Attempting to address Warlock issues post LU13

[NG23985_01]

First of all, I need to say two things, and they need to be very clear.

1) This is not a call for a nerf to ANY class!

2) If Warlock had been an "AE Specialist" from the beginning, I'd have NEVER made one! 55 days+ wasted playtime on my Warlock, due to the class-role change that was forced on us in LU13.

 

I am extremly dissatisfied with Warlock as of LU13, and I know I'm not the only Warlock who feels this way - look around, there are very few Warlocks now. Do not turn this into a flame post! I created this post with the goal in mind to get some much needed improvements into the class that I've spent over 55 days playing, not to start any flame wars. Keep it constructive!

 

Now, on with my post. Specifically, I am addressing Wizard vs Warlock spell damage. We were "supposed" to be on par with each other, post LU13, but that's definately not the case. I see Wizard's complaining about their DPS compared to the melee classes, and maybe that's justified. I dont know, I dont play a Wizard. Whatever happens, I feel betrayed when Sony said that Wizard and Warlock would be relatively equal - we are far from it.

 

Every single Wizard damage spell does 1 of 2 things. They either hit for more damage than their Warlock counterpart, OR they have a lower recast time. The result is the same - every single Wizard spell does more damage per second than the "equivalent" Warlock spell. It's difficult to compare unique spells like Devastation vs Ice Comet, so I'll leave those aside for now. My focus is on all other spells that Sorcerers share. Again, remember this is NOT a call for a nerf to Wizards - rather a demand to SoE to bring Warlock's spells up to par with Wizard's.

 

~ If anybody is wondering, these screenshots were made at Level 53 with 335 Intelligence.

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/spccomparison.jpg

 

These are a couple of inequalities that could be easily addressed.

 

First, Wizards can cast their "power transfer" spell on anybody - even people outside their group. Warlocks cannot do this - for us to cast Endow Energy (or similar spell in the line), we must be grouped with that person. Second, Seal of Ebon Thought vs Fist of the Tyrant. FotT provides a clear benefit to both the Wizard and the melee folks in his/her group. The Intelligence provided gives Wizard (and other casters in the group, if applicable) an increase in spell damage. The strength will provide more damage (theoretically) to melee classes in the group. Seal of Ebon Thought is absolutely and totally worthless. I still use "Vivid Seal" because it gives me a tiny damage boost. I will NOT be satisfied with Warlock until this spell is reverted back to its Pre-LU13 state of being an Intelligence buff. I don't much care if it gets the Strength or Poison mitigation back or not.

 

 

~

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/singlecomparison2.jpg

Arctic Icicles vs Anarchic Maelstrom : both are an upgrade to the Sorcerer spell Freezing Whorl. Arctic Icicles does damage and reduces elemental mitigation. Anarchic Maelstrom does NO DAMAGE at all, and as a result, Wizard has 1 DoT more than Warlock does. Anarchic Maelstrom also has less of a mitigation debuff than Arctic Icicles, although maelstrom is AE.

 

Ball of Incinceration vs Null Distortion : Due to the power-return on Null Distortion, it is significantly more efficient than Ball of Incineration. However, BoI has much greater DPS. In my opinion, the cast time on these spells needs to be reduced to 2. There are plenty of Scout attacks that do damage similar to this, and they dont have to spend 3 seconds casting them. Next, BoI has 9 seconds recast time ; Null Distortion has 12. This means that no matter what (excluding resists), Wizard's will always outdamage Warlock's spell.

 

Fiery Convulsions vs Scourge of Shadows : SoS ticks every 3 seconds, FC ticks every 2. The duration on SoS is longer than on FC, but the total damage is close to the same. Since SoS has a longer-duration, it takes longer for it to do its damage. Again, Warlock is surpassed in DPS by Wizards - a class we're supposed to be equal to.

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/singlecomparison1.jpg

 

Incapacitate vs Thwart : Both are stuns, both share the same power cost, cast time, and recast timer. Incapacitate hits quite a bit harder than Thwart - again more damage on the Wizard side.

 

Sunstrike vs Soul Blister : Same issue with Ball of Incineration and Null Distortion - Wizard's version has less recast time.

 

Cremate vs Shadowed Pyre : Total damage is the same, but Cremate does its damage in 8 total seconds (2 cast + 6 recast) - Shadowed Pyre takes 10 seconds to do the same damage. (2 cast, 8 recast)

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aecomparison.jpg

 

Warlock is an AE Specialist eh? Aside from Devastation, here's a look at how Warlock AE's measure up against Wizard AE's.

 

Dark Nebula vs Shocking Flash : Efficiency is almost identical, but Wizard's does significantly more DPS due to having a much lower recast time.

 

Nil Absolution vs Icy Wind : Warlock's does a little bit more DPS, but at a significant cost to efficiency. Wizard reigns for efficiency in these spell parallels.

 

Boundless Fury vs Fiery Inferno : Warlock's version does more DPS in this category, due to a 2 second lower recast time. Total damage and Efficiency are the same.

 

Also, a note on some spells that I didnt get screenshots for, Aura of Emptiness vs Frostshield. Both spells inflict 3 ticks of damage to a monster. Wizard's version hits much harder than Warlock's version. Also, Wizard's has 16 seconds recast, compared to Warlock's 20 seconds. This further makes Wizard's do more DPS. In addition, Warlock's is a debuff - this means it can be resisted on the initial cast. Wizard's is a buff - it CANNOT be resisted on the initial cast.

 

~

Keep it constructive please!!! We Warlocks need to stick together and get these inequalities fixed. I created my Warlock on November 11th, 2004, and at that point in time, Warlock was NOT an AE Specialist. I never, EVER signed on to be an AE Specialist. I propose to give Wizard's an equivalent to Devastation, and Warlock's an equivalent to Ice Comet, and address the issues that I've shown above.

(Edit: Moved the section where i stated Level and Int, for clarity, and a typo)

 

Message Edited by NG23985_01 on 11-09-2005 09:09 PM

[Heart's Rage]

Yea i used to think so too bro... Belive me. Search my post, I had the strongest case against it.

But to make it short and sweet on a single raid you can do 450 dps and not draw aggro, which is a good blessing.

On the other hand you can reach over 1500 dps with out breaking a sweat on any group raid mobs or group XP mobs. It doesnt even take thought. Just cast 3 AE's and fill in with some single target DD's. Its brainless.

 

Can you name another class that can do so much on single Target and then triple it in a group Encounter? Nah there isnt any, we are very well off. Especially that 75% of thegame is now groups.

I know you want Ice comet that does 4 to 5 k dps every 45 secs, it would be nice, but we have soul Blister 713 - 1325 every 6 secs.. do the math

Dont look a gift horse in the mouth, we are kings amongst men, lets not give em a reason to toy with us too much, were pretty well off right now. 

 

 

~ Cosmic Warlock of the 60th plague

    Iconoclast - Permafrost server

Message Edited by Heart's Rage on 11-09-2005 09:41 PM

[NG23985_01]

"on a single raid you can do " - that's your problem right there. You're single-minded, and think ONLY about raids. I didnt see a single mention of EXP groups of soloing in your post. Where are all the EXP Warlocks? Pre-LU13, i saw Warlocks everywhere. Now we're very sparse. How many Level 60 Warlocks does your server have? I'm willing to bet a lot less than Level 60 Wizards, and why? Wizards have it a lot better than we do right now - Warlocks are in dire need of improvement!

 

I dont care about raiding. In solo, we are vastly inferior to Wizards. In EXP groups, we are vastly inferior to Wizards, and in my own personal experience, we're inferior in raiding as well. Again, not a call for a nerf to wizards, rather DEMANDING that Warlocks be brought up to par.

 

"Ice comet that does 4 to 5 k dps every 45 secs" - You cant do 4-5k dps "every 45 seconds" DPS means "Damage Per Second"

 

DPS is calculated by the following equasion: DPS = Damage/(Cast+Variable) ; where Variable is either the Recast time, or the Duration of the spell (If its a DoT, and the DoT lasts longer than its Recast time.

 

With 335 intelligence, Ice Comet alone, at Adept 1, hits for 2294-4261. If chain-cast, and no resists or other spells are used, this equates to.. 2294/(4.0+45.0) = 46.81 to 4261/(4.0+45.0) = 86.95 DPS.

Edit: added parse data below.

Moorgard (I think it was him) Said Wizards and Warlocks would be on top for DPS in most situations. Here's some data from several fights, with me VS a certain Scout class. I wont say which type of Scout, so people cant tell me I'm calling for a nerf to them. Also, none of my spells are below Adept 1. As you can see from the data below, a similarly equipped Scout (of a particular type) owns Warlock in DPS. I'm not saying that scout type needs to be nerfed, rather Warlock empowered.

Fight 1: 1-monster: Me: 3325 damage, 332 DPS - Scout: 4489 damage, 448 DPS

Fight 2: 3-monsters: me: 7766 damage, 337 DPS - Scout: 14751 damage, 641 dps

Fight 3: 1 monster: me: 2524, 168 - Scout: 10028, 668 (Used one of those long-recast attacks here, fight didnt last long enough for me to do squat)

Fight 4: Named monster: Me: 28324, 246 - Scout: 60430, 525 (I was at 20% Power at the end of the fight, the scout still had 65%)

Fight 5: Named monster (different): Me 29759, 283 - Scout: 48395, 460

Fight 6: 1-monster:  Me: 10582, 401 - Scout: 12421, 564

Fight 7: 3-monsters: me: 12866, 402 - Scout: 14772, 461

 

Message Edited by NG23985_01 on 11-09-2005 10:40 PM

[pharacyde]

---

Every single Wizard damage spell does 1 of 2 things. They either hit for more damage than their Warlock counterpart, OR they have a lower recast time. The result is the same - every single Wizard spell does more damage per second than the "equivalent" Warlock spell. It's difficult to compare unique spells like Devastation vs Ice Comet, so I'll leave those aside for now. My focus is on all other spells that Sorcerers share. Again, remember this is NOT a call for a nerf to Wizards - rather a demand to SoE to bring Warlock's spells up to par with Wizard's. Yeah the mana return of null distortion doesn't count as 2things? In DD it is VERY hard for me to run OOP on raids, I can keep casting and casting and barely see my power do down. Wizards have an harder time there.

~ If anybody is wondering, these screenshots were made at Level 53 with 335 Intelligence.

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/spccomparison.jpg

 

These are a couple of inequalities that could be easily addressed.

 

First, Wizards can cast their "power transfer" spell on anybody - even people outside their group. Warlocks cannot do this - for us to cast Endow Energy (or similar spell in the line), we must be grouped with that person. Second, Seal of Ebon Thought vs Fist of the Tyrant. FotT provides a clear benefit to both the Wizard and the melee folks in his/her group. The Intelligence provided gives Wizard (and other casters in the group, if applicable) an increase in spell damage. The strength will provide more damage (theoretically) to melee classes in the group. Seal of Ebon Thought is absolutely and totally worthless. I still use "Vivid Seal" because it gives me a tiny damage boost. I will NOT be satisfied with Warlock until this spell is reverted back to its Pre-LU13 state of being an Intelligence buff. I don't much care if it gets the Strength or Poison mitigation back or not.

 

SoET isn't useless.  I played around a bit with my troub to see how it affects resists and fizzles. And it realy helps when you are fighting orange mobs. (Troubs have the same kind of buff). Also the +INT and +STR buffs are welcome for dps classes and SoBT helps all casters, it is helpfull for different classes but still helpfull. You just have to keep in mind who the buff actualy is going to help.

~

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/singlecomparison2.jpg

Arctic Icicles vs Anarchic Maelstrom : both are an upgrade to the Sorcerer spell Freezing Whorl. Arctic Icicles does damage and reduces elemental mitigation. Anarchic Maelstrom does NO DAMAGE at all, and as a result, Wizard has 1 DoT more than Warlock does. Anarchic Maelstrom also has less of a mitigation debuff than Arctic Icicles, although maelstrom is AE.

 

Ball of Incinceration vs Null Distortion : Due to the power-return on Null Distortion, it is significantly more efficient than Ball of Incineration. However, BoI has much greater DPS. In my opinion, the cast time on these spells needs to be reduced to 2. There are plenty of Scout attacks that do damage similar to this, and they dont have to spend 3 seconds casting them. Next, BoI has 9 seconds recast time ; Null Distortion has 12. This means that no matter what (excluding resists), Wizard's will always outdamage Warlock's spell. 

Fiery Convulsions vs Scourge of Shadows : SoS ticks every 3 seconds, FC ticks every 2. The duration on SoS is longer than on FC, but the total damage is close to the same. Since SoS has a longer-duration, it takes longer for it to do its damage. Again, Warlock is surpassed in DPS by Wizards - a class we're supposed to be equal to.

  Only I can say here is that wizards should be better then us in DD. And you shouldn't even ask to get even with them on DD. SoE clearly said we would be AE specialists and wizards would be DD specialists. The reason of that choice is obvious to me, just look at the level 50 spells and those are the class defining spells for each class. Our class defining spell is AE and that of the wizard is DD. So plz don't come now like 'oh I didn't know I would be the pwn in AE', because post or pre LU13 we have always been that way.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/singlecomparison1.jpg

 

Incapacitate vs Thwart : Both are stuns, both share the same power cost, cast time, and recast timer. Incapacitate hits quite a bit harder than Thwart - again more damage on the Wizard side.

  Same Wizards are DD specialists we are not.

Sunstrike vs Soul Blister : Same issue with Ball of Incineration and Null Distortion - Wizard's version has less recast time.

 

Lellele Cremate vs Shadowed Pyre : Total damage is the same, but Cremate does its damage in 8 total seconds (2 cast + 6 recast) - Shadowed Pyre takes 10 seconds to do the same damage. (2 cast, 8 recast)

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aecomparison.jpg

 

Warlock is an AE Specialist eh? Aside from Devastation, here's a look at how Warlock AE's measure up against Wizard AE's.

 

Dark Nebula vs Shocking Flash : Efficiency is almost identical, but Wizard's does significantly more DPS due to having a much lower recast time.

 

Nil Absolution vs Icy Wind : Warlock's does a little bit more DPS, but at a significant cost to efficiency. Wizard reigns for efficiency in these spell parallels.

 

Boundless Fury vs Fiery Inferno : Warlock's version does more DPS in this category, due to a 2 second lower recast time. Total damage and Efficiency are the same.

 

Also, a note on some spells that I didnt get screenshots for, Aura of Emptiness vs Frostshield. Both spells inflict 3 ticks of damage to a monster. Wizard's version hits much harder than Warlock's version. Also, Wizard's has 16 seconds recast, compared to Warlock's 20 seconds. This further makes Wizard's do more DPS. In addition, Warlock's is a debuff - this means it can be resisted on the initial cast. Wizard's is a buff - it CANNOT be resisted on the initial cast.

  For AE I think you forget our damage shield as first. It damages the whole encounter when the MT gets hit. It doesnt add to our dps but it is still an AE spell that adds ALOT of dps to the group. The wizard spell is only single target. Our debuff is Contagious and AE. The wizard debuff isnt. Dark infestation will proc broodlings that do AE nukes. Anyway if you are so correct on the above data, how come warlocks can do up to 2-3k dps on AE mobs easily and wizards cant even reach 1k dps... Our debuff + gift line can do alot of damage.

~Keep it constructive please!!! We Warlocks need to stick together and get these inequalities fixed. I created my Warlock on November 11th, 2004, and at that point in time, Warlock was NOT an AE Specialist. I never, EVER signed on to be an AE Specialist. I propose to give Wizard's an equivalent to Devastation, and Warlock's an equivalent to Ice Comet, and address the issues that I've shown above.

(Edit: Moved the section where i stated Level and Int, for clarity, and a typo)

 

Message Edited by NG23985_01 on 11-09-2005 09:09 PM

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For now I dont see any reason to complain. I am happy with what I get. If you play your warlock smart you will see you can outdps wizards on any type of encounter. Just use your procs correctly. I think your are too much biased on recast time. You should more look at casting times and the damage that can be done instead of the recast time. Both wizards and warlocsk have enough spells to keep chain casting. Wizards can do it with less spells then warlocks but we can stack alot of DoTs also. It all adds up realy quick. TBH I have done instances alot where alot of final mobs are DD only, And the wizards or any other dps class can not compete with the way warlocks can stack all their dots and then on top of that add DD nukes. Maybe it is my playstyle that is better then other gamers, I dont know, But all I can say, is that at the end of the day my dps all round is better then any other class. And the DD issue you are bringing up isnt an issue, it is stuberness to experiment with the spells to find out what combination does the most DD damage.

Message Edited by pharacyde on 11-10-2005 12:55 AM

[Tanit]

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NG23985_01 wrote:

 

The less recast time on single target DD's is because of the single target specialists wizards are, obviously..

  

Dark Nebula vs Shocking Flash : Efficiency is almost identical, but Wizard's does significantly more DPS due to having a much lower recast time.

True, Dark Nabula also has a stun though.

Nil Absolution vs Icy Wind : Warlock's does a little bit more DPS, but at a significant cost to efficiency. Wizard reigns for efficiency in these spell parallels.

What? NA does more total dmg AND does it instantly instead over 9 sec. So spreading over a longer time is only better of a wizard has it? Your spell also has less recast time.

Boundless Fury vs Fiery Inferno : Warlock's version does more DPS in this category, due to a 2 second lower recast time. Total damage and Efficiency are the same.

And interupts. Yours is better, as it should be.  

Also, a note on some spells that I didnt get screenshots for, Aura of Emptiness vs Frostshield. Both spells inflict 3 ticks of damage to a monster. Wizard's version hits much harder than Warlock's version. Also, Wizard's has 16 seconds recast, compared to Warlock's 20 seconds. This further makes Wizard's do more DPS. In addition, Warlock's is a debuff - this means it can be resisted on the initial cast. Wizard's is a buff - it CANNOT be resisted on the initial cast.

You should compare it to nihilism, both the same lvl and both a dmg shield. Except that nihilism is better ofcourse. Keep it constructive please!!! We Warlocks need to stick together and get these inequalities fixed. I created my Warlock on November 11th, 2004, and at that point in time, Warlock was NOT an AE Specialist. I never, EVER signed on to be an AE Specialist. I propose to give Wizard's an equivalent to Devastation, and Warlock's an equivalent to Ice Comet, and address the issues that I've shown above. No at nov 2004 both classes sucked. After the first changes warlocks did far much more ae dmg than wizards and about the same single target though. You've been very good at ae for a very long time.

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[Tanit]

Forgot a few =)

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NG23985_01 wrote:

 

First, Wizards can cast their "power transfer" spell on anybody - even people outside their group. Warlocks cannot do this - for us to cast Endow Energy (or similar spell in the line), we must be grouped with that person. The description says yours works raidwide, if it doesnt then its a bug that should be fixed. Second, Seal of Ebon Thought vs Fist of the Tyrant. FotT provides a clear benefit to both the Wizard and the melee folks in his/her group. The Intelligence provided gives Wizard (and other casters in the group, if applicable) an increase in spell damage. The strength will provide more damage (theoretically) to melee classes in the group. Seal of Ebon Thought is absolutely and totally worthless. I still use "Vivid Seal" because it gives me a tiny damage boost. I will NOT be satisfied with Warlock until this spell is reverted back to its Pre-LU13 state of being an Intelligence buff. I don't much care if it gets the Strength or Poison mitigation back or not.

Which buff is better depends on your playstyle, assuming your buff works ofc. I'm raiding atm and the buff i have is useless (not even up), since im grouped with a coercer (or any other mage that buffs int).  

Arctic Icicles vs Anarchic Maelstrom : both are an upgrade to the Sorcerer spell Freezing Whorl. Arctic Icicles does damage and reduces elemental mitigation. Anarchic Maelstrom does NO DAMAGE at all, and as a result, Wizard has 1 DoT more than Warlock does. Anarchic Maelstrom also has less of a mitigation debuff than Arctic Icicles, although maelstrom is AE.

Awesome, 350-650dmg (adept3/390int) every 24sec. Great damage, really...

---

[NG23985_01]

Tanith_,

Endow Energy does work raid-wide. Wizard's Essential Intromission works on people even OUTSIDE of the raid. It's like how healers could only heal people in their group, a long time ago. Now they can heal people outside of their group. Wizards can "power heal" people outside their group, but Warlocks cannot.

 

Your attitude seems to indicate you think Wizards SHOULD be Single-Target specialists, and Warlocks SHOULD be AE Specialists. I am taking Sony word for word, when they said the two subs would be relatively equal. Two different specialities IS NOT equal.

Also, Nil Absolution Adept 1, 335 intelligence does 905 to 1680 per monster. Adept 1 Icy Wind with 335 intelligence does 4 ticks of 241-448, or 964-1792 damage per target. This is indeed more than Nil Absolution, and greater efficiency! My mathematics are not wrong.

And finally a comment about Arctic Icicles - the damage it does might not be much, but its still damage! This further divides Wizards and Warlocks in damage.

[QQ-Fatman]

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NG23985_01 wrote:

 

Now, on with my post. Specifically, I am addressing Wizard vs Warlock spell damage. We were "supposed" to be on par with each other, post LU13, but that's definately not the case. I see Wizard's complaining about their DPS compared to the melee classes, and maybe that's justified. I dont know, I dont play a Wizard. Whatever happens, I feel betrayed when Sony said that Wizard and Warlock would be relatively equal - we are far from it.

 

Single target: Wizards = 10%-25% more dps than warlocks.

Multiple targets: Warlcoks = 25%-300% more dps than wizards.

 

~ If anybody is wondering, these screenshots were made at Level 53 with 335 Intelligence.

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/spccomparison.jpg

 

These are a couple of inequalities that could be easily addressed.

 

First, Wizards can cast their "power transfer" spell on anybody - even people outside their group. Warlocks cannot do this - for us to cast Endow Energy (or similar spell in the line), we must be grouped with that person. Second,

 

I havent had a chance to use it in a raid... but if you cant cast it on raid members, you might wanna /bug it.

 

Seal of Ebon Thought vs Fist of the Tyrant. FotT provides a clear benefit to both the Wizard and the melee folks in his/her group. The Intelligence provided gives Wizard (and other casters in the group, if applicable) an increase in spell damage. The strength will provide more damage (theoretically) to melee classes in the group. Seal of Ebon Thought is absolutely and totally worthless. I still use "Vivid Seal" because it gives me a tiny damage boost. I will NOT be satisfied with Warlock until this spell is reverted back to its Pre-LU13 state of being an Intelligence buff. I don't much care if it gets the Strength or Poison mitigation back or not.

 

Int buff is only good in solo. Lu16 just made all mage's int buff non-stackable - you cant have it up. Also, 50 int is only a 6.75% increase in spell damage, while seal line gives you 4.7%-45% more chance to hit a yellow or higher mob. (these numbers are from a dev's post.) I really think seal of ebon thought is better especially in group and raids.

 

~

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/singlecomparison2.jpg

Arctic Icicles vs Anarchic Maelstrom : both are an upgrade to the Sorcerer spell Freezing Whorl. Arctic Icicles does damage and reduces elemental mitigation. Anarchic Maelstrom does NO DAMAGE at all, and as a result, Wizard has 1 DoT more than Warlock does. Anarchic Maelstrom also has less of a mitigation debuff than Arctic Icicles, although maelstrom is AE.

 

The DoT is very low, even lower than our static pulse line. I really dont want the DoT because it doesnt help at all and only breaks roots when I solo.

 

Ball of Incinceration vs Null Distortion : Due to the power-return on Null Distortion, it is significantly more efficient than Ball of Incineration. However, BoI has much greater DPS. In my opinion, the cast time on these spells needs to be reduced to 2. There are plenty of Scout attacks that do damage similar to this, and they dont have to spend 3 seconds casting them. Next, BoI has 9 seconds recast time ; Null Distortion has 12. This means that no matter what (excluding resists), Wizard's will always outdamage Warlock's spell.

 

Yes, wizards' does 25% more dps than warlocks' here at the cost of almost double mana (25% lower recast and no manatap.)

 

Fiery Convulsions vs Scourge of Shadows : SoS ticks every 3 seconds, FC ticks every 2. The duration on SoS is longer than on FC, but the total damage is close to the same. Since SoS has a longer-duration, it takes longer for it to do its damage. Again, Warlock is surpassed in DPS by Wizards - a class we're supposed to be equal to.

 

Again, wizards' does 25% more dps, but costs 25% more mana (shorter duration.)

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/singlecomparison1.jpg

 

Incapacitate vs Thwart : Both are stuns, both share the same power cost, cast time, and recast timer. Incapacitate hits quite a bit harder than Thwart - again more damage on the Wizard side.

 

Incapaciitate = 3sec stun

Thwart = 4sec stun

enough said...

 

Sunstrike vs Soul Blister : Same issue with Ball of Incineration and Null Distortion - Wizard's version has less recast time.

 

Wizards' does 25% more dps, but costs 25% more mana (shorter recast.)

 

Cremate vs Shadowed Pyre : Total damage is the same, but Cremate does its damage in 8 total seconds (2 cast + 6 recast) - Shadowed Pyre takes 10 seconds to do the same damage. (2 cast, 8 recast)

 

Wizards' does 20% more dps, but costs 20% more mana (shorter recast.)

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqp9ii/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aecomparison.jpg

 

Warlock is an AE Specialist eh? Aside from Devastation, here's a look at how Warlock AE's measure up against Wizard AE's.

 

Aside from devastation? No, devastation is the biggest imbalance part.

At the same mana cost, the saem cast/recast time. Ice comet only does 27% more dps than devastation.

However, devastation does 57% more dps vs. two targets, 136% more vs. three, 215% more vs. four, 294% more vs. five. And now it can even hit unlimited targets in an encounter...

I'm sorry, before they make ice comet do at least 50% more damage, I'll never give up comparing these two spells. This is so imbalanced that I have to post in every wizard vs. warlcok thread...

 

Dark Nebula vs Shocking Flash : Efficiency is almost identical, but Wizard's does significantly more DPS due to having a much lower recast time.

 

I agree here, warlocks' should do more dps than wizards' - but, wizards' need to have AE stun for 3.9sec too.

 

Nil Absolution vs Icy Wind : Warlock's does a little bit more DPS, but at a significant cost to efficiency. Wizard reigns for efficiency in these spell parallels.

 

Little bit more? umm it does 25% more dps and costs 25% more mana just like ball of incineration vs. null distortion.

This one also does damage instantly, unlike icy wind takes 9sec to do full damage. Also, icy wind doesnt have manatap like null distortion has over ball of incineration

 

Boundless Fury vs Fiery Inferno : Warlock's version does more DPS in this category, due to a 2 second lower recast time. Total damage and Efficiency are the same.

 

Warlocks' does 20% more dps and costs 20% more mana.

 

Also, a note on some spells that I didnt get screenshots for, Aura of Emptiness vs Frostshield. Both spells inflict 3 ticks of damage to a monster. Wizard's version hits much harder than Warlock's version. Also, Wizard's has 16 seconds recast, compared to Warlock's 20 seconds. This further makes Wizard's do more DPS. In addition, Warlock's is a debuff - this means it can be resisted on the initial cast. Wizard's is a buff - it CANNOT be resisted on the initial cast.

 

These two are very different. I wouldnt compare these two to each other. Warlocks have a very good damage shield that doesnt cost extra mana to keep it up.

Also, aura does give you more single target dps (that's why i siad wizards are 10%-25% better but not just 25%,) while frostshield doesnt add to wizards' dps and cannot be used in solo (unless you wanna fight melee.)

~

I propose to give Wizard's an equivalent to Devastation, and Warlock's an equivalent to Ice Comet, and address the issues that I've shown above.

 

Actually... I like this idea

(Edit: Moved the section where i stated Level and Int, for clarity, and a typo)

One more comparison here - single target root:

In Lu16, they just made warlocks' root better than wizards' since it always proc fear now.

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Message Edited by QQFatman on 11-10-2005 04:18 PM

[Tanit]

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NG23985_01 wrote:

Tanith_,

Endow Energy does work raid-wide. Wizard's Essential Intromission works on people even OUTSIDE of the raid. It's like how healers could only heal people in their group, a long time ago. Now they can heal people outside of their group. Wizards can "power heal" people outside their group, but Warlocks cannot.

Oh lol, never knew that since i never tried to use it on someone outside the raid. Seems rather useless to me.

Your attitude seems to indicate you think Wizards SHOULD be Single-Target specialists, and Warlocks SHOULD be AE Specialists. I am taking Sony word for word, when they said the two subs would be relatively equal. Two different specialities IS NOT equal. I'm just saying what SOE says how it is. Two different specialities can be roughly equal, just not in every encounter.

Also, Nil Absolution Adept 1, 335 intelligence does 905 to 1680 per monster. Adept 1 Icy Wind with 335 intelligence does 4 ticks of 241-448, or 964-1792 damage per target. This is indeed more than Nil Absolution, and greater efficiency! My mathematics are not wrong. Oops you're right, IW's max dmg is higher. But.. NA does max 105 dps though and IW 89.6. Difference in mana efficiency isnt that big, 5.3dmg/pow for IW and 4.9 for NA And finally a comment about Arctic Icicles - the damage it does might not be much, but its still damage! This further divides Wizards and Warlocks in damage.

Your ae debuff makes your spells do more dmg as well, wizards cant debuff ae.

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Message Edited by Tanith_ on 11-10-2005 11:02 PM

[MilkToa]

I agree with you about the change in class definition from a 'sorcerer that does poison and disease damage' to an 'AOE specialist', it's not what I originally signed up for.  I'd much prefer the way things were prior to LU13 (for warlocks).  That being said, I do not agree with you about warlock DPS, especially compared to wizards. I think that wizard/warlock DPS is fairly well balance with wizards having an advantage in single target DPS and warlocks an advantage in AOE DPS. My opinion is based on my experience frequently grouping and raiding with wizards and parsing the encounters.

Now, if you want to compare us to rangers or conjurers my opinion would be different.

  

[Eloa]

I agree with the original poster in one point. I do not like to get my class changed after 50lvls. I signed up warlock for high single DD nuke and it looked well the first 49 lvls where I hardly used any AE spell. But this is more a basic problem. I do not like to change rules of a game while I am playing the game. Its ok to slithly adjust rules, but should never be a complete turn around.

One of my online friends quit the game because he couldnt handle the new role. He played another class and I miss him. I really hope we do not face such big changes again.

On the other hand I really have fun with my Warlock after LU13. I use a lot more different spells now. Its more chellange now and more tactic and that is more fun for me. And I really enjoy to see a group of mobs on the ground around me. I think its time to make a point behind the LU13 discussion. I hope Sony focus more on game content in future. More heritage quest and live events and stuff like that to get some RP back in the game.

About Wizard and Warlock stuff: It makes no sense for me to compare both classes over and over again. This are 2 different classes with different spells. As long as it is fun to play a Warlock why should I care what Wizard are able to do.

Sometimes it seems all people are only out there to do some mathe and do not really know how to have fun while playing the game. Well not that I cant understand the dps disscussion, I also look on a parser from time to time, but what I see look good for Warlocks.

Eloah

lvl56Warlock

 

[tiki-jiki]

I am tired of these posts. I understand if you argue that you didnt want to be an AoE class, but to say that we dont do enough dps is ludicriss. Our DPS is just fine.

[Siose]

Im tired of these posts too. I cant even see most problems you mentioned.

[maddawg138]

im not even gonna read it...says the same thing in each

 

wah wah wah wah

 

like some cheese with that whine?

 

if you dont like the class reroll to something else its that plain and simple

[Ga]

I must concur these complaining posts are not only annoying, but shameful for our class community. As things stand we're in a very good place, and to attempt to suggest we aren't good and ask for more dev time when classes like Enchanters are desperate for something to be done is insulting.

[Dabbie]

Think this forum is bad? Look at the wizard one. Nerf the warlocks! is the trend.

[Ga]

I'm sorry Dabbie but I don't see any complaining on that forum. The whole Wizard vs Warlock thing seems to have thankfully died and that's one corpse we ain't rezzing.

Message Edited by Gaul on 11-12-2005 04:34 PM

[Dabbie]

Check under root nerfs and look at the spells forum under the wizard post. 6 pages of how wizards are inferior to paladins and warlocks. I wish the whole wizard/warlock thing would just die.

[fyrwl]

I would like to also add that I do not like comparing Warlocks to Wizards.  Let's post on things we would like to see changed in our class based only on our class.  For instance..........I would like to see casting times and some recast times shortened a bit.  It is very frustrating to try to land a spell on something that is already dead in less than 4 seconds.  If I am assisting in a fight of a group of mobs, I have to target an off tank mob in order to land the spell and usually draw aggro from it.  I have a rep for being the best tanking Warlock in our guild.  Let's move things a little faster so I can take my /yawn hot key off my bar.

Also, the future spells that I am going to get don't look all that hot and at this point I am in no hurry to get to 60.....besides....with the cast times how can I be in a hurry to get nowhere.

 

 

Just my 2cp...Cloudsplitter Thundergnome Befallen 56 Warlock

[sAs-Bartleby]

The Reason why i didn´t play my warlock is, that in fact we could not even do our Job as an AoE specialist.

 

Everytime i cast Devastation on a group 4 of 5 mos run to me.

No Tank can hold them.

 

So Devastation is vor me a spell i can cast on groups while soloing 3downs. A laugh.

we can cast a de aggro spell every what.... 15 minutes?..... the next laugh.

 

My roll in group is to cast nihilism and the other buff on the tank and then to hold my feet behind tzhe Healer.

 

 

Now i have fun with my ranger. But only till the next patch like LU13 when rangers are describe in a totaly new way.

[omegablivi]

It's too bad so many of you don't know how to play your class.  Warlocks are really quite good in their current condition. Gilbert 60 Warlock - AB

[Maelwy]

okay....i've been rather supportive of warlocks post CU, and have relished my role as aoe specialist and proc master.  however, the nerf to the recursive procs (while we all knew it was coming) has had some other negative effects. 

our class balance after the latest patch is rather low on the dps side... 

at level 60 - with a berserker, ranger, conj, fury, bruiser and defiler - there isnt time to cast more than one spell -

our cast times NEED to be decreased - single targets, group targets, etc, it doesnt really matter, as we are not able to get off more than a spell or two...  as our dps builds over time (debuff, devastation, nuke.... by the time the nuke would hit, 11-12 seconds into the fight, our targets are dead.) give us us the interrupt when a target dies, rather than when the spell casting is completed would help - this was promised some weeks ago, but never put into play.

 

drop our aoe spell cast times, let us cast our  trademark spells! Decrease our cast time on our debuff so its worth using.  make our nil crystal generating spells have a .5 cast time, so we can effectively farm nil crystals.  Increase the procs that were nerfed when they were recursive (wicked gift, nihilism, etc), give us back our stuns and stifles at increased durations, since our cough effects are gone, and please...above all, make warlock fun again.

 

[VentoCurat]

would ya please stop compairing the two classes as if they were equil. If the intention were to have the warlock = the wizard, warlocks would be evil and wizards would be good and they would be the same. But THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CLASS!!!!

Look to things that would improve gameplay, dps, skills, usefullness, that sort of stuff.

Hilul, 54 WARLOCK on steamfont

[purge3]

I don't think it was SOE's intention to make wizards and warlocks the same class with different spell names and i think that would be lame. I am sorry you didn't want to be an AOE caster but i think that this is a good way to differentiate the two and not a terrible thing for you.

[sAs-Bartleby]

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omegablivion wrote:It's too bad so many of you don't know how to play your class.  Warlocks are really quite good in their current condition. Gilbert 60 Warlock - AB

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ROFL LOL A summary: Lvl 51 Warlock I have 7 single Damage spells (4 DD 3 DoT) incl. Pet (Dot) 4 AoE Spells (2 DoT, 2DD) 2 debuff + 1 interrupt + 1 Damage DD upgrader spell (Aura) 2 spells to bind mobs (1 single + 1 group) 2 Group Buffs and 3 single Person buffs + 2 short duration buffs - You have to cast these spells at the beginning a journey with the group. then you can forget them. So the Master of AoE has got 4 AoE Spells. DD 1600 dmg / mob + DoT 5 x 650 dmg /mob + DD 550 dmg / mob + DoT 5 x 130 dmg/mob The debuff is only used for heroic mobs or higher other  mobs make no sense. Is there something i have forget or overseen? Is there a much greater choice to play a warlock in different ways? I don´t think so. If there is a group i have to use my AoE Spells. I can beginn with the lower ones. But even then when the 3 up mob is nearly dead an his 2 down friends are still alive every mob then the 3 up is coming to me when i cast devastation. And there is nothing I can do against it.... no wait.. I can do something....... just wait a little longer for the second group taunt from the tank .... or perhaps the third....... and then beginn with AoE..... or i can do the single DD and DoT spells....  yeah that is it.... that solves the Problem........ But wait...... why do i have not chosen the wizard? Before LU13 i have got 50 spells in my hotbar i have chosen from. Now i have 25. A little Story. A week ago my gildmates ask me to for help them with my warlock.  (templer, fury, monk, tank, troubadour, warlock) we went to the storm monarch in Everfrost (don´t know the english mobname, i play on a german Server) at the end of the trip the templer only casts his group healings because i was playing as the second tank. The monk was trying to steal the aggro from me. And i only cast one or two spells per fight. The aeo stun spell at the beginning and devastation at the half of the fight. The other time i tried not to fell in sleep because is was just to boring. Then i cast the pet to have a little fun or the group binding spell (forgot the name). That was the last time i loged in to make adventure with my warlock. I do anly use her to search rare goods for my Ranger (now lvl 45)

Message Edited by sAs-Bartleby on 11-14-2005 02:40 AM

Message Edited by sAs-Bartleby on 11-14-2005 02:54 AM

[sAs-Bartleby]

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VentoCuratio wrote:

would ya please stop compairing the two classes as if they were equil. If the intention were to have the warlock = the wizard, warlocks would be evil and wizards would be good and they would be the same. But THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CLASS!!!!

Look to things that would improve gameplay, dps, skills, usefullness, that sort of stuff.

Hilul, 54 WARLOCK on steamfont

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Thats right. I in person do not want to be a wizard who is called a warlock. When comparing lets talk about the unique spells. Spells you can use in situations of trouble not caused by our own behavior. i found two spells from a wizard. Nimbus Aurora (55)  and Depart (3 I did not found something unique in our warlock spell line similar to depart. the counterpart for Nimbus Aurora is Null Caress. I am only 51 and do not know if a group want me to teleport 3 mobs away from a tank and 1 away from a healer. And there will be a chance to transport 3 mobs from the tank to the healers position. perhaps our lvl 60 warlock can tell us something good about this spell.