Illusionist multi tasking

[ScamprinSlippy]

There's been some talk in this forum about other classes hitting as many buttons as we do, and that we are whining about being complicated.  I made a tank alt (guardian) so i could learn more about the tank's job, since illusionists largely are working with the tank, (our mezzing is a dismal failure if we can't communicate with a tank).  Do other classes have it easy? No.  Do they hit lots of buttons? Yes.  And they also can have complex situations to deal with like we do as chanters.

 

I was pretty suprised by the difficulty of tanking, not just the act of doing it, but the lack of respect everyone gives to tanks, somehow groups always blame tanks when things go wrong, whether its losing aggro or complaints about being difficult to assist.  Since i played the tank alt i've started watching for taunts with my illusionist, and quite often is someone else fault that aggro breaks.  And everyone in this forum (illusionists) knows perfectly well as an illusionist that those who don't assist are usually the ones at fault, not the tank, the tank often has to switch targets to taunt a full health mob off someone, then switch back to the low health one he was fighting.

 

But... as a tank i SPAM most of my skills, the only reason i slow down is to retain power.  Perhaps other classes do hit tons of buttons, but as one scout said that he had a 16 button rotation in combat, they largely do ROTATIONS.  We don't.  We don't really have a set order of things.  We can't just spam a long line of attack skills.  I do spam a line of skills as a tank, but taunting is of course different along with a few things like stances, but taunting is ONE SPELL LINE.  In other words, i don't care how many buttons other classes use (least not since i made my guardian), the reality is that clicking doesn't mean at all.  If you click a lot and think you embarassed illusionists by saying that in our forum, you embarassed yourself by talking about clicking, rather than management and responsibilities.  If you aren't an illusionist and you hang out in this forum to tell us we whine all the time, please try to understand our real complaint here.  Tanks largely do aggro management.  Enchanters do several things, while having to click redundantly to keep certain basic things going.  The fact that i use lots of skills as a fighter is of no consequence, other than it makes tanking more fun and is good game design to keep it interesting   As a chanter the last thing i do is spam my skills, i have to be checking many things besides recast timers.  If you defend other classes by saying you have a 16 button rotation in combat and compare that to chanters, you have no idea what we do.  We have to pay attention to everyone's power and our breeze recast time, keep the target stiffled, and sit around waiting for the mezz recast time (if the group is big enough), while also maintaining the DOTs that lower magic resistances drastically, and nuking when we can.  Thats not the same as constantly clicking some debuff, some sort of attack and everything else whenever you have the power and the recast time ends.  Also.... our targeting is far worse than other classes.  We don't just assist when fighting on mobs, or click on someone who needs help.  We target many mobs, quite often specifically ones that arent the tank's mob.  Also we often switch targets after nearly every cast... i like that (takes skill), but i dont think other classes realize it.  They click away usually on one or two things.

 

The end result is that i can't always do my job when the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hits the fan, cause i'm also having the hit the snooze button on my breeze alarm clock.  I don't know how many illusionists will admit that, but i think when things get really bad i usually neglect something important, like i don't click that badly needed breeze when the recast time ends becuase im paying attention to mezzing that one last mob, and someone gets too low on mana for comfort.  Some of our job feels like a chore and does little else than get in the way of what we do.  Breezing seems mostly to soak up my time and attention.  I enjoy the responsibility and weight that comes from having the breeze spell, and DO NOT THINK IT IS WEAK OR BROKEN, but I think it does little else than require i click it all the time.  IMO it doesnt add a healthy side to our multi tasking, it just makes things harder and more frustrating.  I like a challenge, otherwise i wouldnt be playing a chanter, but could the challenge of breezing be a little more fun, or be less irritating?  Nothing on my tank alt feels like a chore. With my tank alt, things are very tough when the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hits the fan, but i can always keep up, cause all i have to do is make choices about a few things (taunts and a few other thing that require hardly any clicking), and i have no chores (i wouldn't call their attack skill rotation a chore).  That doesnt mean as a tank its easy, or that I can always solve situations, or always look good trying but it does mean you have room to play at your best, by having the room to make choices. With all that being said, i have no beef at all with tanks, in fact i think they're constructed quite well   They may be simpler in design than chanters, but they have complexity in the one thing that they must do (taunting), and its fun and involves choices and responsibilites.  I think nearly every illusionist enjoys hard to play classes, and complex classes (chanters in EQ1 usually felt this way also), but that doesn't mean we can't have complaints about some of our redundancy.  Im happy that we are complex, and that we have several responsibilities and challenges, but that doesnt mean i can't complain about breeze feeling like its my alarm clock going off every minute and i have to keep hitting the snooze button, even when i am having the exact same effect for maybe an hour at a time. If things go well i keep myself breezed along with the healer, which sounds small, but it involves clicking breeze far too often.  Its irritating.

 

I don't claim to know whats the best way to fix breeze, or thats its broken, i just think it could be just as controlled (just as far away from full group KEI) but be less irritating.  There was no skill at all in EQ1 chanters mana regen spell line, and the idea behind the EQ2 breeze line is good... it just needs work.  So please, stop arguing with chanters about us losing KEI from eq1, no one has asked for it back.  In fact please stop posting in this forum about chanters being whiney about not being like EQ1 chanters, your argument is a annoying way to ignore what we are saying and to try to [Removed for Content] us off.  I have to click on that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] button all the time, regardless of the situation (even out of combat, assuming we are in a dangerous spot), becuase if something unexpected happens, i can't breeze many people during the fight since the recast is so slow (i agree with the fundamental idea there).  Its just that I  must maintain it on the healer, and myself, so i can have my own power to breeze and do other things when the fight starts.  Sure we shouldn't be able to breeze the whole group easily, i strongly agree with that... but do i have to click a zillion times to make it a balanced spell?  If we are going to keep at least the healer breezed at all times (which i think we all do), perhaps a secondary breeze type spell that lasts longer but can be on only one person, in addition to our other breeze type which expires quickly and covers ther rest of the group members who need it.  I dont really care how strong or weak it would be, but if we had a single target breeze (couldnt be on two people) that lasted longer than the regular breeze line of spells, that would take out the redundancy of breezing the healer constantly when we know we are going to breeze them all the time anyway, if you group for 4 hours and keep breeze up on the healer, how many redundant clicks is that?  It has nothing to do with skill or management to keep the healer breezed, its just a chore (a very effective chore though... so i can't complain too much).  I like the idea of having to manage breeze in combat while my group members individually lose power (which is how it works now) but i dont like doing that while also breezing the healer again and again and again.  No other class has a responsibility this redundant.  I love healers and knowing i can keep them breezed, otherwise i would never have chosen chanters in EQ1 or EQ2, but i get tired of healer breezing being just a button i click every two minutes or so (i dont really know how often it is.)  I'd like some player feedback on that idea, i don't wanna toss an idea out to the developers in this thread without opening the door to other illusionists to criticize the idea.

 

 

My beef with mezzing is that we are so limited in choices... how can you tell if one chanter is better at mezzing when its all about the recast time?  Fighters/Priests really shine because taunts and heals aren't about recast time, its about choices and management.  You know when a priest/fighter is good becuase they do the correct thing at the correct time. Mezzing/breezing really isnt like that, we just cast those when we can, so there's not much depth there, not to mention the frustration of having to click constantly, and stopping to maintain DOTS and stifles.  I don't think it would be balanced if we could mezz a zillion mobs like we could in EQ1, but our mezzing there was a way for us to shine and show what we could do by managing our skills and making choices.  There should be a way for us to get that same satisfaction here.  I loved the appreciation i got for my mezzing in EQ1, in EQ2 our job is usually thankless, cause we can't easily shine at anything, other than using all our spells, and keeping those key people breezed.  The difference between a good illusionist and a bad one is a matter of paying attention and knowing what all your spells do, its not so much about skill as i would like it to be.  We have to manage several spell lines, but theres not much management in the way we actually use them, as opposed to taunts and heal spells.  The mechanics of EQ2 mezzing are certainly a lesser complaint than breeze mechanics though, and I could play with this mezz style indefinately without being frustrated.  Im glad we mezz so dont call me ungrateful.  I have to admit that as far as my mezz complaint goes, im really just talking about the depth of EQ1 mezzing, and the skill it involved, so you can flame away for holding on to EQ1

 

What we have asked for is at least another minute on our breeze timer, and we shouldnt be getting that through specialized training, thats just silly, specially when nearly every illusionist worked hard to get adept3 breeze.  Still, i am happy to see the training breeze has longer time, and I love chanters, EQ1 and EQ2 becuase of their group oriented nature and complexities, and i love all the classes in EQ2, i have no beef with other classes, or see illusionists as weak (we certainly aren't), but our redundant clicking is driving us nuts.  I'm enjoying the chanter in EQ2, and my main will always be an illusionist, but i think every illusionist has legit complaints about the way we have to play.

 

One more thing:

Perhaps let us zoom out further?  As both a guardian and a illusionist i feel my view of the battle is usually restrained.  Perhaps i would usually play at the present camera distance, but it would be nice to have the option to zoom out when I need to.

I apologize that this post is so incredibly long :

Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on 01-23-2005 03:15 PM

[Fizlo]

I'M BLIND!!!!!

[Fizlo]

Ok I can see again. Lil too much white :/I agree with everything you wrote. Button mashing is completely different from what we do. I have no problems spamming the same few abilities. But, I do have difficulties keeping everything in my head straight. You are right, unlike almost all the other classes, we have no set cycle that we can go through. Imho, that is a great thing and I wish all the classes could say the same. On the other hand, we have more duties than we have time to perform them in. Unfortunately, If something (an ability, etc) can be done, it must be done. Ouch I think if they just made the breeze either 10 minutes long with a nerf to the power or 30 seconds long with a buff to the power we would be better off. In the 10 minute case, the power of the breeze would be dimished but we would be able to contribute in other ways with the extra free time. In the 30 second case, the power of the breeze would be greater (perhaps an initial power heal, combined with a fast regen). It would become a situation mana heal. Imho, the best change would be to have BOTH types of mana regens. One long duration slight mana regen and a powerful quick mana heal. Just my 2 cents.

Message Edited by Fizloki on 01-22-2005 08:07 PM

[Surian]

I really love seeing a post by someone who loves their Illy, but recognises the problems it has... who is also quite willing to stay with what they've got, if that's what's going to be decided. Or something.What I'm trying to say is, thank you for liking the class and trying to find a cool-headed way to improve some things, but recognising the strengths in the supposed 'broken' abilities anyways. I find far too many 'this is broken!' complaints... and, well, I don't agree, although I don't completely disagree either.I wholeheartedly agree with your post, although I know our opinions undoubtedly differ on the ideas for 'touching up' breeze, but that's to be expected. I've created an alt of every class at some point, and you're honestly right -- it's not that the other classes are less challenging, but their button-presses are a lot less random in a 'regular' fight. Or even in a 'crap hit the fan' fight. It's tough, and about choices and skill...Well, it's all been said.Just going /applaud. I don't really have anything to add other than my wholehearted support, and another thank-you for being so cool-headed about it.I know this class can be frustrating, and it's not for everyone. So can every other class, though, and it just saddens me when so many people feel like everything about the Illusionist is 'broken' and then feel compelled to tell it to the world. Not pointing fingers, and this forum is generally pretty good about avoiding it really. But I see a bit of that everywhere -- and so do other Illys. New ones, who might like the class after all, but might get discouraged by all the whining and dissent.There's some things that could be improved, but just sitting around complaining all the time, or deleting/rerolling your char isn't going to solve it. Cool-headed discussion combined with a willingness to work with what you have right now is undoubtedly the best way to go about it. Not saying you have to love the Illy class, it's okay to despise it and reroll, or whatever. But... please, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's 'broken' or that everyone else hates it too.Bah.Great post, I'll stop rambling. I'm whining about the whiners. How hypocritical.

[Padi]

Sadly, when people talk of a good enchanter in EQ2, they are usually talking about the enchanter who keeps breeze on everyone and could hardly careless about the rest.  Although a few mez's here and there are seen, just doesn't seem impressive at all.  The other trait most people think of when refering to a good enchanter is one who let's people AE within an encounter instead of mez'ing everything.

 

It's sad that a mindless chore and the lack of doing anything is what makes one enchanter seem better than another.

 

The beaf I have with Breeze is that it's a chore always ticking in your mind to refresh on the next person every 30 seconds or so.  At no point can you stop thinking about it or the breeze rotation faulters.

 

If they wanted it to be something used in an emergency, they could make it more effective and very short duration, or give it a really long recast timer so it can only be put on 2 people at a time.  That or just recognize it's a spell everyone puts on all members of a group and just take away the hassel part.  If it was a group spell it would definately be much better (like my bard).

[Me]

With in reason, illusionist will be the most active party member in any good encounter. The poster has shown that point very well. I like the fact that I don't use a set combat sequence in every encounter. Illusionist in a good group can set them off and allow for some great adventuring. Heck, in good groups we let groups get by with one healer (and replace with a dps class) in situations where most people would say that 2 healers are needed, that can be a hard sell for some people.

 

We are one of the few classes that have the ability to 'controll' an encounter to our like'n.

[Spymast]

You are my hero. I absolutely agree all your speaking. I wish have SOE staff can/will read the post and tell the game designer and have some improvement very soon.

[Caldaini]

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Padien wrote:

 

The other trait most people think of when refering to a good enchanter is one who let's people AE within an encounter instead of mez'ing everything.

---

If you have multiple AE'ers in your group, it would be more efficient and faster to just AE any encounter with more than 2 in the group, rather than mez everything.

 

Another thing is, a lot of the people I group with rarely play with enchanters, if they've seen one at all, and thus they don't know how to adjust their game to accomodate us. So mezzes get broken regularly... when that happens, it's futile to even bother mezzing. Sometimes they say "oops, I forgot we had a chanter", other times they don't say anything. I prefer to adjust my game to suit the group, rather than get the entire group to adjust their game to suit me. If it causes too much heartache, I look for another group.