Wizzie agro discussion

[iceriven2]

Hello, with live update 25 we recently saw the rebalancing of some of the classes. As most know srocerers are meant to be the top end dps. I know the class can achieve that goal, but can the "Normal" wizard ever see thereselves be the top dps. Basically what i am trying to say is that with the way sorcerers manage there agro I honestly don't see a "Normal" Sorcerer being able to see the ubah dps that they can be. I want to start a discussion on of course if you believe as i do and if so what you think should be done. With the recent change to cease the Dev's still aware of our agro problem but cease is far then enough to deal with the amount of hate we generate. Basically i want a spell that allows a sorcerers to be able to reach at the very least with out the help of outside classes what t2 dps can reach with out the help classes to manage agro as well. I been raiding and grping with a big mix of ppl. I recently joined a new guild and i am seeing how much my dps varies on the classes i have in grp. I was aware of it before but i was and still am luckie enough to have a pally friend i grp with a lot so i never realized how bad it can get. With out the help of some other class to manage my agro i can get to just ahead of t3 dps without drawing somekind of agro. So heres the idea i thought i would bring up. Change concussive to be a spell that instead of decreasing hate by XXX amount make a spell that when casted the next spell that is casted all the hate that would be created by that one spell is not added to your hate gain..basically the spell just doesn't add a thing to your hate. I know it could be tweaked. Like instead of all make it a percentage or even give that hate that would have been generated on that one spell it goes to the tank. I think this would help b/c its not doing anything to our over all hate gain just the hate from the one spell. Think something like that would allow a sorcerer to be able to reach a higher dps on there own without becoming to ubah with just it alone. Your thought??To powerful?Anyother ideas?Am i nuts and should forget the idea all together?

[-Immolatu]

Spells take too long to cast already. By the time we cast a spell, a scout has hit the mob several times, and stopping to cast concussive is too much downtime from casting. So what we should get is an aggro transfer. Give us a 20% aggro transfer or something so that we can just keep casting without having to break and give the other classes more of a jump on us. Concussive is a useless spell, by time I hit catalyst -> freehand sorcery -> concussive -> ice nova the mob is dead from other dps =/

[ShreddedWhe]

If you're in a raid groups should be organized accordingly.

If you're in a grp, who cares what dps you get when the encounters are like 30 seconds long?  Even HoF named don't last more than 40 seconds with a good group, so I view group DPS as irrelevant.  On that note, you don't have to pull aggro in either situation to get "T1 DPS".  Trick is about casting order, letting the tank build hate, not casting a series of nukes at the same time but alternating refreshing your dots with nukes.  If you want 1600 dps in a group, you'll pull aggro, but the mob will be dead so quickly it doesn't matter.

[etaipo]

I dont think they really need to change the  threat reduction stuff.  It is a balance issue, really.  Eventhough parses aren't the end all be all, I'll use some numbers from out guild's raid last nite. I'm a level 70 wizard, with decent legendary and a few fabled pieces; 43 Achievement points, using catalyst, freehand, and brainstorm.  I'm parsing around 800-1000 dps per fight, and not pulling aggro. I had a troubador in my group, but did not have amends on me. Thats around 80k-100k damage on the trash mobs, if I recall correctly. With concussive and cease at master one, and if both of those spells hit at their top end, we can only get rid of about 3500 "threat."  To qualify that, a dev has posted that 1 damage = 1 threat.  So, what should this tell us?  You need to be careful.  In a raid situation, you are depending on all the other classes to achieve your goal.  Wether its the bards or the beloved Amends, they are there to protect you, just as you are there to do damage.  In a word: Balance.  Having a spell that negated threat for one cast would give us quite and advantage.  Imagine this scene: The tank pulls an encounter, everyone puts their debuffs on the mobs, then I run up, use my 'threat spell', catalyst, freehand, fusion.  Bam, I just did around 20k-25k damage to 3 targets, and didnt get any hate for it.  That doesnt seem fair, does it?   "I can get to just ahead of t3 dps without drawing somekind of agro."  I find that really hard to believe with amends on you.  In raids where I have had amends, I have done upwards of 1300dps and the mobs didnt so much as turn in my direction.  My advice would be to read your spell descriptions again and study them.  You have all the tools to 'ubah' or whatever, you just need to refine your technique. Then you will see that 1. yes concussive is worthless, and 2. you dont need it. Happy Casting!

[iceriven2]

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ShreddedWheat wrote:

If you're in a raid groups should be organized accordingly.

If you're in a grp, who cares what dps you get when the encounters are like 30 seconds long?  Even HoF named don't last more than 40 seconds with a good group, so I view group DPS as irrelevant.  On that note, you don't have to pull aggro in either situation to get "T1 DPS".  Trick is about casting order, letting the tank build hate, not casting a series of nukes at the same time but alternating refreshing your dots with nukes.  If you want 1600 dps in a group, you'll pull aggro, but the mob will be dead so quickly it doesn't matter.

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NOT asking for 1600 dps in a grp...I specifically said i wasn't. In grp or even in raids without a bard or chanter or pally, Just a guardian if i go over 500 dps i get agro. Doesn't matter what spells i use the minute i get 500 i am dead. All i am asking is to be able to reach a little more on my own not 1600. And i do realize if u wait to let him build it up i can get away with a little more but frankly tired of especially in raids where those classes aren't avialable and i cast nothin but my dot's and a sunstrike here and there i still get agro. And yes the guardian had all adept 3 and some master plus a scout to dump agro on him. I would just like a better way to manage my own agro.

[iceriven2]

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etaipo wrote:I dont think they really need to change the  threat reduction stuff. It is a balance issue, really.  Eventhough parses aren't the end all beall, I'll use some numbers from out guild's raid last nite. I'm a level70 wizard, with decent legendary and a few fabled pieces; 43Achievement points, using catalyst, freehand, and brainstorm.  I'mparsing around 800-1000 dps per fight, and not pulling aggro. I had atroubador in my group, but did not have amends on me. Thats around80k-100k damage on the trash mobs, if I recall correctly. Withconcussive and cease at master one, and if both of those spells hit attheir top end, we can only get rid of about 3500 "threat."  To qualifythat, a dev has posted that 1 damage = 1 threat.  So, what should thistell us?  You need to be careful.  In a raid situation, you aredepending on all the other classes to achieve your goal.  Wether itsthe bards or the beloved Amends, they are there to protect you, just asyou are there to do damage.  In a word: Balance.  Having a spell thatnegated threat for one cast would give us quite and advantage.  Imaginethis scene: The tank pulls an encounter, everyone puts their debuffs onthe mobs, then I run up, use my 'threat spell', catalyst, freehand,fusion.  Bam, I just did around 20k-25k damage to 3 targets, and didntget any hate for it.  That doesnt seem fair, does it?   "I can get to just ahead of t3 dpswithout drawing somekind of agro."  I find that really hard tobelieve with amends on you.  In raids where I have had amends, Ihave done upwards of 1300dps and the mobs didnt so much as turn in mydirection.  My advice would be to read your spell descriptionsagain and study them.  You have all the tools to 'ubah' orwhatever, you just need to refine your technique. Then you will seethat 1. yes concussive is worthless, and 2. you dont need it.Happy Casting!

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Sigh ty for trying to help but i feel nonone is getting my point...I understand we need those classes to reach that ubah dps we have ...Iknow that...but i will say again NOT EVERY SORCERER HAS ACCESS TO AGRO REDUCING CLASSES. I am extremely luckie to have a pally that i can play with on a common basis but the weeks he has to travel or not be in game i don't have a single agro reducing class to grp with . I simply would like a way to manage that agro a little better...the idea i gave is just that an idea to the problem. MY main concern is the problem not the solution. I guess what i am trying to ask is does anyone else who is not in a hard core raiding guild and is a casual player like 80% of the players in game and isn't luckie enough to have a agro reducing class finding it hard to to manage your agro to where u can actually do some reasonable dps without dying...that a better explanation for what i am asking??Also plz if your gonna quote me quote it right....."I can get to just ahead of t3 dpswithout drawing somekind of agro."You forgot what i wrote before it....Which was "With out the help of some other class to manage my agro i can get to just ahead of t3 dps without drawing somekind of agro." So thats without the pally if what i said before was confusing to u.

[BlackAdderDr]

I hate to say but you have to play to your group.  If you dont have amends or other agro tools and a so-so tank then you have to hold back, unless you can deal with the agro.  Use your big nukes to finish a mob, let the scouts get it to yellow and then unleash.  Its easy to do, you just need to time your spells.  There are lots of ways of playing smart and sometimes your going to get agro from lucky hits, or low nukes not finishing off the mob. Just know how to deal with it.  I tend to save cease for after the nuke,  I prefer to mitigate the auto-atk from a mob instead of its CA abilities.  Numbing cold will let you "kite" to an extent, your group root is fast casting with a great snare effect.  You have tools, you can manage agro if you want. You can buy time for finishing off a mob.-Acelia 70 Wizard of Nektulos

[etaipo]

You completely missed th point of my post.  Also, I'll take that caps as you shouting at me like 5 year old, rather than some one trying to offer you help.  If thats the way you want it, ok.  I gave you examples from our raid last night, yes.  But, the tactics I employed there are universal, whether its group or raid.   I had this long-winded reply all typed up then the forums crapped out or something, so I'll just sum it up here: Learn to play your class. Plain and simple.  Not every situation is going to be the same. Sometimes you'll have a bard, a chanter, and a pally. Sometimes you will have none.  A good wizard is someone that can do good damage in any of those situations, with the spells we currently have.  So, I'll suggest *again* that you re-read your spell descriptions and refine your technique. Or keep dying, it really doesnt matter to me.

[IllusiveThoughts]

This can get a long winded reply but the op touches on a point that is getting worse for wizards not better with lu 24.

Wizards rejoiced at the change to ceace giving us another de-agro tool. 

What most people realize is we gave up the hate generation of frostsheild on the tank with lu24.

so lets do the math...........

pre lu24 ice sheild had the potential to generate (with a crappy tanks int) 2400-3K of hate. for 3 procs every 18 seconds on the raid MT.

ceace at m1 averages out to about 650-700 threat reduction every 25 seconds.

It doesn't take rocket science to see that SOE took away a spell which we could use to generate hate on onther player (raid mt for instance) and in return we got about 1/4 of that back with a threat reduction.

Now we top the whole shebang off with the Forge of Ro nerf (another along this spells history) where it will no longer generate its own hate list, and you can see that wizards took a huge nerf to agro generation and maintenence with lu24.

Ceace is not enough for an unsupported wizard, concussive is not enough for an unsupported wizard.

the assasin hate transfer and the ranger hate reduction abilites blow concussive + ceace out of the water.  Its time soe let go of the old idea of wizardry having to hold back on dps or die (because at the top of the tier with correct hate reduction other T1 classes are still equal to us) give us effective tools to manage agro without a support class.

Wizards who feel otherwise i think fall into two catagories.

1. spoiled (always group with troub, guardian (aussage 33% adp3), amends (39% adp3), coercer (24% m1), illusionist (750ish de-agro proc), skywatchers robe (650ish de-agro proc)

2. low dps - you dont even do enough dps because your fearful of pulling agro and thus never do, so you dont think there are agro problems.  OR you dont play your wizard enough to upgrade your spells to adp3 and always ensure your at the int cap.

I've been on both sides of the coin and I can tell you its night and day.

A proper raid set up you can pretty much Ice nova on the pull and fusion a couple of seconds later and not pull agro.

A poorly set up raid you'll pull agro from irradiate, firey convultions, surging tempest, protoferno (when it dies) and rending icicles. 

I like the idea of one agro free nuke.  I think it would be a great change to concussive, especially since it takes 2 seconds to cast.

 

[etaipo]

I forgot to mention this before, I use the gargoyle familiar. He's good for 2.5% aggro reduction, which is not much, but with the other classes it adds up.  I know we are talking about solo/grouping mostly , but it seems relevant.  And I think that is a fair trade off, as far as having the other classes with hate reducers.  That is, if you want to do decent damage, you're ok by yourself. If you want to do the huge damage, you need the hate reducers of other classes.  IllusiveThoughts would call me a spoiled wizard, and rightly so. I wasn't always spoiled, though.  But even with the optimal raid groups, I can still get myself aced if I get too wreckless. Opening with Ice Nova is a bad idea. :robotvery-happy:

[IllusiveThoughts]

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etaipo wrote:
I forgot to mention this before, I use the gargoyle familiar. He's good for 2.5% aggro reduction, which is not much, but with the other classes it adds up.  I know we are talking about solo/grouping mostly , but it seems relevant.  And I think that is a fair trade off, as far as having the other classes with hate reducers.  That is, if you want to do decent damage, you're ok by yourself. If you want to do the huge damage, you need the hate reducers of other classes. 

IllusiveThoughts would call me a spoiled wizard, and rightly so. I wasn't always spoiled, though.  But even with the optimal raid groups, I can still get myself aced if I get too wreckless. Opening with Ice Nova is a bad idea. :robotvery-happy:

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amends 39% + flappy 2.5% + coercer m1 24% + illusionist (group aa)7.3% = 72.8% hate reduction

MT aa 11% + coercer 49% = 60% hate gain.

total gap between my agro and his 132% less likely to pull agro.  I can fusion on 3 mobs once they're all in position and not pull agro.  (oh and the mt usually does about 700 dps on aoe encounters to boot)

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 06-27-2006 09:11 AM

[iceriven2]

OK for starters me writing in caps wasn't yelling .....it was making something that appeared that u missed more visable b/c you talked about a point i wasnt trying to make srry if it came across like that simple as that....Also know i have to cater my dps to my grp alrdyAlso know how to play my classAlso know which classes i need to help with my agroAlso know Know which spells and equipment is out there to help reduce my agroAlso know ending a fight with the big spells helps agro and dpsSorry if i sound harsh i don't mean to be. I am just a little fustrated that i am getting responces based on what i just said above which it not the point i am trying to make. All i asked for is a discussion based on whether or not other believe sorcerer agro manage needs to be looked at...thats all some have been good but those directed towards me, plz stop there is no point b/c like i said above i know.... So plz lets discuss sorcerer agro manage in general ty

[iceriven2]

to try and get more on topic lets see what we have to help us with agroFlappy, Cease and concussive anyone know the over all percentage to our avarage raid and grp damage all those spells take away from our hate. Scout tend to get a spell that take like 40% or something of there hate away or can be placed on the tank...whats sorcerers percentage with all the spells combine. Curious to see. Think it might be the best way to see what your normal every day average sorcerers has at there disposal.

[etaipo]

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iceriven2 wrote:OK for starters me writing in caps wasn't yelling .....it was making something that appeared that u missed more visable b/c you talked about a point i wasnt trying to make srry if it came across like that simple as that....Also know i have to cater my dps to my grp alrdyAlso know how to play my classAlso know which classes i need to help with my agroAlso know Know which spells and equipment is out there to help reduce my agroAlso know ending a fight with the big spells helps agro and dpsSorry if i sound harsh i don't mean to be. I am just a little fustrated that i am getting responces based on what i just said above which it not the point i am trying to make. All i asked for is a discussion based on whether or not other believe sorcerer agro manage needs to be looked at...thats all some have been good but those directed towards me, plz stop there is no point b/c like i said above i know.... So plz lets discuss sorcerer agro manage in general ty

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Do I think wizard aggro management needs attention?No.I gave my opinion in the posts above, and then I gave reasons supporting my opinion.  That's discussion. Except you seem to discount what I'm saying because I don't agree with you.  So, I guess that leaves me out of the discussion, no?  I think you are frustrated because you had some preconceived notion that everyone would agree with you.  At any rate, there is my opinion on the matter.

[iceriven2]

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etaipo wrote:

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iceriven2 wrote:OK for starters mewriting in caps wasn't yelling .....it was making something thatappeared that u missed more visable b/c you talked about a point iwasnt trying to make srry if it came across like that simple as that....Also know i have to cater my dps to my grp alrdyAlso know how to play my classAlso know which classes i need to help with my agroAlso know Know which spells and equipment is out there to help reduce my agroAlso know ending a fight with the big spells helps agro and dpsSorryif i sound harsh i don't mean to be. I am just a little fustrated thati am getting responces based on what i just said above which it not thepoint i am trying to make. All i asked for is a discussion based on whether or not other believe sorcerer agro manage needs to be looked at...thatsall some have been good but those directed towards me, plz stop thereis no point b/c like i said above i know.... So plz lets discusssorcerer agro manage in general ty

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Do I think wizard aggro management needs attention?No.Igave my opinion in the posts above, and then I gave reasons supportingmy opinion.  That's discussion. Except you seem to discount whatI'm saying because I don't agree with you.  So, I guess thatleaves me out of the discussion, no?  I think you are frustratedbecause you had some preconceived notion that everyone would agree withyou.  At any rate, there is my opinion on the matter.

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Ok i guess i am guilty as the next guy taking something to litterally. Why i tend to shy away from forums, you can't hear the tone of voice or the body language when things are typed out here and things can be taken the wrong way. I don't want to exclude you from the discussion. But to continue with it Am i correct in saying you feel that our dependency is needed and should be expected??? If so then why should the other t1 dps not be so dependent on other classes for agro management??

[IllusiveThoughts]

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iceriven2 wrote:
to try and get more on topic lets see what we have to help us with agro

Flappy, Cease and concussive anyone know the over all percentage to our avarage raid and grp damage all those spells take away from our hate. Scout tend to get a spell that take like 40% or something of there hate away or can be placed on the tank...whats sorcerers percentage with all the spells combine. Curious to see. Think it might be the best way to see what your normal every day average sorcerers has at there disposal.

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2.5% flappy, ceace 500-900 = 700 threat average, concussive 1400-2400 average 1900

total dehate from castable's 2600 points of hate every 30s plus 2.5% reduction of dmg from flappy.

with no support lets argue a wizard can do at best 1k dps with a coercer in the mt group and either dirge or assasin or swash for hate transfer, and its a darn good MT.  (assuming best case senario)

after 1 min of fighting the wizard would of accrued 60,000 points of dmg without using ceace or concussive.

with using both the wizard would of dealt 53,000 points of dmg (ceace x2 2s casting , and concussive x2 5s casting total = 7s casting de-agros)

2600 x 2 = 4200 total de-agro add in 2.5% de-agro aa pet = 1220 additional de-agro,  4200 + 1220 = 5420 -53,000 = 47,580 points of hate

12,420 points less hate (7k from lost time due to casting de-agros @1kdps, 4200 from the actual de-agros)

and we get 20.7% threat reduction over 1 min. 

assasins get a 31% hate transfer at m1 (correct me if im wrong) rangers get up to 40% hate reduction at m1, in addition to two castable de-agro abilities for additional amounts of de-agro, both of which are close to equal to concussive (in de-agro amounts) with a .5s cast and are instant de-agro no additional spell requirement.

as you can see the Wizard falls behind greatly when agro management is looked at and the #'s are drawn.

If we change concussive to negage one spells dmg (meaning the next spell will accrue 0 hate) like say an Ice nova that hits for 10k (averaged for adp3 without freehand raid senario)and another 13k fusion 30s later we can shave off 23K hate

 if we took the same senario as above and spent 5s casting concussive (2.0s +.5 refresh x2) and did 1K dps we would start with 55,000 points of hate, and reduce that to 32,000 points of hate with concussive x 2

total de-hate with change to concussive 28,000 or a 46% de-agro.

Now if fusion isn't up and we use our next biggest nuke ball of lava we can change the #'s again to reflect 8K more hate (ball of lava 5k hit vs 13k fusion)making total hate gain 40,000 points of hate or a 33% de-agro.

I dont see this as being overpowered as concussive works on only a single target and we'd still pull agro and die on a multi hit fusion, and we'd be on par with rangers and assasins as far as hate management goes.

 

[curtlewis]

This is an excellent suggestion.Concussive should affect all targets the subsequent spell HITs, however.Even with that change, it's a one shot deal with a long recast. This single change would make a big difference in my ability to do top level DPS.Summoners still have no problem out DPSing me, despite the inherent offensive and defensive advantages the class has. For some reason, the producer feels they should also out damage less advantaged classes as well.Part of the reason they can is their aggro is split between them and their pet. That alone is a HUGE benefit to NOT drawing aggro. Far more than a one shot no hate on next spell.Despite what the poorly informed producer thinks, it's clear from the design that Sorcerors should be the top DPS generally (ie more often than not and when not, not WAY behind). Warlocks can do this, but Wizards have a harder time. Improving aggro control with this proposed Concussive change would do wonders for class morale and allowing the class to truly perform it's role, that of the artillery on the raid.

[ailees]

I parsed lab's raid a lot those last monthes, withg the aim of doing max damages.those last times, I noticed a big change in agro.I allways cast DS on the tank, then Glacial wind. As this one is a M2, makes a lot of damages.But on the last raids, with the same main tank and more or less same players of course, I'm dying a lot  ! even at he very begening : MT pulls a group, I cast both spells, and from time to time, one mobs or two come to me. Tank told me he did not change his way of taunting, this means I'm getting much more aggro. DS does not give agro to tank (dunno where the agro goes ...) and then GW is enough to get me some from the whole group if taunt is resisted (mobs are heroic, they resist rather well to taunt).As yesterday I had no real protector, I stayed 2d damager, but payed it with a full set of armor to 0.

[IllusiveThoughts]

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ailees wrote:
I parsed lab's raid a lot those last monthes, withg the aim of doing max damages.
those last times, I noticed a big change in agro.
I allways cast DS on the tank, then Glacial wind. As this one is a M2, makes a lot of damages.
But on the last raids, with the same main tank and more or less same players of course, I'm dying a lot  ! even at he very begening : MT pulls a group, I cast both spells, and from time to time, one mobs or two come to me.
Tank told me he did not change his way of taunting, this means I'm getting much more aggro. DS does not give agro to tank (dunno where the agro goes ...) and then GW is enough to get me some from the whole group if taunt is resisted (mobs are heroic, they resist rather well to taunt).

As yesterday I had no real protector, I stayed 2d damager, but payed it with a full set of armor to 0.

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my first labs raid after lu24 I died a lot also, but once I realized it was Forge of Ro that was getting me killed I was able to change my play style (a little bit less dps now without forge early in the fight) but less death.

I used to put him down as the tank pulled and got his first taunt off since its also a 1K heat debuff, start with some low dots then go full burn.

The problem is now the hate from forge goes directly to the wizard (bugged if you ask me as no dmg based dumbfire pet works this way and I think it was an indirect change to some of the stationary healerpets that got FOR nerfed)

I drew agro with just forge when I put him down at the beginning of the fight.  After the raid was over and I was trying to figure out how i'd get agro with over 70% hate reduction on me, I came to the boards and realized this change is what was getting me killed.

now I usually wont toss out forge of ro unless its mid fight and I'm going in for a fusion anyways.

[etaipo]

Reading through here, and wondering how hate actually works,  I realised I have no idea.  Some dev posted that 1 dmg = 1 threat, so you would think that if my ice nova lands for 10k, I now have 10k threat towards the mob I hit, minus any hate reducers for this example.  But what happens when a tank taunts after that?  If the hit was hard enough for me to 'get aggro', when the taunt lands and the mob turns back to the tank, what has happened?  Did the taunt reduce my aggro number below 10k, or did the tank's aggro number increase over 10k, so that its now higher than mine?   What got me thinking about this, was last night when I was playing, I decided to do some goofing off, but we'll call it 'testing'.  I ran up to a mob in TT, a greyed out bitterbloom thingy, and I cast cease on it.  The spell does not damage; it interrupts and reduces threat, but the mob still attacked me.  If I didnt do any damge, how much threat did I get?  Is there a base amount of threat everyone in an encounter receives, right off the bat?  Also note that I was grouped at the time, they never attacked, or healed me. The mob never turned to any of the group mates, it only focused on me.  Does that mean the interrupt generates more hate than that particular spell reduces?  I dont think that is the case, but it would be interesting to know what happened.

[IllusiveThoughts]

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etaipo wrote:
Reading through here, and wondering how hate actually works,  I realised I have no idea.  Some dev posted that 1 dmg = 1 threat, so you would think that if my ice nova lands for 10k, I now have 10k threat towards the mob I hit, minus any hate reducers for this example.  But what happens when a tank taunts after that?  If the hit was hard enough for me to 'get aggro', when the taunt lands and the mob turns back to the tank, what has happened?  Did the taunt reduce my aggro number below 10k, or did the tank's aggro number increase over 10k, so that its now higher than mine?  

What got me thinking about this, was last night when I was playing, I decided to do some goofing off, but we'll call it 'testing'.  I ran up to a mob in TT, a greyed out bitterbloom thingy, and I cast cease on it.  The spell does not damage; it interrupts and reduces threat, but the mob still attacked me.  If I didnt do any damge, how much threat did I get?  Is there a base amount of threat everyone in an encounter receives, right off the bat?  Also note that I was grouped at the time, they never attacked, or healed me. The mob never turned to any of the group mates, it only focused on me.  Does that mean the interrupt generates more hate than that particular spell reduces?  I dont think that is the case, but it would be interesting to know what happened.

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The consensus I've gathererd is the tank has a certain "threashold" that he can hold agro or whom ever is 1st on the hate list.

dps classes can exceed this "threashold" by a unknown margin and still not pull agro, but once you go over this magical limit the tank has to gain that hate back from every other class who is above the tank in terms of hate.

To better explain it say tank 1 is generating 1K hate per second, and dps class 1 is generating 1200 dps and dps class 2 is generating 1100 dps.

If the threashold is in this example 250 dps the mob stays turned on the tank.  as no one exceeded the threashold.

If dps class 1 gets 1250 dps and pulls agro the tank will have to gain back all the lost hate from doing 1k dps vs 1200, the longer the fight goes on the more hate dps1 class would have and the longer it would take for the tank to gain agro back (not counting ca's and spells that increase the tanks threat position by 1)

then once dps1 dies mob turns on dps2 doing 1100 dps unless the tank has exceeded the hate dps 2 accrued while dps1 was getting beat on, then dps 2 will live and continue on doing 1100 dps.

 

now the other problem with ceace as you mentioned

debuffs all cause hate, as does the initial hostile action.  Therefore once you cast a hostile spell that puts you into combat as a wizard there is no longer anyway you can reduce your hate to 0 and make the mob and encounter reset.

the same goes for scouts who use a targetable de-agro that does no dmg and does not debuff it will still pull them into combat and thus have a mob agroed on that person.

Personally I think whats happening is once you take hostile action in an encounter your on the hate list, no matter what until the encounter is dead or you are(if you are rezzed you regain your status on the hate list).

Therefore using any form of de-agro is useless because the mob doesn't have any other person on its hate list than you, so it will continue to hate you and attack you. 

[Nightwo|f]

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etaipo wrote:Reading through here, and wondering how hate actually works,  Irealised I have no idea.  Some dev posted that 1 dmg = 1 threat,so you would think that if my ice nova lands for 10k, I now have 10kthreat towards the mob I hit, minus any hate reducers for thisexample.  But what happens when a tank taunts after that?  Ifthe hit was hard enough for me to 'get aggro', when the taunt lands andthe mob turns back to the tank, what has happened?  Did the tauntreduce my aggro number below 10k, or did the tank's aggro numberincrease over 10k, so that its now higher than mine?   What got me thinking about this, was last night when I was playing, Idecided to do some goofing off, but we'll call it 'testing'.  Iran up to a mob in TT, a greyed out bitterbloom thingy, and I castcease on it.  The spell does not damage; it interrupts and reducesthreat, but the mob still attacked me.  If I didnt do any damge,how much threat did I get?  Is there a base amount of threateveryone in an encounter receives, right off the bat?  Also notethat I was grouped at the time, they never attacked, or healed me. Themob never turned to any of the group mates, it only focused onme.  Does that mean the interrupt generates more hate than thatparticular spell reduces?  I dont think that is the case, but itwould be interesting to know what happened.

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In this case, your other group mates didn't do anything that created agro, so they weren't placed on the hatelist for the mob, which is why they never got attacked, even though you may technically have 'negative' threat due to the threat reduction component of Cease. Though I would imagine that you can't go below 0 or 1 hate (or whatever is the 'lowest' possible on the hate list).

[slippery]

Something else to consider that some of you may not realise. Assuming a Guardian MT, the better geared up he gets he is actually going to generate less agro. Guardians can get a big portion of their agro from the taunt proc when they get hit. When everyone gets better geared and gets all their masters etc... the Guardian gets hit less so generates less agro.

[ailees]

>IT now I usually wont toss out forge of ro unless its mid fight and I'm going in for a fusion anyways.That's exactly the point I also came to !

[Code2501]

I'm only a part time wizzie, but I thought I'd add something.

If your going to compare de-agro ability of a wizard vs say a predator or rogue, you probably should include de-agro poison procs.

T7 de-agro poison can wipe 800-1.2k agro on a 15% proc rate (depending on common or rare), so your looking at about 3 procs a minute or about 3k agro reduction per minute if they choose to use that poison type.

[ShreddedWhe]

Solution to all of this is a good raid setup.  Do the maximum dps you can given the circumstances you're under.  I would love if they decreased the aggro we accrued because then I wouldn't have to worry about group setup and would just nuke away.  But I don't think it needs to be done, it just takes a bit of work to attain high dps without pulling aggro.  Nothing wrong with a little work, is there?

[Gustuv Wynd]

I'm just starting out as a full time wizard...but I think it is very understandable all the hate we generate.  When you encounter a group of mobs, which ones do you kill first?  The casters...

And besides...what you are asking for is to make the tanks' jobs easier.  If they are un-able to do their jobs then the tank classes are the classes that needs to be changed, not the wizzards.

If there would be one thing I would like to see changed on our behalf is perhaps an "until canceled" buff that reduces a certain percentage of hate.  You'd have to use some of your concentration for it, but it would be worth it in a group/raid situation.  If such a spell would be considered too much then it could have other side effects like adding 25% to spell cast times or increase the power for spell or give a max power reduction while the spell is up.  All kinds of ways to make a spell be both a blessing and a curse, but it would have its situations where it would be a big help.

[PurpleLlama]

It's a little late.Nothing we'll get will be as effective as frostshield was. The time to raise a fuss and get an explanation and try to get it reversed was when the change went live. Now the dev team has moved on. Frostshield, manashield will remain nerfed (although MS only really affects PVP server).Am I bitter? A bit, yes. Trying to convince wizards that 1.) this nerf happened at all, as many didn't believe it had at all for a long time, 2.) that tongue twist is/was laughably ineffective, literally an order of magnitude less effective (10% of frostshield, and an aggro reducer for the wiz rather than aggro increaser for the tank),, 3.) that this would have a major impact in non-ideal circumstances for a substantial portion of those who play wizards, was like pulling teeth. It's going to be next to impossible to get something changed now.

Message Edited by PurpleLlama on 07-06-2006 06:10 PM