Paladin DPS vs Wizard DPS

[Thuagb]

Oh ya and the parsers will pick up your dmg shields as pally damage as well as frostbound gift procs....

[goboy]

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Zabumtik wrote:

Good, I'm glad I was on the right track.  I think the problem here is the parsers that people are using.  Not our dps.  I hope this helps to quell knee-jerk reactions to parser output.  We've already determined that we have a few spells that don't fit into parsers as they are now.  Go even further and think about some of the other procs other classes might be using on your tank (or other meleers/casters in your group).  I can see where a parser might label them as super-damage classes while the damage done was dependent upon having certain classes in your group.

 

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I would say it is not the parser, rather, it is how the data is logged.  If you have ever taken apart your log file, there is no-way a parser can do anything but assign the damage to the person with the shield since that is the way the damage is logged.  The same with Forge of Ro and Protoflame - nothing in the log message indicates they belong to you. 

edit:  one thing I do when I parse, I look for the Damage Shield and PF/FRO damages and add them to myself.   This works as long as I am only wizard.  If not, then it's a guess of who to assign it to.

 

Message Edited by goboy on 11-08-2005 10:08 AM

[Fingle]

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goboy wrote:

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Zabumtik wrote:

Good, I'm glad I was on the right track.  I think the problem here is the parsers that people are using.  Not our dps.  I hope this helps to quell knee-jerk reactions to parser output.  We've already determined that we have a few spells that don't fit into parsers as they are now.  Go even further and think about some of the other procs other classes might be using on your tank (or other meleers/casters in your group).  I can see where a parser might label them as super-damage classes while the damage done was dependent upon having certain classes in your group.

 

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I would say it is not the parser, rather, it is how the data is logged.  If you have ever taken apart your log file, there is no-way a parser can do anything but assign the damage to the person with the shield since that is the way the damage is logged.  The same with Forge of Ro and Protoflame - nothing in the log message indicates they belong to you. 

edit:  one thing I do when I parse, I look for the Damage Shield and PF/FRO damages and add them to myself.   This works as long as I am only wizard.  If not, then it's a guess of who to assign it to.

 

Message Edited by goboy on 11-08-2005 10:08 AM

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I noticed this yesterday.  A parser can only do so much and if the base info it's working from doesn't give the source of the damage theres not a lot that can be done.  About the only thing possible right now would be to have some flags where you could override and assume any damage done by proto/ro/damage shield belonged to you.  Same with ice bound gift etc. Problem of course is it wouldn't work with more than one wiz in a group and a large number of other classes have extra damage also not included in the parser.  I would love to see sony's figures on how much damage each group member contributes.  The rumour is they have accurate parses for this kind of stuff.

[Telcontari71]

Just to add a couple of things about parsers:

Parses will not pick up procs from singularity, ice bound gift,  or flamshield.  Nor will they correctly attribute damage from Forge or Ro, Frostshield, or Protoflame.

Also I found this most execellent post about parser pitfalls that I reposting.  (I know bad of me)

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=16249

"Everyone is basing so much on DPS numbers posted on the forms and wondering why is my DPS so much lower or higher than those being posted.  Some people are posting DPS in the 500 – 600 range others are posting DPS in the 200 – 300 range.  How can characters in the same class (with close to the same stats) be getting such different numbers?  The reason is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

Here are three reasons your DPS could be different that what you have seen posted on the Forms.  One, there is more than one way to have the parser calculate DPS.  Two, you can “trick” the parser.  Three, your DPS can be different depending on the Mob you are attacking.

There are different options on how to calculate DPS.  Mainly when you start and stop calculating DPS.  I would guess that those who are posting DPS in the 500 -600 range are calculating DPS based on when they personally are in combat, not when the entire group is in combat.  Personally I believe DPS based on when the entire group is in combat is more accurate way to measure yourself against other classes.  First of parsers that calculate DPS based on when you enter combat is giving you an inaccurate number because you don’t enter combat until after your first spell is thrown.  So the problem is that the time you need to cast your first spell isn’t included into the DPS calculation.  In the case of Ice Comet, 4 seconds you need to cast isn’t included in the DPS calculation.  Another reason that DPS calculation based on when the entire group is in combat is that it’s a better measurement of how you are doing as a member of the group.  First, as a caster you don’t start throwing spells the second the tank gets agro.  Why? Because the mob will jump right to you, so you 'must' wait that time (for the tank to get good agro) before you can do damage.  So the tank can start doing damage at the start of the fight, but you  'can’t' do damage for this amount of time.  So should this time that you wait to throw your first spell be included in your DPS calculation?  You bet.  After all it is physically possible for you to throw a spell right when the tank pulls, but you choose not to (or can't).  Just the same as if you wait some time between casting spells so you don’t run out of power, this time should be included in the DPS calculation as well, right?

It’s possible to “trick” the parser as well.  Have you ever thought about this?  Let’s say your fighting a mob that has 1000 points of health left, and you throw Ice Comet.  Now your Ice Comet lands for 4000 points.  Well how should DPS be calculated?  Should your DPS be calculated based on 1000 points or 4000 points?  The parser is going to see 4000 points of damage and use this for the calculation, but is this accurate?  NO.  The reason is that you have gained 3000 points of damage that wasn’t available to the other members of your group.  Had your Ice Comet resisted, the other members of your group would be able to only gain the 1000 points that the mob had left for the DPS calculation.  True, it is possible for other classes to do the same thing, throw an attack/spell that will do more damage than the mob has left of hitpoints, but I don’t know any other class that can do some 5000 damage with on attack/spell (excluding rare events).

I’ve seen a post where someone shows how Ice Comet does 100dps.  5000 points of damage every 50 seconds.  Well, this is inaccurate.  First Ice Comet doesn’t always do 5000 points of damage.  I have hit for over 5000 points and for under 2500 points with Ice Comet.  The other thing to take into consideration is resists.  Throw Ice Comet and have a mob resist it, then what’s your dps? Zero.  Sure sometimes you’ll be able to pull 100 dps off of Ice Comet, but if you average it out, you’ll find the DPS on Ice Comet much lower.

Let’s not forget the types of mobs.  Some mobs have a high resist to fire damage.  So your DPS is going to be lower against these types of mobs.  Some mobs are going to have more hitpoints than others.  People don’t take into consideration that the amount of hitpoints a mob has will affect your DPS.  A mob that you can kill with one spell will give you a different DPS number than a mob that takes you 10 minutes to kill.

In the end, just remember there are so many factors that come into play when calculating DPS, so much so that trying to determine how you stack up against others on the form is nearly impossible (at least not if you want to be exact).  Use your DPS calculation to improve yourself as a character, trying to use it to compare yourself to other classes is flawed.  If you want to know how you stack up against other classes, measure yourself against other classes in your group, not numbers people post on the forms.  If you think your DPS is low, think about asking another Wizard to join your group and see how you stack up that way.  Ask what they are doing if you are seeing that your numbers are lower than theirs are. "

 

[killzo]

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Cuki_55 wrote:

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Pkachu:

Well, there is your problem my Friend. We are not an AOE class (Thats the Warlock) we are DD. Mana Regens, it's there to be spent.

Your argument seems to consist of the following:

'If I want to do the most DPS, then I can, but instead I *choose* to try and do something that is not my speciality and when i do that sometimes other people do more damage than me'

o_0

Plus, look at it this way, if you are trying to AOE 5 mobs down, that means 5 mobs are beating on the tank for the duration of the fight, causing 5 times the damage, and requiring 5 times the healing. If You burn them down one by one then the total mob DPS is dropping dramatically as the fight progresses.

Why not ask your tank and healer which they prefer?

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With the right group setup you can kill five mobs at the time just as fast as we can nuke one mob down basicly!

And if you don't use your AOE's, then your just stupid! You can easily use your AOE's and then use some DD nukes afterwards... Thats why your AOE's are dot's (2 of them tho) so you can nuke while they tick!

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This is exactly the problem that a lot of people are missing.  If a group using aoe's can take 4 mobs down just as fast as 6 why waste your power using dd on single targets?  Your not defeating the group any faster AND your dps numbers will still be low (make no mistake, even using DD against group encounters you will get out dpsed by any class that has decent aoe attacks.)  Your better off using your aoe attacks which WILL decrease the time it takes to kill the entire group.  

Either way you look at it our dps will suck against grouped mobs.  Ironically using dd to improve our dps numbers actually gives worse results.

[killzo]

Just an fyi, the Paladin he was refering too had said he outdamages Wizards against group mobs.  There is no doubt that Wizard AoE at this time is truly pathetic.  Way back during the first month of release the fiery pulse line was actually good.  It didn't do all that much more damage than it does now BUT it had a 2 second cast and like a 10 second recast.   Back then botters used to use groups with 5 wizards so they nerfed it.

 

From my experience when grouped with other more able AoE classes our dps is at the pathetic level.  Sure you can try to hit one target with Ice Comet (assuming the mobs stay alive long enough to cast it), but you will often end up killing a mob with less than 2k HP left.  Compared to a Warlock we dish out less than 50% of their AoE damage.  The numbers are not much better compared to Conjurers and Necros.

Against single target encounters we dish out maybe 10% more than a Warlock and will get out dps'd by a Conjurer or Necro (and I mean out dps'd even when you hit for 5k+ with Ice Comet, 2500+ with BoI and 2200+ with incapacitate.  Their pets just dish out that much damage in the amount of time it takes to cast off all those spells.

 

No one is saying the Wizard class is not fun.  I got my Wizard to 60 and had fun doing it.  The problem is, there is just no excuse for these major discrepancies in the dps numbers.  All the other mage classes (except coercers and illusionists - those classes are truly pathetic and should be revamped)  put up VERY good AoE numbers AND 2 of the classes will out damage Wizards against single targets even if we put up close to max numbers.  So where does that leave Wizards? 

[blynchehaun]

< So where does that leave Wizards?  > Well, according to you, it leaves them "having fun". I too am having fun. Therefore: what's the problem? The objective is to have fun, right? Which is being achieved, so no problem. Or is your objective to wave a metaphorical-wang around crowing about having top DPS? If so: go start a class that has the top DPS.

[Cecil_Stri]

The thread was about AoEs...

 

Palis get abuncha outta combat ones and an aura that pulses kinda like our forge of ro.   Well that got nerfed yesterday i think but in certain situations yes a pali can't out damage a wizard.  Its all a matter of smart playing...  Against a triple up no they can't but against  abuncha smaller mobs then yes they can.

 

Problem about wizards AoEs is they take so long to cast that you gotta target the mob that the tank isn't on... and then its a dot so it doesn't do all that much damage since those mobs don't last long at all.

 

AoEs take way too long to cast and they weren't thought out at all imo.....  If it takes 3 seconds to kill a mob why is an AoE taking 3 seconds to cast.....  then on top of that being dot ticks the damage is really only useful soloing

Inferno and forge of ro is nice tho... and can really dish out the damage with it 

[Cecil_Stri]

I am very happy with my class.. but its still not balanced and you guys are selling yourself short.

 

Necros out dps us pretty consistantly... same with conjs....  many of the rogue classes

 

It seems that the tier system that they wanted just isn't right.... tier 2 seems to be above tier 1 atm in almost all situations.  Assassins suck... wizards and warlocks can be beat easily by the pet classes....  rangers i guess are only one doin well.

 

Not saying i am unhappy playing a wizards cause our dps is great... its just not as good as they said it would be and we are still getting outdamaged (pet classes proly need to be nerfed but rogues .. such as brigands and swashs are putting out as much damage as i am as well..)

 

I have 420 int... and all adept 3 spells.. if a dev actually wishes to know.  Also i do debuff and throw down my nukes after..

 

just seems that i am fighting way too hard (pulling aggro and just not playing smart) just to try to get highest dps and get above these classes cause my pride as a wizard knows that its possible... but it would be other way around.. these classes should be fighting to get above US.  I know a wizard shouldn't be highest dps all the time...  but...  we aren't even highest most of the time

 

 

And btw.. wizards have better outta combat AoEs then warlocks.. k thanks.. 

Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on 11-10-2005 07:46 AM

[IllusiveThoughts]

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killzone wrote:

Just an fyi, the Paladin he was refering too had said he outdamages Wizards against group mobs.  There is no doubt that Wizard AoE at this time is truly pathetic.  Way back during the first month of release the fiery pulse line was actually good.  It didn't do all that much more damage than it does now BUT it had a 2 second cast and like a 10 second recast.   Back then botters used to use groups with 5 wizards so they nerfed it.

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I remember those days it was 2s cast 2s recast.  you basically chained it and at lvl 30 it did 200dmg + 3 125dmg dot ticks that landed on each mob in the encounter.  One wizard would pwn the multi group goblins in el with a tank aoe taunting.

 

They need to do that again with the shocking flash line.  2s cast and 4 second recast is more reasonable because then you could chain the dot's which fire every 2s for 3 ticks.  Much like we can with cremate our single target nuke/dot.  should be the same for aoes.  and this way they dont have to adjust the spell lines dmg since it only maxes at 220ish / tick and low balls at 100 tick.