Best use of concentration in a group?

[Sadaro]

I've started to do some parsing on my various buffs.  In particular, I'd like to know which classes are good recipients of Dynamism (our spell proc), which classes are good recipients of our Haste buff, and when to use Dynamism over Haste or vice versa.A few things I've learned:- Illusionists are great receipients of Dynamism.  With lots of fast-casting (low damage) spells, we get lots of Dynamism procs.  Dynamism accounted for 16% of my damage during a long grind session.- Wizards (and presumably Warlocks, but I haven't confirmed this) are poor users of Dynamism.  I believe they have longer casting times, so they cast fewer (higher damage) spells, which results in fewer chances to proc Dynamism.- Paladins are great recipients of Dynamism, almost as good as an Illusionist.- I've seen a few examples where the pure auto-attack damage of a melee class made Haste more useful than Dynamism.- Necros are OK recipients of Dynamism.  Look for a decent melee class first, though.Here are the summary numbers for a grind through a dungeon:(All numbers use 48% Haste and the level 60-70 dynamism at adept 3)- Dynamism on Illusionist: 56.00 DPS- Dynamism on Necro: 29.35 DPS- Piercing DPS of Swashbuckler w/ 48% Haste: 226.14 (estimated DPS from Haste: 73)- Melee DPS of Guardian w/o Haste: 81.83 (estimated DPS if he had haste: 39.2)In the example above, the swashbuckler was level 70 and well outfitted.I've also done some parsing of Dynamism on myself and a Paladin.  I seem to recall the paladin did about 10% less damage with Dynamism than I did.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

[Manyak]

u need to try dynamism on an SK. SK > Pally.

[NG23985_01]

It depends largely on your group makeup, but that's what I love about my Illusionist - he's so versatile and flexible.

 

Personally, in a small group (2-3 people) I keep my Personae active - his stuns and stifles help reduce the amount of damage the mob(s) put out. If I'm grouped with a bunch of Mages, I'll use Dynamism on classes in this order: Enchanters -> Summoners -> Summoner mage pets -> Sorcerers. You're right in your assumption that Sorcerers have lots of big/slow nukes, and thus fewer chances to trigger Dynamism than Enchanters and Summoners. I never bother casting Haste on the tank - fighters dont generate enough auto-attack damage for Haste to be worth it, usually.

 

Here's a hypothetical situation for you: Over the course of a fight, the tank does 2000 autoattack damage. Assume that 40% haste = 40% more damage (it doesnt work that way, but for simplicity we'll keep it at that). Now your tank has done 2800 damage - that's 800 damage more, than without Haste. Instead, you could use the Personae - he'd do easily 1500 damage over the course of that same fight, in addition to firing off some stuns and stifles (which makes the job easier on the healer).

 

Some hypothetical situations, and what I'd do in them:Tank + Sorcerer + Sorcerer - I'd keep the Personae pet active, rather than Haste/Dynamism.

Tank + Predator/Rogue + Predator/Rogue - I'd probably drop the Personae and Haste all 3, or Haste the scouts and Dynamism myself - but if the healer were having difficulty keeping the tank up, I'd use the Personae for his help with stuns.

Tank + Summoner + Summoner - Some summoners like to chain-nuke, where others are lazy and let their pet do all the work for them (casting few, if any spells themselves). If the summoner were a chain-nuker, I'd use Dynamism on him, or the mage pet, if active. If the summoner(s) are the lazy kind, and using the scout pet, I'd keep the Personae up. If they were the lazy kind, but using the mage pet, then I'd give the mage pet Dynamism.

 

~My general rules are:Personae > 3 Hastes on 3 different Fighters

Personae > 3 Dynamisms on 3 different Sorcerers

Personae < 2-3 Dynamisms on 2-3 different Summoner/Enchanter/Mage class Pet.

Personae < me for recieving one charge of Dynamism (for when I solo)

Personae > Any number of Haste/Dynamisms if mob DPS is high, and the extra stuns are needed to help survive.

~I think you're Illusionist is higher than mine, but that's ok - just stating my personal preferences and observations. Also hoping to add a little to the knowledge presented here. Keep in mind, Haste works only on auto-attack damage, NOT combat arts. If you parse, look closely at auto-attack damage only - its generally not very much, so personally I dont put much value on the Haste spell. Melee DPS comes more from arts than autoattack, it seems.

 

[Antipalad]

Stick dynamism/synergism on a troub running aria proc song = mayhem =)

[Xanoth]

for solo i'd recomend dropping your resist + power buff, then go with a persona + dynamism on yourself

filling concentration slots is always a juggle, and does my head in.

[MrDiz]

Does it fire on scout CAs??

[Sadaro]

As someone mentioned above, Haste only works on auto-attack (melee) damage.  Most parsers separate melee damage from CA/spell damage.  Now that NG mentions it, I'm not 100% sure that the melee damage I'm seeing is purely auto-attack damage.  I'd have to check the logs carefully to be sure.  I'd hate for a combat art to award extra attacks and have those extra attacks show up as melee damage, but I think things like that are happening.If that's true, we can't rely on the parses for DPS information.  We'll need to rely on comparing someone's DPS with the haste buff vs. their DPS without the buff. I don't think Dynamism procs on fighter or scout CA's -- only spells.  Most paladin/shadowknight abilities are spell based, and if they're acting as main tank, any type of damage shield is also spell based.  I believe scout poisons will proc Dynamism, too.I've just started parsing, but my initial results suggest that Haste on a well-equipped tank is better than Dynamism on a necro or wizard.To summarize what we have so far:- Best targets: Swashbuckler (Haste), Troubador w/ proc song (Dynamism), Illusionist (Dynamism)- Good targets: Paladins/SK's (Dynamism), Any well equipped tank/melee scout class (Haste)- Poor targets: Summoners, especially when using scout pets, Wizards/WarlocksI believe the pet doesn't do enough DPS to justify eliminating a single, well-placed buff.  I'd need to compare per-combat DPS of the pet with per-combat DPS of the buffs.  I could also drop both my resist buff and my INT buff to summon the pet and place a single DPS buff.   This is not something I'd normally do, but it would give me a valid DPS over time parse.  In some circumstances (small groups), the stun/stilfe abilities of the pet may be more important than pure DPS.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

[Tuleri]

Warlocks are actually excellent for Dyna.  The are after all big time AOE casters.  The more mobs within an AOE, the more chances to proc....SKs are probably the best (or close to it) for Dyna

[bluejello]

It seems more like a handicap than anything. There's nothing special about our buffs. Instead of simply getting a high damage attack like some classes, we have to use up our conc slots buffing others to contribute our intended dps. That's all the buffs really are. It's an indirect way of having an assassin attack or a wizard nuke. The problem is we're at a disadvantage since we have to use up our conc slots. Meanwhile other classes get the higher dps through attacks and are free to use their conc slots for extra buffs.Imagine replacing a wizard's biggest nuke with a proc buff that takes 1 conc slot. Think wizards would be happy about that? Of course not. It would be considered a nerf.To make matters worse troubadors get a proc buff that is very close in power to Illusionist's. They spend 1 conc slot and buff 6 people with it. They then get to use 4 other conc slots for buffs. Big difference. Illusionist gets the shaft here.

Message Edited by bluejello on 03-14-200609:35 AM

[Impetus]

Good summary. One thing to note is that if a class is close to the haste cap, obviously haste is less useful for them. I think this comes into play mostly with monks, possibly swashies and assassins or even berserkers?

[Parsleybi]

Heyas,

 

I have to admit that I'm not convinced that our buffs are actually better than having the personae up except in some raid situations.

 

I am an illusionist in my early 60s and looking back at parses over the last few levels I notice that my pet does about 150-200 dps in most fights against heroic (or above) opposition.

 

On myself, Dynamism accounts for about 50-90 dps, and given our fast casting times, we are arguably the best class to cast this on. Thus, you would need to cast on 3 other illusionists to make this more worthwhile than the pet. Since very few classes are able to match the dps that we can using the Dynamism proc, it is very unlikely in a group or group x2 situation that you will have enough 'suitable candidates' to cast this on.

 

I also feel that many classes that benifit from haste are well aware of this fact and have already taken great lengths to push themselves closer to the cap. I just don't feel that many classes have the autotattack damage that would be needed for each haste spell to generate 1/3 of a pet's dps.

 

All the above only takes into account raw damage and does not factor in the benefit that the pet does in terms of damage mitigation (heroic or less) with it's stuns and stifles.  Furthermore, the Aria and Maestro procs provided by a Troubadour significantly boost the pet's damage as does the INT boost provided by Furies.

 

The times I do use haste and dynamism instead of the pet is usually when I am fighting big raid mobs whose AOE attacks quickly kill pets or those that are very resistant to mental damage. The buffs are also useful in  instances when we need to wipe out large groups of weak mobs and I can't be bothered to keep making the pet switch targets  and I find it more useful to use dynamism help AOE nukers whittle them down faster.

 

Aora, Runnyeye

[Sadaro]

I'd agree with the 150 DPS for the personae in a single fight, and I don't have any good number for long term grind sessions.  With the time between combats and time spent retargeting, it wouldn't surpise me if this number drops to 50 DPS during a grind session.However, my parses show the DPS of Synergism (I'm using the level 6x Dynamism at adept 3) does more like 100-250 DPS when cast on me.  This, by itself, meets the personae's DPS for a single fight.  Over a long grind session, counting the time between combat, my Dynamism does 50-60 DPS.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

[bluejello]

I suppose what annoys me about this is that on a raid you could buff 5 people with dynamism for a lot of extra dps while a troubador uses 1 conc slot to buff 6 people with it. It's all about damage with this buff. It adds extra damage. Our nukes are nothing like wizard, lock, etc... so they have spells that match and surpass the damage we use with our skills AND 5 conc slots filled. In other words they could take away dynamism and give us one good nuke spell and we'd be better off along with using our 5 conc slots for actual buffs.Since enchanters are so badly handicapped on raids this is especially painful. I think this is balanced when you consider enchanter stuns, stifles, mezzes, and everything else...but those don't work on epics. The balance is tossed right out the window and enchanters take a nose dive.I'd like to see dynamism changed to a buff with: higher proc percentage, higher damage, maintained on 1 group/raid friend only, 0 conc slots. Then add a new spell line that is a group buff, 1 conc slot, lower damage than original dynamism but has a secondary effect of returning a small amount of power to the person with the buff based on damage dealt or whatever.

[zit]

it always depends a lot on situation and group set up.

Dynamism is best used in AE situations on classes who use their AE spells. warlock, illu, wizard, conjuror are all good classes to buff. just make sure first the wiz is really going to his AE rather than single nuke... in a caster heavy group when going to face a lot AE fights nothing can beat Dynamism.

Haste is best used on very good equipped melee. Good tier 7 fighter weapons hit 700+ per swing, its worth to give them haste. However in many group set ups ppl can easily come close to their haste cap without illu buff already. High lvl monk and swash have very good self haste, not much point to buff them. zerker can self haster very well too, although a bit more temporarly. the best to haste i have found guardian, bruiser, brigand and assassin. crusader will benefit more if they get Dynamism.

my personae is doing about 120-150 dps in average. it depends on group if i keep it up or drop it for other buffs.

[Manyak]

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NG23985_01 wrote:

I never bother casting Haste on the tank - fighters dont generate enough auto-attack damage for Haste to be worth it, usually.

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Fighters are the ONLY classes that generate enough autoattack damage for haste. If ur casting haste on scouts, ur harming the group more than helping. Not only do scouts have enough CAs to constnatly mash, but those few attacks that do go through have a lower chance of procing poison (or anything else) when the scout is hasted.

Fighters on the other hand dont have as many damage procs, and they DEFIATNELY dont have enough CAs to constantly mash.

[MrDiz]

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DaMutation wrote:

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NG23985_01 wrote:

I never bother casting Haste on the tank - fighters dont generate enough auto-attack damage for Haste to be worth it, usually.

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Fighters are the ONLY classes that generate enough autoattack damage for haste. If ur casting haste on scouts, ur harming the group more than helping. Not only do scouts have enough CAs to constnatly mash, but those few attacks that do go through have a lower chance of procing poison (or anything else) when the scout is hasted.

Fighters on the other hand dont have as many damage procs, and they DEFIATNELY dont have enough CAs to constantly mash.

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Can anyone confirm this about the poison?

[Manyak]

chance per hit to proc poison on autoattack is:

 

(weapon delay / 3) * % to proc

 

decrease weapon delay, and u decrease that number. so since about the same number of autoattack hits are going to get though between the CAs when hasted, the scout will not proc poison between each attack as much as before.

[zit]

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DaMutation wrote:

chance per hit to proc poison on autoattack is:

 

(weapon delay / 3) * % to proc

 

decrease weapon delay, and u decrease that number. so since about the same number of autoattack hits are going to get though between the CAs when hasted, the scout will not proc poison between each attack as much as before.

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if they still only hit the same number this would mean that haste has no effect at all on scouts. which i cannot confirm.

[Barobra]

One other thing to take into consideration is agro...if the tank is having a tough time keeping agro....putting that master synergism on a high dps class may not be a good idea. :smileyhappy:

[Impetus]

Quite true. There have definitely been times where I've had to take Dynamism off a warlock or Haste off a summoner's scout pet.

[Sadaro]

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DaMutation wrote:

chance per hit to proc poison on autoattack is:

 

(weapon delay / 3) * % to proc

 

decrease weapon delay, and u decrease that number. so since about the same number of autoattack hits are going to get though between the CAs when hasted, the scout will not proc poison between each attack as much as before.

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Good point.  If the scout is interspersing auto-attacks with combat arts, haste might not increase the number of auto-attacks while lowering his chance to proc.I know this is one of the reasons I'm considering dropping the AGI AA line (faster cast times)... I tend to alternate my fast nuke with another spell (DoT/debuff, prismatic, construct, combat debuff, etc).  Since most spells finish about the same time the fast nuke refreshes, this works well.  Casting spells faster then waiting for my fast nuke to finish refreshing means I'm doing about the same DPS without Chronosiphon.(I still don't have any hard numbers on how well the casting time debuff of Chronosiphon reduces MOB DPS, or how well it works on raid mobs.  If you have any numbers, let us know.)Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

[Sadaro]

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Barobrain wrote:

One other thing to take into consideration is agro...if the tank is having a tough time keeping agro....putting that master synergism on a high dps class may not be a good idea. :smileyhappy:

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Remember that paladins (and maybe other tanks), can take a % of the aggro from one person.  In these cases, putting synergism on the high DPS class will help the tank keep aggro.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

[Tarkadal]

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Sadaro wrote:[...]I know this is one of the reasons I'm considering dropping the AGI AA line (faster cast times)... I tend to alternate my fast nuke with another spell (DoT/debuff, prismatic, construct, combat debuff, etc).  Since most spells finish about the same time the fast nuke refreshes, this works well.  Casting spells faster then waiting for my fast nuke to finish refreshing means I'm doing about the same DPS without Chronosiphon.[...]Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

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Sure, but you're getting better atuo-attack DPS with your dagger between spells :smileyvery-happy:

(What? you aren't going toe to toe with the mobs while you mez'em?)

[Sadaro]

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Tarkadal wrote:

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Sadaro wrote:[...]I know this is one of the reasons I'm considering dropping the AGI AA line (faster cast times)... I tend to alternate my fast nuke with another spell (DoT/debuff, prismatic, construct, combat debuff, etc).  Since most spells finish about the same time the fast nuke refreshes, this works well.  Casting spells faster then waiting for my fast nuke to finish refreshing means I'm doing about the same DPS without Chronosiphon.[...]Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

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Sure, but you're getting better atuo-attack DPS with your dagger between spells :smileyvery-happy:

(What? you aren't going toe to toe with the mobs while you mez'em?)

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I know  you put a smiley on it, but I *do* go toe-to-toe with solo mobs.  I use one of the following sequences:1.  Construct, prismatic self, engage personae, dismay (for tougher solo mobs), auto-attack on, DPS spells2.  Prismatic self, color shower, dismay, auto-attack on, DPS spellsOf course, I have the fabled robe that occasionally procs a 350 point ward.  Between the ward, the combat debuff, the stifle (usually from color shower), and the pet taking aggro for a bit, I don't take much damage.  It doesn't hurt that the prismatic does an extra 1500-2000 damage, plus procs from synergism.  The solo mobs go down so much faster this way.For a while there, I was under the impression that Grizzlefazzle's staff had a 500 point combat proc, and would melee any mob.  After a little more reading, I noticed it was a spell proc and went back to standing away from heroic mobs so I could maintain clear lines of sight.Sadari68 IllusionistMistmoore