What's so good about Illusionists?

[nefertitee]

I'm a lvl 24 Illusionist, I know, it's not far. I'm just aksing, can any high levels give me some good feedback on higher end Illusionists? Like, what good they do in raids and groups, and stuff? Since in some threads I've read Mez is pretty much not usefull, and we lack DP's. + We should have uber cool Illusions... were Illusionists and all these other classes get better Illusions

[Morphine]

We are probably one of the highest DPS classes in the game, depending on how you look at it. 

 

 

A group with a good illusionist will gain XP at a significantly faster rate than a group without one.  Don't let the naysayers tell you differently.  If you play your class well you will get multiple tells upon logging on to join people's groups.

[Oghi]

Morphine.. no offense, but "we are probably one of the highest DPS classes in the game?"   What way do you have to look at it, exactly?  Because at 40+, illusionists will generally outdamage only the main healer in most encounters.   I suppose if you're one of those "Breeze is a DPS spell" people, you might think we're a damaging class.  But I could then make the case that my provisioner is a DPS class, too

Message Edited by Oghier on 04-09-2005 10:43 PM

[nefertitee]

i did read a lot of posts. and they were all like "we are sucky dps!" "we need better illusions!"

[auk]

Learn when to mez, and when not to mez. Use Breeze on those who need it, Haste on the melees. Use your stifle, especially on caster type mobs (overwhelming silence at your level, Speechless in a few more levels). Use your DoTs, DDs, add a little direct DPS. Frankly, while you may get outdamaged by a lot of other classes, your DPS at that level should still be pretty good. You'll start to feel it not measuring up around level 35. We are quite a good class. We need some improvements in the DPS department, and some better illusions would be nice. Just try to have fun.

[nefertitee]

THANKSTHANKS! it's just rly hard to get a group for some reason

[Molovi]

The problem is that many players don't realize the power that the illusionist brings to the  group.  Many of our abilities are

indirect and are not easy to measure or even notice by others.  At higher levels or when players start to group regularly with illusionists

they start to notice how much faster and easier things go with an illusionist in a group than when not in the group, then you start

to get lots of tells and guilds start to want illusionists.  Illusionists arte still pretty rare and many players don't know how to play

with them in a group but when they do they want to have one to group with regularly.  I even get tells from other guilds

trying to steal me from my current one as many guilds don't even have one illusionist. 

 

[IpseDix]

Illusionists one of the highest DPS class in game ??????

Buddy ... I don't know what you are smoking but I want some !!!!! 

When you see 100 posts and 95 are saying "Illus have the worst DPS in game", "Illus are the worst class to soloing" , "Illus have the worst illusionis in game " and then you see 5 posts saying "We roll", "we are great" , " we are the best"" .. and so on,

THEN ask yourself how is telling lies 

[Hirebra]

People who like their class don't waste their time replying to people who hate it.. unless they are like me. Illusionists make the impossible possible. If the group is not challenging itself then yes, some other class such as a wizard or assasin might be useful. But when you pull a group of red ^^, or two encounters decide to ambush you at the same time, or the fight lasts so long that everyone runs out of mana, who ya gonna call? The illusionist!

[nefertitee]

THANKS GUYS! <3

[Darmash]

Side effect : we are so few that we can buy our level 45+ spells at Adept I for down to 3 g. Tell this to a Templar !

[gnsengt]

What Morphine meant about chanters being the highest dps in the game is that:1. We have crazy buffs Haste, Intensity, Mana Regen   This allows for hardly any downtime and more dps due to haste spells.2. Best CC     Less death more xpWe create the highest dps Fights go by real fast with a good chanter in the group.

[MsTak]

yep, that is right about our buffs creating DPS in a group.

 

Without an illusionist, the DPS can't produce the powerful hits fight after fight and the battles are a bit slower. 

 

With an illusionist you can have non stop pulls and the debuffs move the fight along really quick.  Adds are not as stressful cause you can pause their attack.

 

So in essence, the good about the illusionist is that they speed things up, which means you get more experience during your play time.

 

A solo illusionist, on the other hand, is a sorry site indeed.  The weak DPS combined with the low HP is not strong enough to take on yellows (unless you mezz, rest, continue). 

 

The root spell (the one I have anyway) doesn't last like it should and breaks often.   My debuffs are too slow when soloing (if I'm not getting hit they are fine) and I'm so busy attacking on mob that I don't have the ability to manage an add (and mezz it ever 30 seconds). 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my character.  I don't have trouble getting a group (well no more than any other level 38 on a light server) and I've accepted the fact I'm not going to solo.  If people don't want me to mezz I'm perfectly happy debuffing, handing out mind candy and poking the mob with a stick. 

 

[Spymast]

Totally agree about our DPS is from buff. Group with illusionist the group can keep fighting for long period. If you are doing "ice anf fire" quest or killing some epic mob(group x 4 with 3 arrow). you will know our real power. we create DPS and power regen keep all ppl in raid wont become out of power. I really dont wont self DPS increase. What happen if we got better DD and dot ? so we become a wizard ? Then why dont we are wizard.

 

If you are playing illusionist/enchater. Please remember our role in game. we are not DPS but we increase DPS in group in raid. we are supplement class. If you really want DPS then go play other class.

 

 

P.S. in MMORPG world, there is no "super class" like in single mode RPG. Just wish SoE can fix class balance soon and fix our spell that match our role.

Message Edited by Spymaster on 04-15-2005 11:54 AM

[Oghi]

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Spymaster wrote:

we are supplement class. If you really want DPS then go play other class.

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Spymaster:

1) There is no "supplement" archetype.  The archetypes are Warrior (Tanking), Priest (Healing), Mage (DPS) and Scout (DPS).  Enchanters are mages.  This is the design foundation for all of EQ2's class mechanics

2) If you wish to play a class whose only skills are to "supplement," then you are essentially a buff-bot.  Some players like this role -- they have posted thoughts similar to yours.  Most players, however, find little long-term interest or challenge in casting Breeze-line spells on a group/ raid, then watching them kill the target.  Adding in the occasional Haste doesn't add much excitement.  Everyone loves having a buff-bot around, but few find that role run.  Yes, you are helping your guild.  But, good grief, aren't you bored?

3) For us to fit in with the archetype system, we need to have better DPS.  Certainly, our ability to enhance others' DPS (Haste) and to mitigate damage (Mezz, Stifles, Drains) is part of the equation -- we should not expect to do sorcerer damage.  However, we should also not expect to do tank or healer damage.  Or, in the current game, *less* than tank or healer damage.

[auk]

I don't like considering Breeze any kind of DPS enhancement. Its an endurance buff. It lets a group fight longer, but it doesn't add to the group's damage. Only over a long period of multiple encounters, it begins to make a difference in damage/time (DPS). Just my thoughts on that.

[Cylanth]

The illusionists who say "if you want to do dps, play a wizard" just dont get it. They are looking at our class through EQ1 glasses : Enchanters = utility. That simply isnt the case in EQ2.   Virtually ALL classes have some "utility" besides their archetypal responsibilites, ie, SoW, evac, tracking, etc.  For the record, the class with the most "utility" are bards, and they do considerably more dps than us. 

 

This is not about us doing wizard style dps.  We dont want that, we dont need it.  This is about how our DPS spells do not scale up properly, as you go up in levels after level 30.  At level 50, my Prismatic Discord Adept III does only 50-100 more damage than my Prismatic Strife.  Yet, the mobs I am fighting at level 50 have 10-20x the amount of hp as the mobs I fought at level 30.  If you are an illusionist, and you dont see the problem in that, then you seriously need to look at your class again.  If you are content on being nothing more than a buffbot, fine.   If you dont see the problem of having no upgrade to Phantasmal Charge, or how our Dots are so weak, or how our AEs dont scale, or how our 50 AEs dont work on triple up mobs, or how Furys, yes a healing class, can consistently outdamage us, than no amount of arguing will get through. 

 

This is not about us "hating" our class. Most people here love being an Illusionist. But, that doesnt mean we cant see the major flaws in the class.

 

Cylanth

50 Illusionist - Crushbone

[Spymast]

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Oghier wrote:

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Spymaster wrote:

we are supplement class. If you really want DPS then go play other class.

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Spymaster:

1) There is no "supplement" archetype.  The archetypes are Warrior (Tanking), Priest (Healing), Mage (DPS) and Scout (DPS).  Enchanters are mages.  This is the design foundation for all of EQ2's class mechanics

2) If you wish to play a class whose only skills are to "supplement," then you are essentially a buff-bot.  Some players like this role -- they have posted thoughts similar to yours.  Most players, however, find little long-term interest or challenge in casting Breeze-line spells on a group/ raid, then watching them kill the target.  Adding in the occasional Haste doesn't add much excitement.  Everyone loves having a buff-bot around, but few find that role run.  Yes, you are helping your guild.  But, good grief, aren't you bored?

3) For us to fit in with the archetype system, we need to have better DPS.  Certainly, our ability to enhance others' DPS (Haste) and to mitigate damage (Mezz, Stifles, Drains) is part of the equation -- we should not expect to do sorcerer damage.  However, we should also not expect to do tank or healer damage.  Or, in the current game, *less* than tank or healer damage.

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I jsut read our role from offical site and manul :

 

We are mage arch-class and we are good DPS when we were mage from lvl 2 to lvl 9. But we suppose to act like supplement/utility class after after lvl10 - we are enchanter. And lvl 20 we are illusionist or coercer. Each time we change our sub-class our role is changed. If you still think at lvl 50 can non-stop "bomb" a mob for 3 different 600dmg  dots stack on  a mob for 200hp per tick. Then you are wrong or SOE already changed our role or they put the wrong thing on site or I am totally lost .....

 

-----------------------------------------

Enchanters use mystical forces to beguile and control their enemies. By instilling confusion and
misdirection in the mind of their adversaries, enchanter give their comrades the advantage in battle.

 

Illusionists use arcane power to confound and befuddle their ememies. They also are able to boost the offensive
and defensive capabilities of their allies

 

Coercers dominate the mind of the weak and hurl their foes into paralyzing states of confusion and catatonia.
They can also enhance the mental abilities and combat prowess of their allies.

-----------------------------------------

 

SoE has defined each class very well. But the fail to implement.

BTW, I am not said the spells' damge from out spell not need fix. but I dont want to become a wizard or a super class can nuke, can tank, can solo epic group x 4. If it happened. Why dont go play back single version RPG.  

 

 

Message Edited by Spymaster on 04-15-2005 09:21 PM

[Dainger]

  I must have missed something.  Cylanth just explained our position clearly.

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Cylanth wrote:

The illusionists who say "if you want to do dps, play a wizard" just dont get it. They are looking at our class through EQ1 glasses : Enchanters = utility. That simply isnt the case in EQ2. 

 

This is not about us doing wizard style dps.  We dont want that, we dont need it.  This is about how our DPS spells do not scale up properly, as you go up in levels after level 30. 

 

This is not about us "hating" our class. Most people here love being an Illusionist. But, that doesnt mean we cant see the major flaws in the class.

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[Oghi]

That's great you read the manual, Spymaster.  My own posts are not based on the manual.  Rather, they are based on what the devs have written, multiple times, about the archetype system and how it is intended to work in EQ2.  Many of those posts were in the beta boards, so they're currently gone.  But, if you really want to play only a "supplement" class.. well, we all get to make our own decisions.  I think you'll find the actual content of this game a poor fit for that desire, though, at least at upper levels.  Every class has "supplements," and... well, never mind.  You'll either agree or not agree when you get there.  Luck.

[zit]

 

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Spymaster wrote:

I jsut read our role from offical site and manul :

 

We are mage arch-class and we are good DPS when we were mage from lvl 2 to lvl 9. But we suppose to act like supplement/utility class after after lvl10 - we are enchanter. And lvl 20 we are illusionist or coercer. Each time we change our sub-class our role is changed....

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Spymaster, when i read the manual i was interpretating it very different.

For me the class description starts with a summary of the role of the archetype. This part you did skip completely when you quoted the manual. Instead you say we are only mages from lvl 2 to lvl 9. Afterwards we become enchanter and then we are illusionist / coercer. And this is not true. I belong to the mage archetype at lvl 50 still and i am still an enchanter even if my subclass is called illusionist then.

 

[zit]

 double post

Message Edited by zitha on 04-16-2005 01:56 AM

[Morphine]

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IpseDixit wrote:

When you see 100 posts and 95 are saying "Illus have the worst DPS in game", "Illus are the worst class to soloing" , "Illus have the worst illusionis in game " and then you see 5 posts saying "We roll", "we are great" , " we are the best"" .. and so on,

THEN ask yourself how is telling lies 

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If you don't "get it" and think DPS has any business being part of an illusionist discussion,  go join your 94 friends that can't seem to find groups.   Me and my 4 fellow illusionists that do "get it" are busy raiding.

[Bobok]

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MorphineEQ wrote:

If you don't "get it" and think DPS has any business being part of an illusionist discussion,  go join your 94 friends that can't seem to find groups.   Me and my 4 fellow illusionists that do "get it" are busy raiding.

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Heh, raids.  Thats funny.  I breeze the entire group, then try to find a safe corner far far out of agro range so I don't die.  I then sit there for the next 14 minutes, run back.  Repeat.

[Vurin]

I'm not gonna lie. I die more than my fair share on raids. but if all you do is cast insight/haste and afk for 10+ minutes. You wouldn't be playing to the class's potential no matter what changes are made. I've noticed a trend of people posting about how on raids all they do is buff. I think someone called it "Golden Child" Syndrome.  Complete bullhoey. Even if you're concerned about aggro there's still plenty of spells you can cast. Sure you should be careful. Dodge the AoEs if your healers are not capable of sitting in it. Keep your distance whenever possible for less chance of aggro. Use blink if you have to. Don't full burn nuke/HOs. Careful does not mean flat out laziness and unwillingness to play your character. And if you happen to die... well so be it. It happens. most cases you can rebuff the important folks in under a minute, or the fights so close to over that your death no longer matters significantly. Don't come here and complain that your playstyle doesn't let you have any fun. Complain that you feel you get too much aggro on raids, complain that the potential for DPS isn't there for your class. Don't complain cause you suck at playing.

[Bobok]

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Vurin wrote:
I'm not gonna lie. I die more than my fair share on raids. but if all you do is cast insight/haste and afk for 10+ minutes. You wouldn't be playing to the class's potential no matter what changes are made.

I've noticed a trend of people posting about how on raids all they do is buff. I think someone called it "Golden Child" Syndrome.  Complete bullhoey. Even if you're concerned about aggro there's still plenty of spells you can cast.

Sure you should be careful. Dodge the AoEs if your healers are not capable of sitting in it. Keep your distance whenever possible for less chance of aggro. Use blink if you have to. Don't full burn nuke/HOs. Careful does not mean flat out laziness and unwillingness to play your character. And if you happen to die... well so be it. It happens. most cases you can rebuff the important folks in under a minute, or the fights so close to over that your death no longer matters significantly.

Don't come here and complain that your playstyle doesn't let you have any fun. Complain that you feel you get too much aggro on raids, complain that the potential for DPS isn't there for your class. Don't complain cause you suck at playing.

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Granted I haven't been on a raid in 5 levels, however I don't have to cast squat.  I stand there, the gurdian pulls, I die.  No spells, no abilities, just the agro from breeze and I'm dead.  The only way around this would be to not buff everyone, and quite frankly buffing everyone will do more for the group than my 50 dps.  My equipment does have some player crafted in it, however its all yellow/orange to me and for the traits where I had the option, I selected agility.  Now maybe you've been raiding with a better tank than I have, I don't know.  But this is not the result of lazyness on my part.

And what are we supposed to do on a raid?  Mez is impossible with 24 people around, plus it won't work on ^^^ mobs.  Stuns, stifles, powerdrains, ect. all have very limited use on raids.  So we are left with dps and buffs.  I'd be more than happy to throw in my dots, but its not worth the 6 minutes worth of casting it takes to rebuff everyone when I get floored.

[Vurin]

If you die on the pull. you need to stand back, or not buff as he pulls. If you die from just breeze aggro you tank needs lessens in how to taunt. Also its worth noting that Lobotomize is a very powerufl DPS debuff when it triggers. Wither Hope is probably among the top 10 for msot mana efficent single target damage spells. Dismay can make a significant difference in dmg taken on mobs like Darathar, nagalik, or the other harder hitting epic mobs. Particularly with Mystic Haze nerf and such. Mind drain can do the same thing for spell casters liek arch Lich. And both lines stack with the Priest/fighter verisions. Sure its not a hgue difference, but it could be the difference between a dead tank and the tank surviving with a sliver of life. Even if you never cast a DoT there's no reason not to cast dismay once the fight is under way. If you don't like that arguement there's always the "You say you die when you don't dot, I say I die when I do DoT... since you're dead either way why not DoT ( or cast your other spells." At any rate my point is this you *should* be able to safely cast some thigns besides buffs while on a raid. If you feel that the margin isn't wide enough, you're welcome to appeal to SoE to apply changes to fix that concern. If you feel you can't cast anything else and thus don't even try. the fault lies with you when you don't feel satisified or otherwise become essentially a buffbot.

[Azamien-Dermorate]

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Vurin wrote:
If you die on the pull. you need to stand back, or not buff as he pulls. If you die from just breeze aggro you tank needs lessens in how to taunt.

Also its worth noting that Lobotomize is a very powerufl DPS debuff when it triggers.
Wither Hope is probably among the top 10 for msot mana efficent single target damage spells.

Dismay can make a significant difference in dmg taken on mobs like Darathar, nagalik, or the other harder hitting epic mobs. Particularly with Mystic Haze nerf and such.
Mind drain can do the same thing for spell casters liek arch Lich. And both lines stack with the Priest/fighter verisions. Sure its not a hgue difference, but it could be the difference between a dead tank and the tank surviving with a sliver of life.

Even if you never cast a DoT there's no reason not to cast dismay once the fight is under way.

If you don't like that arguement there's always the "You say you die when you don't dot, I say I die when I do DoT... since you're dead either way why not DoT ( or cast your other spells."

At any rate my point is this you *should* be able to safely cast some thigns besides buffs while on a raid. If you feel that the margin isn't wide enough, you're welcome to appeal to SoE to apply changes to fix that concern. If you feel you can't cast anything else and thus don't even try. the fault lies with you when you don't feel satisified or otherwise become essentially a buffbot.

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I agree with Vurin, if nothing else, keeping dismay and a couple of dots on raid mobs after power draining (and no we cannot powerdrain raid mobs by ourselves but we can help the others that can drain) makes me feel like I am contributing to the raid, in a way thats more usefull then just being a buff bot

Message Edited by Azamien-Dermorate on 04-18-2005 12:18 PM

[Molovi]

Last night I did a raid mob, my second and I had the same experience on both;  other than most of the spells not working on it the mobs aoe can easily 1 shot an illusionist and the range of the aoe was much greater than spell range for my spells.  Basically, if I want to add anything other than breeze I would have had to run in and out of range and hope the aoe did not hit while I was in spell range.  For a few extra dps, better to buff and stay out of range and save the debt you will share. I would add that I was getting aggro a lot.   Now, I had haste and breeze cast, the main tank was taunting and I have grouped with him beforeand he is good at tanking.  I cast no other spells other than mezzing a minion that was linked and mezzable and after the third mez cast  I was getting aggo that was also 1 shotting me.  I also cast blink and barrier of intellict to try to drop aggro which did nothing Now, never had this problem before in this particular group other than these raid mobs. So, I have to wonder if taunt is actually more  effective than my ability to gain aggro or not.  Either that or taunts are getting resisted where my spells are not so I could be getting more cummulative aggro than even an effective tank can taunt off on some mobs

Message Edited by Molovian on 04-19-2005 07:27 AM

[Vurin]

I could reply more accurately if you mentioned which mob you were fighting. I don't know of a any mob with an AE powerful enough to one shot a lvl 50 caster. There's a couple liek Vaz Gok who do melee dmg AoEs which come close though. As for crazy aggro if you were fighting nagalik well.... everybody dying at random times regardless of what the tank does is pretty much par for the course.