Consolidated Illusionist Class Issues

[Aelore]

I would like to propose that we begin a professional and non-aggressive thread to consolidate all of the issues currently affecting the Illusionist class.  I noticed that the Conjurers did that in their forum and a dev responded in the thread indicating that their issues were being addressed.  It is my hope that by doing something similar here we can gain the attention of the devs in charge of class balance and class issues and thereby have some of our bugs and issues worked through.

 

I will volunteer to maintain the list here in the first posting of this thread and will add to it any issue that you post as a reply to this thread.  Please be as specific as possible with actual spell names, encounter mobiles, etc.  Once the responses and issues start being posted, I will consolidate and format them to fit within the list and categories created.   I will also do my best to keep them in order of what the community indicates as priorities.    Also, please post links to other threads if you have already posted something and wish for it to be included.

 

Thanks in advance.  I have high hopes if we can communicate clearly here, we can really make a difference.

-------------

 

 

Bugs

1.  We have two lines of spells that are not overwriting each other properly:  mezmerize and root.   (FIXED)

 

2.  There are several spells that do not show up in the 'maintained spell window' as they should:

     a.  Speechless

     b.  Excruciating Reverie

     c.  Dismay

 

3.  AE Direct Damage Spells do not break mezmerize; however, AE Heroic Opportunities (direct damage spells) definately break mezmerize! 

 

4.  The Level 44.6 spell Mind Drain seems to be broken and has a VERY high amount of aggro associated with it.

     a.  The spell description reads "Drains power over time and decreases the casting ability of the illusionists enemy."; however, it seems to only do one tick of damage at the beginning and we're not sure what is meant by "descreasing the casting ability" of the enemy as there doesn't seem to be an obvious effect.   Primarily, there is a concern with the lack of "drains power over time" aspect.

 

5.  Construct of Order (and similar spells) cancel out the group's maintained debuffs when successfully cast.

            ** Fix for this is live on the test server **

                   ~ (02/09/2005 -- Targeted persistent hostile spells (such as DoTs)

                                                 should no longer drop if the caster summons a pet.)

          

6.  Construct of Order, when cast, immediately tells the caster "Sorry, xxx, I can't do that".

 

7.  Resurrecting a player during battle seems to break all mezmerized spells.

 

8.  The re-use timer for the Intensity line (possible additional melee attack) is bugged.

     a.  It reset's if one of the instances of intensity you have currently maintained fades.  So as you're playing if you refresh intensity before the current buff timer runs out....you deal w/ the normal recast time - but if Intensity drops from someone it will grey out your intensity spell symbol and reset the timer as if you had just recast it though you hadn't.  Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm tempted to say that it seems like a longer refresh than it would usually be per cast - but that doesn't seem logical...so i must be recalling things slightly incorrect.

 

9.  Terrain is having strange effects on mezmeration, stun, and root type spells.

     a.  if you stun, root, or mez a target on certain uneven terrain, the target gets teleported to your location apparently even if the mez is not broken.  From that point on, reapplying a mez, root, or stun does not hold the target even if you do so on even terrain.  No matter where you move, the target teleports to your exact loction.  Thus, if mez or stun is broken, you are under immediate melee attack, and if the mez is not broken, you cannot apply damage, direct or otherwise, because you will break the mez and the target will be able to immediately counter attack (i.e., you cannot root it or otherwise keep it at a distance, the hallmark of our class).  Likewise, when the stun breaks, it can immediately start attacking you.

 

 

 

Clarification Requested

1.  AE Mezmerize spells break whenever any mobile in the encounter is attacked.

     a.  It is possible that this is how it was intended; however, it is not what one would logically assume from the spell's description (and from imagining it from a real-life/fantasy perspective).  A clarification post from a dev would help make this clear to us.

 

2.  The level 38.6 spell Capture Mind and the level 40 spell Convincing Regalia continue to be on the same reuse timer. 

     a.  There are two camps of enchanters on this.  Some have a convincing rationale as to why they are on the same timer, and others have a convincing rationale as to why they should not be (ie, that it is a bug).    We would just appreciate a clarification.

 

3.   We have discovered that many of our spells (ie, stifles, power drains, mezs) do not work on many +++ mobs.   This comes into play with raids especially, even with what we commonly call "yard trash" (Example:  Cauldron Hollow Raid).    Was this intended or was this restriction intended only for the 'boss' encounters?

     a.  This is a concern given that as it stands, most of our class defining skills become obsolete during these raids.

 

4.   Why is the range on Haste spells so much less than the range on Breeze type spells?

 

5.   Color Shower (Lvl 50), when cast on e.g. Steel Golem in CT, yields "Target too powerful" while all lower level DDs and DoTs land just fine.

 

 

 

Suggestions

1.   Please adjust summoner pets so that they do not break our mezmerize spells.   It is causing a lot of grief between players of the enchanter and summoner classes.  

     a.  One of the biggest issues in this case is that pets cannot be controlled easily once the summoner has been attacked by an 'add' mobile.

     b.  If there is a desire to allow pets the ability to break mezmerize when desired, why not create a special command that 'forces' a pet to break mez.

 

2.  There is an issue of grouping with summoners that their primary form of damage output is in Damage Over Time AE spells.  This can cause grief when summoners and enchanters attempt grouping together.

 

3.  There is a general concern that the availability of illusion items in the game is diminishing the 'fun' aspect of the Illusionist class 'fun' spells.

 

4.  As has been stated innumerably in other threads, the duration of spells such as breeze and haste is somewhat maddening to an Illusionist. 

            ** This has been addressed on the test server **

                   ~ (02/09/2005 --   Short duration group buffs now last 10 minutes, and single

                                                   target buffs now last 15 minutes.  This affects the following

                                                   spells:   Breeze, Fleeting Thoughts, Alacrity,  Scintillating

                                                   Aura, Intensity,  Kor-Sha's Adroit Seal, Fozzin's Propitious

                                                   Visions)

 

5.  Please add the message indicating who has broken the mezmerize spell currently being maintained (ie, similar to what is in place on EQ1).

    a.  This allows you to know when a mez has been broken and when it needs to be reapplied.

    b.  This also allows you to train group members on proper group play.

 

 

 

Miscellaneous

1.  The Maintained Spell Window is too restricted!  It will only show 12 spells, no matter how large you make the window.

     a.  This is a major concern when trying to maintain so many single cast buff spells and single cast mezmerize spells.

 

2.  There are serious concerns in regards to 50+ raid content for Illusionsts as they stand currently.

    a.  Sony has patched 50+ content early.  There are tons of 50+ things to do now; Chamber of Fear, Gultch, Naggy, Forge, LS, 4xEF, 4xPerma, Vox, 4xCT, 4xFeerot, 2xferrot, blackore, Lagoon... that was all patched in the last few weeks, and is working.  

With that said - I find there is absolutely no place for an Illusionist.  Let me give you some examples:

•  You can not buff while pulling a boss mob encounter - so when everyone else is done buffing in a minute, you have to selectively buff a few people in your group.  You can not hold the pull just for you.. because the other buffs are way more important - Rune shield / Reactive heal etc etc.. 
• You must get within melee range of the tanks to haste.. this is a major problem as boss mobs tend to have melee range and spell range AE abilities.. casters should not be within melee range of a boss mob causing agro with a simple haste buff.
• Crowd control does not work with triple ups and boss mob encounters do not last long enough to warrant long lasting CC
• You can not use any of your spells on a high level boss mob.. the only ones you can use are absolutely useless to the raid.. the Mana nuke causes instant agro off a boss mob and will "flip" the mob in your direction.
• Our AE's at 50 are nice but cause too much lag with a 24 person raid.. the DPS on a boss mob encounter for illusionists is basically one or 2 dots on a 10k HP mob.. yeah basically none.  The stuns and AE stifle lasts seconds at most..

     b.  The only thing that works on the high end content is pure and simple Melee DPS, Melee AE specials (rampage), and high HP's and healers..  Because raids are limited to 12 - 24 people per encounter.. you have to pick the best role to finish that raid.. it's nice to have an illusionist sure.. we can change 6 people into gnolls... but all our utility and all our game role can be done without us being there with a plus benefit.. there is no downside to not having an illusionist.

 

Message Edited by Aelorean on 02-09-2005 09:21 PM

[MoIlo]

Lvl 38.6 Capture Mind mez and lvl 40 Convincing Regalia are still on the same timer, even though they are not the same line of mezes

[Surian]

/bumpThis is more of a cosmetic thing, but still an annoyance: whenever I cast my group mez, I understand that I'm supposed to be immobilized, but having 'INTERRUPTED' come up at the end of my casting... well, that's a bit much. This spell wouldn't even work on grey group mobs I was fighting (testing purposes) because of the 'interrupt' until I put it up at adept 1. It's actually been useful when my group is add'ed by aggro-group-mobs now, but that 'hit one creature in the group and it's broken' thing is maddening./agree with everything else on this list. An alternative could be that our happy illusions could be useful, or something. Right now they're just 'fun spells.' Oh joy.Another interesting cosmetic issue: I don't know if any other illusionists have this problem, but my character is an erudite. When I use my 'fun spells' to turn into a human or half-elf, I'm still bald. I don't mind it, but I was wondering if this was intentional, because I've seen people using those petrified eyes to go human or half-elf or dark elf or whatever, and they aren't bald at all. Then again, their 'main' had hair in the first place.Those two-mezzes cancelling each other out is annoying even if I'm the only enchanter in the group. I can use my training mez and entrance on, say, mobs in Nek Castle (can't use the training mez in Runnyeye), but I have to pay very very special attention to what mez is on what creature, because they'll appear to stack in my window but they'll actually cancel each other out on the creature. I remember both Fascinate and Entrance doing this when I was at the level range to use both.I think the most annoying thing in this list is the maximum number of things in the maintainted spells window. I don't know what the limit is on 'spells currently on you' window, but it's a LOT longer than the maintained one. And I -need- that window most. A definite 'AGREE!' on that one.Thanks for the list -- here's hoping we get some use out of it.

[Storr]

Yeah, definitely agree about the maintained spells window. If there is a major problem to show more than 12 spells, I'd even settle for the window to be reverse order (most recent spell shown first, spells cast 5 hours ago shown last).

[Punkbr]

a. Patch notes seem to indicate that only the new 'trait' spells should be using idential timers; therefore, it is our assumption that this is a bug until told otherwise.Actually, to point something out, (And if this is what you mean, forgive me), The new 'Training' spells, are on identical timers with the spells they replace. AKA Fozzin's at level 30 is the same as breeze, and both will share the reuse timer. The replacement for Overwhelming Silence at level 20 will use the same reuse timer, etc etc.

[Aelore]

Oh yea, that's what I meant though ....trait spells and spells that are 'paired' with trait spells.   Therefore, two different mezzes (even if they're the same) shouldn't share a reuse timer unless one is a 'trait'.  If that makes sense.  

 

At least, from what I've read the devs say, this is correct.

[Vurin]

I disagree or have issues with your posts in quite a few areas. here's my rundown both positive and negative.

 

Bugs:

1. While i suppose the point is valid, its mostly a concern with other classes mezes, roots, and stuns that it becomes an issue at all, and I'm not overly familiar with the issues we have with stacking and early wearing off with other classes, but i'm assumign its a problem. For personal spells you should only have one of each line of the appropriate strength to use. Since otherwise post 30 or so you'll never have two abilities of the same type on shared timers. Even, I believe, if you mez, then AE mez, the mob stays mezed even after ae mez breaks.

 

2. I'm not entirely convinced we were ever intended to have tw omezes, they shared timers before training, and nothings changed ost training. Unless they announce we're supposed to have two mezes ( and that certainly would be nice)  I'm just going to assume the main difference is CR has readily available adept books, and capture mind needs crafted adept 3s to reach adept level effectiveness. Basically you have a baseline no special feature mez with adept 1 duration and effectiveness, and app 2-4 Special no interupt mez to choose from ( until you upgrade to adept 3 capture mind). As of right now there are no mobs that hit the level cap for either spell.

 

4. Seems intended to me, and works well when used properly. If nothing else it leaves me from mezing 4 mobs have 3 woken up and me and one mob stuck staring at each other while the other 3 molest my group.

 

Suggestions.

 

1. I defitnely agree. I rarely enjoy grouping with summoners for this very reason. Certainly makes both of our lives more difficult.

 

2. This isn't really the summoner issue forum, don't think this is the place for advocating their changes. As far as i am concerned it is fine since I can mez a named, then AE dot the group and the named won't wake up. Since I can mez a mob indefintely and never have it wake there's almost no chance of having the mob unmez and be hit with a DoT, but even if it did, thats the risk you pay with highly mana efficent damage. Summoner issues are summoner issues let them, and those most familiar with them advocate their own changes.

 

3. Ever since they started consuming bones I don't think anybody but you has complained about these ( except to say i wish they didnn't consume bones). No reason to suck the fun out of the game, because you want to be unique. Don't get me wrong, I'd love more illusions, particularly, illusion other/group type ones, but I don't see any reason to suck fun out of other people's game just so I can console myself for not being a special and unique snowflake.

 

4. Today I had my first raid vs an open field  4 group mob. We had 18 people I was able to keep everybody breezed ( cept the 2 monks who dealt no damage), DoT, Debuff, mez, and occassionally nuke just fine over the course of a 15 minute or so fight. Did it suck. Kinda, but I was incredibly useful, and still able to do many other things so I don't find it too bad. Basically I wouldn't mind a less annoying method of maintainign breeze ( making not castable cross group is fien too), but if they water it down to compensate for duration increases then we've basically become troubadours without the DPS, and with weaker stat buffs.

 

Misc

 

1. If its got 3 up arrows its generally not yard trash.I've been to cauldron hollow and all the 3 up arrow mobs have 1-3 double up adds with them which can be mezed.

 

2. I concur on this one too. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near useless unless i'm soloing.

 

 

But while we've got a list going ( i was gonna start a similiar thread actually) here's some issues you've missed.

 

Construct of order  ( and other classes swarm pets like Necro's rats) - cancel out the group's maintained debuffs when successfully cast. This includes but is not limited to, DoTs, mezes, stun, roots, and slows, spells without a maintained icon ( such as speechless) are not effected.

 

Mind Drain - Doesn't do power damage over time, and has a very high amount of aggro associated with it.

[Aelore]

2. This isn't really the summoner issue forum, don't think this is the place for advocating their changes. As far as i am concerned it is fine since I can mez a named, then AE dot the group and the named won't wake up. Since I can mez a mob indefintely and never have it wake there's almost no chance of having the mob unmez and be hit with a DoT, but even if it did, thats the risk you pay with highly mana efficent damage. Summoner issues are summoner issues let them, and those most familiar with them advocate their own changes.

 

I disagree with the basis of this statement due to the fact that I consider anything that affects my class and gameplay to be an issue worthy of discussion on this forum.   I have grouped extensively with summoner classes and it is always a source of contention and almost always ends up with some sort of argument within the group and someone being irritable about it.

 

I suppose the statement can be changed to avoid suggesting spell changes to their class; however, I think it's well within our rights to complain about the fact that grouping with a summoner is a problem due to their ALWAYS wanting to use AE dots and whining when they cannot and a request that something (whatever that might be) be done to alieviate this issue.

[Aelore]

3. Ever since they started consuming bones I don't think anybody but you has complained about these ( except to say i wish they didnn't consume bones). No reason to suck the fun out of the game, because you want to be unique. Don't get me wrong, I'd love more illusions, particularly, illusion other/group type ones, but I don't see any reason to suck fun out of other people's game just so I can console myself for not being a special and unique snowflake.

 

Well, the point of the whole 'fun' line of spells was supposed to make all classes unique and special (and was stated as such during the beta of the game).  In fact, before the whole 'traits' thing came about, I remember devs posting something to that effect.

 

No, the devs made a huge error in judgement with the petrified eyes.  The bones should have all been no-drop then there wouldn't have been the problem in the first place.   However, even most regular players will laugh at our line of 'fun' spells due to the ease of how everyone else can obtain illusions.  

 

Every class deserves some sort of uniqueness in the area of 'fun' spells.

[Mimzel]

I team with summoners just fine...   When I say "no AOE!", generally none does. So they listen. Of course having the pet break calms is irritating, and yet it is a bug that im sure they will work on fixing. Its more a Summoner thing that something truly belonging to the consolidated illusionist bug/suggestion thread. But its ok to have it here.

 

I agree with the rest of the list.

[zanderi]

Lvl 44.6 Mind Drain is broken. This is the quote from the SOE spell list: "Drains power over time and decreases the casting ability of the illusionists enemy."Unfortunately it only does one tick of damage at the start and then doesn't do any more. I'm not sure what it means by decreasing casting ability but i don't think it's stifling either. Then again it didn't say prevent casting. So I;m mainly concerned with the lack of its "Drains power over time".

[MidilStarfy]

I also have to disagree with several items in your post.

 

Bugs

 

1.  I agree completely that this is a bug.  When two different mez's are cast on a mob, it becomes unmezable.  This is very frustrating.

 

2.  The level 38.6 Mez and the level 40 Mez are supposed to be on the same timer.  Here is why.  Entrance is capped at level 42.  Very often I fought level 43 mobs before I attained Capture Mind.  If they didn't give us this interum mez, we would be without a Mez until level 40.  We would be without our class defining ability for several levels!  The fix?  Capture Mind.  Something to tie us over until we get to level 40.  However, it is my opinion that Capture Mind needs to be given one level earlier, or Entrance's cap needs to be extended to 43.  As I ended up in groups that fought in Rivervale, where there is a healthy mix of level 42 and 43 mobs, some which I could mez, and some of which I couldn't.  I hated having this disclaimer: "Warning, I CAN NOT mez any level 43 Mobs, thank you."

 

3.  Excrutiating Reverie shows up on the effects cast on you list.  I have also seen it on the maintained list for a brief period of time.  Speechless would be nice, but since its about a 15 second duration spell, this is not a critial problem.  I love spamming the heck out of myself with this spell.

 

4.  This is how the AE mez is supposed to work.  These are encounter mez's.  They are ment to mez an entrie group of adds, not mez an entire group and then allow players to pick them off, one by one.  However, I agree there is an issue with these spells.  Timers.  They need to be longer then 20 seconds.  I don't care being stunned for that long, or draining my power to use it.  Remember devs, we are stunned the entire duration AND losing power to boot.  It would be ok to increase duration timer and decrease recast timer.  Why?  No one gets our benefits while we are stunned.  If our buffs wear off, they are off until we can refreash, which we can't do while stunned.

 

5.  Yes, consistancy in this area would be nice, but I fear this is as intended, and the group just needs to watch what it's doing. 

 

Suggestions

 

1.  Summoner pets SHOULD break mez.  That is the summoners responcibility to control their pets.  If they lack the capacity to control the pet, then leave the group.

 

2.  Again, this is how it SHOULD work.  If AE dots did not break mez, I would deffinatly group with a summoner and dou everything in sight.  Why?  Example:  I Mez, summoner dots, we wait.  I mez again, summoner redots, we wait.  Rinse, repeat.  Again, talk to the summoners and explain it to them.  I have no troubles with this.  If you do, leave the group.

 

3.  I also was happy that petrified eyes require a bone chip now.  This is how I always felt it should be.  However, requiring an enchanted bone chip is just spiteful.  Leave it how it is now.  I think it is good as is.

 

4.  I agree, maddening indeed.  However, I fear they wont change this.  So better get used to it.

 

Miscellanous

 

1.  We are worthless on ^^^ mobs.  However, given the strength of speechless and mez and other spells, I would rather they left as is, then nerf them so we can do more then buff and dot the mobs.  Becareful what you wish for.

 

2.  12, 24, 200.  How many spells do you need to see maintained?  Since I routinely have 30+ maintained spells going at once, I'd keep it small, anyways.  I don't need to see the last spell I cast, I need to see the spells that are about to expire. 

 

You raise some good points about our class and working and playing with others.  However, a lot of our stuff is skill.  We are not an easy no brainer class to play, and we need everyone in our group to be good at what they do.  The solution to bad players is not make our stuff so uber, but to educate the players.

[MidilStarfy]

Double Post

Message Edited by MidilStarfyre on 01-15-2005 07:38 AM

[KaltenAlTh]

What about the issue of HO breaking mez?

[Aelore]

Excrutiating Reverie shows up on the effects cast on you list.  I have also seen it on the maintained list for a brief period of time.

 

Mine doesn't at all.  It has never shown up on the 'maintained' spell list for me.

 

1.  Summoner pets SHOULD break mez.  That is the summoners responcibility to control their pets.  If they lack the capacity to control the pet, then leave the group. 

 

I disagree with this.  First of all, there are times when the summoner is attacked and/or aggroed and they do not even know it and their pet is hitting mobs.  Frankly, there is so much visual spam in EQ2 that's hard to know which mob a pet is attacking in ANY encounter.   Moreover, from what I understand, summoners cannot control pets that have aggro on a mob and that's not their fault.

 

No, when they changed this in EQ1 it was one of the best things that was added in the minds of most people.  It simplified a lot of issues and generally made both classes a lot more fun to play.   Summoners have plenty of options to break mez besides using their pet to do so should they wish to break mez in the first place.

[Aelore]

2.  Again, this is how it SHOULD work.  If AE dots did not break mez, I would deffinatly group with a summoner and dou everything in sight.  Why?  Example:  I Mez, summoner dots, we wait.  I mez again, summoner redots, we wait.  Rinse, repeat.  Again, talk to the summoners and explain it to them.  I have no troubles with this.  If you do, leave the group.

 

I keep hearing this rational: "tell summoners not to use their DOTS, and end of story".   Well, I have found that it is not this simple.  First of all, when you group with guildees you can't just "tell" them what to do, and basically summoners are get REALLY [Removed for Content] when you tell them they can't use their AE Dots (basically because without them their dps is severly limited).   I also have this in groups as well, and I'm just getting tired of dealing with the arguments every time I group with a summoner class.  (Many times it's not me doing the arguing either, it's the group leader trying to get them to stop using the dots.)

 

Frankly, I'm not sure what the solution is and I'm not really advocating one solution over another (I'll edit the list to reflect this); however, I DO think that it is an issue that needs to be addressed.   A game shouldn't be about one class getting to use their skills and another having to reduce theirs, there should be options.  For example, if a paladin isn't the group's tank, then he/she has other skills/abilities/gear that allows them to serve as dps and or support roles.   Same with us as illusionists, if we're not serving as crowd control/buffing ...we can easily serve as dps.    My point is that summoners need to have more options to allow them to group more effeciently with enchanters.   Right now, I dread seeing a summoner because it means I have to deal with their pet (first of all), and then their abundance of AE dot spells.

[Aelore]

Ok, I updated the list with a lot of the suggestions given as far as wording and criticisms were concerned.   I moved a few of the things that were considered bugs or suggestions to a new category called "clarification requested".

[Kazora]

I'd have to disagree with all the rationales given so far on why we have 2 mezzes so close to gether at 38.6/40. As far as the adept situation for regalia/capture mind goes, i'm sorry i just dont buy this as much of a justification for having 2 mezzes this close together. It looks more like you're trying to take stabs at what sony was thinking rather than deciding if this was the most logical decision to make gameplay-wise. I have adept in CR and app2 in CM (yes app 2) and i get basically no difference whatsoever on resists or mez duration. Capture mind rarely resists for me even on orange mobs, and while i dont have specific trials done, i have gotten enough resists with CR to convince me that the difference if any is little. Maybe red mobs is where you see the distinction between CR adept and CM app, but I just dont fight red con mobs enough anymore to think this is enough of a distinction.  Personally I mostly just use CM because i can move around while casting it, which can sometimes be a lifesaver, as mobs generally dont land their specials unless  you're stationary.

 

As far as the CM added to "tide us over" thing, I will admit this may be why sony added it, because it seems like their kind of qiuck fix. But it seems like it would have made far more sense to move CR up earlier in the spell progresison list, rather than add a 2nd spell. But the poster seems to imply with the "tide over" thing that CM would only be used to save us till 40 when we'd all happily use CR. I'd love to hear from any 40+ encs who regularly  and routinely use CR, an interruptable, fizzleble spell, over CM.

 

My opinion is that CR, which was in the gamefiles well before CM was added, simply never got removed when sony added CM. CM is basically a continuation of the entrance line of spells, which is so pivotal to an illusionists abilities to mez on the run without interruption. If we had to move to CR once we'd become used to entrance for 20 levels, we would have felt very gimped with regards to our mezzing ability, and I think the designers eventualyl realized this.  CR  is basically a useless spell that the designers just didnt feel the need to remove once CM was added.

 

 

 I doubt they ever intended us to have 2 mezzes on separate timers, nor do I think they purposefully/intentionally added these 2 mezzes so as to give us some  "critical" choice between an adept spell and an app3/adept3 crafted spell.

[MidilStarfy]

---

Aelorean wrote:

Excrutiating Reverie shows up on the effects cast on you list.  I have also seen it on the maintained list for a brief period of time.

 

Mine doesn't at all.  It has never shown up on the 'maintained' spell list for me.

 

---

 

Correct, however, it still shows up on the spell effects spell list.  So I don't know your problem with this...add a little more enlightenmight for me.

 

---

Aelorean wrote:

1.  Summoner pets SHOULD break mez.  That is the summoners responcibility to control their pets.  If they lack the capacity to control the pet, then leave the group. 

 

I disagree with this.  First of all, there are times when the summoner is attacked and/or aggroed and they do not even know it and their pet is hitting mobs.  Frankly, there is so much visual spam in EQ2 that's hard to know which mob a pet is attacking in ANY encounter.   Moreover, from what I understand, summoners cannot control pets that have aggro on a mob and that's not their fault.

 

No, when they changed this in EQ1 it was one of the best things that was added in the minds of most people.  It simplified a lot of issues and generally made both classes a lot more fun to play.   Summoners have plenty of options to break mez besides using their pet to do so should they wish to break mez in the first place.

---

I disagree with your disagreement.  Summoners do have the ability to back their pets off a fight.  It is possible, none the less difficult.  Just like it was in EQ1.  I wont constitue laziness and sloppyness as a "bug".  Summoners CAN tell who their pet is hitting (clicking on it), just because they WONT doesn't mean Sony needs to fix it.  I quit EQ1 before these "magnificant" changes, so I know nothing of this ability to not break mez or anything of that nature.  And just because it was in EQ, Original, does not mean it should or needs to be here. 

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2.  Again, this is how it SHOULD work.  If AE dots did not break mez, I would deffinatly group with a summoner and dou everything in sight.  Why?  Example:  I Mez, summoner dots, we wait.  I mez again, summoner redots, we wait.  Rinse, repeat.  Again, talk to the summoners and explain it to them.  I have no troubles with this.  If you do, leave the group.

 

I keep hearing this rational: "tell summoners not to use their DOTS, and end of story".   Well, I have found that it is not this simple.  First of all, when you group with guildees you can't just "tell" them what to do, and basically summoners are get REALLY [Removed for Content] when you tell them they can't use their AE Dots (basically because without them their dps is severly limited).   I also have this in groups as well, and I'm just getting tired of dealing with the arguments every time I group with a summoner class.  (Many times it's not me doing the arguing either, it's the group leader trying to get them to stop using the dots.)

 

Frankly, I'm not sure what the solution is and I'm not really advocating one solution over another (I'll edit the list to reflect this); however, I DO think that it is an issue that needs to be addressed.   A game shouldn't be about one class getting to use their skills and another having to reduce theirs, there should be options.  For example, if a paladin isn't the group's tank, then he/she has other skills/abilities/gear that allows them to serve as dps and or support roles.   Same with us as illusionists, if we're not serving as crowd control/buffing ...we can easily serve as dps.    My point is that summoners need to have more options to allow them to group more effeciently with enchanters.   Right now, I dread seeing a summoner because it means I have to deal with their pet (first of all), and then their abundance of AE dot spells.

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Why can't you "tell" them what to do?  I "tell" my guildie summoner friends this simple statement all the time, "Mezzing such and such, no ae's."  I have known no summoner who got REALLY [Removed for Content], mad, angry, sad, depressed, suicidal, because I told them no AE.  Our class is not broken because of poor playing skills.  I'm sorry, it's not.  A game shouldn't be able using all your skills, all the time.  You work with a team.  Sometimes you mez, sometimes you don't.  Sometimes they AE, sometimes they don't.  It's a fact of life. 

 

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rozakk wrote:

As far as the CM added to "tide us over" thing, I will admit this may be why sony added it, because it seems like their kind of qiuck fix. But it seems like it would have made far more sense to move CR up earlier in the spell progresison list, rather than add a 2nd spell. But the poster seems to imply with the "tide over" thing that CM would only be used to save us till 40 when we'd all happily use CR. I'd love to hear from any 40+ encs who regularly  and routinely use CR, an interruptable, fizzleble spell, over CM.

 

My opinion is that CR, which was in the gamefiles well before CM was added, simply never got removed when sony added CM. CM is basically a continuation of the entrance line of spells, which is so pivotal to an illusionists abilities to mez on the run without interruption. If we had to move to CR once we'd become used to entrance for 20 levels, we would have felt very gimped with regards to our mezzing ability, and I think the designers eventualyl realized this.  CR  is basically a useless spell that the designers just didnt feel the need to remove once CM was added.

 

 

 I doubt they ever intended us to have 2 mezzes on separate timers, nor do I think they purposefully/intentionally added these 2 mezzes so as to give us some  "critical" choice between an adept spell and an app3/adept3 crafted spell.

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That may be.  As I'm not a level 40 enchanter (infact, 39) so I have no experience with CR over CM, however, we will still only have 1 mez.  This is intentional, I am sure, and as such we agree on that.  I agree completely with your post.

[Aelore]

Summoners do have the ability to back their pets off a fight.  It is possible, none the less difficult.  Just like it was in EQ1.  I wont constitue laziness and sloppyness as a "bug".  Summoners CAN tell who their pet is hitting (clicking on it), just because they WONT doesn't mean Sony needs to fix it.  I quit EQ1 before these "magnificant" changes, so I know nothing of this ability to not break mez or anything of that nature.  And just because it was in EQ, Original, does not mean it should or needs to be here. 

 

If a pet has AGGRO, you can't break it off the mob, no matter how hard you try.  That's the problem I'm speaking of.   And, if you have an 'add' encounter (while the tank is messing around with another encounter) it's *very* possible for a pet to get aggro on a mob.

 

Scenario:   You're fighting an encounter when another encounter 'adds'.  The summoner gets aggro and the pet immediately goes nuts and gets aggro.  At that point, the only way to get the pet to stop is to spam it with the back off command AND have the tank actively work on getting aggro through taunt, etc..

 

It's not efficient and a pain ...two things that shouldn't be a part of a game.

[MidilStarfy]

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Aelorean wrote:

Summoners do have the ability to back their pets off a fight.  It is possible, none the less difficult.  Just like it was in EQ1.  I wont constitue laziness and sloppyness as a "bug".  Summoners CAN tell who their pet is hitting (clicking on it), just because they WONT doesn't mean Sony needs to fix it.  I quit EQ1 before these "magnificant" changes, so I know nothing of this ability to not break mez or anything of that nature.  And just because it was in EQ, Original, does not mean it should or needs to be here. 

 

If a pet has AGGRO, you can't break it off the mob, no matter how hard you try.  That's the problem I'm speaking of.   And, if you have an 'add' encounter (while the tank is messing around with another encounter) it's *very* possible for a pet to get aggro on a mob.

 

Scenario:   You're fighting an encounter when another encounter 'adds'.  The summoner gets aggro and the pet immediately goes nuts and gets aggro.  At that point, the only way to get the pet to stop is to spam it with the back off command AND have the tank actively work on getting aggro through taunt, etc..

 

It's not efficient and a pain ...two things that shouldn't be a part of a game.

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I dont have this problem.  And I group with lots of summoners.  Have you tried killing your summoner and finding a new one? 

In all seriousness, Its happened to me that the pet agros something I'm trying to mez, but I dont have a problem.  I can get it mezed.  If I can't, we switch targets.  Makes the game a bit more challenging.  I like it.  You don't.  But that's a skill level of the group and the summoner.  The ones I routinely group with are able to control their pets well.

[Felinol]

Have breeze on the summoner at all time... this way you get the aggro from adds so no problem at all!

[Vurin]

Here's another one thats been bothering me.

 

Dismay (lvl 45 debuff spell) has no maintained icon either. it *seems* to be working, and quite well at that, but its nigh impossible to tell when it wears off, or even if its landed at all most times.

 

Now its not a huge deal since most times with breeze you'd never seen it anyway, but if it had a longer duration ( like 1 minuteish like many debuffs) there's a chance you'd get to see it on the maintained list before it wore off completely.

[zanderi]

Vurin,What does Dismay really do? I can't seem to see much of an effect!

[Hoom]

As edited, I like the way the list of concerns is shaping up. Nice job! On a minor note, what concerns me is not the number of fun illusions in the game for non-Illusionists, but rather the scarcity of fun illusions for the Illusionist class. Group Illusion human is not fun. Group Ratty or Iksar or Kerren or Dark Elf, now those would be fun, imo. We need more individual and group illusions to enhance the fun factor. Also, reinforce that the breeze/haste buffing timer needs to be changed to enhance the fun factor, not to increase our power in any way. The current system detracts from gaming enjoyment and can be fixed without becoming overpowered.

[Mihos]

Battle rez breaks all mezes.  Whats the point of that?

 

AE mez is worthless.  Rationalize a use all you can, there are still always better options.

 

Make mezes overwrite instead of stack. 

 

Stop making mez break when stuns break.  Should be able to stun, then mez, and have it stay mezed.

 

Pets breaking mez and AE DoTs makes me never want a summoner in group.  Right or wrong, thats I how I feel.

 

Other than that, I am happy.  I can go off for an hour about our illusions and petrified eyes though.  That just makes me mad.

 

Mihos

 

 

[Mihos]

Message Edited by Mihos on 01-17-2005 09:32 AM

[Azamien-Dermorate]

thanks for posting this list,  I agree that having a consolidated spot for most of our major issues seems like the best way to make sure they get noticed. 

 

The entire thread has been a very intersting read, espcially the discussion about the issues that i have not yet grown into but that I will be experiancing shortly if they arent changed.

[Felinol]

AE Mez is actually a useful spell.. it has recently made its way to my main hotbar. When you get added by a group of mobs, it works VERY well! Often giving the group enough time to finish the other encounter before we start pouding on this one. I don't know what better options you are talking about.. unless you are fighting weak stuff where the adds won't mather, but then again this is not the question.

Message Edited by Felinol on 01-17-2005 01:07 PM

[Twobox]

1. Color Shower (Lvl 50), when cast on e.g. Steel Golem in CT, yields "Target too powerful" while all lower level DDs and DoTs land just fine. How is that logical?

 

2. We need to have messages come in their proper order. The simplest example is when re-mezzing a mob we get the "mezz" message, then a "no longer mezzed" message . . . which hopefully refers to the old mezz lol.

 

3. We need a message identifying who (and therefor) what has broken a mezz. It took a long time to get such a message in EQ1, but once it was implemented groups got better and arguments occurred less frequently.

 

4. The re-use timer for the "Intensity" line (possible additional melee attack) is bugged. It can be set off (making the spell unavailable) by casting a Breeze-type or Mezz-type spell . . . or by nothing apparent at all. Sometimes the timer begins running at 16 seconds, sometimes at around 8 seconds. I have not been able to pin the problem down more definitively than this.

 

I'm sure there's more lol, but its bed time