I smell a root nerf coming

[Roxxanne]

Here is the evidence:

 

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We realize that Coercer charm is too unreliable, and the spell folks are working on it. Control spells are receiving a thorough pass to address issues like this.

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Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=64067#M64067

 

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and this report from the community summit:

 

"It seems mages will get the biggest spanking from the future nerf paddle, though mages profitted overmuch from the changes in the first place by any reasonable assessment. Enjoy that 50-second root that cycles every 6 seconds while it lasts, for soon the chain-permaroot will be no more."

 

http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=610&meid=241

 

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Personally, I don't believe our root deserves to get nerfed.  I admit to using it to solo some heroics without getting hit.  However, I also die doing this maybe 20% of the time to multiple resists (gambling on a recast instead of immediately running away, or fighting in an area with too many mobs to run away), and run away maybe another 20% of the time.  The 60% of the time I am successful, I get no faster exp or loot than killing multi-mob solo encounters, because it takes a lot longer to kill them.  I know from chain killing such mobs in a group that the chest drop rate is pretty low and the loot mediocre, and doing them solo is no way to rake in the loot.  The only real reason to do this is to finish quests solo.

 

The problem will be, if they nerf our root, how do we solo?  The combat update heavily nerfed my avoidance and durability, I die very quick now when a mob starts beating on me.  Back to mezz/nuke?  Yuck.  If we have to stick to mobs our personae can tank, that takes us back to a pretty feeble soloer.  I dont think beefing up our personae's tanking ability is the right answer, as we are not summoners.  For tougher mobs, root based soloing with a lot of risk if it resists is the right balance for us, in my opinion.  I think the risk/reward is currently fine on our soloing with root as it stands.

Message Edited by Roxxanne on 10-12-2005 11:08 AM

[MillsFairchild]

If they nerfed root, our solo ability would go out the window. Our best root has a 25 second duration with a 10 second recast.  Not nearly as skewed as whatever root the community summit recap was talking about (although, he may have been exaggerating to enhance a point). I'd really hate to see one of our more valuable soloing assets get nerfed.  We are supposed to have the most powerful crowd control spells in the game, after all.

[Pins]

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MillsFairchild wrote:If they nerfed root, our solo ability would go out the window. Our best root has a 25 second duration with a 10 second recast.  Not nearly as skewed as whatever root the community summit recap was talking about (although, he may have been exaggerating to enhance a point). I'd really hate to see one of our more valuable soloing assets get nerfed.  We are supposed to have the most powerful crowd control spells in the game, after all.

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Actually, they weren't exaggerating. They were talking about Wizard's AoE root. Which is a 50 second root, on a 6 second timer, HOWEVER it also has a huge chance of breaking upon damage. My bet, our root won't get changed.

[Jaxidi]

we hope 

[zit]

actually the recast timer on the sorcerer AE root was increased within the first week after combat changes went live as far as i know. think its 20 sec now with a max duration of about 50 sec or something like that. but of course they still have their single target roots.

who also still has a 50 sec duration root on a fast recast are some healer classes (and maybe summoner? )

enchanter always only got a relative short duration root. it was 18sec before CU, now its a bit longer but still nothing close to what other classes get and our recast is longer.

i wouldnt bet though that a change to root will not have some impact on enchanter root as well. as ppl usually connect root with mage class, they will usually also only complain about root of mages. (or complain that mages with their high dps in combination with root are to strong). for that reason i could imagine that only mage root, including enchanter root, will get changed and healer root stay untouched. Guess we will see soon enough.

 

Message Edited by zitha on 10-12-2005 02:59 PM

[Jaxidi]

Yeah, this is right.  I just logged in my 41 wizard and his ae root is 50s duration, 20s recast.

[Barobra]

*Prays* Please dont change our root.

[Zebsen]

Am I missing something?  It seems like I am.  I admit that after experimenting with the doppleganger, I haven't went back to the root/DoT/nuke strategy that I used to use to solo.  But, I haven't used root since the CU.  I solo just fine, although I rarely try soloing heroics.  I assume that attacking still breaks root, which would limit my DPS fairly severely - I can't send the pet, or use the prismatic line, or the construct without breaking the root.  Hence, I haven't used it.

 

Is this not the case?

 

Zebsen

Level 45 illusionist

Lavastorm

[PigLick]

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ZebsenChanter wrote:

Am I missing something?  It seems like I am.  I admit that after experimenting with the doppleganger, I haven't went back to the root/DoT/nuke strategy that I used to use to solo.  But, I haven't used root since the CU.  I solo just fine, although I rarely try soloing heroics.  I assume that attacking still breaks root, which would limit my DPS fairly severely - I can't send the pet, or use the prismatic line, or the construct without breaking the root.  Hence, I haven't used it.

 

Is this not the case?

 

Zebsen

Level 45 illusionist

Lavastorm

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Nope, not the case. Enchanter roots no longer break on damage, but have a periodic chance to break. They will usually last the full duration, though the chance decreases the higher the mob relative to you. So you can root and nuke away and it won't affect the duration of your root one bit. PigLick

[MillsFairchild]

PigLick is correct.  Root does not break on damage anymore.  You're actually limiting your DPS output by NOT using your root (due to aggro management issues). 

[Daayz]

I have been using the root to help with the main tank taunt issues (ie resists). After i mez a mob and we finish the mob  we are on , i will root the next one i want the tank to take, this gives him a visible idea of which mob i want him to attack and also makes it so if his taunts gets resisted the mob doesnt beeline to me. I also use it when solo, I will group mez  a 3-4 mob group, root one and send in pet, help with Ho/Prismatic/dots, then root next in line, rinse repeat. Really keeps the amount of damage done to me down.

[Zebsen]

Thanks a lot for the info.  I have really been trying to watch my DPS output in a group to keep from pulling aggro.  I remember reading that root didn't break on damage, but for some reason I was thinking this was nuke damage - which usually broke root pre-patch.  I assumed that melee damage still broke it.  If I can actually open up on a mob without getting aggro... wow.

 

I had been typically waiting to throw prismatic on the tank/scout and holding back on nuking (not that the later accounts for much).  And I thought I had really started to master the CU changes.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

Thanks again for the tip.

 

Zebsen

[SunT]

If you stand back a ways and open up on DPS, then wait to root until you pull aggro, you can extend the life of the Pets a bit. 

[MillsFairchild]

Keep in mind that in a group it not only benefits you, but every other ranged DPS toon as well (mages and rangers in particular).  The entire group's DPS potential goes up when you can successfully keep the mob from getting to them.  With you in the group, they can pretty much unload at will.

Message Edited by MillsFairchild on 10-13-2005 05:50 PM

[Dainger]

  Been having alot of fun ranged exp groups lately =).

  One healer, one illu, and fill the rest with rangers/warlocks/wizards....add troubs for extra illusionist scout spice.

[Zebsen]

Yes, I played with this strategy last night and really got to unload on some mobs.  Root is very effective at increasing DPS.  Are just illusionist roots like this or is this for multiple classes? 

 

Thanks for the tip.  I still can't believe I missed experimenting with this.

 

Zebsen

Level 45 Illusionist

Lavastorm

 

 

[MillsFairchild]

As far as I know (and I very well could be wrong here), only Enchanters are supposed to get this kind of root.  Wizard, Warlock, Conjuorer, and Necromancer root spells all include this description:"Roots the [class'] target in place, preventing them from movement. Every hostile spell or damage received by the target has a chance at breaking the effect."Root notes form the combat changes:

Root Spells

• There are two types of root spells: damage break and periodic.
• Damage break roots have a chance to break every time the rooted entity takes damage or is the target of a hostile action (such as a debuff).
• Periodic roots have a chance to break at certain points in the spell's duration, but will not break due to damage or hostile acts.
• Root duration is affected by the level of the spell and the type of root, but is not impacted by spell rank (Apprentice I, Adept III, etc.).
• Damage break root duration ranges from 20 to 60 seconds if the root is the only (or primary) effect of the spell. Otherwise, duration is 10 to 30 seconds.
• Periodic root duration ranges from 10 to 30 seconds if the root is the only effect of the spell. Otherwise, duration is 5 to 15 seconds.
• The reuse time of a root spell is determined by the type of root spell and the targets it affects.
• Damage break root reuse is generally 6 seconds for single-target roots and 10 seconds for TAE/PBAE-target roots.
• Periodic root reuse is generally 10 seconds for single-target roots and 15 seconds for TAE/PBAE-target roots.
• These numbers represent reuse for spells with root as the primary effect of the spell. Combination spells with root effects will vary based on the other aspects of the spell.
• Cast time of a root spell is determined by the type of root spell and the targets it affects.
• PBAE-target root spells are 1 second; single-target or TAE-target root spells are 2 seconds.
• These numbers represent cast times for spells with root as the primary effect.

Message Edited by MillsFairchild on 10-14-2005 11:01 AM

[SunT]

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MillsFairchild wrote:
As far as I know (and I very well could be wrong), only Enchanters get this kind of root.  Wizard, Warlock, Conjuorer, and Necromancer root spells all include this description:

"Roots the [class'] target in place, preventing them from movement. Every hostile spell or damage received by the target has a chance at breaking the effect."

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This is why I think it is working as intended.  We should have been given a great root from day one of release.  We are CC.  Root is CC.

I have noticed a significant increase in root breakage recently.  Usually on high yellow or orange which is to be expected.  On Blue it is still pretty consistent. 

[Tendonit]

The root cannot be relied upon against most  yellow and higher mobs, and especially against named ^^^ mobs, even blue con. Root is helpful in soloing, but with our solo DPS this ability does not overpower us. We can do a lot of things because we have a lot of tools, root is but one of them, but the time it takes to safely defeat an encounter solo balances things out. Here is an example. There was one of those jealous types posting about him witnessing an illusionist solo Curator in Silent City "with ease".  Is that overpowered? Well first of all that person only saw the end of the fight, which took 10-15 minutes as he claims. The tricky part would be the pull, our group mezz cannot mezz the whole encounter since there are too many mobs in it. Trying to single mezz heroics as they are beating on you after group mezz is tricky and then you have to kill them one by one. When you are down to just the Curator the only strategy that gives you safety is to stun and "nuke". That is what was witnessed most likely. Our stun is a dot now, you can only mezz when it is completely worn out which requires great timing and few resists. Our "nuke" is ....   So I do believe it is possible for illusionist to solo a very tough encounter, and make it look easy to someone without a clue, but in fact it is a tough, risky, and time consuming process. And I believe that what illusionist is all about, having tools to develop an intricate strategy that requires almost flawless execution. And it is not an effective way to xp or plat farm. There are many classes that can solo very tough encounters, we are hardly alone in this situation. And in most cases it is based on some sort of root, stun or snare. If you take that away we are all back to killing solo mobs, which is frankly boring, or we are forced to group. I play in group most of the time anyway, but I don't want to be forced to do anything.

[Barobra]

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Tendonitis wrote:The root cannot be relied upon against most  yellow and higher mobs, and especially against named ^^^ mobs, even blue con.

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I am sure I am not alone on this. But, depending on the surroundings (such as if there is alot of agro walking around) I have been very successful soloing ^^^ blue named. The root holds very well especially with wither hope. If its a caster forget about it (unless you want a VERY VERY long drawn out fight). If its straight melee, its all over. It took me alot of practice but once I figured it out, I took out the named 100% of the time.

[Dainger]

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Barobrain wrote:

If its a caster forget about it (unless you want a VERY VERY long drawn out fight).

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 Actually i tend to hunt casters over melee's, as it seems to me that their hitpoints are lower.  Not to mention we're equipped w/ the capabilities of chain stifling them.  Oh and as long as you are high enough on the targets hate list, you shouldn't have to worry about your personae's or constructs hp's.

[Barobra]

Lot more leeway with the melee. Wont ever hit you long as root is on. Either way you have to have root up. From a named mob your not going to be taking any hits if you want to stay alive. But I have to admit the casters have less hp. Just, keeping them stifled can be difficult. I have had more success with the melee personally. I see your point about the pets. But id be willing to bet that a named caster will take out the personae or construct in seconds with just melee. I dont even bother with them I try to get as much power as I possibly can with buffs potions etc. I get in trouble I mez it med up and finish it off.

Message Edited by Barobrain on 10-14-2005 03:19 PM

[Manyak]

i actually tested out soloing without the root. ive found it to be very similar to what we used to have to do pre-revamp....

 

Basic idea is this:

Start off by mezzing mob

Cast Dismay just in case, this way theres a higher chance for him to miss u when attacking if he gets free

Cast Sap Will to stun

Nuke a few times (Scorching Beam, Embolism, and Scorching beam again)

Cast Bewildering Cascade (for some reason i forget the name of the newer one)

While that short stun is in effect, cancel sap will so that the mana drain dot is stopped and remezz. If you are fasst enough, you can start casting mezz before canceling.

Wait on the spell timers and repeat.

 

You can also use illusiory allies to act as a second stun where u dont take any damage right before sap will runs out and nuke some more in that time.

 

With the difference that you need to use the encounter stun kind of as a buffer between sap will and the mezz and that you arent exactly draining a mobs mana to 0 before attacking, this is pretty much the same way we had to solo pre-revamp. Soloing heroics (and even some epics) was possible, but very anoying and time consuming.

 

 

On solo mobs its easier, but still a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Most solo mobs now are a group of 2 or 3 mobs with down arrows, so obvious thing would be to mezz em all then take em out one by one while chain stifling/stunning, and using prismatic strife on urself while autoattacking. Yeh it get the mobs down pretty quick, but if you compare that to any other mage's solo, its just completely rediculous. Wizzies and warlocks can take down the mobs before they are able to do any significant damage, even without using roots. Summoners can just bring up a REAL tanking pet to take the hits. So wed be left with long waits for our hp and mana (since we burn mana fast as hell) to regen between fights. Just rediculous.

 

Considering that wed still have the same soloing power (as in wed still be ABLE to kill heroics and stuff) its just unreasonable to change the root spell alone unless they were planning on changing alot of our other spells as well. All i know is that if the root goes back to the same way it was before revamp its gonna lose its spot on my hotbar (again )

[Tendonit]

Solo without root is still needed against some mobs. I fought a mob that is a caster and sheds the root (Master I) too easily. I am more impatient, so my strat was a bit more straight forward but almost the same: Mezz (got master II group mezz as training optiion) Start HO, wait a bit Sap Will Nuke, enough time for 2nd HO Cancel DoT if you had to use it to finish HO Mezz, the last part is tricky, you have to start casting mezz half a second before Sap Will expires. But the good news, if you have a short gap the caster mob will try to cast instead of melee. That gives you extra free time, which is the casting time of whichever spell the mob uses. Goes quite a bit faster than pre-revamp. Our nukes are better and dynamism helps a lot.

[Miracole]

why are we even talking about this??? mezzer's root is a non issue here. my dots (at lvl 48 with master 1 and adapt3) does merely 120 every 4 or 6 sec and my biggest nuke (against at adept3) does 375 and 350... it takes us years to kill something. at the mean time a wizard at lvl 50 can nuke 4000 every 12 seconds and deal out non stop 500+ dmg.................. with plenty of knock back and snare to spare.... our root is NOT overpowered and there will be NO nerfing. period. if our root gets nerfed, soe might as well sent each illusionist a coffin, or some sort of special shard recovery machine...

[Barobra]

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Miracole wrote:
why are we even talking about this??? mezzer's root is a non issue here. my dots (at lvl 48 with master 1 and adapt3) does merely 120 every 4 or 6 sec and my biggest nuke (against at adept3) does 375 and 350... it takes us years to kill something. at the mean time a wizard at lvl 50 can nuke 4000 every 12 seconds and deal out non stop 500+ dmg.................. with plenty of knock back and snare to spare....

our root is NOT overpowered and there will be NO nerfing. period.

if our root gets nerfed, soe might as well sent each illusionist a coffin, or some sort of special shard recovery machine...

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Thing is dynamism is making all the difference. Each time that dot hits it has a chance to proc dynam. So you start stacking 4 dots, then hit with 2 dd's and maybe through in a stun or two(which also proc dynam) your talking about some damage....

 

And actually, I have a bruiser friend I group with and we coordinate my adept 3 prismatic havoc.....now that is some dps, I have made over 800 dps. On avg if we coordinate I can get 400-500 easy.

[Toes]

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Barobrain wrote:

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Miracole wrote:
why are we even talking about this??? mezzer's root is a non issue here. my dots (at lvl 48 with master 1 and adapt3) does merely 120 every 4 or 6 sec and my biggest nuke (against at adept3) does 375 and 350... it takes us years to kill something. at the mean time a wizard at lvl 50 can nuke 4000 every 12 seconds and deal out non stop 500+ dmg.................. with plenty of knock back and snare to spare....

our root is NOT overpowered and there will be NO nerfing. period.

if our root gets nerfed, soe might as well sent each illusionist a coffin, or some sort of special shard recovery machine...

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Thing is dynamism is making all the difference. Each time that dot hits it has a chance to proc dynam. So you start stacking 4 dots, then hit with 2 dd's and maybe through in a stun or two(which also proc dynam) your talking about some damage....

 

And actually, I have a bruiser friend I group with and we coordinate my adept 3 prismatic havoc.....now that is some dps, I have made over 800 dps. On avg if we coordinate I can get 400-500 easy.

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You sure Dynamism proc on DOT ticks ? From my testing and log, I do not see that happen. Anyone have a different result ?

Toesik

[Fizwi]

Shard-recovery machine?  Haha...check out the 16b test notes...28g to get it back at 60.More to the point: root nerf IS coming.  Time-resists were lessened, but our roots now have a "small" chance to break on damage.  Coercer roots were altered similarly.

[zit]

Dynamism does NOT proc on each tick of a dot. It only has a chance to proc at the initial cast.

[PigLick]

Good nose Roxxanne! :smileywink: I don't know about illu roots, but our coercer roots got hit pretty hard, and I'm assuming they're the same. I'm only using an App2 root on test, which is likely part of the problem, but that "small" chance to break on damage is not seeming very small. PigLick