Am I over agroing?

[Fepp]

Hello all.Last night I was out in RoV with a few other people. Our tank was level 37 guardian, I was a level 30 Warlock. My problem is I was getting agro off the tank halfway through long fights; like the ^^ clay gaurdians. I am unsure if I was over nuking or the tank was under taunting.My spell order was:Curse of Darkness -> Steal Breath -> Dark Distortion -> Noxious Bolt -> Lightning Bolt -> Flashfreeze ->Dark Distortion -> Noxious Bolt -> Lightning Bolt -> FreezeAnd after the last freeze, or another Dark Distortion I would often have agro. I was chain casting as fast as possible. But I would have thought with 7 levels difference I should not be able to pull agro off a tank? (we had a good healer so was all okay).I could see the Guardian taunting at the start but then am not so sure if he was or not.Do you think its my fault or the tanks?

[Dae]

Casting as fast as you possibly can is a sure fire way to get aggro in my experience.I only use BSS and Noxious Bolt now (usually with hp convert spells while they cycle). I use my stuns sporadically.Last night we were trying to kill the final mob for that "Ancient Slayers Ring of..." quest. I was trying to keep Curse of Null, Nullification, Steal Breath and Curse of Darkness on the mob, Boon of the Shadowed on the tank and all the while nuking the mob, casting Invite Void for more power and casting Strength of Void on the lower level healer. I wouldn't recommend trying that... at all.It's like we get given these abilities but then are forced not to use them because in a prolonged engagement they generate way more aggro than the tank can possibly handle.

[maddawg138]

id say you were over nuking

 

try debuffing the mob's first then throwing DoT's on the mob....then wait about 5-10 sec and start nuking and make sure the tank has at minimum app 4 taunts cause app 1's dont cut it...also really helpful to have a chanter in group to keep power up so the tank can just spam taunt

[Splatterpunk28]

/shrug, you have to measure it by the tank. 

 

Flashfreeze and Freeze are huge aggro spells.  Personally I would have ditched lightning bolt and the freeze/flashfreeze and used Ice Spike instead for all of them.

 

But that's just me.

[Fepp]

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Splatterpunk28 wrote:

Personally I would have ditched lightning bolt and the freeze/flashfreeze and used Ice Spike

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Opps I mean Ice Spike >_Message Edited by Fepple on 03-15-2005 11:26 AM

[Fepp]

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maddawg138 wrote:

id say you were over nuking

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Well I would have thought a tank 19% higher than me would be able to hold agro off me. I guess what I really should have asked is "am I over nuking, or is the tank under taunting? Is it unreasonable of me to expect the tank to taunt more if I want to nuke more?"thanks guys

[SirNicholo]

Your doing both, over nuking and you have a tank thats under taunting,  there is no need to chain cast when you are in a group, chain casting is for solo'ing or when you get aggro and the tank cant get it off.  Some tanks need to learn that damage isnt there job, My main tank only hits a damage spell when she is waiting for her taunt timers to refresh.  Having said that I still run a fine line between over nuking and under nuking. 

 

At level 34 I normally start with a DOT, then cast a debuff (this gives some time for the tank to increase hate to him/herself) then I cast My lower nuke, then My big nuke(BSS of course), I wait for timers to refresh(downtime is ok), nukes again, then recast DOT and debuff if needed.  Rinse and repeat.  This method walks a fine line between aggro and not, but thats what keeps it exciting.  There is no need to stun a mob if you dont have aggro on it, and using old nukes that do 100 damage but still generate hate is a waste of time IMHO.  Just remember these 3 words "Downtime is ok".

 

Dont be afraid to tell your tank that you will take care of DPS if he takes care of hate management, everyone has a job to do and if its done well you get the perfect balance, mobs drop fast and your group enters the elusive zone. :smileyvery-happy:

[Eadric]

I can usually chain-cast with a guardian friend of mine who seems to be the lord of taunt. But, then again, he also has Adept III taunts. /shrug

[Crono1321]

The problem with freakin tanks is they think they need to do lots of damage...when they don't. Damage is good to a degree since it increases hate...but when they pull with a bow and use their DD attacks, AND THEN taunt...it kills me...literally.

[DresdenMalicaster]

Just wait till you get Nil Distortion. I still over-aggro and I start with a combination of Curse of Darkness, Steal Breath and Dark Eminations (just to pace myself. Its a generally worthless spell). After that, the first round I go reverse order of nuke quality (Suffocating Breath --> Noxious Bolt --> BSS --> Nil Distortion) and I still pull from the tanks if I don't get resisted too much. You need to work out a balance between doing the best allowable DPS and staying upright. Its a constant battle that changes every encounter, so it keeps us (and the tanks) on our toes.

[Mystophosies]

When working with a tank that knows how to maintain aggro properly you should almost never be in a situation to steal that aggro from him.

 

Now, this means that you know when to cast what spells and what their effects are.

 

Always hold off on the casting of any spells until the mob has been dropped to around 95% - 96% health; this should have allowed the tank to build up enough hate.

 

At this point you can chain nuke like a madman and almost NEVER draw aggro; it's all about letting the tank build up enough hate.

 

Now for the exception:

 

Certain spells are guaranteed to raise your priority on the hate list straight to the top.

 

Fortunately, these are not our nukes.

 

Any stun type  spell such as Freeze, Flash Freeze, Aura of Darkness etc cause major aggro. You might get away with using a stun once, but use it twice and you are almost guaranteed to have a mob staring you down.

 

And now for the most aggro drawing spell that we have: The Vulian Interference / Nullification etc line.

 

Only use this if you have not been building up any kind of hate by nuking etc and the tank has had time to really really get the mob [Removed for Content] at him.

 

This line of spells are VERY handy against epic encounters and raid mobs etc but you will be face down in the dirt if you are not carefull.

 

Get to know your spells and which ones cause what aggro. Chain nuking is very easy to do if managed properly.

 

Melanoma - 1st lvl 50 Warlock on Steamfont

[Admh]

Dot a couple of times.. toss a small nuke.. if mobs hp is around 80%.. root it and start dropping bombs like there's no tomorrow. You won't get aggro... Also make sure u have your lvl 40+ 36sec root... Then it won't be called over aggro.

[Mild und Lei]

agree with the above poster, Bony Grasp is a VERY nice spell and imo completely changed the way i nuke after receiving it.one thing i'd like to mention about stuns, many times when the tank is very low on HP or perhaps your group gets an add it is very smart to cast a stun, especially the ~10 second trait you can get at level 40 (Tara's Necrotic Something). the only other time i cast a stun is if i get aggro and the mob can be killed within my stun. if you pull aggro early, it is easier for a tank to get it back if you refrain from casting for a few rounds, but late in the fight it's best to just hold your ground and stun/nuke away.

[CrimsonAveng]

Yall forgot 1 factor, the healer.

 

Many healers, especially inquisitors/templars cast reactive heals on aggroed members of party. This increases hate of RECIPIENT. So if you see yourself getting +181 a few times, tell the healer to instant you, not reactive you. If not, you wont lose aggro.

 

As far as drawing aggro, b4 lvl 37, the trick is to wait until the tank has generated enough hate. Let him get hit a few times so the healer can put some reactive heals on him. So in the meantime, cast spells that cause little hate such as steal breath and curse of null. Then hit BSS and noxious bolt.

 

After you hit level 37, it gets harder just b/c of the ridiculous damage of nil distortion (appox 800-1500). To avoid the aggro i hit all 3 of my dots, curse of null, and a low nuke b4 i let loose.

 

IME, these spells cause alot of hate quickly (and you wouldnt think they would!): Strenght of void, abhorrent gift, boon of the shadowed and null absolution. SO beware when casting these at the beginning of an encounter.

[ro_n]

 

I have noticed since the last patch it seems a bit easier to pull aggro off the tank. But it does really depend on the tank, and on the group.

 

Some groups I can basically chain-cast everything non-stop and never get aggro, other groups I cast BSS or Null Absolution once and i'm covered in MOB's in the first seconds.

 

I usually start slow and work my way up until I draw it once or twice,  just to find the line. I'll warn the healers and tank in advance though that I'm likely to pull aggro a few times before I find the good balance.

 

btw Null Absolution seems to be the absolute worst hate producing spell we have. I have the adept I and it's doing close to 300 direct damage,  and then another 200 damage over the next 8-9 seconds. If I use this in the first few seconds of a fight it get's ugly quick heh.

[maddawg138]

my rotation at 47 for ^^ mobs is

 

curse of emptiness , chaotic maelstrom, other debuff(cant remember name), incinerate(yes i still use it at adept 1), freezing whorl(yes i still use it at adept 3), sometimes i throw in torment of shadows, tara's necrotic nebula(stun), nil distortion(adpet 3),flashfreeze(cept on lvl 49+mobs), dark pyre, noxious bolt, BSS

 

by then the mob is about 1/4 health and i just start nuking the hell out of the mob by using Nil Distorion, BSS and Noxious bold and by the time i get to BSS the mob is usually dead. and with my normal tank i never get aggro as he knows all hes gotta do is taunt and buff constantly. if we are lucky and have a chanter i usually debuff and DoT then start nuking away. but then again this doesnt always work as it depends on the tank as well. you can tell when a tank is under taunting by just looking at his power. if he still has near full power hes not taunting enough and you will take aggro

[Fepp]

Thanks for all the good comments everyone!One more question...I have read before (i think in a post on here) that hate is averaged out of 30 seconds. Has anyone else heard this before?Thanks

[Kreu]

That seems to be the impression I get at the end of the fight. If i sit there and do nothing to the mob and open up with everything I have when the mob is at 50% I can get aggro from the tank. It doesnt seem to consider the entire fight in its aggro, only the precceding few moments ie. 30 seconds.

[Ingra]

This comment I am about to make may be somewhat controversial.. but I'm going to say it anyway :smileyvery-happy: 

The only tank I have fought with who could hold agro off me while I chain nuke has been a ShadowKnight.  I can pretty much cast whatever I please and very very rarely will I pull agro.  I have pretty much hoarded the SK that I started grouping with as  he can hold agro.  He may pretty much just stand there and melee, only hitting taunts and fighter/mage HO's (which we always try to have him 'end' since it's supposed to give that person more 'hate') and sometimes he'll even do 'harm touch'.

My usual casting is: all debuffs, then dots and then Nukes.. if the battle wont be that long, then I skip some of the DoT's and just Nuke.  I never have to adjust what I do when I'm grouped with MY  SK :smileyvery-happy:

I have tried grouping with many guardians and every single time I pull agro.. even if I completely hold back and just cast sparingly, I pull agro.  From what I have read on the forums and heard from other guardians is that they cannot just taunt and keep agro.. they have to also cast buffs on themselves to keep agro.  Guardians can take a big beatting, but they just can't hold the agro for me.

I am sure there are some awesome guardians out there... but I'll stick with SK's :smileyvery-happy:

[maddawg138]

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Ingrata wrote:

This comment I am about to make may be somewhat controversial.. but I'm going to say it anyway :smileyvery-happy: 

The only tank I have fought with who could hold agro off me while I chain nuke has been a ShadowKnight.  I can pretty much cast whatever I please and very very rarely will I pull agro.  I have pretty much hoarded the SK that I started grouping with as  he can hold agro.  He may pretty much just stand there and melee, only hitting taunts and fighter/mage HO's (which we always try to have him 'end' since it's supposed to give that person more 'hate') and sometimes he'll even do 'harm touch'.

My usual casting is: all debuffs, then dots and then Nukes.. if the battle wont be that long, then I skip some of the DoT's and just Nuke.  I never have to adjust what I do when I'm grouped with MY  SK :smileyvery-happy:

I have tried grouping with many guardians and every single time I pull agro.. even if I completely hold back and just cast sparingly, I pull agro.  From what I have read on the forums and heard from other guardians is that they cannot just taunt and keep agro.. they have to also cast buffs on themselves to keep agro.  Guardians can take a big beatting, but they just can't hold the agro for me.

I am sure there are some awesome guardians out there... but I'll stick with SK's :smileyvery-happy:

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I agree with you to a point...SK's seem to hold aggro really well if the person knows what they are doing...but ive also been with horrible SK's and take aggro. but if you group with someone all the time...you get a feel for how the person plays and can be more effective in groups that way.

[Fepp]

The general consensus is defiantly that I was over nuking, however I don’t agree.I have done some experimenting since and I don’t think I was really... with a tank 7 levels higher than me that is doing his job taunting I have no problems. It’s when they start fights off by taunting a few times then focus on damage that I pickup agro.However, yes if I was out with a tank of my level then I would be over doing it.Thanks guys

[Belash]

I don't think you are over-nuking. A lot depends on the tanks tanking ability.My personal experience is that two tanks of the same sub-class and same level can hold aggro differently. I am not sure if it is equipment, spell upgrades, skill at pressing taunt, MoBs we are fighting or what. Some tanks I wait 5 seconds before I cast my first spell (DoT) and yet still get aggro before I get through my DoTs. Other tanks I can chain cast from the beginning and yet rarely draw aggro (and usually only if the tank resists or he switches targets to taunt, but my nuke hits first).I would bet that your 37 guardian either did not get his taunt upgrades or was not pressing them enough.

[Aral]

You are not the problem, the tank is.  However since that situation will come up nearly as often as the alternative (a tank that understands how to hold aggro), get used to "finding the line" and riding it.  Different tank, different nuke speeds.  In general never use your stuns except in emergencies IF you have a poor taunting tank or just don't know yet what your tank can do.  The stuns add a great deal of hate. 

 

 

How to solve the problem and improve your tank?  Send them a very friendly, non-threatening tell during a downtime.  Here's what I do:

 

"/tell newb tank01 Hey there, can I give you a couple tips for helping keep the mobs off me? Something I learned from a (say guildie or high level guardian/sk whatever, so it's not YOU imparting the tank wisdom to a tank) awhile back when I was having problems getting nuke aggro." 

 

If they reply defensively, cut it off there and look for a good opportunity to leave the group peacefully. 

 

If - as in most cases- they are really interested in learning something new and keeping agg - continue:

 

"One thing that really helps is if you re-cast your group buff right after you pull.  Group buffs have large hate value, but you have to cast it after combat begins to get the benefit of the aggro. This works on all encounters hating the group, not just the target encounter.  Then just keep taunting as normal with your most powerful single target and whatever group taunts you have just to maintain during the fight.  That will do it." 

 

The number one difference between a new tank who can't keep agg and a veteran with whom you can _ALMOST_ chain-nuke (stuns excluded) is that they recast their group buffs early in the fight.  It makes a night and day difference for all nukers involved.  I personally learned this on accident playing my bruiser at a lower level... when in dps role I'd refresh my group buff if it dropped during battle, and the mobs would all turn to me... even the mezzed ones would target me!  So I thought to meself  "hrmmmm."

 

Anyhow try that out with any tank having trouble keeping you from nuking.  You should never have to really hold back, but leave a couple pauses in the fight to cast debuffs, that's enough to allow a good tank to keep the agg.  And avoid casting the stuns one after another.

[Bereaveme]

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Fepple wrote:Hello all.Last night I was out in RoV with a few other people. Our tank was level 37 guardian, I was a level 30 Warlock. My problem is I was getting agro off the tank halfway through long fights; like the ^^ clay gaurdians. I am unsure if I was over nuking or the tank was under taunting.My spell order was:Curse of Darkness -> Steal Breath -> Dark Distortion -> Noxious Bolt -> Lightning Bolt -> Flashfreeze ->Dark Distortion -> Noxious Bolt -> Lightning Bolt -> FreezeAnd after the last freeze, or another Dark Distortion I would often have agro. I was chain casting as fast as possible. But I would have thought with 7 levels difference I should not be able to pull agro off a tank? (we had a good healer so was all okay).I could see the Guardian taunting at the start but then am not so sure if he was or not.Do you think its my fault or the tanks?

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IMO, ur chain nuke will easily get aggros, after that BIG patch we got 300% dmg buffed and we have to not chain the nukes.currently I tried to utilize my dmg but stay away from I aggro in this way1. make sure the tank pull and taunt aready2. Curse of Emptiness + Curse of Nil3. Chaotic Maelstrom4. BSS -> HVB until mobs health goes under 70%5. Vulian Interference (if chain this debuff with other debuff will easy got over taunt)6. keeps BSS-> HVB until mobs health goes under 40%7. Chain with Nil distortion -> BSS -> HVBI use this way to fight, that maximize my dps and stay safe

[maddawg138]

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Fepple wrote:
The general consensus is defiantly that I was over nuking, however I don’t agree.

I have done some experimenting since and I don’t think I was really... with a tank 7 levels higher than me that is doing his job taunting I have no problems. It’s when they start fights off by taunting a few times then focus on damage that I pickup agro.

However, yes if I was out with a tank of my level then I would be over doing it.


Thanks guys

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what most tanks dont realize is that they are meat shields and that you should let them know to focus on worrying about holding aggro and not worry about damage out put that you will take care of that as long as they take care of keeping aggro.

[Maelwy]

Funny on the comments about the sk, I find it's harder with them than any other tank to avoid pulling aggro.

 

With a really good tank, I can chain cast to my hearts delight.

 

With a poor tank, I find myself sitting out the first 1/3 of the fight, casting one round of spells, and still pulling aggro.

 

The trick is to find a good shaman class healer, and have them stick to you like glue.

 

Let the druid/priest worry about the tank.  This healer all about keeping you alive.  With a good ward, you can generally finish off the mob before it can kill you.

 

They are supposed to fix the reactive/regenerative heals aggro assignment, but it hasnt happened yet.

 

Once it does happen, tanks arent gonna be able to generate enough hate to keep anything for long.  Might as well prepare for it.

 

[Fepp]

Last night I played with this some more. On the same mobs with a lower tank.Tank this time was a level 32 gaurdian, so only 1 level difference between us.I took the tips from here and stopped using my stuns, I've also had to swap out Ice Spike for Hemina's Poisonus Bolt (cause it was really sucking).With this guardian I picked up agro a few times, but now I had my stuns avalible so I could give the healer a chance to catch up on my health while tank pulled agro back. At first I was a bit worried about stunning when I already had agro as it generate more hate for me, making tank take longer to get it off me, however this seemed to work okay.Not using stuns as well gave more chance to use Invite the Void, etc.It did help this tank was really good... he actually said "I'm having to taunt so much my DPS is into single figures" I doubt it was... but great, he didnt care - going to be pestering my tank a lot more

Message Edited by Fepple on 03-18-2005 09:05 AM

[Nitethief]

Hey guys, I am gonna give you a tanks perspective on this also.  I am a 37 monk and my wife plays a 32 warlock.  Just wanted to say that we almost exclusively duo or trio with a friend.  Anyway when we duo, she very seldom ever takes agro from me.

And yes she debuffs and casts her lvl 30 training thing Bellenger... Some or another.  I agree with what everyone says here for the most part.  If you have a tank worth anything and you are controlling your nukes, dots and debuffs you should never get agro.  However if you sit there and go through your whole bar chaining everything (especially putting stuns in there) then its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hard to NOT get agro.

 

I will say when she got to lvl 30 and got her training spell, she drew agro the first few fights that we did.  It made us both revamp our style, we got complacent with each other.  Well all of a sudden she got a dd that hit a lot harder and she almost died a few times =)

 

Ok now from my view as a tank type.  When I pull, generally with throwing item, on the way back to our camp I hit taunt.  As soon as I stop at camp i do the following.  1. AE taunt even if its a single mob (ae taunts are encounter only), 2. I hit my stun ability, 3. Taunt, 4. A few damage abilities.  Then its pretty much single taunts from there, unless I feel she may be generating to much agro, then i throw an AE taunt.

 

Now another thing and I am done.  For the people that say that tanks should realize that they are not there to do damage but to take it.  I agree wholeheartedly, I have drawn so much agro off of "Real Tanks" so many times its ridiculous.  I hate when tanks try to dps but don't taunt.  NOW on the other hand, I have had people get agro and I, taunt and ae taunt with no result THAT is when I TRY to dps, I will hit everything in my aresenal and most times I can then get agro back.  Most tanks don't save their damage attacks and then when they NEED them they don't have them.

 

Just my 2cp's worth...and yes I know grammar was never my strong suit.

 

BTW I have a level 19 (already did subclass) warlock now)  I really liked watching my wife's and the DPS/Spells they get, so far its a lot of fun =)

 

[tennj]

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Ingrata wrote:

This comment I am about to make may be somewhat controversial.. but I'm going to say it anyway :smileyvery-happy: 

The only tank I have fought with who could hold agro off me while I chain nuke has been a ShadowKnight.  I can pretty much cast whatever I please and very very rarely will I pull agro.  I have pretty much hoarded the SK that I started grouping with as  he can hold agro.  He may pretty much just stand there and melee, only hitting taunts and fighter/mage HO's (which we always try to have him 'end' since it's supposed to give that person more 'hate') and sometimes he'll even do 'harm touch'.

My usual casting is: all debuffs, then dots and then Nukes.. if the battle wont be that long, then I skip some of the DoT's and just Nuke.  I never have to adjust what I do when I'm grouped with MY  SK :smileyvery-happy:

I have tried grouping with many guardians and every single time I pull agro.. even if I completely hold back and just cast sparingly, I pull agro.  From what I have read on the forums and heard from other guardians is that they cannot just taunt and keep agro.. they have to also cast buffs on themselves to keep agro.  Guardians can take a big beatting, but they just can't hold the agro for me.

I am sure there are some awesome guardians out there... but I'll stick with SK's :smileyvery-happy:

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[Removed for Content], I have a pocket SK as well :smileytongue:  Zerkers are good as well especailly for AE groups. 

[Alfred75]

How well a tank holds aggro depends entirely on the tank's equipment, skills (i.e. Masters vs Adepts vs Appren) and personal skills. So, yes, you are over-aggroing if you grouped with a tank that cannot hold aggro; and no, you are not over-aggroing if your tank can hold aggro. I tend to exclusively group with certain tanks who can hold aggro, while I chain nuke BSS and Nil Distortion and the Noxious Bolt training spell. I always leave groups with tanks that cannot hold aggro, even when I am exclusively casting only BSS and no other spells. The main problem is this - tanks tend to focus primarily on their equipment (at least thats what I gathered from the tanks I know) before they even begin to look at their skills. An Apprentice Taunt can never outaggro an Adept nuke. Some food for thought....