Paladin DPS vs Wizard DPS

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

hey guys..quick question for you...hopefully someone here has a Paladin and a Wizard that can answer this question for me.

 

Is it possible for a Paladin to out DPS a Wizard? The reason why I ask this is because in the spells and combat forums theres a Wizard who swears hes being out-DPS'd by a Paladin. Now, I know you guys still have gimped spells because of resists not being fixed and have some other broken or gimped spells..but truly, and remember this is against Paladins.

 

If a Paladin casted all his nukes in one minute and auto attacked..could he out DPS a wizard who casted every damage art in one minute?

[Mr.Sativas]

If a wizard gets ressisted then a paladin could out dps us yes hehe. But if we land our spells there is no way an Paladin can out damage us as it is now. Not on single mobs, and not on group mobs.

[Antai]

I have been playing regularely with an paladin before lu 15 and against groups he did outdamage me when his specials were up (every 3rd or 4th fight). We didn't parse after the CU, so I have no idea where we stand today.

[tass]

as a person who has both classes i can assuradly say that unless there was a resist every spell cast a pally could not out dps a wizard. a wizard and warlock and even ur pet class are the real dmg doers. plus while a pally does his dmg and wards and such, he cant keep it up at a constant flow because of timers and loss of power. anyway rest assured no tank class could ever outdamage us dps wise unless the wizard didnt know what he was doing with his spells which in some cases ive found people who dont lol.

Message Edited by holystones on 11-05-2005 09:36 AM

[Pkac]

I don't play both, but my Roomie has a 50 Pallie to my 49 Wizard and we have regularly duo'd all the way up. I think we both know our classes pretty well, and we parse fights with Combatstats, and we do it specifically for bragging rights, and such important things as who's turn it is to pay for Pizza

TBH Pre Update I could out DPS him every fight, but I had to be on my game, If I wasn't paying attention particularly, and he was on fire then he could come top of the Parse, I could also regularly strip aggro off of him, because to try for max DPS he was having to forsake alot of taunts/Heals.

Since the combat update there is no way in hell he can touch my DPS, but in Defensive stance and taunting I am pretty free to nuke away without drawing aggro (Assuming I don't do anything *Really* stupid)

Any Wizard saying he is regularly outdamaged by a Pallie can't play his class, pure and simple.

[curtlewis]

I suggest if you play a Paladin you reexamine your abilties and upgrade them if possible, because you're not doing the damage you can.  I know three 55+ Pallies that aren't encrusted in Fabled gear that consistently outdamage any wizard they play with (myself or otherwise). The logs don't lie.

[tass]

well good for them, im getting tired of everyone relying on the mage to make up for there lazyness. if a tank can do good dps then that just means i wont be out of mana after every battle and then the grp is like jeeze now we gota wait for the mage to mana up again:smileyvery-happy:

[curtlewis]

If we DD only, we can beat them.  But to handle a typical pull of 4-5 mobs with DDs is expensive on the mana.  AoE is the obvious choice... and that's when everyone starts kicking our butts.

[Pkac]

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curtlewis wrote:
If we DD only, we can beat them.  But to handle a typical pull of 4-5 mobs with DDs is expensive on the mana.  AoE is the obvious choice... and that's when everyone starts kicking our butts.

---

Well, there is your problem my Friend. We are not an AOE class (Thats the Warlock) we are DD. Mana Regens, it's there to be spent.

Your argument seems to consist of the following:

'If I want to do the most DPS, then I can, but instead I *choose* to try and do something that is not my speciality and when i do that sometimes other people do more damage than me'

o_0

Plus, look at it this way, if you are trying to AOE 5 mobs down, that means 5 mobs are beating on the tank for the duration of the fight, causing 5 times the damage, and requiring 5 times the healing. If You burn them down one by one then the total mob DPS is dropping dramatically as the fight progresses.

Why not ask your tank and healer which they prefer?

[curtlewis]

Man, you just don't get it.  We ARE an AoE class.  That's why we have the spells.

[Cuki_]

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Pkachu:

Well, there is your problem my Friend. We are not an AOE class (Thats the Warlock) we are DD. Mana Regens, it's there to be spent.

Your argument seems to consist of the following:

'If I want to do the most DPS, then I can, but instead I *choose* to try and do something that is not my speciality and when i do that sometimes other people do more damage than me'

o_0

Plus, look at it this way, if you are trying to AOE 5 mobs down, that means 5 mobs are beating on the tank for the duration of the fight, causing 5 times the damage, and requiring 5 times the healing. If You burn them down one by one then the total mob DPS is dropping dramatically as the fight progresses.

Why not ask your tank and healer which they prefer?

---

 

With the right group setup you can kill five mobs at the time just as fast as we can nuke one mob down basicly!

And if you don't use your AOE's, then your just stupid! You can easily use your AOE's and then use some DD nukes afterwards... Thats why your AOE's are dot's (2 of them tho) so you can nuke while they tick!

[adamflanagan]

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curtlewis wrote:Man, you just don't get it.  We ARE an AoE class.  That's why we have the spells.

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umm... no, we are a DD class. we do have AE spells but that doesnt mak us an AE class. if you apply that logic to other classes it would make monks healers and priests nukers.

[Ambidextro]

I'm a 55 WIzard and yes, its very possible for a paladin to outdamage me, at least in an AOE group. I was parsing a group just for fun down in the Silent City, having the Pally pull several different groups of mobs at a time back to the group (2 Wizards, Illusionist, Fury, Necromancer, plus the Paladin). Now, I'm not too knowledgeable about Paladin skills but they have one called Consecrated Aura (think its a high 50s skill) and basically asides from sticking every mob to the tank, it allows the pally to do LOTS of dps. I thought it might be a bug at first, as I'm used to being first in the damage order I was skeptical. All of my spells are Adept 3 at least, and I was laying down my Forge of Ro before every fight began, and not to mention casting Frostshield on the tank every time it was available. On an average group of about 12-20 mobs that we would pull, I would average something like 800-1000 dps, but the paladin was averaging 1500 DPS. I think his high was around 1700, and when i saw this I naturally flipped out and reset my parser, but after several other people in the group parsed it also, it came out the same. Once again, not really sure still how the Paladin was doing it, but it IS possible for the pally to outdamage the wizzy, at least in that situation.

 

 

Greymist

55 High Elf WIzard of Oggok

[Tanit]

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adamflanagan wrote: umm... no, we are a DD class. we do have AE spells but that doesnt mak us an AE class. if you apply that logic to other classes it would make monks healers and priests nukers.

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Sorcerers are both ae and single target, with warlocks a little more ae than us. There should be no doubt that we should do more ae than a tank. edit: typo ><

Message Edited by Tanith_ on 11-07-2005 02:46 AM

[Pkac]

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curtlewis wrote:
Man, you just don't get it.  We ARE an AoE class.  That's why we have the spells.

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I give up, I'm going back to enjoying my class, I'll call you a Whaaambulance.

[Sotha]

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Tanith_ wrote:

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adamflanagan wrote:
umm... no, we are a DD class. we do have AE spells but that doesnt mak us an AE class. if you apply that logic to other classes it would make monks healers and priests nukers.

---

Sorcerers are both ae and dd, with warlocks a little more ae than us. There should be no doubt that we should do more ae than a tank.

---

Tanith is right on this one, warlocks have a higher aoe, wizard have a higher DD. On single encounters the warlocks choose to use their DD spells. Same logic applies to us, on group encounters we should be choosing to use our aoe spells. If we need to use DD spells in order to get a higher dps in an aoe encounter then something is missing.

[Zabumt]

One question I have about parsers in their current state.  Are our damage shield numbers being calculated correctly?  Not saying this would account for the disparity between a paladin in an AE situation and a Wizard.  But, maybe the parser isn't picking up the damage since the output for damage shield damage uses the name of whomever has the damage shield on them.

 

[StoneySilen]

Technically doesn't the game count the Damage shield as for the person who has it on them (hate wise)?  So if I cast coldshield on my tank he get's those hate points (except when I initially cast it, I seem to get alot of hate).

[AndyTheSlay]

The only way a pally can out damage a wizzy is if the wizzy is knocked out

[goboy]

Not sure how your parsers are working, but if it is beneficial to use AOE spells - my DPS normally goes up.  The more mobs there are, the higher your dps will go up.  If you are not outdpsing your DD spells with your  AOE spells - maybe there are not enough mobs nearby to justify using the AOE spell.  And throw instantaneous dps out the window, what is your sustained dps.

[blynchehaun]

Curtlewis: please post logs.

[adamflanagan]

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Sothars wrote:

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Tanith_ wrote:

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adamflanagan wrote:umm... no, we are a DD class. we do have AE spells but that doesnt mak us an AE class. if you apply that logic to other classes it would make monks healers and priests nukers.

---

Sorcerers are both ae and dd, with warlocks a little more ae than us. There should be no doubt that we should do more ae than a tank.

---

Tanith is right on this one, warlocks have a higher aoe, wizard have a higher DD. On single encounters the warlocks choose to use their DD spells. Same logic applies to us, on group encounters we should be choosing to use our aoe spells. If we need to use DD spells in order to get a higher dps in an aoe encounter then something is missing.

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i do see your point about sorcerers being AE and DD. however the original post implied that AE is our primary role, which it is not.

[Cuki_]

Just so you know, Frostshield does NOT add to your total dmg!

 

I tried a fight that was parsed and I put the frostshield on the tank twice and did nothing else! The parser showed a big fat 0 at my dmg/dps.

Not sure if it adds to the tanks dps, but would think so!

Message Edited by Cuki_55 on 11-07-2005 04:10 AM

[Tanit]

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adamflanagan wrote:i do see your point about sorcerers being AE and DD. however the original post implied that AE is our primary role, which it is not.

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The wizard's primary role is dps, both single target and ae. A dps class should do more dps than a tank in every way.

[Telcontari71]

99% NO.  1% Yes

The 99%:

Unless there is a warlock AEing like crazy in the same group, you should have redemption on you.  With this little baby, you can Debuff and IceComet (or your best nuke instantly).  Then just go crazy with nukes, no aggro.. and every 20 sec, keep casing your DMG shield on the pally.  Believe it or not, this is one of the most mana efficient spells behing Ice Flame.. (which I still use and goes every time for 800+).    At this point it should be impossible for Pally to out DPS you.  If they are doing that every time, then I am afarid you are doing something wrong.

The 1%:

The mob is immune to one or both line of spells.  You get a lot of resists.  You have nothing but App IIs and Pallys nukes are Masters.   I mean to date the best Master II training choice pally spell I know does about 1Kish of damage at L54.  I do more than thant with Ball of Fire  (Not Ball of Falmes or BoI..   Fire) That is a 20s spell.

 

 

[brow27]

As a side note about the parsers.. The damage shield's damage is added to the person it is cast on, not you (unless you cast it on yourself).  Also, the damage done by Forge of Ro and Protoflame doesn't get added to your damage totals either.  If you lay down FoR, then have the tank pull, and you use all your AEs, any tank will be hard pressed to outdamage you.  Add in your damage procs for even more dps.

[papabear0]

on a single mob encounter, no way in hell can a pally out damage me. (unless its an extremely long fight , i run out of power, mob is resistent to my nukes, blah blah blah)

 

on a single encounter with multiple mobs, would have to say its highly unlikely a pally can outdamage me.  even with my weaker ae nukes, i can still do solid damage. (unless its an extrememly long fi........blah blah blah..)

 

on multiple encounters together with multiple mobs.   hell , even a lvl 32 druid with epilepsy can beat in damage. (its a little over exageration, but you get the idea),  we're not that good with out of encounter ae's.

[IllusiveThoughts]

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brow27 wrote:
As a side note about the parsers.. The damage shield's damage is added to the person it is cast on, not you (unless you cast it on yourself).  Also, the damage done by Forge of Ro and Protoflame doesn't get added to your damage totals either.  If you lay down FoR, then have the tank pull, and you use all your AEs, any tank will be hard pressed to outdamage you.  Add in your damage procs for even more dps.

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I can confirm this too.

 

I never liked how protoflame & forge of ro dont display as our damage.  Forge of ro ticks are in grey & protoflames hits(default color) and does 180-230 tick(FOR) and 50-240(protoflame).  What I dont know because I cant tell with all the other char aoes flying is if FOR is encounter specific or if its a true aoe.

I can tell you that Forge of Ro is a beast, even on single mob pulls I use it and park my butt behind the mobs facing the tank.  Its great because it does dmg even as your casting & has fast cast timer, acts like a dot, so fire it off first and cast away.  Figure it ticks once every 6 sec for 36 sec or 6 ticks.  6x200 average = 1200 dmg to one mob.  This spell gets really usefull on a 5-6 mob group.  1200x6= 7200 / 36 sec duration + 2s cast .5 recast = 187.7dps for 6 mobs and 31.2 dps for single target.

I also turn on auto attack, because i have a t6 imbued wand that'll do about 40-50dmg ever 1.9sec, and the toon will swing in between casts for another 26dps, I also proc myself with firey grandur that can do 25 x3 = 75 more dmg 25% of the time. 

It really starts to add up how much dmg you can put out with just sitting on your butt casting for, auto attacking, and chaining boi and sunstrike/flamestrike. 

When you really want to get high dps you can start getting creative, but I always auto attack and leave for up to squeeze out that lil bit more.

One problem is surge line does not proc when this spell does, or when you first cast it either.  If we got those two working together it would add another 70-90dmg per tick per mob.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 11-07-2005 02:50 PM

[Zabumt]

Good, I'm glad I was on the right track.  I think the problem here is the parsers that people are using.  Not our dps.  I hope this helps to quell knee-jerk reactions to parser output.  We've already determined that we have a few spells that don't fit into parsers as they are now.  Go even further and think about some of the other procs other classes might be using on your tank (or other meleers/casters in your group).  I can see where a parser might label them as super-damage classes while the damage done was dependent upon having certain classes in your group.

 

[ailees]

there is no parser that can say WHO really is damaging ! I mean if you cast an Ice Comet and do 7K damage, then it is not YOU, it is YOU+ debuffers+increase damage spell put on you. For example I grouped with a 60 player who had a 1000 debuff spell. My average damage increased a lot of course... now about pally and wizz, of course I outdamage a pally my level.