To Devs : From End game Warlocks.

[Victicu]

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Modean wrote:

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Keithoth wrote:

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One point you're all missing is that when many of us starting playing a warlock we were poison and disease based wizards not AE specialists. The AE specialist was a change made by SOE in DOF that completely changed the way the class plays. I've given it more than an entire expansion (level 50 to 70) and I'm just not sure its a viable class. For me its really not about raw DPS (we can do lots of DPS under certain circumstances) its about how we do DPS. Its about being forced into a very limited playstyle with little flexibility. Sure I'll take better AE aggro control but what I'd really like is better balance between AE and single target DPS (by that I mean lower my AE DPS and raise my single target DPS). I want some distinction between a wizard and warlock not just SOE's perversion of single target vs AE.

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Not to be completely rude but I during raid last night I was outdpsing everyone except our assasin in our raid on single ^^^ fights. I can go all out on single target fights without having to deagro. Our nukes do less damage so they dont get much agro and recast is pretty fast. I do have the agi line so ya :/. OUr single target damage is great. I love the fact we are aoe based. If guild needs aoe mobs dead. They call upon me. I do think  that possibly we need a agro reducer aoe wise. Crit Apoc = death. Well I guess I could say, my giold needs another Paladin. OUr pali fing just puts it on our Wizard even when im out dpsing him. BIIIIITCCCCH.

Message Edited by Keithoth on 03-17-200608:43 AM

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Come on a raid with us Soul we will show you what real conjurors and Necros can do. It's sick I ganreetee you wont beat Nimmh on a single parse on any encounter with less then 2 mobs in it..... and he is not even 70...

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Everyone knows summoners are broken so what the point of comparing to them...You really expect SoE is going to buff ALL the other Tier one classes to surpass summoners??? get realCompare yourself to assassins, rangers, and wizards, and i think you will be much more happy.  The summoner nerf will come, sooner or later.

[Keitho]

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MilkToast wrote:

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Keithoth wrote:

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One point you're all missing is that when many of us starting playing a warlock we were poison and disease based wizards not AE specialists. The AE specialist was a change made by SOE in DOF that completely changed the way the class plays. I've given it more than an entire expansion (level 50 to 70) and I'm just not sure its a viable class. For me its really not about raw DPS (we can do lots of DPS under certain circumstances) its about how we do DPS. Its about being forced into a very limited playstyle with little flexibility. Sure I'll take better AE aggro control but what I'd really like is better balance between AE and single target DPS (by that I mean lower my AE DPS and raise my single target DPS). I want some distinction between a wizard and warlock not just SOE's perversion of single target vs AE.

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Not to be completely rude but I during raid last night I was outdpsing everyone except our assasin in our raid on single ^^^ fights. I can go all out on single target fights without having to deagro. Our nukes do less damage so they dont get much agro and recast is pretty fast. I do have the agi line so ya :/. OUr single target damage is great. I love the fact we are aoe based. If guild needs aoe mobs dead. They call upon me. I do think  that possibly we need a agro reducer aoe wise. Crit Apoc = death. Well I guess I could say, my giold needs another Paladin. OUr pali fing just puts it on our Wizard even when im out dpsing him. BIIIIITCCCCH.

Message Edited by Keithoth on 03-17-200608:43 AM

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Np, glad you like it but there's no way you're out DPSing any T1 class on a single target without using some AE spells (i.e. dark infestation / apocalypse / devastation). Also, my main concern is our ability to contribute taking down named mobs both heroic and epic, that's what really defines the game from my prespective. You just kill all the trash mobs to get to that point. Unfortunately I think killing trash mobs is what warlocks excel at, if you're happy with that role that's great. We have no high powered single target nukes except void distortion (which I don't consider high powered), sure apocalypses does great damage but it's a DOT.

 

 

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Summoners i leave out of subject cause we all know why. Trust me we had our conj his pet something and it outdpsed everyone. So.   I am out dpsing them yes. But I use all the abilities I have. Put Dots on first ... replace them when they run out and yoyu goit no high attacks to hit with. And I use my aoe spells  OF COURSE.. on single mobs. Its another free nuke. If oyu dont use an aoe spell Cuase its labled aoe you are stupid. They are a second nuke. Great Single target DD not only aoe. Apoc personally owns anything. TIcking 2k on raids  and not even critting ..thats 2k x6  .. 12k ....doesnt gather much hate since its a dot... we have low but high damage nukes with decent recasts  ...saves us on hate gain ..single target...   AOE is what we need help ...maybe add deagro to Void Abs.. anything would help at this point.

[Meattray]

Guys can we stop the comparing of different classesEach class has there own strength and weaknessLets focus on warlocks and sending a good message to the SOE Development team to hopfully give us a look to get some changes made.My view on the warlock,We are a strong DPS class, we have the ability to churn out high DPS numbers (please read further on)We do have some crowd control utility, from stuns, pacifies, roots- our crowd control is has strengths and weakness in solo and group playWe do not have a int buff but i would rather have the seal line to buff casting ability and am very happy with this spellWe do not offer much in way of buffs to group but we do help, we are pure dpsWe have a few spell lines that are not used- example the pillaging line of spells, desolation line of spells (the one were it says decreases health and power + summons nil crystal - i have NEVER seen this spell decrease the health of a target), also the gift line of spells is rarly used by me as a AE spell proc buff (maybe this spell would be good option in build in some type of deagro)My view on limitations on the WarlockSince LU13 we were changed to do some heavy AE damage, and we can do some serious DPS to AE mobs but the only problem is Agro.In my view the biggest problems with Warlocks and our lack of DPS is based on agroWarlock has NO way to manage AE agro at all (well the only way is to not to use any AE damage spells) , all we get is single option deagro.As for single target it works well.Our AA Int line holds some promise to help us to deagro we get a staff attack that can deagro every 30 secs sounds great but is single targetThen we get a option to get around 10% deagro, this is our only hope so far to reducing the amout of agro we generate casting AE spells.Then my last hope is the last AA in the line of int, it is possiblle for 24 sec's it will cast concusive and deagro targets.  It sounds like for 24secs of casting all outr spells will deagro target and this sounds good.  But this should not be the fix that i think our class is looking for.Long casting times are a pain to.We need some type of passive or non passive form of deagro that all warlocks can use, this will hopfully allow us to do mre DPS with the tools we already have.Would anyone object to warlcoks getting some form of AOE deagro?Nukette 65 WarlockTaylon 68 FuryNajena

[Korpo]

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Heart's Rage wrote:

Vic..

 

You see nothing wrong with Assassins doing a bit more DPS then you?

You see nothing wrong with Warlocks doing a bit more DPS on other fights?

Thats the point, The fights that Assy's specialize on they have a deaggro for, we dont.

So we can do more dps without useful de-agro, and this is a problem? Your argument makes no sense. In case you didn't realize, assns are T1 dps as well, we should be in the same ballpark.How bout 2k more HP then you?How bout more power than them?

How bout more power consumption per spell ?

Assns don't use spells . Assns also can't canni for more power, whereas we have two spell lines that do just that. They can get items to canni, but we can get those same items if we want. 

How bout 2k Mit?How bout roots, stuns, teleports, and pacifies?

These work really well on raids.Mit doesn't work any better, since an assn getting beat on by a raid mob won't last any longer than a warlock.

 

How bout the choice to wear Chain, Leather, and cloth ?How bout the choice to use a dagger, wand, staff, and symbol?

Stats is stats to us we don't really attack with these, this is more of a burden now that AA's are out and different ones are requiredI've never seen an assn throwing chain, leather, or cloth at a mob, but maybe that's just me. You whine that they have a choice of armors but ignore that we have a greater choice of weapons/symbols/etc. For example I can go with three regen items if I'm capped on int, or I can go with three int items if I'm not, or any mix as necessary. I can even go with high wis items for the extra resists if needed. An assn is pretty much always going to go with his two highest damage weapons. Also, any assn giving up tons of mit to go with leather or cloth kind of negates your argument above that they have more mit, doesn't it?

 

They Evac that bother you?

We feed power (single and group) that bother you? We buff group dis/sub/min/ord that bother you? We buff group power and poison/disease resist that bother you? We give damage shields, power taps, and damage procs, that bother you?

Im not gonna honor this, Evac and Debuffs dont share the same meaninf in combat.You're right; since our buffs and debuffs can be used every single fight and evac can only be used once every 15 mins, our buffs and such are much more useful. Further, evac is useless on raids and 99% of the time when your group isn't in the process of wiping, other than for just getting around. I have my feet and a carpet for that, I don't need a spell.

They get 8 CA's off by the time you are done casting Devestation, that bug ya?

 We get off a huge number of CAs before Assassinate comes back up, that bug ya?We dont use CA's and minus there big spells, there little damage spells come back at about the same rate ours do.

We can get CAs through AA, but I did mean spells here, obviously. Assns don't use spells by the way . We have plenty of fast-refresh spells in our book though, stop comparing apples to fish and saying things are broken. Our high damage things are on much shorter timers than their high damage things. They may be able to save them all up and use them at the beginning of a fight, but they'll be gimpy for the next few minutes. 

They can actually Deaggro without doing more damage, that sure as hell bugs me, not you ?We can generate more damage while reducing agro, that doesn't sound good to you? We can do about (next to) zero damage while reducing agro, that doesn't sound good to you?

Clarify please? Are you stating that reduing 2k hate with a damage spell is better then just reducing it by 2k or droping a threatposition? If you are you are wrong bud.

Situation 1: cast a de-agro and do 3.5k damage by using void dist, resume nuking with more big nukes.Situation 2: cast a de-agro and do 3 damage by using some level 1 nuke, and resume nuking with big nukes.Situation 3: cast a de-agro and do 3 damage by using some level 1 nuke, stand there picking your rear the rest of the fight.If you are going to resume nuking in the first two cases, why waste the time to cast a level 1 nuke that does 0 damage? A 2k hate reduction is a 2k hate reduction unless you are planning on reducing your hate and standing there the rest of the fight, in which case why reduce your hate at all? If it's to save yourself from the mob heading your way, you are better off pacify/stunning it, rooting it, and backing off so the tank can get agro back. The complaint that we have to do damage to reduce hate holds no water, since we are going to resume doing damage as soon as we are done reducing that hate anyway.

How bout they carry 32 slot boxes you cant carry 1, that don't tick you off ?

How bout you get some str gear if you want to carry boxes?

This was a mild example of many benifits to the class, I hope you didn't lose sleep over this oneI can carry a few boxes if I want, as plenty of my gear has some str on it as well as int, as well as a point or two into the str AA path. I never run out of bag space, so I don't bother. If you really have a problem with this then you should shop for some new gear or do a few of the maaaaaaany quests that give huge bags, or call home once in a while.

I can go on and on...And make as little sense as previously? Thanks but no.

HehYour arguments aren't consistent, logical, or even spelled correctly. I actually had to get some Advils after trying to make sense of your original post.

My panties aren't in a wad, you just have no idea what your missing and are satisfied with the hand you've been delt.

You just have no idea (or ignore) what warlocks can do and think you are being shafted.

We can discuss how me and you feel all day long, fact of the matter is we need tuning, it may not be much but we do.A de-agro would be nice, but knowing how to keep yourself alive while doing maximum damage is what separates the good warlocks from the dead ones. Any class is gimpy in the hands of someone that doesn't know what they're doing.

Us other Warlocks, as Warlocks Sacrafice all that cool stuff called Utility, or spunk, fluff, whatever you want to call it for Damage. If we aren't at the top teir when we want to be regaurdless of the situation.. then were lacking flexability. We have no ability to adjust to Single targtet fights, no ability to step up in long fights, were out of power, and certainly no ability to come thru on short duration fights, You have seen that message plenty of times as a warlock i dont have to explain the situation to you (Target is not Alive) 

This other warlock has plenty of utility that tends to be ignored in most warlock rant threads because many other warlocks can't see the forest for the trees. I'm always at the top tier, unless the mob has crazy poison resists or I die during the fight. That includes single and group fights. The only thing I have to adjust for single fights is that I don't have to use my AE spells, and can get off my single nukes more often. I'm not out of power unless I am too lazy to keep my power up. I am at the top on short or long duration fights unless I'm being lazy and just harvesting crystals. If you've seen the message plenty of times then you need to learn how to properly play a warlock, as you haven't gotten it up till now.

Do you raid, or better yet can you the header that the OP made for this post ? "End game"All the time. Unless your group is somehow killing the entire encounter faster than you can get off one single AE, you are targeting the wrong mob. If your group is killing the entire encounter faster than you can get off an AE, you need to stop killing solo content with your group. If your raid is killing the entire raid encounter before you can cast one AE, then either your raid is putting out like 500k dps, or you need to stop raiding BSV at level 70.

Closed mouths dont get fed Vic, you say your happy with what you have, but you really dont know what your missing.

Stupid whining doesn't get us anything either, other than labeled as a whiny class full of people that don't know what they're doing. You give warlocks a bad name. Thanks.

Go away.

Thanks but no. You continue to make warlocks look like a class full of whiners that want everything and I'll continue to try to educate you. It's the way things work. It's like in Lion King with the circle of life, but this is the circle of stupid. Time for school, Simba.

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Message Edited by korpo53 on 03-18-200601:05 AM

[Korpo]

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Meattray wrote:We are a strong DPS class, we have the ability to churn out high DPS numbers (please read further on)Agreed.We do have some crowd control utility, from stuns, pacifies, roots- our crowd control is has strengths and weakness in solo and group playAgreed. We're not chanters, we're not supposed to be CC masters, but I've saved a group more than a few times by rooting the encounter long enough to get the tank/priest/whatever back up.We do not have a int buff but i would rather have the seal line to buff casting ability and am very happy with this spellAgreed x 4.245. It's an awesome buff.We do not offer much in way of buffs to group but we do help, we are pure dpsResists and power, like every other mage, plus the before mentioned casting skills. Our proc buff, damage shield, and power tap proc thing are useful, but not fantastic.We have a few spell lines that are not used- example the pillaging line of spells, desolation line of spells (the one were it says decreases health and power + summons nil crystal - i have NEVER seen this spell decrease the health of a target), also the gift line of spells is rarly used by me as a AE spell proc buff (maybe this spell would be good option in build in some type of deagro)I use pillaging all the time on long battles, as it returns a few hundred power to everyone in the group at not much cost to me. The 500 hp or whatever debuff isn't enough to really notice, but you can tell it's working with a parse vs. a lowbie mob . I happen to like gift, it's great to have up when you can go all out, and adds quite a bit of damage. I'd gladly give up the curse of whatever line in exchange for a permanent nil crystal generating buff though, similar to the pally crystal generating line. Theirs is a 2% (IIRC) chance to make a crystal when they get hit, so ours could be 2% when we hit a mob, or maybe 20% when a mob dies?My view on limitations on the WarlockSince LU13 we were changed to do some heavy AE damage, and we can do some serious DPS to AE mobs but the only problem is Agro.Well, we consume a lot of power too, but you can mitigate that somewhat with canni, regen items, bards/chanters, etc. It'd be nice to use less power (wis AA line ftw ).In my view the biggest problems with Warlocks and our lack of DPS is based on agro (blah blah agro stuff).Some people say Concussive works on multiple targets, some say it doesn't. It's hard to tell.Long casting times are a pain to.Eh, work out a good pattern and you don't even notice them. It's either long casting times or standing there staring at the walls waiting for your recast timers.We need some type of passive or non passive form of deagro that all warlocks can use, this will hopfully allow us to do mre DPS with the tools we already have.Would anyone object to warlcoks getting some form of AOE deagro?While I would definitely use one if it existed, I don't think it's necessary. Keeping agro where it belongs is everyone's job, and it's actually a job these days. If we got some kind of 30% or so transfer, then tanks could practically afk while we nuke as hard as we want, and that takes the skill out of the game.

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[Heart's Rage]

Your an idiot.

If you don't see a Damage vs. Aggro problem wether you are at raids or in a group agains 4+ mob encounters you must have App1 spells.

If you think that your class is fine the way it is, either you group with alot of gimped out classes or have your parser set wrong.

If you think the class is fine the way it is so be it, im not trying to convince you of anything, you must be the greatest warlock in the game with GODMODE III spells.

But as far as reading your last 50+ posts on other threads I have come to the conclusion you are a forum troll, you bash every post you have written most with 1 liners that dont make any sence.

 

Chew a few Advils and read this.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Message Edited by Heart's Rage on 03-18-200602:18 AM

[Korpo]

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Heart's Rage wrote:

Your an idiot.

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And yet I know the difference between you're and your.

[Heart's Rage]

nevermind.

 

Message Edited by Heart's Rage on 03-18-200604:39 AM

[Victicu]

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Heart's Rage wrote:

If you think that your class is fine the way it is, either you group with alot of gimped out classes or have your parser set wrong.

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Hearts Rage, tell us, please, who is out DPS'ing you so much?  If its assassins, wizards, or rangers, they are tier 1 dps too, they are supposed to do similar dps to us.Summoners are broken, they are the only non-tier 1 dps class with the ability to out-dps warlocks.  If any other non-tier 1 dps class is out dps'ing you, im sorry but you are just playing the class horribly.

[Heart's Rage]

In parse's over a full duration raid. Conj's pets, Necro Pets, Bruisers, Brigands, and  Swashy.

 

On large AoE encounters. Berserkers, Conj's

 

On Short duration fight's (Grinding even con's). almost everyone.

 

No beef with any Tier 1 DPS. Jelous of the fact that each Teir 1 DPS gets some sort of deaggro that they apply to there specialty full burn's, Warlocks Single target dps is very small, the AE dps is large but no deaggro to support it.

 

Want a bit more detail on what exactly needs tuning? here ya are, copied from another post of mine.

 

 

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Apoc: Current 666-1237 Damage, 4 sec cast, 45 sec recast 5 max AOE targets. Would help our DPS to single targets if it were 3 seconds to cast, however would be over powering to groups to cast it in 3 sec's. Therefore best fix I would suggest is narrowing the damage gap from 666-1237 to 850-1237. And whats this 5 target nonsence? Let us nuke a whole encounter, not like those PP:R 20 man encounters are to be taken seriously they're in there for kicks and laughs.

Concussive: Decreases Threat "On next successful hostile spell" by 1470-2450 2 sec cast 30 sec recast. The main problem with the spell is with the variation on damage for all our spells it is hard to calculate exactly what you are doing, Example: Void Distortion Crit for 4300, Threat did Minimum at 1470 cant exactly dpend on it, On top of that it is a 2 second cast making Void distortion a total of 5 secs to cast plusr recovery times. This spell was a step towards Sorc deaggro's, the problem is that it wasn't really well thought out for Warlocks and Wizards alike, We don't have a problem on single target mobs as far as aggro goes, our dps is slim.  This spell will be alot more benifical if it were a Direct de-aggro with a .5 sec casting time, It could be used in a situation where you over AE nuke 4+ mobs and one strips off the tank and heads your way, you can simply point, click and mob goes back to tank, maybe do away with the Hate rate and make it 1 or 2 threat positions.

Power feed: 4 seconds cast time is too long and the amount of mana transfered is too low to even bother casting this long spell. The group one is even worse, same casting time, this time it takes a Nil Crystal and your power. Would up our Utility if it were shaved to 2 secs on single target, and on the group one remove the Nil Crystal requirement but keep the 4 sec casting time.

Corrupt Gift: 67-124 poison damage extra to each spell cast for 30 seconds, 1 min 30 sec recast. Again the same revolving problem of needing a Nil crystal to use, and this spell doesn't effect each tick of any DoT, it is only on the first damage done. Without over powering it I would suggest this spell be re-tuned by doing away with the Nil Crystal requirement, cutting the damage in half and applying it to effect each tick of every poison DoT for the 30 second duration.

Void Distortion: No complaints here.

Nethros realm: This is commonly reffered to as "The Fancy DoT" this alone should be the only spell in our spell book that requires a Nil Crystal.

[Summoning a Nil Crystal] Curse of Isolation: Decreases Max HP of Target by 699, max power by 456. Every Warlock knows this spell does nothing, it is just used to summon a Nil Crystal, If your confused let me explain. Mob is pulled 10000/10000 HP, by the time you cast this 2 second spell lets say your group has taken the mob to 8500/10000, you debuff 699 Max HP, mob is now at 8500/9301, you did nothing!!! Want to make this spell usefull, I have 2 suggestions for this one. 1) Make it a .5 sec cast with no debuff at all, were just making Crystals here, not building rome. 2) keep the casting time, change the Debuff to 150 or 200 Magic, we have Magic spells and would be nice to offer a different debuff to a raid, not a huge debuff just something to debuff other then poison or disease.

Aura of Emptiness: 1 Sec cast, 20 sec recast. Causes 496 to 606 damage on target everytime the mob is hit by a spell or proc. Coulda just made this a Nuke for 1488-1818, does not make it cooler that it is triggered by anyone hitting the mob, fact remains it does the damage 1 way or another and it goes to your dps. I been back and forth on this spell and couldn't think of a logical point to defend it, you put something on the mob that makes a spell inflict disease damage everytime its struck? doesn't it do damage itself? My advise for making this spell a Tad better is add Direct damage to it, or make it direct damage all together and not depend on more spells to triiger it, or add a debuff to it. 

Mana cloak Line: Make it cross raid, even if it doesn't stack with other classes better spells, on thos x2 raids would help bring utility on our behalf.

Nullmail: pfft, glad this is being changed in LU21 or I would go into a rant that would put the person that designed this into a deep depression.

War Prye: No complaints here, great spell. don't touch it.

Roots: Break too often, too much power for the unreliability of them, shoudln't be breaking on debuffs at all, but learned thats what usually break mine. Spell progression should lessen the chance of breaking more. Warlocks can solo alot with patience, we may not make it look like we are power-houses when soloing, sometimes could take 8-10 min if we are scared enuff to be patient and don't want to die on a Named, we can get it done tho, only if we can kill the mob before the roots consume our power.

Scourge of Shadows: Not on my hotbar, true it is 1 sec cast but the damage is so miniscule, and likely never used by anyone during short grinding fights.

last but not least.

Dark infestation:  2 Sec cast time, 321 power!, does 480-586 every 3 secs for 18 secs with a 25% chance to spawn 3 Dark broodlings that each  do a PBAE last for 24 secs. Here is the problem with this spell, a Warlocks comfortable range of Nuking is somewhere between 25-30 meters, the Broodlings spawn at us and cast a short range AE then pause, they Advance 5 meters cast a short range AE then pause...... rinse and repeat til they reach the mob, by that time there short lived lives are done, alas the duration on the spell has worn off. On top of that while he DoT is going you still have a 25% chance to spawn them so when you do theyre gonna reset Alllllll the way back to you and start over on there turtle paced race to the mob. If you have nethros realm running and Aura the chance that your gonna spawn them with all those procs going off is 100%, they will just keep reseting on top of you. How can this be fixed? Make them go directly to the mob as fast as possible, or keep there slow paced antic's in the game but make them Explode when they finally reach a target.

 

Not much more to complain about, the rest of our spells are working and do great, however we are still lacking a way to deaggro an encounter, we specialize in AE's and should be able to deaggro in the same manner, Assassins fight 1 mob at a time, they deaggro 1 mob at a time (they deaggro what they are focusing on), tanks fight severel mobs at a time and can taunt several mobs at a time, get the drift? Warlocks fight Several mobs at a time, however we don't have the ability to do it in a controlled manner, we are to wild and need adult supervision when it comes down to a 4+ mob encounter. We desperatlly need a way to be able... No, i should say it like this... We are unable Fight an encounter that we specialize in,  the same way a Wizard nukes a single mob and deaggro's it with a single target deaggro. We just Die, it's on EQ2players.com Warlocks are the majority of the top 100 deaths on any server take away the plat farmers with the boofoojoofoo names and even those warlocks are up there.

 

Thanks for tuning in.

 

[Victicu]

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Heart's Rage wrote:

In parse's over a full duration raid. Conj's pets, Necro Pets, Bruisers, Brigands, and  Swashy.

 

On large AoE encounters. Berserkers, Conj's

 

On Short duration fight's (Grinding even con's). almost everyone.

 

No beef with any Tier 1 DPS. Jelous of the fact that each Teir 1 DPS gets some sort of deaggro that they apply to there specialty full burn's, Warlocks Single target dps is very small, the AE dps is large but no deaggro to support it.

 

Want a bit more detail on what exactly needs tuning? here ya are, copied from another post of mine. 

 

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Never had brigands or swashies out-dps me on any kind of encounter period.  Brusiers can come close but again, never higher than me.On AE encounter Berserkers can do well once every 3 mins. That doesnt bother me much.Who cares about grinding even cons... again like even you said in previous posts, this is titled End Game Warlocks.

[Heart's Rage]

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Victicus7 wrote:

On AE encounter Berserkers can do well once every 3 mins. That doesnt bother me much.Who cares about grinding even cons... again like even you said in previous posts, this is titled End Game Warlocks.

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Then again no one is really chain pulling raids are they? comes close to about 3 min per pull.

You already stated summoners are broken, but do the devs acknowledge that? Til they do i'll be here.

also, our brigands and swashies are pumping out 650-850 dps on single target raid mobs 74+, all the time, if you found a way to  pop 950 dps on a single target raid mob even once,  please make a Video of your fight theres just so much i can learn from you.

 

Also im not really into the bashing other classes, not asking for any classes to be nerfed, what ever fortune they have let it be.

But this is the end-game, were not comparing apples to oranges, in a raid with over-flow there is no rightful place for a Warlock, you take 24 people that can get the job done the best, when it comes down to it they say rouges mana restricts them from being consistant dps, I say they have poisons to keep there mana full. And when were discussing important mob fights i'm not talking about the trash xp mobs in instanced raid zones. We're takling named, the adds are either mezzable or killable easily, our AE's dont bring much to the table. you want power feed? you take a chanter, they can handle an entire group. you want Debuffs you take an Extra brigand or shaman, you dont take a Warlock with a 70 int and str debuff. You want damage, you bring along a conjurer and there trusty pet, dont have 1, take your pick Assasin or Ranger.

Then when I express intrest to help Warlocks get a well deserved fix people tell me it seems that I should just roll another class, Well when a Quest is broken no one tells you to just start another quest, or a bugged raid zone, no one says there are 10 other places to raid, they ask for a Fix. Simply put the Warlock class in some eyes may be designed to be a natrual wonder of how perfect it is, but judging from the dwindeling supply of Warlocks after LU13, and the low demand from them on some raiding guilds, we need some adjustment. we have been thru 8 LU's and not a single word on these warlock forums from any developer what so ever.

You call in Whining, I call it feedback.

 

 

edit: waiting for Vic to pick 5 random words from my reply and add 3 random words he is gonna pull out of his hat and miss the entire point I was trying to make.

 

Message Edited by Heart's Rage on 03-18-200603:02 PM

[emagine]

Victicus, b4 i post, I would like to know what your average raid parse is with what zone, your DPS numbers, EXCLUDING trash mobs. (I hope you dont include trash mobs on your parse to up your numbers.) Honestly I know your guild leader and all that good jive, but so far I have come to the assumption that Im a bit embarassed at some of your posts. Being a warlock myself i really dont know if were playing the same game.... I just dont see your logic on some posts... you seem to stand alone alot.  Wouldnt that trigger something? Sorry to be a bit harsh, but come on.Mimix - 70 Warlock - TDSps. what level 70 warlock would have only 1364 deaths? I just dont understand it.

Message Edited by emagine on 03-18-200606:02 PM

[Victicu]

Give me a couple days and i'll get some good parses if you so desire.  Oh,  alot of warlocks i talk to are also happy with their DPS, so im not the only one.  But i dont need others to confirm what i see every night.btw, i only have 1300 deaths due to the fact i played a Fury through half of DoF, but we have 2 in guild now, so no need to play him anymore.

Message Edited by Victicus7 on 03-18-200607:11 PM

[Victicu]

---

Heart's Rage wrote:

---

 if you found a way to  pop 950 dps on a single target raid mob even once,  please make a Video of your fight theres just so much i can learn from you.

---

Ok... so i did a quick scan through my log and found this one... on the Final Warden in the raid trial in HoF, this mob doesnt ae so got a decent parse off it, There ya go.. 942 dps, 2 minute fight so i think its fairly accuate...i'll get some better parses this week, i just wanted to throw this one up fast so Hearts Rage could feel better. btw, since this doesnt AE i could have used broodlings, but didnt cause i was lazy and not expecting to post this.(02:03) 1335702 | 10,859.37Conj 132461 | 1,076.92Assassin 121213 | 985.47Victicus 115982 | 942.94Bruiser 112353 | 913.44Wizard 108961 | 885.86Necro pet 97412 | 791.97Warlock 91435 | 743.37Brigand 91074 | 740.44Shadowknight 91061 | 740.33Guardian 69936 | 568.59Necro 67064 | 545.24Berserker 54756 | 445.17

Necro doesnt have his pet named after himself so he accually got 1334 DPS.

Message Edited by Victicus7 on 03-18-200607:45 PM

[emagine]

bro im talkin about a zone... a whole zone not one named mob

[Victicu]

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emagine wrote:bro im talkin about a zone... a whole zone not one named mob

---

Entire zone parses are not a good way to parse DPS, single mob parses are much better as each mob is a different situation and can lead to very different parses.Anyways im a bit confused with you, you want an entire zone parse, but without the trash?? so bascially you want the average DPS of all the named encounters.  Would it not be easier ( and much more informative) to show the DPS on each named encounter individually?

[Heart's Rage]

I understand your point of view, however final warden is not a single encounter, he has 2 friends.  

[Mastire]

---

Heart's Rage wrote:

Apoc: Current 666-1237 Damage, 4 sec cast, 45 sec recast 5 max AOE targets. Would help our DPS to single targets if it were 3 seconds to cast, however would be over powering to groups to cast it in 3 sec's. Therefore best fix I would suggest is narrowing the damage gap from 666-1237 to 850-1237. And whats this 5 target nonsence? Let us nuke a whole encounter, not like those PP:R 20 man encounters are to be taken seriously they're in there for kicks and laughs.

The Damage I'm fine with most times it ticks closer to the top. and 5 ticks of 1k on average is nice. But 5 targets whats the point. True most encounters only have 3- mobs. But for the one's with 6 mobs leavign 1 mob alive is kinda dumb.

Concussive: Decreases Threat "On next successful hostile spell" by 1470-2450 2 sec cast 30 sec recast. The main problem with the spell is with the variation on damage for all our spells it is hard to calculate exactly what you are doing, Example: Void Distortion Crit for 4300, Threat did Minimum at 1470 cant exactly dpend on it, On top of that it is a 2 second cast making Void distortion a total of 5 secs to cast plusr recovery times. This spell was a step towards Sorc deaggro's, the problem is that it wasn't really well thought out for Warlocks and Wizards alike, We don't have a problem on single target mobs as far as aggro goes, our dps is slim.  This spell will be alot more benifical if it were a Direct de-aggro with a .5 sec casting time, It could be used in a situation where you over AE nuke 4+ mobs and one strips off the tank and heads your way, you can simply point, click and mob goes back to tank, maybe do away with the Hate rate and make it 1 or 2 threat positions.

Spell is Fine Just needs to be made proc AE for warlocks.

Power feed: 4 seconds cast time is too long and the amount of mana transfered is too low to even bother casting this long spell. The group one is even worse, same casting time, this time it takes a Nil Crystal and your power. Would up our Utility if it were shaved to 2 secs on single target, and on the group one remove the Nil Crystal requirement but keep the 4 sec casting time.

I beleve your talking about teh group power drain/Power Feed spell here. I think that spell line shoul be removed entirly, has very little practicality. Raids every group I'm in have a bard and ill. So power for the group is no problem. And If I'm put in a group without those its not enough power to make a diff to the rest of my group. And the Nil crysal reqirement is just dumb.

Corrupt Gift: 67-124 poison damage extra to each spell cast for 30 seconds, 1 min 30 sec recast. Again the same revolving problem of needing a Nil crystal to use, and this spell doesn't effect each tick of any DoT, it is only on the first damage done. Without over powering it I would suggest this spell be re-tuned by doing away with the Nil Crystal requirement, cutting the damage in half and applying it to effect each tick of every poison DoT for the 30 second duration.

I Accualy like this spell. I think it should proc off the 1st tick of dots. But that is it.

Nethros realm: This is commonly reffered to as "The Fancy DoT" this alone should be the only spell in our spell book that requires a Nil Crystal.

Great Spell

[Summoning a Nil Crystal] Curse of Isolation: Decreases Max HP of Target by 699, max power by 456. Every Warlock knows this spell does nothing, it is just used to summon a Nil Crystal, If your confused let me explain. Mob is pulled 10000/10000 HP, by the time you cast this 2 second spell lets say your group has taken the mob to 8500/10000, you debuff 699 Max HP, mob is now at 8500/9301, you did nothing!!! Want to make this spell usefull, I have 2 suggestions for this one. 1) Make it a .5 sec cast with no debuff at all, were just making Crystals here, not building rome. 2) keep the casting time, change the Debuff to 150 or 200 Magic, we have Magic spells and would be nice to offer a different debuff to a raid, not a huge debuff just something to debuff other then poison or disease.

Agree Any change to this spell would be a positive. Currently this spell is only used for summoning Nil crystals

Aura of Emptiness: 1 Sec cast, 20 sec recast. Causes 496 to 606 damage on target everytime the mob is hit by a spell or proc. Coulda just made this a Nuke for 1488-1818, does not make it cooler that it is triggered by anyone hitting the mob, fact remains it does the damage 1 way or another and it goes to your dps. I been back and forth on this spell and couldn't think of a logical point to defend it, you put something on the mob that makes a spell inflict disease damage everytime its struck? doesn't it do damage itself? My advise for making this spell a Tad better is add Direct damage to it, or make it direct damage all together and not depend on more spells to triiger it, or add a debuff to it. 

This is one of my favorite spells. Put it as a nuke and it gives us more hate right away. This alows us to spead it out over the next 3 spells.

Mana cloak Line: Make it cross raid, even if it doesn't stack with other classes better spells, on thos x2 raids would help bring utility on our behalf.

Nullmail: pfft, glad this is being changed in LU21 or I would go into a rant that would put the person that designed this into a deep depression.

Any change to this spell is a positive spell couldn't have been worse

War Prye: No complaints here, great spell. don't touch it.

Roots: Break too often, too much power for the unreliability of them, shoudln't be breaking on debuffs at all, but learned thats what usually break mine. Spell progression should lessen the chance of breaking more. Warlocks can solo alot with patience, we may not make it look like we are power-houses when soloing, sometimes could take 8-10 min if we are scared enuff to be patient and don't want to die on a Named, we can get it done tho, only if we can kill the mob before the roots consume our power.

They don't break that often, and cower snares always, fears sometimes. Nice spells no need to change them.

Scourge of Shadows: Not on my hotbar, true it is 1 sec cast but the damage is so miniscule, and likely never used by anyone during short grinding fights.

This is a good spell for casting to start off a fight, its a fast cast low agro spell. And I use htat spell whenever I have 1 seconed between my nukes.

last but not least.

Dark infestation:  2 Sec cast time, 321 power!, does 480-586 every 3 secs for 18 secs with a 25% chance to spawn 3 Dark broodlings that each  do a PBAE last for 24 secs. Here is the problem with this spell, a Warlocks comfortable range of Nuking is somewhere between 25-30 meters, the Broodlings spawn at us and cast a short range AE then pause, they Advance 5 meters cast a short range AE then pause...... rinse and repeat til they reach the mob, by that time there short lived lives are done, alas the duration on the spell has worn off. On top of that while he DoT is going you still have a 25% chance to spawn them so when you do theyre gonna reset Alllllll the way back to you and start over on there turtle paced race to the mob. If you have nethros realm running and Aura the chance that your gonna spawn them with all those procs going off is 100%, they will just keep reseting on top of you. How can this be fixed? Make them go directly to the mob as fast as possible, or keep there slow paced antic's in the game but make them Explode when they finally reach a target.

Parce the broodlings they do 900-1200AE damage tick about 7 or 8 times. This spell agenst mobs who don't AE can outdamage anything else in your spell book. Respawning only means that they will stay out longer. Only complaint is only 1 warlock in a raid can have them  out wich is being fixed in LU21. 

---

[pharacyde]

---

Victicus7 wrote:

---

Heart's Rage wrote:

---

 if you found a way to  pop 950 dps on a single target raid mob even once,  please make a Video of your fight theres just so much i can learn from you.

---

Ok... so i did a quick scan through my log and found this one... on the Final Warden in the raid trial in HoF, this mob doesnt ae so got a decent parse off it, There ya go.. 942 dps, 2 minute fight so i think its fairly accuate...i'll get some better parses this week, i just wanted to throw this one up fast so Hearts Rage could feel better. btw, since this doesnt AE i could have used broodlings, but didnt cause i was lazy and not expecting to post this.(02:03) 1335702 | 10,859.37Conj 132461 | 1,076.92Assassin 121213 | 985.47Victicus 115982 | 942.94Bruiser 112353 | 913.44Wizard 108961 | 885.86Necro pet 97412 | 791.97Warlock 91435 | 743.37Brigand 91074 | 740.44Shadowknight 91061 | 740.33Guardian 69936 | 568.59Necro 67064 | 545.24Berserker 54756 | 445.17

Necro doesnt have his pet named after himself so he accually got 1334 DPS.

Message Edited by Victicus7 on 03-18-200607:45 PM

---

That dps seems right. With my guild i was parsing around 900dps through the whole zone. Even on the dragon.  Warlock's dps has more potential then most think. You just have to use your broodlings and procs right.

 

Anyway I support what Victicus says.

[Sar]

LoL !!! must be poor scouts around somewhere...

[Sar]

Wheres the Swashy and Ranger in that parse please?

[Dajuuk]

---

Victicus7 wrote:

---

emagine wrote:bro im talkin about a zone... a whole zone not one named mob

---

Entire zone parses are not a good way to parse DPS, single mob parses are much better as each mob is a different situation and can lead to very different parses.Anyways im a bit confused with you, you want an entire zone parse, but without the trash?? so bascially you want the average DPS of all the named encounters.  Would it not be easier ( and much more informative) to show the DPS on each named encounter individually?

---

A total raid parse could give a good indication of the total contribution of the class rather than a single encounter in which the mobs resistances etc, could skew the results.   It would be difficult to tell though if any big differances between that and a named only parse is from slacking off on the trash or an issue with the classes sustained damage which makes any results somewhat suspect.   However, given how radically our spell line up can vary from encounter to encounter, any single parse is of limited usefulness. 

[IllusiveThoughts]

---

Mastire wrote:

---

Heart's Rage wrote:

Concussive: Decreases Threat "On next successful hostile spell" by 1470-2450 2 sec cast 30 sec recast. The main problem with the spell is with the variation on damage for all our spells it is hard to calculate exactly what you are doing, Example: Void Distortion Crit for 4300, Threat did Minimum at 1470 cant exactly dpend on it, On top of that it is a 2 second cast making Void distortion a total of 5 secs to cast plusr recovery times. This spell was a step towards Sorc deaggro's, the problem is that it wasn't really well thought out for Warlocks and Wizards alike, We don't have a problem on single target mobs as far as aggro goes, our dps is slim.  This spell will be alot more benifical if it were a Direct de-aggro with a .5 sec casting time, It could be used in a situation where you over AE nuke 4+ mobs and one strips off the tank and heads your way, you can simply point, click and mob goes back to tank, maybe do away with the Hate rate and make it 1 or 2 threat positions.

Spell is Fine Just needs to be made proc AE for warlocks.

Roots: Break too often, too much power for the unreliability of them, shoudln't be breaking on debuffs at all, but learned thats what usually break mine. Spell progression should lessen the chance of breaking more. Warlocks can solo alot with patience, we may not make it look like we are power-houses when soloing, sometimes could take 8-10 min if we are scared enuff to be patient and don't want to die on a Named, we can get it done tho, only if we can kill the mob before the roots consume our power.

They don't break that often, and cower snares always, fears sometimes. Nice spells no need to change them.

Scourge of Shadows: Not on my hotbar, true it is 1 sec cast but the damage is

---

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have to disagree with you on these two points.

They need to change the way root breaks are calculated.

currently any spell that deals damage rolls 2x to break.  for wizards its 10% on hostile action and 10% on damage.

which means when casting a dd we should get a 20% chance to break a root.  thats 1-5 spells.  from testing done on the wizard forums the chance to break has been 33-50%.  It is not functioning as intended.

What they can do is change it to how they are chaning the ranger root to be only one roll to break the root with *hostile action*. 

In addition the amount of breakage needs to be looked into as in-game it breaks more often than advertized.

 

I also have to disagree with you on concussive.  This spell has sucked since it was implemented.  It logically makes no sense to reduce agro by generating more agro.  Let me re-state that to drive home the point.

You have to generate agro to reduce agro.  I dont know how much more wrong the idea behind this spell is.

If the devs will not reduce its cast timer or re-cast timer, they need to remove the secondary spell cast component and make it instantly de-agro. 

[CPronger]

I've been following this thread for a few days but have been reluctant to comment since I'm only level 41 and figured my views would be dismissed.  I find it funny that you guys pounded Victicus for parses, he provided one and now you're telling him why that parse is no good, lol.  I think his parse even on a single fight is indicative that the class is not as horribly broken as has been insinuated by others.  It sounds to me from reading this thread that warlock problems are the same as wizard problems.  Both classes have lousy agro management and need to hold back on their DPS to keep from pulling agro.  That's what would seem to be most in need of improvement to me.

Secondly, I see a lot of complaining about Nil Crystals being needed for spells.  I don't get this.  Since I got my first spell that created Nil Crystals, I've never had less than 30 of them in my bags.  They are nothing more than fluff and far from a limiting factor.  They have none of the horrible problems that Soul Shards for WoW warlocks have to put up with.  We toss out one fire and forget debuff and we get a crystal.  We have two of those debuffs so we can get two crystals per mob if we want to.  Suggesting that any spell that you really think is problematic would somehow be better if it didn't use a Nil Crystal is pretty ridiculous.

Just saw this:

I also have to disagree with you on concussive.  This spell has sucked since it was implemented.  It logically makes no sense to reduce agro by generating more agro.  Let me re-state that to drive home the point.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm new to EQ2 but can't you make macros that cast one spell followed by another?  If you can do that, what's to stop you from making a macro to cast Concussive followed by your level 1 DD or DoT?  Wouldn't that effectively be deagroing without causing any significant additional agro?

 

Message Edited by CPronger44 on 03-20-200604:24 PM

Message Edited by CPronger44 on 03-20-200604:27 PM

[Heart's Rage]

No your views wont be dismissed im just gonna answer the way i feel I am capable of to your questions.

 

 No one is pouncing on Victicus, it's just a slightly heated discussion. The parse he provided for Final Warden is a 3 man encounter and he couldnt break 950 on a group, im sure if he can't break it on 3, he wont be able to on 1 unless he hits some nice crits in a 1 min fight while a mob is dispatched. Anyone else saying they are breaking 1k dps on a single raid mob, let alone a single target named raid mob is full of it, they do nothing diffrently then I do, i debuff, throw up procs and go pedal to the metal on single targets, sometimes i get to about 800 dps if the mob is killed quickly, but so do Teir 2 DPS. parsed by thousands of different parsers all over the boards.

 

 

Nil crystals, You may seem to be overflowing with them now, but soon you'll have more spells that require them, and when raiding you'll be using them often, they become a bit of a hastle considering your doing very poor debuffs with long casting times and eating your mana away.

 

The Macro thing is a great idea, However it will make the spell that your casting just that 2 seconds longer for a de-aggro thats breaking you even, at best. Also does not work on AE's only works on the mob your currently targeting.

 

Thats all.

[Victicu]

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Heart's Rage wrote:

 The parse he provided for Final Warden is a 3 man encounter and he couldnt break 950 on a group, im sure if he can't break it on 3, he wont be able to on 1 unless he hits some nice crits in a 1 min fight while a mob is dispatched.

---

We mez the adds, thats why i wasnt using dark infestation....Heres a couple more single target parses... hard to do entire zones when theres really only vyemm to do it in...All of these single targets. btw, we had no assassins at the raid, and we dont currently have a ranger in the guild.  The conj was boxed by someone who usually doesnt play him, and the necro was having lag problems that night.(02:1 1453699 | 10,534.05Victicus 150044 | 1,087.28Wizard 126530 | 916.88Charmed Pet 98480 | 713.62Swash 95538 | 692.30Brig 94725 | 686.41Guard 73748 | 534.41Brig 73742 | 534.36Warlock 71615 | 518.95Shadowknight 71549 | 518.47Necro pet 58229 | 421.95Fury 53636 | 388.67Berserker 52461 | 380.15Dystrax 50122 | 363.20Necro 47028 | 340.78(01:33) 933718 | 10,039.98Victicus 106413 | 1,144.23Wizard 91258 | 981.27Swash 76269 | 820.10Brig 72378 | 778.26Warlock 62159 | 668.38Charmed pet 59955 | 644.68Brig 49647 | 533.84Fury 42592 | 457.98Fury 40733 | 437.99Shadowknight 38089 | 409.56Guard 37971 | 408.29Coercer 34285 | 368.66Berserker 34157 | 367.28You can keep telling me its immpossible, and i'll keep posting these every night. :smileywink:

Message Edited by Victicus7 on 03-21-200611:05 AM

[Lord Montague]

Good information Victicus.  You prove that there is hope for warlocks in their current state.

Message Edited by Lord Montague on 03-21-200604:33 PM

[MilkToa]

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Victicus7 wrote:

---

Heart's Rage wrote:

 The parse he provided for Final Warden is a 3 man encounter and he couldnt break 950 on a group, im sure if he can't break it on 3, he wont be able to on 1 unless he hits some nice crits in a 1 min fight while a mob is dispatched.

---

We mez the adds, thats why i wasnt using dark infestation....Heres a couple more single target parses... hard to do entire zones when theres really only vyemm to do it in...All of these single targets. btw, we had no assassins at the raid, and we dont currently have a ranger in the guild.  The conj was boxed by someone who usually doesnt play him, and the necro was having lag problems that night.(02:1 1453699 | 10,534.05Victicus 150044 | 1,087.28Wizard 126530 | 916.88Charmed Pet 98480 | 713.62Swash 95538 | 692.30Brig 94725 | 686.41Guard 73748 | 534.41Brig 73742 | 534.36Warlock 71615 | 518.95Shadowknight 71549 | 518.47Necro pet 58229 | 421.95Fury 53636 | 388.67Berserker 52461 | 380.15Dystrax 50122 | 363.20Necro 47028 | 340.78(01:33) 933718 | 10,039.98Victicus 106413 | 1,144.23Wizard 91258 | 981.27Swash 76269 | 820.10Brig 72378 | 778.26Warlock 62159 | 668.38Charmed pet 59955 | 644.68Brig 49647 | 533.84Fury 42592 | 457.98Fury 40733 | 437.99Shadowknight 38089 | 409.56Guard 37971 | 408.29Coercer 34285 | 368.66Berserker 34157 | 367.28You can keep telling me its immpossible, and i'll keep posting these every night. :smileywink:

Message Edited by Victicus7 on 03-21-200611:05 AM

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I'm curious what's the difference between you and the other warlock on the list?  A lot of warlocks quote performance numbers comparable to your unnamed warlock.

[Dajuuk]

Vic, What classes do you have in your group.   What about that other warlock.   Are you significantly higher level than him?   This is a 3 mob encounter?   So your picking up AoE damage in part of the fight at least?   Is that other warlock maybe focusing on single target damage only?   Help us understand that differance.  Plus that unamed warlock was outdamaged by.

 

unamed Brig 3%

unamed Guard 3%

unamed Brig 32%

unnamed Swash 33%

Charmed Pet 37.5%

Wizard 77%

You 109.5%

 

It would be interesting to what the disparity is.   Group make up?   Level?  Gear?  AA's?