and with warlock. With all this nice gear from PoS, Court, Gate, FoL, PPtR it is not a big deal to bring your resistance well over 3K toss here wisdom bonus (500 wisdom = +1500 resist all). I can asure you most of my attack spell on warlock and all of my attack spell on coercer are Master 1 or Master 2 and then I say fight warden (who cannt self buff nor mental neither nox resistance) I cannt land 90-95% spells. I want to bring your attention specially on Intence Focus line - Master 1 quality spell in decription said that spell only 16% harder to resist while for most master 1 spell of other classes this number is 30% and in some cases is 40%. The only solutions I can see that wont disturb PvE yet affect PvP either set hard cap how much magic damage can gear absorb say for 60 vs 60 opponent cap could be 50% or/and make PvP effective resistance work on 33-50%. Personally I like hard cap better

b) Interupt spell casting time. Situation you are refer is valid only for ganking type of PvP - it not work even for team PvP (that why you always a target number 1) nor for dueling type PvP (which I like most of all). You refer that ppl complaining about amount CC in PvP ... I DO trust you but ppl who complaining about have in mind CC that can be made by MELEE  not by casters. Again reason for that simple.... If you ever dueled with any other mage but coercer you should know that every melee class have some sort 0.2-0.5s casting stun, stifle, pacify or interupt and in conjuction with casting time on CA 0.2-0.5s it garanty that you NEVER get any spell off no matter what unless you coercer and have mez that can be casted under any condition. And even then some classes can 1 shot-kill coercer (which I can live with). While I happy admit that invis IS valid tactic I want to point out fact that every dog and its puppy have see invis in PvP (since dreaded circlet of shadows and EQ1 ppl learn a lot ). Take my words on it - EVERYONE who will play hard core PvP WILL HAVE see invis and will have swapable resistance gear. In this treat was given NICE suggestion - Implement for casters (cloth only) "avoidance" gear - if melee can resist 90-95% magical attacks then casters should be able dodge 90-95% melee attacks right? Bumbing up that high avoidance will allow caster live with current casting timers and requiement of immobility.... Oh ya almost fogot let me explain why invis tactic wont work .... YES you can get close enouth to target in order to cast BUT as soon as you start casting animation invis will drop hence target will have 3-4s to run away or just put autoattack on instantly interupt any of your casting

At current game state not a single caster will have any chance vs. ANY melee (because of spell casting timers and interupts) nor vs. ANY priest (4.5K+ resistance broadband)

[Aoi]

Lendal,

 

I don't really understand why you are clearly attacking Cytomel and his views, especially considering I don't see one inkling of data to back up your assertions in your posts.

 

Why don't you take a queue from Tanatus and actually quantify your problems specifically instead of posting inflammatorry comments and anectdotal nonsense.  At least his posts actually have something I can take back to the game and verify myself.

 

Check this out....I actually agree with some of what you said, and some of what Cytomel said....amazing, considering  "it was all for nothing" and he "failed miserably" in his response.  FYI, you don't need Cytomel to make you look bad.....

 

Do you really think the devs are having these internal and ongoing debates about what classes need fixing and which don't, all based on posts pulled from the class forums?  Sure it may be considered, but your argument that someone like Cytomel's opinions are hurting our chances at getting love is weak at best.

 

Can we agree that Coercers are now A LOT better off than they were at release?  And if we agree on that, how do you justify that there were just as many people then who were happy about the state of coercers then as there are now?  I mean, if there was even ONE person posting on the forums that they were happy with their class then, we shouldn't have got any fixes according to your argument, right?

 

Cyene

[Lenda]

---

Aoine wrote:

Lendal,

 

I don't really understand why you are clearly attacking Cytomel and his views, especially considering I don't see one inkling of data to back up your assertions in your posts.

 

Why don't you take a queue from Tanatus and actually quantify your problems specifically instead of posting inflammatorry comments and anectdotal nonsense.  At least his posts actually have something I can take back to the game and verify myself.

 

Check this out....I actually agree with some of what you said, and some of what Cytomel said....amazing, considering  "it was all for nothing" and he "failed miserably" in his response.  FYI, you don't need Cytomel to make you look bad.....

 

Do you really think the devs are having these internal and ongoing debates about what classes need fixing and which don't, all based on posts pulled from the class forums?  Sure it may be considered, but your argument that someone like Cytomel's opinions are hurting our chances at getting love is weak at best.

 

Can we agree that Coercers are now A LOT better off than they were at release?  And if we agree on that, how do you justify that there were just as many people then who were happy about the state of coercers then as there are now?  I mean, if there was even ONE person posting on the forums that they were happy with their class then, we shouldn't have got any fixes according to your argument, right?

 

Cyene

---

Thanks for posting your opinions, Aoine.  But now I personally feel like I've already put enough energy into this debate and don't intend to go much further down this particular road.

If you thnk I was trying to start some sort of opinion poll or popularity contest here, think again.  I've made my own opinions and feelings clear and you may choose to accept or reject them as you wish.

I've now reached the point where I personally care even less what you may think than the devs do.  Of course, they're being paid to care.  I'm not.  So I suppose that's as it should be.

[Aoi]

"I've made my own opinions and feelings clear and you may choose to accept or reject them as you wish."

 

I think that's one of the points Cytomel was trying to make, glad we are all on the same page.

 

Cyene

[Tanatus]

Small derailing ....

Lets admit coercers now IS fun to play - and yes reason for that is ability to charm powerfull pets. There are still  problems - like raiding coercer except rare circumstances never do same DPS as necro or conjurer (god forbid lol) - altouth we supose to be in same damage tier.... but solo and grouping we are FINE. Most of classes had thier times of dust and glory - well some always had a glory (like brawlers, zerkers) and some eating dust more (coercers, illusionists). Atm I am playing my coercer over my warlock ... reason for that warlocks screwed big time - unless thier DPS double and hate production halved there is zero point play warlock nor for solo/group/PvP (coercer far far superior) nor for raid where coercer usually produce DPS rival to warlock

So my advice is - have several alts of various classes so you can always be among those who are flavor of the day....

[beev]

Coercer group PVP:

 

Coercers are not seen so much as a threat, but as an annoyance, and too much of an aid to other classes(if thats really a true threat)...AKA power regen. thats the rational for taking out the coercer, because its quick and easy.

 

Solo PVP:

 

Get one shotted by a ranger much?

 

Get your spells to land much against priests classes with over 400 wis? Be honest. Get your spells to land on toons with 4k mental much? And before anyone says anything about not everyone having 4k mental, it really doesnt maatter. At some point, everyone will. And where will we be then. Then theres also "cheats" like the manastone, and vessel of the fyr' un. Hows that mezz working now? I chose, for one of my last training ops, the master 2 mezz. It bounces like noones business against someone with 4k mental resists. Where's the ability to ignore that piercer that the assassin keeps sticking in a casters back, or the arrows that the ranger 1 or 2 shots casters with. PVP for coercers, and casters in general, is a joke, because of one simple reason.

 

Balance means everyone gets to equally resist (read:IGNORE) thier opponents attacks, and that balance does not currently exist. Not even a little.

 

Mark my words. PVP in eq2 will end up just like eq1. Weaponheads running around going after casters because its easy, and casters have little to no answer or equivalent, to resists. Only in eq2 its gonna be worse. Casters dont get a fast cast shadowstep, chanters dont get a real charm. In eq1, if you were mezzed, you sat there and did nothing till mezz broke. No CA/spell casting, or using of items. Mezzed really meant mezzed. In this game, bruisers can just shrug mezz and your roots,stuns, and stifles off, and kill you...IF they even land to begin with in thier pvp gimped versions. Any other class can just manastone to break it, or use the vessel to break and prevent.

 

EQ2 pvp is gonna be a bunch of weaponheads running around with resist gear and manastones/vessels/one-shot-abilities because it will be clearly and decisively advantagous to do so. That people, is imbalance, by definition. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I wont.

Message Edited by beevul on 02-11-200607:09 AM

[Lenda]

Yeah, the biggest problems with coercres in PvP, I think, will be as stated above:

High Resist gear on ememies

Enemies breaking stun and mez with manastone type items

Enemies breaking charmed pets with Cure Arcane

Lesser problems will be short duration on any stuns or mezzes that do happen to stick and the inability to take any significant damage at all and live.

So, I don't see much of a coercer presence in PvP.  Those who do roll coercers will soon tire of being weak and ineffective.  A shame but, oh well...

[TheFlu]

Firstly thanks for your comments Cytomel.

I'm not going to warrant mentioning names in this post, but some people here just woffle rubbish for no other reason but to be greedy. One poster in particular is just afraid and greedy, a bit like the idiot poster on the PvP formum begging everyone not to play rangers in a desperate bid for his class not to be nerfed and he be the only Ranger ganking everyone.

It's quite honestly pathetic. You see it's human nature to believe that if you don't  whine about something then you won't get change. It's also human nature to believe if you don't say anything then all is fine. John McEnroe was a classis at tennis, he moaned and pi......ssed about every decision, making a big deal about EVERYTHING in order to effect EXTERNAL variables in the decision making process in hope of benefitting himself. Sometimes it worked, and more often than not it just made him look like a bad sport. Some people here believe that if we bag a certain class enough (EVEN IF IT DOESNT WARRANT IT) then certain changes to this class will be made for the better.

 I've said it time and time again to the DEVS to not really pay that much attention to these forums and hopefully they don't. I read them purely to get feedback and ideas on how a certain class is playing and more importanly to perhaps give some tips to fellow players.

Coercers are a magnifent class and for all those people who have stated that they are the least popular class played, well yes, you are absolutely right. Statistics on all servers tell us that coercers indeed are the least played, followed closely by troubs. Why? Because we suck and are under powered like one suggests. Maybe, but I don't believe so. Most people are simple minded, and people who play these games generally are simple people. Coercers are far from simple, they are without a doubt the hardest and most annoying class to play, which ulitimately leads to the must satisfying class to play for a very limited few. If you want simple, go play a wizard. You just press a few buttons and nuke, throwing in the occasional root and power dump. What a crap class to play, really, that's just boring. Why not play a ranger and feel uber cus everyone tells you how big you Co....ck is and how uber your DPS is. Don't all those rangers feel SPECIAL? It's probably the second easiest class to play and for those two reasons alone makes it the most popular, along with that insanely easy class to play, the conjurer.

It's simple people. The coercer is working well in PvP and PvE. I don't know where you people are getting all this rubbish from. Not many people can play them well, and the ones that are whining more than likely suck playing this class. They probably have two other alts, either a ranger, conj or bruiser and complain how much easier it is to be uber at these classes than it is being uber at a coercer. Well I can tell you, I have a level 56 ranger, 60 coercer, 44 conj and 53 necro, 60 wizard and 60 Fury. Now I don't personally play them all as my wife plays the other ones with me, but I know how they all work. My most powerful combo in both PvP and PvE is the Coercer and Wizzy, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what a combo, It's unrivalled, we can freaken take Cazel Mesa down with the two of us no problems. Tell me any other class that can do that? Infact I've even heard rumours that some Coercers can solo the zone, I have come close but yet to do it myself. I can mince zones like the Roost, what a joke.

Coercers weak in raids? Lol, I think not. Most have not a clue how to play one. People whine again about us just being a power battery. Crap! Learn your power, we have the best burst DPS in game no contest. You just have to live with dying a few times more than others. Throw all your reactives up, watch 80k in damage go flying bye, get wacked by the main mob, die, get ressed, have your wizzy partner in crime power you back up and rinse/repeat.

We are the best at everything. We can crowd control, hold players in PvP better than anyone (well illusionist are pretty good also), charm the crap out of uber mobs changing the odds and have the most uber of DPS. We live on the edge and for that reason we are the best. Many can't handle this kind of life. Many can't handle the fact we are hard to play. And most of all many just don't understand   the power of the Coercer. It's for these three reasons we are the least played class and it's for this reason that we are the most POWERFUL by FAR!.

Go stick that in your pipe and smoke it all you little moaners. Go learn your class before you cry will ya!

 

TheFluff.

 

[Auntee]

Impressions from the first full day of level 50 testing in Sinking Sands, where I finally got to PvP for an extended period of time with a level-appropriate pet:

Group v. Group (varying size)

• Coercer is effective support for a group, filling a number of roles in addition to buffs.  Crowd Control is a MUCH bigger factor in PvP than PvE.  Our ability to stop the Ranjas, even for 17 seconds at a time is huge.
• Since most classes don't understand reactive damage yet, I saw priests healing themselves to death on a few occasions.
• Wizards love their Ice Comet.  Tyrranical Mind is good for about 1500 damage when they cast it. 
• Power consumption is much higher in PvP, as people sprint to catch runners.  Regen becomes more important.
• Taunts seem to be working okay, but not as good as I'd hope.  I still have too much aggro and fall over dead too much, though Blink, Reek of Terror, and Confusing Babble (gnomish anti-hate spell) are helping a little.
• The addition of Psychic Wail to our Arsenal is awesome.  It's a useful tool, both for the damage and the stun component.

Speaking of Tyrannical Mind...  It was worth choosing for Master II.  It does 350% at M2 and PCs spend significantly more power than NPCs.  It frequently hits in the 500-900 range. 

Coercer v. One

We fare better at level 50 than we did at levels, 20, 30, and 40.  Pets at this level melee for around 200/hit, which is a very big distraction to the other classes.

• I both won and lost to a variety of classes today.  I beat Rangers, Swashbucklers, Monks, Templars, Illusionists, and Wizards today.  They all got me too.  I was most pleased with a little success against Rangers, who've been near unbeatable recently. 
• Also had some success without a pet, toe-to-toe with nothing but reactives, dots, and DD. 
• Resists are less of a problem 1v1 because, obviously, a single player isn't carrying group buffs. 

 

Pets still attack after a Coercer dies.  Oops.

Pets, told to stay at a particular location, don't always attack when commanded.  Only when told to follow do they listen.

Charm breakage at Adept I wasn't bad at all. 

 

My favorite part of the day was watching the frustration of our opponents.  I killed one, in particular, who kept reviving immediately (a few meters away) and would attack me immediately, only to die, revive immediately, attack and die, and so on.  It was clear he was desperate to take me down one way or another, but, after about seven or eight attempts he gave up.  It was similarly nice to occasionally outduel the Ranjas who were so merciless in prior days.  The extra HP at level 50 eases the pain of their poisons long enough for me to fight back.  When I engage them close up, they can beat on me all they want and the reactives will drop their HP down to the point where I stand a chance. 

It's still a bit frustrating to deal with so much aggro, but the tanks are getting better at tanking and we actually had a healer in the group today who did a good job keeping us in the fight.  All in all it was an encouraging day for a PvP Coercer and I can report that we've got something to offer the PvP world.

 

Semi-Interesting Stats:

• Resist rate:  17% (332 casts, 57 resisted)  This rate is typically within 3 percent of 19%
• Most effective spell:  Tyrannical Mind, 46% of total damage (high: 1547), Convulsions (Haruspex/Spell Lash) 34%
• Damage inflicted: 87049    Damage taken: 52533  (two hours, 34 minutes)

 

[Tanatus]

Cytomel - again question stay same

What is "immunity" level for resistance?

In moderately good gear (healthy mix t5 fabled, T6 legendary and few pieces of T6 fabled) - warlock who cannt buff self with mental resist easy score ~3000 mental resist. MT with mostly t6 fabled and few peices of legendary = 4000 mental resist. So it will be nice to test next

Resistance Adept 1 vs. 3K mental

Resistance Adept 3 vs 3K mental

Resistance Master 1 vs. 3K mental

I'd safely assume that in t7 legendary quality gear ppl will clocking around 3000-3500 resistance

 

Second question how well "Blur" part work on our root spell in PvP in PvE it work amezingly well

[Auntee]

---

Tanatus wrote:

Cytomel - again question stay same

What is "immunity" level for resistance?

In moderately good gear (healthy mix t5 fabled, T6 legendary and few pieces of T6 fabled) - warlock who cannt buff self with mental resist easy score ~3000 mental resist. MT with mostly t6 fabled and few peices of legendary = 4000 mental resist. So it will be nice to test next

Resistance Adept 1 vs. 3K mental

Resistance Adept 3 vs 3K mental

Resistance Master 1 vs. 3K mental

I'd safely assume that in t7 legendary quality gear ppl will clocking around 3000-3500 resistance

---

 

I can't answer, Tanatus.  We're all level 50 in the same handcrafted gear.  I can't attack anyone in mostly T6 fabled because nobody like that exists on the server. 

 

But others have noted, already, the difficulty of landing a spell or attack on someone a few levels higher than you.  It's been suggested that some mechanic be put into place to even things out a little across levels, at least.  I don't know if resist caps need to be lowered or not, since I've not been able to test against peeps in better gear and I've not used anything better than Adept I.

 

 

 

---

Second question how well "Blur" part work on our root spell in PvP in PvE it work amezingly well

---

 

That's a really good question.  Vision is blurred, I know that--that effect pops up repeatedly from various spells.  It's not hard to work through, however.  I don't think it's too hard to retarget after the blur effect passes--even while it's still up, for that matter.

 

 

Reek of Terror is awesome, btw. 

[Tanatus]

Thank you for your time and answer Cytomel!

You actually forseen my next question about lvl efficiency.... Yes it been expected that +3 lvl will be limit to your ability land any spell so I am not suprised. But please by any cost try to pass to developer main problem in balance between casters and melee

Melee by lvl 70 can built semi immunity to any form of magical attack via buffing wisdom+resistance gear on other hand casters (mages) dont have what so ever form to avoid/mitingate melee damage. Developer oughta do 1 of 2 things either set hard cap on magic damage mitingation/avoidance or grant mages  (PvP only) ability completely ignore resistance