Good-bye EQ2

[xsvhrs]

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So if the tank GETS hit, the FS will trigger and do xxx damage to the mob. Don't worry about the 10 sec timer, every decent (raid)mob will slap your tank more than 3 times in 10 seconds. Not to speak of multi mob encounters ...

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That's what I thought.But I still don't understand where all the DSP is coming from. if you cast FS 10 times in an encounter, and the tank gets hit 20 times each time, that's 200 chances to proc, resulting in about 20 procs. 20 procs times about 500 damage is 10k damage.What else am I missing?

[Cecil_Stri]

Wizards don't suck... We can get fairly good dps.. but these classes do more.. a good conj necro or predator is amazing dps wise.

 

Really what do we have to show for our lack of dps... evac?  I love how everyone throws this around.. well you guys have evac!... wow great.. so does every scout... wardens.. and shadow knights.

 

I was doin some number crunches.. basicly what i think happened is in the beta of the combat changes they changed our damage to have a huge variable worth of damage... No other class does this and our power consumption and cast time wasn't changed.  Well after compareing numbers with conj.. conj nukes are actuallly better when it comes to dps and mana per damage ratio. (by a large margin)  Sure i know everyone sees the flashy big numbers and goes ewwww aahhhhh but problem is... we also can hit for low amounts as well... (lower then conjs max hit)

 

Basicly i think mana needs to be dropped a tiny bit for our nukes.... casting time lowered by maybe 20% across the board or min damage increased slightly

[FordPrefect]

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xsvhrs wrote:

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So if the tank GETS hit, the FS will trigger and do xxx damage to the mob. Don't worry about the 10 sec timer, every decent (raid)mob will slap your tank more than 3 times in 10 seconds. Not to speak of multi mob encounters ...

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That's what I thought.But I still don't understand where all the DSP is coming from. if you cast FS 10 times in an encounter, and the tank gets hit 20 times each time, that's 200 chances to proc, resulting in about 20 procs. 20 procs times about 500 damage is 10k damage.What else am I missing?

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Frostshield doesn't proc, it gives instant cold damage EVERY time the target is hit, up to 3 times per cast. So, if you cast it 10 times, it's reasonable to assume that out of the 30 possible times it can fire, it will fire 20 times (meaning that the tank will get hit 20 times or 2x per FS cast). Each of those hits = damage from FS (20 x 800 per hit (pretty reasonable average with M1) = 16K damage.

 

[Silentsta]

StoneySilence I solo all through the day up until raids are called.  I solo for quests, writs, and just plain fun to see if I can take an encounter.  Ive soloed pre LU1 all the way  after LU 19 and can assure you  that my wizard solo's just fine.  My roots stick most of the time, my forge of Ro holds aggro just fine on groups of mobs,  Do I die at times, of course, but Ive killed a lot more then Ive been killed.   Wizard is a good solo class IMO, but hey, its just my opinion.  

[xsvhrs]

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Each of those hits = damage from FS (20 x 800 per hit (pretty reasonable average with M1) = 16K damage.

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Ah, ok, so this spell has changed from being a 10% to proc, to being instant cold damage every time the tank is hit. And you're using a M1.  They still have it showing a 10% chance to proc at ogaming.Ok, now I see where the DPS is coming from, although I haven't seen a M1 for this spell anywhere in drops or on broker. I guess a more realistic expectation of this spell with an Adept 1 or Adept III would be from 1200-1800 damge per cast, which makes it very efficient, but not in the top 4 or 5 spells for most damage (per cast).Even still, sounds like a good enough spell to start adding to my rotation, especially in raids.

[StoneySilen]

Don't forget Frostshield can be resisted by the mob.  I have seen this happen alot.

[BoolaYa]

To return to the point(s) that started this thread before it became another discussion of our DPS in raids:

1. Much of the endgame content, and rewards, is designed for raiders
2. Wizards do not excel at DPS in raids, which makes playing them in the endgame less fun and less attractive to groups
3. Because of 1 and 2, this person is choosing to leave a great game after playing for a while

The issue in #1 is, I believe, the most important:  the reward that is dropped should be commensurate with the skill required to get it.  So, a drop off a group-only mob that requires significant coordination between players in that group, and which is NO TRADE, should be equally as valuable in stats as that dropped off a raid mob that requires a comparable amount of skill.  Adding players to the mix does not require more skill necessarily, it requires more players and to some degree more coordination.  It does not require more risk, and in many cases does not require more time.  I think more NO TRADE items from group-only mobs at the end of long, difficult quests would benefit the game, at all the levels of advancement.

 

[Zmobie]

Re: drops of Frostshield."Ok, now I see where the DPS is coming from, although I haven't seen a M1 for this spell anywhere in drops or on broker."Mine dropped from the Cenobite in CT.--Tusk

[Poochymama]

We need to stop all this discussion about FS and FT and get back to the subject of this post. If you have a parser that adds FS and FT to the other person then simply add about 100 DPS to your current DPS. That still doesn't come close to closing the 600-800 DPS lead the predators have over us.

[xsvhrs]

Rangers just got hella-nerfed on test.Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006 2/14/2005 8:15 pm*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. 

[FordPrefect]

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BoolaYale wrote:

... Adding players to the mix does not require more skill necessarily, it requires more players and to some degree more coordination.  It does not require more risk, and in many cases does not require more time. 

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I highlighted the parts above that I question. 1) How exactly does any encounter in the game pose ANY risk, given that the penalty for death has all but been eliminated. 2) Please explain ... the difference between 6 and 24 players seems to me to account for a great deal more coordination.

[IllusiveThoughts]

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xsvhrs wrote:Rangers just got hella-nerfed on test.Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006 2/14/2005 8:15 pm*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. 

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ah man thats very [Removed for Content].  I also have an assasin and this change affects me too.

I've been saying for some time our spell procs should have gone off on dot ticks to make it a little bit more fair, like our fire proc line proccing off dot ticks of firey convultions, for, cremate...ect. 

It seems soe is trying to nerf scouts down, when we all pretty much feel they are where they should be and we need to go up.

[Silentsta]

"suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more. Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat. Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins, but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected."

 

Guess you can come back to EQ2 now.

[FLLonewu]

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xsvhrs wrote:Rangers just got hella-nerfed on test.Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006 2/14/2005 8:15 pm*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. 

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Wow I bet the scouts are screaming bloody murder.  The huge imbalance in DPS that has been the topic of so much discussion I believe is in the proc rate that the melee classes get.  My parses of raids show rogues and predetors getting roughly 1/3 of thier damage from poisons and poison procs.  Cut this in half or even 1/3 and thier DPS starts to come inline with ours.  Instead of these work around fixes, they just need to fix the proc formula so that its correctly calculated (I've read several posts about this problem)

[Daxtyr_AnnonTuri]

yep i am a ranger .. i give ... no i mean it i give ... you can have it i will never [Removed for Content] about anything again ever as long as before i go ...... they hit the Wizzies with the nerf bat also ... if ranger is T1 dps at 500-600 dps MAX then by all that is holy/ unholy i think ALL classes at lvl 70 need to have a damage CAP at 600 dpsALL skills / spells should shut off and grey out untill the next session for dps is couculated.maybe that will make the wizzie community [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. life will suck when Everyone is playin the only class left in eq2 ....the enchanter .... cause they blow .. but no one expects them to do anything anyways.-Dax

[Daxtyr_AnnonTuri]

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Silentstalk wrote:

"suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more. Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat. Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins, but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected."

 

Guess you can come back to EQ2 now.

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true we are single target dps masters .... i think we should have a 7k AoE arrow storm to unlimited Mobs within 60 feet.maybe that would shut up the wizzies-Dax

[chorpie]

little bit of pent up aggression there, buddy... were you not hugged as a child?  or are you still a child?  its possible..

[Silentsta]

Daxtyr please dont come to wizard forums and cry.  Ive never said anything about ranger dps.  That statement in my post above this one was right from a dev's post.  Go back to the ranger forums.

Message Edited by Silentstalk on 02-16-200603:32 PM

[UnderToad]

I cant believe there are wizs here who don't use forstshield on raids  :  /     Commiserations to the nerfed scouts & tank dps peeps about the newest round of nerfs.

[SaintJere]

i thought i would look back, and i was amazed that there were so many replies to this thread.  thanks.i went to play WoW, and i have to say that it is the best MMO ever made.  eq2 was about an 8/10, WoW is about a 14/10.  i will not go to far in explaining all this, and i wont trash eq2.  i have had fun playing eq2, no denying it.i looked at the patch updates for LU20 and noticed that rangers mostly but melee in general is getting a rebalance (not a big one mind you) concerning the procs.  while this is certainly necessary, it is also insanely long overdue.  and it does nothing to address the issues of summoner dps vs wizard.  for that matter, even post lu20 rangers will still out damage us, just by not as much. well thats it, good-bye and gl.jeremy

[Bruti]

Just wait until you have a level 60 in a week or 2 on WoW and the game will be a -14 out of 10 rating. From someone who played WoW for a year and just came back to EQ2, you are going to run into the exact same problems there that you did on EQ2. At level 60, certain classes aren't needed, other classes do way too much DPS, and Raid equipment is far better than anything you could ever get in a quest.Seriously, read the general WoW forums you will see 100 posts just like yours.Both games are very fun until you reach the level cap, and then unless you like to spend all night in ventrillo or teamspeak with 39 people you dont know killing you will not have fun.

[Trollb]

so, a "too cool for you" crowd guild wouldnt let you in, no surprise there. It happens in all games, usually over gear not just class.

 

I expect in the months ahead wizard will be given a better reputation. The fact is that in game, they have a fine reputation for dps, and when people ask for dps they basically pick whoever is available, and higher level (appropriate to that group).

 

I say shrug it off and find better people to hang out with.

 

 

[Salmand]

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javieto wrote:

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Flat out lies.  Ice Comet (Master 1) does a max of 5986 dmg with capped INT.  The highest I've seen it hit for was around 8900, but it doesn't happen often and the only time it did we had two brigands in the raid.  It's impossible to get the damage you claim without debuffs.

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Did i say im doing that damage without debuff? No i didn't . I said im doing it without FULL debuff. But i use to have all the debuffers but dirges, and sometimes defilers.I don't care about if you trust me or not, im just saying what im doing every day im raiding =), and i don't care neither if the most you've seen is around 8900, i've never seen that much but my raid IC average is about 7.5 :smileywink:If you don't mind, don't call lier someone who you don't know. And read again, almost all spells are Masters.

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ok I AM calling you a liar. i am in a raiding guild, and i KNOW that without FULL DEBUFF you cant break that damage. i KNOW you dont have well over the INT cap (breaking over 500 int now) and i KNOW as well as everyone else in a raid that MOST of the DoF mobs (except LT raid) have resistance to fire and ice. FULLY debuffed, i break just over 8500 with IC adept 3.

[Aeroslin]

To the OP - sorry your thread got hijackedI'm not far off from the cancel button myself.  Right now I'm having fun BUT I agree, the lack of solo-endgame content is really kind of sad.  Being of an analytical mind, however, I cannot see a way around raiding in the game to get the best items.  One of the more recent changes that SOE made that I think helps the solo/3 person teams is the increase in the drop of legendary and fabled equipment from named mobs and encounters.  I think that is about the best bone we're going to get tossed from SOE in that regard.  I really miss the vastness that EQ1 offered.  It made exploration fun.  EQ2 has about a week worth of exploration fun, after that the excitement is gone.

[EvilMissKitty]

This is exactly why, I retired my wizard (sniff) and turned her into a crafter.Look, my wizard is ONLY in the upper 20s but I already encounter problems with her before i decided to retire her.I ask to join a group, they ask what is your class? I say wizard, they say argghh you don't do enough dps, sorry but we are goign to take the necro/conjurer and/or ranger/assassin, sorry.  This happened 5 times within 2 weeks.  Sometimes, the groups would take me in becuase I tell them I have all legendary/fabled gear, and all master or adept 3 and/or pity.Then, to add insult to mypoor wizard, one of my alt healers (also all master/adept IIIs) at the same level had a higher magical hit than my wizard!! I mean this could of just been a freaky incident, because I know generally that class (name unmentioned to avoid any nerfbat) does not do that kind of damage. As such, for the foregoing reasons as well as the reasons already discussed by the original post, I have retired my wizard until we get our rightful place as one of the best single target (non melee) dps class.   Seriously, let's see Wizs don't have a tank pet, basically run around naked in cloth armor, and what do we get in return,  at best medium dps, etc..*rant off*

[Aeroslin]

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EvilMissKitty wrote:

This is exactly why, I retired my wizard (sniff) and turned her into a crafter.Look, my wizard is ONLY in the upper 20s but I already encounter problems with her before i decided to retire her.I ask to join a group, they ask what is your class? I say wizard, they say argghh you don't do enough dps, sorry but we are goign to take the necro/conjurer and/or ranger/assassin, sorry.  This happened 5 times within 2 weeks.  Sometimes, the groups would take me in becuase I tell them I have all legendary/fabled gear, and all master or adept 3 and/or pity.Then, to add insult to mypoor wizard, one of my alt healers (also all master/adept IIIs) at the same level had a higher magical hit than my wizard!! I mean this could of just been a freaky incident, because I know generally that class (name unmentioned to avoid any nerfbat) does not do that kind of damage. As such, for the foregoing reasons as well as the reasons already discussed by the original post, I have retired my wizard until we get our rightful place as one of the best single target (non melee) dps class.   Seriously, let's see Wizs don't have a tank pet, basically run around naked in cloth armor, and what do we get in return,  at best medium dps, etc..*rant off*

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Ugh, I'm glad my wizard is 60 now because I don't have as much trouble with DPS as I did in the 20's.  Since the inclusion of the Master2 upgrades at each x4th level that should help your DPS in a huge way.  For the first time ever, one of my nukes hit for over 7000 points of damage.  This was during a raid fight with plenty of debuffs on the mob but it shows that when you have the INT and debuffs going, Wizard is the top for doing damage.  Alone, the wizard can't debuff enough, it takes a team effort to get that kind of power.  The people that dis you because you're low dps, they're not the players you want with you because they dont know YOUR class.  Pity them for making the wrong choice.