Just a FYI : Illusionists doing much better after the changes! - Page 2

Lik · 08-17-2005, 06:52 PM

Was the level left reduced as well? I remember in Saden's pictures it showed group invis as L40 invis at M1.

I'm not sure if this falls under the NDA or not, and I certainly don't want you guys to break it, but in general are you fairly impressed with the expansion? And do we remain having a cool role as we have been changed to in 1-50? If that starts getting into shades of grey for the NDA, just tell me ya can't answer it, as I said I wouldn't want to see yall getting into trouble.

Message Edited by Likky on 08-17-2005 12:33 PM

SunT · 08-17-2005, 09:05 PM

Azamien-Dermorate wrote:

Lynx wrote:

How about the duration and recast timers? Those bothered me more then the runspeed reduction . Couplled with the runspeed reduction though it made it a worthless skill.

Grp invis duration is 2.5mins

Recast is 15s

No (or very minimal) slowdown on runspeed.

Much better!

(Beta)

Thanks, that is better. Still not great but better then what I heard at first. It still isnt very long duration but atleast the recast timer is a bit more resonalble. Still not going to be used for much because 2.5 isnt much duration for runing thru places like Sol Eye..

There are a ton more see invis this week than last on Live. So the 2.5 min might not make much of a difference. I was lucky to have it up for one min last night in Perma. I can live with it if there is a 15 sec recast.

ToeP · 08-18-2005, 08:16 PM

In Permafrost maybe there are more see-invis, but Lavastorm, Solusek Eye, EL, RV, Nek Castle, etc. etc. are unchanged. Where are these see invis mobs you're talking about?

Loosing group invis is a killer to the small group's play style.

Basically the world is going to get at least 20% smaller because you simply won't have the time to hammer our way there.

What I don't get is why hasn't this change been made across the board to all see-invis spells. Illisionists are the only one getting nerfed - the fury one is now even longer! (Yeah sure there's a run speed change for furies - but it's duration that matters. Heck slower run speed makes it even easier to keep groups together so that's a wash IMO.)

It needs to be at least long enough to handle the LD player case because otherwise a small group is going to wipe. That'd be 10 minutes for instances. Put it to that & full run speed and small groups will still be able to have access to the parts of EQ2 they can get to now with equivalent survability.

Duration is way more important than runspeed and recast. The illisionist group invis simply has to be longer or we're likely to leave.

Make it a training option?

Toepeg

50 Illisionist of Oggok

SunT · 08-18-2005, 08:44 PM

EL has see invis mobs all over it now. Groups of 3-4 and one of them can see invis. Mostly around choke points like the run to foomby or in the middle where you do the Jboots path.

LS has see invis giants and golems all over for the run to open the portal. You can avoid them in most areas but the narrows near the portal you usually have to train or fight.

Perma used to only have see invis roamers on the first floor and once in a great while I would see them up above. There are also occasional see invis non-named stationary that I never saw before the last two weeks.

SE and Nek Castle seem unchanged to me.

MilkToa · 08-18-2005, 09:05 PM

ToePeg wrote:

In Permafrost maybe there are more see-invis, but Lavastorm, Solusek Eye, EL, RV, Nek Castle, etc. etc. are unchanged. Where are these see invis mobs you're talking about?

Loosing group invis is a killer to the small group's play style.

Basically the world is going to get at least 20% smaller because you simply won't have the time to hammer our way there.

What I don't get is why hasn't this change been made across the board to all see-invis spells. Illisionists are the only one getting nerfed - the fury one is now even longer! (Yeah sure there's a run speed change for furies - but it's duration that matters. Heck slower run speed makes it even easier to keep groups together so that's a wash IMO.)

It needs to be at least long enough to handle the LD player case because otherwise a small group is going to wipe. That'd be 10 minutes for instances. Put it to that & full run speed and small groups will still be able to have access to the parts of EQ2 they can get to now with equivalent survability.

Duration is way more important than runspeed and recast. The illisionist group invis simply has to be longer or we're likely to leave.

Make it a training option?

Toepeg

50 Illisionist of Oggok

All group inivisbility spells are changing, not just illusionists. My understanding is there will be 2 types of group invisibility; a 2.5 minute invis with no speed penalty or a 10 minute invis (maybe a little longer) with a major speed penalty (around 40%).

PigLick · 08-19-2005, 04:40 AM

Also, a bit of food for thought here. Only a few classes get group invis currently, right? Illus, fury's and brigands (I think?) are the only ones I know of. If group invis is really so important that losing it "is a killer to the small group's playstyle," and yet only a few groups will have it available, that may be a good argument that it's overpowered as it is. I don't know much about group invis and I'm not saying what they've done to it is a good or fair change, but any ability that only one or a few classes have that can "make or break" a group's playability *should* be looked at a little more closely. PigLick

Impetus · 08-19-2005, 06:34 AM

Swashbucklers, also. That makes four. There's only 6 healing classes. That is "make or break" for small groups, large groups, and even raids! The reason it seems like almost nobody gets group invis is that illusionists, swashbucklers, and brigands are three of the least-played classes. Furies aren't much higher, either, and their group invis isn't until the mid-40s.

ToePeg wrote: What I don't get is why hasn't this change been made across the board to all see-invis spells. Illisionists are the only one getting nerfed - the fury one is now even longer! (Yeah sure there's a run speed change for furies - but it's duration that matters. Heck slower run speed makes it even easier to keep groups together so that's a wash IMO.)

Haha, agreed! I'd much rather have a long duration with a significant slowdown than a short duration with no slowdown.

zit · 08-19-2005, 02:36 PM

PigLickJF wrote:
Also, a bit of food for thought here. Only a few classes get group invis currently, right? Illus, fury's and brigands (I think?) are the only ones I know of. If group invis is really so important that losing it "is a killer to the small group's playstyle," and yet only a few groups will have it available, that may be a good argument that it's overpowered as it is.

I don't know much about group invis and I'm not saying what they've done to it is a good or fair change, but any ability that only one or a few classes have that can "make or break" a group's playability *should* be looked at a little more closely.

PigLick

If group invis were considered so much overpowered by the Devs, it would not make any sense to only change invis of 2 classes to short duration, while leaving 2 other classes at 10 and 15 mins.

The main reason for this change seems to me is that Swashbuckler complained about caster invis.

If they had complained about healer invis I am pretty sure that it would be the furies now who get the short duration invis, while ours would stay at 15 mins and not the other way round.

Actually fury get duration of invis increased from 10 to 15 mins. And although they get a movement penalty now, don’t forget they can make up for some of it by their run speed buff.

The most annoying about all this is, that those who complained about our invis didn’t seem to even have an idea what classes get group invis beside swashbucklers. As they basically did bring up 2 arguments when asking for the nerf. The one was that swashbuckler should be utility rogues, yet caster get better group invis and thus rendering one of swash main utility useless. The other was that caster can outdamage them and its not fair that caster also get the better invis.

We all know that these arguments are flawed. Enchanter have been considered even more an utility class than swash and for sure couldn’t outdamage them, so who if not enchanter should get the best group invis? However, the only thing they seemed to know is that it is a “caster” invis and as “caster” usually is connected with “sorcerer”, they asked for nerf. And SOE of course listens to their customers. :smileywink:

Demi · 08-19-2005, 11:00 PM

I'd be willing to bet that the change to group invis has less to do with swashies calling for a nerf and more to do with the devs wanting to introduce some thought to travel. I get the feeling that it's supposed to be situational, rather than a tool for bypassing content. Running down to naggy needs to involve some effort, not putting up invis, sticking af on the leader and going to get a coffee.

zit · 08-20-2005, 12:13 AM

Huh????

What thought to travel gets introduced here?

The thought that you cannot chose between 4 invis classes anymore, but only 2 ?

Yea, this sure will add some more effort to Naggy runs. More effort to find an inviser....

Spellbounders · 08-22-2005, 03:00 PM

Andychaves wrote:
Thank you for your input. As I or my group members never really realised the real usefulness of Dynamism and Legerity (they kept saying they didnt notice any difference) I wonder what is the benefit of casting Dynamism on a wizard?

Yllyana, level 50 Illusionist

Dynamism is now a spell-casting proc. Does ~300 damage whenever a hostile spell is successfully cast. Prismatic Strife is the same thing, but it does that amount of damage after three successful melee attacks.

JuddBal · 08-23-2005, 08:53 AM

Dynamism is a huge buff. For 1 conc slot, all of your target spells include a nice mental nuke. This turns your debuff cycle into a medium dps routine. Just watch agro. It adds significant dmg/mana ratio and dps increase to your dots and nukes. It processes on each target of the aoes. I don't know if it double procs along with Prismatic Strife, but I'd guess not since that isn't our spell landing on the mob per se. Things to consider, root, stuns, stifle will all include this effect. The real win is Mez. Since mez works while running, not only can you mez while running, you can nuke while running too. Absolutely huge. The mez effect will land alongside the mental dmg portion. I know that prismatic strife shows our dmg component as orange numbers. I forgot to check if dynamism works this way. During my first night, I was able to achieve DPS > 800. Be careful with this tool, it can kill you.

JuddBal · 08-23-2005, 09:13 AM

Correction, I spoke too soon. Dynamism might only process about 20% of the time in the future.

Cylanth · 08-23-2005, 10:22 AM

The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall.

However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had.

Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences.

After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class.

I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse.

Cylanth - Crushbone Server

SunT · 08-23-2005, 07:15 PM

Cylanth wrote:

The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall.

However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had.

Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences.

After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class.

I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse.

Cylanth - Crushbone Server

Possitives, and I am not sure they outwiegh the negatives...

We have a substantial increase in DPS. Not nerfed. Re-read descriptions, recasts etc.

Better debuffs earlier.

More things we can do on Riad Mobs.

No more breezing entire raids.

Pet to make solo possible again.

Negatives:

Huge nerf of CC.

Huge Nerf of Buffs, stat etc, regen is relative.

Huge nerf of Group invis.

Nerf of Speechless and all power drains. Too long a recast timer to make them effective. Small groups will suffer imensly, full groups will not notice the difference.

Flipmode · 08-23-2005, 07:32 PM

SunTsu wrote:

Cylanth wrote:

The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall.

However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had.

Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences.

After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class.

I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse.

Cylanth - Crushbone Server

Possitives, and I am not sure they outwiegh the negatives...

We have a substantial increase in DPS. Not nerfed. Re-read descriptions, recasts etc.

Better debuffs earlier.

More things we can do on Riad Mobs.

No more breezing entire raids.

Pet to make solo possible again.

Negatives:

Huge nerf of CC.

Huge Nerf of Buffs, stat etc, regen is relative.

Huge nerf of Group invis.

Nerf of Speechless and all power drains. Too long a recast timer to make them effective. Small groups will suffer imensly, full groups will not notice the difference.

when it all boils down to it, only our AoE's received any meaning ful upgrade. Our DD spells were lowered and then given back to us at 50+. Most of our DoT's (bread and butter) no longer stack so that lowers our overall DPS. Basically they gave us a pet to fill in the rest but it doesnt do that much damage in all honesty. Hate to say it but we dont even out DPS tanks post revamp, unless we fight multiple mobs.

Kuragi · 08-23-2005, 08:47 PM

Cylanth wrote:
The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall.

However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had.

Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences.

After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class.

I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse.

Cylanth - Crushbone Server

The thing you have to remember is that it isn't just our spells that have been changed. Mob hit points and dps has been changed, too. Other classes dps have been changed. Pow costs have been changed. Looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. That said, there's a tear in my eye for the nerfing of Speechless...

KniteShayd · 08-24-2005, 05:44 AM

Ooooh yeah. All this about dopple ganger and all these other spells, all nice and all, but what about those that are getting up to all of your levels? I now know what i have to look forward to, but what about MY current state? Have you mentored down a couple of tiers to see how we solo there? How about mentoring down to see how our nuking, or lack there of, works? Mentor down to see about our utility and crowd control? like i sed, if your lvl 45+ pat yourself on the back. I'm only lvl 34, and i want to make it to at least lvl 50 before i have to giv up. Try soloing at lvl 30 then let us all know if making a chanter was really worth it. All we hear about is the end game, i wanna kno about people my level. Just like the quest is called, the journey is half the fun, will it be for the rest of us on our way to the top?

Message Edited by KniteShayd on 08-23-2005 07:46 PM

PigLick · 08-24-2005, 08:11 AM

Edit: removed derailment and responded in the new appropriate thread. PigLick

Message Edited by PigLickJF on 08-23-2005 09:13 PM

mio · 08-24-2005, 05:15 PM

Looking at the numbers tell at least one story : As we speak we're not able to group invis and group see invis at the same time. How can a group see invis spell require 3 concentration slots? By mistake? More stories needed? Did they also forgot one Zero at the end of that 57 nuke damage? If they really Had to nerf invis why did they gave us a solo invis at level 52 that can invis up to 58 in adept I if your 53 (i saw the screen from a beta tester somewhere on this forum) Ok then they have to assume they made other big mistakes like that one and push back theyr release. Yes i know they would lose some money but they could for once gain something else : credits. Don't take me wrong, my /sarcasm are for the devs nobody else, but, guys, let me tell you this : i never considered re-rolling, now i do :smileysad:

ryuk · 08-25-2005, 09:18 AM

I agree that Ill's will now be exactly what thier supposed to do.

which is....

Dps with a huge chunk of support mixed in with some pet action!

^_^ eat it.

Snive · 08-25-2005, 10:30 AM

Can you honestly say that the Illusioinist is a DPS class now? Can we answer the "Group looking for DPS!" call? Where exactly is this huge chunk of support? Support meaning utility that has spread out to other classes. Some of which can do much better than us. Since when is an Illusionist supposed to be a pet class?

seamo · 08-25-2005, 12:18 PM

Ryuker , We get very little dps upgrade and as for this so called huge chunk of support pray tell what is it ?

Simply put the amount of dps we do get in no way makes up for all the utilities we lost or which were so nerfed we wont bother to use them .

Yes the pet will be nice , we can finally solo effectively .

Sea

Oghi · 08-25-2005, 12:23 PM

The DPS upgrade is pretty dramatic, actually. Take a peek at some of the parses recently posted here. I do not know how we'll compare with other mages, but it's far better than what we have now.

Message Edited by Oghier on 08-25-2005 01:31 AM

seamo · 08-25-2005, 01:16 PM

Oghier i agree it is a nice piece of dps , but do you honestly feel it makes up for all we gave up ? I don't personally .

I feel we should have our invis restored and haste should not take a concentration slot .. those our my big issues not really the amount of dps nor the lowered insight ( but am concerned about the power as other testers have stated to running low on power ) . I love the idea of finally having a pet that can actually tank for us . I did not care for the one we have now . dumb pet lol

Sea

Neverborn · 08-25-2005, 09:42 PM

can you point me to these parses? And keep in mind while our AoE (which is really the only place we've gone up in DPS significantly) is better now... So is everybody elses. Wizards and Warlocks... holy god, they blow us out of the water. We needed DPS increase RELATIVE to other classes, and none of the utility nerf... we got neither imo.

-Myrid

Count_Drakenkor · 08-26-2005, 11:01 PM

Sometimes I cant believe what I am reading. Is it really so hard to see that all of our spells are set up to provide much more dps?

Is it not obvious that now the issue with casting is our recast timers as opposed to the cast timers of spells?

We can cast our DD(1 second), and 2 dots(1 sec a piece) in the same time it took to cast the DD on live. We cast Psychotic spectrum in 2 seconds. You can then cast prismatic havoc/discord which at adept 3 pumps about 1800 damage(i use this spell a lot). Dynamism is just plain sick damage. It procs 20% of the time and was doing 300ish dmg at adept 1 and does over 500 at master 2.

On live we can only maintain about 3 spells chain casting before they refresh. On beta we can use nearly all of them!

The spells, yes the DD and the dots are significantly better on beta. "Just because of the cast time??" you might ask. YES!!!

Does the dps make up for the change in utility? That is something everyonehas to decide for themselves. In my opinion, we got upgraded(taking general utility and general dps as a whole) on both.

Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on 08-26-2005 12:02 PM

KaynanEmberwood · 08-26-2005, 11:43 PM

Count_Drakenkorin wrote:

Sometimes I cant believe what I am reading. Is it really so hard to see that all of our spells are set up to provide much more dps?

Is it not obvious that now the issue with casting is our recast timers as opposed to the cast timers of spells?

We can cast our DD(1 second), and 2 dots(1 sec a piece) in the same time it took to cast the DD on live. We cast Psychotic spectrum in 2 seconds. You can then cast prismatic havoc/discord which at adept 3 pumps about 1800 damage(i use this spell a lot). Dynamism is just plain sick damage. It procs 20% of the time and was doing 300ish dmg at adept 1 and does over 500 at master 2.

On live we can only maintain about 3 spells chain casting before they refresh. On beta we can use nearly all of them!

The spells, yes the DD and the dots are significantly better on beta. "Just because of the cast time??" you might ask. YES!!!

Does the dps make up for the change in utility? That is something everyonehas to decide for themselves. In my opinion, we got upgraded(taking general utility and general dps as a whole) on both.
Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on 08-26-2005 12:02 PM

After playing around on beta for a while longer I certainly can't disagree with the fact that our dps has gone up. I would probably even go as far as to say the class is more fun to play in it's new form as well. I am still trying to get spells I consider "broken" fixed however. I guess it's the EQ1 chanter part of me that joined EQ2 and was sad to see Mez considered "non-essential", and now is seeing it become even less meaningful and less useful. I suppose I wanted a bigger tradeoff for having what I considered my class defining skill reduced in effectiveness. I just have to let go I guess SMILEY

Snive · 08-27-2005, 12:42 AM

Here's the issue though. Our DPS has increased. However, it has increased to what it at least should have been on the current live. With our current live 'utility' and the revamped DPS, the DPS is still a little low considering our nuke spell still will only hit for ~300. The revamped DPS doesn't come with our current live utility though, it comes with even less utility. We Illusionists had a hard time soloing, but we did it and we wore it as a badge of honor. Now on test Illusionists are soloing better than they did on live because in all honesty anything will be faster than it is on live. So yes we are better off in that respect, but it is where we should have been before all this revamping. The utility of class is ability to multiple things that benefit its current situation. Our current utility is arguable. It's there, but most is not utilized. It's pretty much Breeze and Speechless, unless you are in that elegant group that likes mezz. Was that utility worth our shameful DPS? Come revamp our utility is lessened. Now: Very low DPS and Utility. Expansion/Revamp: Raised to Low DPS and dropped to Low Utility Stop using our ability to solo better than we do now as a measuring stick. This is not what the class is about. There are some trees and there is a forest. Which do you see?

Arioch · 08-27-2005, 02:04 AM

I agree totally with Snivers. I have a 50th Illusionist and I choose the class due to its utility capability and that it allows much diversity in a combat situation. I love our abilities to CC, pump mana, haste, etc. Sure we get a boost in DPS with the upcoming change but from what I have seen it definately does not warrent them nerfing any of our other abilities. It is as you said where the class should have been from day one (test DPS additions + live utilities).

I hope the dev's come to their sense and put our utilities back where they should be before going live.

08-17-2005, 06:52 PM	#31
Lik Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona, US Posts: 39	Was the level left reduced as well? I remember in Saden's pictures it showed group invis as L40 invis at M1. I'm not sure if this falls under the NDA or not, and I certainly don't want you guys to break it, but in general are you fairly impressed with the expansion? And do we remain having a cool role as we have been changed to in 1-50? If that starts getting into shades of grey for the NDA, just tell me ya can't answer it, as I said I wouldn't want to see yall getting into trouble. Message Edited by Likky on 08-17-2005 12:33 PM __________________ Kalani Chantra - Illusionist [Antonia Bayle] Xylia - Enchanter [Test]

08-17-2005, 09:05 PM	#32
SunT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 821	Azamien-Dermorate wrote: Lynx wrote: How about the duration and recast timers? Those bothered me more then the runspeed reduction . Couplled with the runspeed reduction though it made it a worthless skill. Grp invis duration is 2.5mins Recast is 15s No (or very minimal) slowdown on runspeed. Much better! (Beta) Thanks, that is better. Still not great but better then what I heard at first. It still isnt very long duration but atleast the recast timer is a bit more resonalble. Still not going to be used for much because 2.5 isnt much duration for runing thru places like Sol Eye.. There are a ton more see invis this week than last on Live. So the 2.5 min might not make much of a difference. I was lucky to have it up for one min last night in Perma. I can live with it if there is a 15 sec recast. __________________ Retired Roamin Nome, 70 Illusionist/60Jeweler Crack Bot, Nektulos Argyll, 60 Paladin / Heresy, 62 Defiler

08-18-2005, 08:44 PM	#34
SunT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 821	EL has see invis mobs all over it now. Groups of 3-4 and one of them can see invis. Mostly around choke points like the run to foomby or in the middle where you do the Jboots path. LS has see invis giants and golems all over for the run to open the portal. You can avoid them in most areas but the narrows near the portal you usually have to train or fight. Perma used to only have see invis roamers on the first floor and once in a great while I would see them up above. There are also occasional see invis non-named stationary that I never saw before the last two weeks. SE and Nek Castle seem unchanged to me. __________________ Retired Roamin Nome, 70 Illusionist/60Jeweler Crack Bot, Nektulos Argyll, 60 Paladin / Heresy, 62 Defiler

08-18-2005, 09:05 PM	#35
MilkToa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 490	ToePeg wrote: In Permafrost maybe there are more see-invis, but Lavastorm, Solusek Eye, EL, RV, Nek Castle, etc. etc. are unchanged. Where are these see invis mobs you're talking about? Loosing group invis is a killer to the small group's play style. Basically the world is going to get at least 20% smaller because you simply won't have the time to hammer our way there. What I don't get is why hasn't this change been made across the board to all see-invis spells. Illisionists are the only one getting nerfed - the fury one is now even longer! (Yeah sure there's a run speed change for furies - but it's duration that matters. Heck slower run speed makes it even easier to keep groups together so that's a wash IMO.) It needs to be at least long enough to handle the LD player case because otherwise a small group is going to wipe. That'd be 10 minutes for instances. Put it to that & full run speed and small groups will still be able to have access to the parts of EQ2 they can get to now with equivalent survability. Duration is way more important than runspeed and recast. The illisionist group invis simply has to be longer or we're likely to leave. Make it a training option? Toepeg 50 Illisionist of Oggok All group inivisbility spells are changing, not just illusionists. My understanding is there will be 2 types of group invisibility; a 2.5 minute invis with no speed penalty or a 10 minute invis (maybe a little longer) with a major speed penalty (around 40%).

08-19-2005, 06:34 AM	#37
Impetus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 340	Swashbucklers, also. That makes four. There's only 6 healing classes. That is "make or break" for small groups, large groups, and even raids! The reason it seems like almost nobody gets group invis is that illusionists, swashbucklers, and brigands are three of the least-played classes. Furies aren't much higher, either, and their group invis isn't until the mid-40s. ToePeg wrote: What I don't get is why hasn't this change been made across the board to all see-invis spells. Illisionists are the only one getting nerfed - the fury one is now even longer! (Yeah sure there's a run speed change for furies - but it's duration that matters. Heck slower run speed makes it even easier to keep groups together so that's a wash IMO.) Haha, agreed! I'd much rather have a long duration with a significant slowdown than a short duration with no slowdown. __________________ ------------------------------------------------------ Aylowan, 70 Illusionist, Blackburrow

08-18-2005, 08:16 PM	#33
ToeP Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 27	In Permafrost maybe there are more see-invis, but Lavastorm, Solusek Eye, EL, RV, Nek Castle, etc. etc. are unchanged. Where are these see invis mobs you're talking about? Loosing group invis is a killer to the small group's play style. Basically the world is going to get at least 20% smaller because you simply won't have the time to hammer our way there. What I don't get is why hasn't this change been made across the board to all see-invis spells. Illisionists are the only one getting nerfed - the fury one is now even longer! (Yeah sure there's a run speed change for furies - but it's duration that matters. Heck slower run speed makes it even easier to keep groups together so that's a wash IMO.) It needs to be at least long enough to handle the LD player case because otherwise a small group is going to wipe. That'd be 10 minutes for instances. Put it to that & full run speed and small groups will still be able to have access to the parts of EQ2 they can get to now with equivalent survability. Duration is way more important than runspeed and recast. The illisionist group invis simply has to be longer or we're likely to leave. Make it a training option? Toepeg 50 Illisionist of Oggok

08-19-2005, 04:40 AM	#36
PigLick Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 370	Also, a bit of food for thought here. Only a few classes get group invis currently, right? Illus, fury's and brigands (I think?) are the only ones I know of. If group invis is really so important that losing it "is a killer to the small group's playstyle," and yet only a few groups will have it available, that may be a good argument that it's overpowered as it is. I don't know much about group invis and I'm not saying what they've done to it is a good or fair change, but any ability that only one or a few classes have that can "make or break" a group's playability should be looked at a little more closely. PigLick

08-19-2005, 02:36 PM	#38
zit General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 573	PigLickJF wrote: Also, a bit of food for thought here. Only a few classes get group invis currently, right? Illus, fury's and brigands (I think?) are the only ones I know of. If group invis is really so important that losing it "is a killer to the small group's playstyle," and yet only a few groups will have it available, that may be a good argument that it's overpowered as it is. I don't know much about group invis and I'm not saying what they've done to it is a good or fair change, but any ability that only one or a few classes have that can "make or break" a group's playability should be looked at a little more closely. PigLick If group invis were considered so much overpowered by the Devs, it would not make any sense to only change invis of 2 classes to short duration, while leaving 2 other classes at 10 and 15 mins. The main reason for this change seems to me is that Swashbuckler complained about caster invis. If they had complained about healer invis I am pretty sure that it would be the furies now who get the short duration invis, while ours would stay at 15 mins and not the other way round. Actually fury get duration of invis increased from 10 to 15 mins. And although they get a movement penalty now, don’t forget they can make up for some of it by their run speed buff. The most annoying about all this is, that those who complained about our invis didn’t seem to even have an idea what classes get group invis beside swashbucklers. As they basically did bring up 2 arguments when asking for the nerf. The one was that swashbuckler should be utility rogues, yet caster get better group invis and thus rendering one of swash main utility useless. The other was that caster can outdamage them and its not fair that caster also get the better invis. We all know that these arguments are flawed. Enchanter have been considered even more an utility class than swash and for sure couldn’t outdamage them, so who if not enchanter should get the best group invis? However, the only thing they seemed to know is that it is a “caster” invis and as “caster” usually is connected with “sorcerer”, they asked for nerf. And SOE of course listens to their customers. :smileywink:

08-19-2005, 11:00 PM	#39
Demi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1	I'd be willing to bet that the change to group invis has less to do with swashies calling for a nerf and more to do with the devs wanting to introduce some thought to travel. I get the feeling that it's supposed to be situational, rather than a tool for bypassing content. Running down to naggy needs to involve some effort, not putting up invis, sticking af on the leader and going to get a coffee.

08-20-2005, 12:13 AM	#40
zit General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 573	Huh???? What thought to travel gets introduced here? The thought that you cannot chose between 4 invis classes anymore, but only 2 ? Yea, this sure will add some more effort to Naggy runs. More effort to find an inviser....

08-22-2005, 03:00 PM	#41
Spellbounders Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 77	Andychaves wrote: Thank you for your input. As I or my group members never really realised the real usefulness of Dynamism and Legerity (they kept saying they didnt notice any difference) I wonder what is the benefit of casting Dynamism on a wizard? Yllyana, level 50 Illusionist Dynamism is now a spell-casting proc. Does ~300 damage whenever a hostile spell is successfully cast. Prismatic Strife is the same thing, but it does that amount of damage after three successful melee attacks. __________________ I'm fine. Everything's fine like wine.

08-23-2005, 08:53 AM	#42
JuddBal Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4	Dynamism is a huge buff. For 1 conc slot, all of your target spells include a nice mental nuke. This turns your debuff cycle into a medium dps routine. Just watch agro. It adds significant dmg/mana ratio and dps increase to your dots and nukes. It processes on each target of the aoes. I don't know if it double procs along with Prismatic Strife, but I'd guess not since that isn't our spell landing on the mob per se. Things to consider, root, stuns, stifle will all include this effect. The real win is Mez. Since mez works while running, not only can you mez while running, you can nuke while running too. Absolutely huge. The mez effect will land alongside the mental dmg portion. I know that prismatic strife shows our dmg component as orange numbers. I forgot to check if dynamism works this way. During my first night, I was able to achieve DPS > 800. Be careful with this tool, it can kill you.

08-23-2005, 09:13 AM	#43
JuddBal Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4	Correction, I spoke too soon. Dynamism might only process about 20% of the time in the future.

08-23-2005, 10:22 AM	#44
Cylanth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 68	The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall. However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had. Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences. After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class. I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse. Cylanth - Crushbone Server

08-23-2005, 07:15 PM	#45
SunT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 821	Cylanth wrote: The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall. However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had. Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences. After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class. I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse. Cylanth - Crushbone Server Possitives, and I am not sure they outwiegh the negatives... We have a substantial increase in DPS. Not nerfed. Re-read descriptions, recasts etc. Better debuffs earlier. More things we can do on Riad Mobs. No more breezing entire raids. Pet to make solo possible again. Negatives: Huge nerf of CC. Huge Nerf of Buffs, stat etc, regen is relative. Huge nerf of Group invis. Nerf of Speechless and all power drains. Too long a recast timer to make them effective. Small groups will suffer imensly, full groups will not notice the difference. __________________ Retired Roamin Nome, 70 Illusionist/60Jeweler Crack Bot, Nektulos Argyll, 60 Paladin / Heresy, 62 Defiler

08-23-2005, 07:32 PM	#46
Flipmode Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	SunTsu wrote: Cylanth wrote: The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall. However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had. Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences. After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class. I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse. Cylanth - Crushbone Server Possitives, and I am not sure they outwiegh the negatives... We have a substantial increase in DPS. Not nerfed. Re-read descriptions, recasts etc. Better debuffs earlier. More things we can do on Riad Mobs. No more breezing entire raids. Pet to make solo possible again. Negatives: Huge nerf of CC. Huge Nerf of Buffs, stat etc, regen is relative. Huge nerf of Group invis. Nerf of Speechless and all power drains. Too long a recast timer to make them effective. Small groups will suffer imensly, full groups will not notice the difference. when it all boils down to it, only our AoE's received any meaning ful upgrade. Our DD spells were lowered and then given back to us at 50+. Most of our DoT's (bread and butter) no longer stack so that lowers our overall DPS. Basically they gave us a pet to fill in the rest but it doesnt do that much damage in all honesty. Hate to say it but we dont even out DPS tanks post revamp, unless we fight multiple mobs.

08-23-2005, 08:47 PM	#47
Kuragi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 33	Cylanth wrote: The original post sounded very positive about the Spell changes, gave me some hope that Illusionists would come out with a decent upgrade overall. However, after looking at the all the spell descriptions, it looks to me that we got an across the board nerf on utility, dps, and buffs. I fail to see the optimisim that the original poster had. Would the original poster (or someone else on test/beta server) please reply with how these changes improve the Illusionist class? Please provide examples and real world experiences. After looking at those spell changes, I have lost a lot of hope for this class. I have played only one class in my entire EQ2 career. From beta, to the 2nd level 50 illusionist on my server, I have been with this class since the beginning. Now, I see that the entire class is being transformed, and it looks like for the worse. Cylanth - Crushbone Server The thing you have to remember is that it isn't just our spells that have been changed. Mob hit points and dps has been changed, too. Other classes dps have been changed. Pow costs have been changed. Looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. That said, there's a tear in my eye for the nerfing of Speechless... __________________ Toldain Butcherblock http://www.toldaintalks.blogspot.com

08-24-2005, 05:44 AM	#48
KniteShayd Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,190	Ooooh yeah. All this about dopple ganger and all these other spells, all nice and all, but what about those that are getting up to all of your levels? I now know what i have to look forward to, but what about MY current state? Have you mentored down a couple of tiers to see how we solo there? How about mentoring down to see how our nuking, or lack there of, works? Mentor down to see about our utility and crowd control? like i sed, if your lvl 45+ pat yourself on the back. I'm only lvl 34, and i want to make it to at least lvl 50 before i have to giv up. Try soloing at lvl 30 then let us all know if making a chanter was really worth it. All we hear about is the end game, i wanna kno about people my level. Just like the quest is called, the journey is half the fun, will it be for the rest of us on our way to the top? Message Edited by KniteShayd on 08-23-2005 07:46 PM

08-24-2005, 08:11 AM	#49
PigLick Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 370	Edit: removed derailment and responded in the new appropriate thread. PigLick Message Edited by PigLickJF on 08-23-2005 09:13 PM

08-24-2005, 05:15 PM	#50
mio Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	Looking at the numbers tell at least one story : As we speak we're not able to group invis and group see invis at the same time. How can a group see invis spell require 3 concentration slots? By mistake? More stories needed? Did they also forgot one Zero at the end of that 57 nuke damage? If they really Had to nerf invis why did they gave us a solo invis at level 52 that can invis up to 58 in adept I if your 53 (i saw the screen from a beta tester somewhere on this forum) Ok then they have to assume they made other big mistakes like that one and push back theyr release. Yes i know they would lose some money but they could for once gain something else : credits. Don't take me wrong, my /sarcasm are for the devs nobody else, but, guys, let me tell you this : i never considered re-rolling, now i do :smileysad: __________________ Cylanel the Loyal - illusionist 56 (account closed 01/30/06) Mioss - illusionist 63 retired (EQ1) Kelath - Dragon 62/53 retired (Horizon) Quote : don't say 'Gone like the dinosaurs', Say 'gone like Ever2 illusionists' Quote : 'Hey you Boter!! I am no bot, it's just my mana generator' Quote : 'We can't zone out the mana battery, the player behind the screen fell asleep hours ago' Quote : 'Where is that plague coming from?' 'Horizon(tm)' Quote : 'Where as it gone?', 'The way of the illusionist, of course' Quote : 'Loading, please wait' Quote : 'Your spells are too weak for this target' (no you're kidding)

08-25-2005, 09:18 AM	#51
ryuk Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 6	I agree that Ill's will now be exactly what thier supposed to do. which is.... Dps with a huge chunk of support mixed in with some pet action! ^_^ eat it. __________________ Enchanters.. we own you just dont know why.

08-25-2005, 10:30 AM	#52
Snive Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 20	Can you honestly say that the Illusioinist is a DPS class now? Can we answer the "Group looking for DPS!" call? Where exactly is this huge chunk of support? Support meaning utility that has spread out to other classes. Some of which can do much better than us. Since when is an Illusionist supposed to be a pet class? __________________ Snivers Phizzlebottom:Codex of Destiny Patron Saint of the Strategic Withdrawal.

08-25-2005, 12:18 PM	#53
seamo Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15	Ryuker , We get very little dps upgrade and as for this so called huge chunk of support pray tell what is it ? Simply put the amount of dps we do get in no way makes up for all the utilities we lost or which were so nerfed we wont bother to use them . Yes the pet will be nice , we can finally solo effectively . Sea

08-25-2005, 12:23 PM	#54
Oghi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 331	The DPS upgrade is pretty dramatic, actually. Take a peek at some of the parses recently posted here. I do not know how we'll compare with other mages, but it's far better than what we have now. Message Edited by Oghier on 08-25-2005 01:31 AM __________________ Oghier Sleepytoes, Dwarf Bartender Aramur, Illusionist Arcane Masters, Antonia Bayle

08-25-2005, 01:16 PM	#55
seamo Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15	Oghier i agree it is a nice piece of dps , but do you honestly feel it makes up for all we gave up ? I don't personally . I feel we should have our invis restored and haste should not take a concentration slot .. those our my big issues not really the amount of dps nor the lowered insight ( but am concerned about the power as other testers have stated to running low on power ) . I love the idea of finally having a pet that can actually tank for us . I did not care for the one we have now . dumb pet lol Sea

08-25-2005, 09:42 PM	#56
Neverborn General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 117	can you point me to these parses? And keep in mind while our AoE (which is really the only place we've gone up in DPS significantly) is better now... So is everybody elses. Wizards and Warlocks... holy god, they blow us out of the water. We needed DPS increase RELATIVE to other classes, and none of the utility nerf... we got neither imo. -Myrid

08-26-2005, 11:01 PM	#57
Count_Drakenkor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	Sometimes I cant believe what I am reading. Is it really so hard to see that all of our spells are set up to provide much more dps? Is it not obvious that now the issue with casting is our recast timers as opposed to the cast timers of spells? We can cast our DD(1 second), and 2 dots(1 sec a piece) in the same time it took to cast the DD on live. We cast Psychotic spectrum in 2 seconds. You can then cast prismatic havoc/discord which at adept 3 pumps about 1800 damage(i use this spell a lot). Dynamism is just plain sick damage. It procs 20% of the time and was doing 300ish dmg at adept 1 and does over 500 at master 2. On live we can only maintain about 3 spells chain casting before they refresh. On beta we can use nearly all of them! The spells, yes the DD and the dots are significantly better on beta. "Just because of the cast time??" you might ask. YES!!! Does the dps make up for the change in utility? That is something everyonehas to decide for themselves. In my opinion, we got upgraded(taking general utility and general dps as a whole) on both. Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on 08-26-2005 12:02 PM __________________

08-26-2005, 11:43 PM	#58
KaynanEmberwood Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 198	Count_Drakenkorin wrote: Sometimes I cant believe what I am reading. Is it really so hard to see that all of our spells are set up to provide much more dps? Is it not obvious that now the issue with casting is our recast timers as opposed to the cast timers of spells? We can cast our DD(1 second), and 2 dots(1 sec a piece) in the same time it took to cast the DD on live. We cast Psychotic spectrum in 2 seconds. You can then cast prismatic havoc/discord which at adept 3 pumps about 1800 damage(i use this spell a lot). Dynamism is just plain sick damage. It procs 20% of the time and was doing 300ish dmg at adept 1 and does over 500 at master 2. On live we can only maintain about 3 spells chain casting before they refresh. On beta we can use nearly all of them! The spells, yes the DD and the dots are significantly better on beta. "Just because of the cast time??" you might ask. YES!!! Does the dps make up for the change in utility? That is something everyonehas to decide for themselves. In my opinion, we got upgraded(taking general utility and general dps as a whole) on both. Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on 08-26-2005 12:02 PM After playing around on beta for a while longer I certainly can't disagree with the fact that our dps has gone up. I would probably even go as far as to say the class is more fun to play in it's new form as well. I am still trying to get spells I consider "broken" fixed however. I guess it's the EQ1 chanter part of me that joined EQ2 and was sad to see Mez considered "non-essential", and now is seeing it become even less meaningful and less useful. I suppose I wanted a bigger tradeoff for having what I considered my class defining skill reduced in effectiveness. I just have to let go I guess __________________ Kaisa 53rd Illusionist of Antonia Bayle

08-27-2005, 12:42 AM	#59
Snive Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 20	Here's the issue though. Our DPS has increased. However, it has increased to what it at least should have been on the current live. With our current live 'utility' and the revamped DPS, the DPS is still a little low considering our nuke spell still will only hit for ~300. The revamped DPS doesn't come with our current live utility though, it comes with even less utility. We Illusionists had a hard time soloing, but we did it and we wore it as a badge of honor. Now on test Illusionists are soloing better than they did on live because in all honesty anything will be faster than it is on live. So yes we are better off in that respect, but it is where we should have been before all this revamping. The utility of class is ability to multiple things that benefit its current situation. Our current utility is arguable. It's there, but most is not utilized. It's pretty much Breeze and Speechless, unless you are in that elegant group that likes mezz. Was that utility worth our shameful DPS? Come revamp our utility is lessened. Now: Very low DPS and Utility. Expansion/Revamp: Raised to Low DPS and dropped to Low Utility Stop using our ability to solo better than we do now as a measuring stick. This is not what the class is about. There are some trees and there is a forest. Which do you see? __________________ Snivers Phizzlebottom:Codex of Destiny Patron Saint of the Strategic Withdrawal.

08-27-2005, 02:04 AM	#60
Arioch Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5	I agree totally with Snivers. I have a 50th Illusionist and I choose the class due to its utility capability and that it allows much diversity in a combat situation. I love our abilities to CC, pump mana, haste, etc. Sure we get a boost in DPS with the upcoming change but from what I have seen it definately does not warrent them nerfing any of our other abilities. It is as you said where the class should have been from day one (test DPS additions + live utilities). I hope the dev's come to their sense and put our utilities back where they should be before going live.