The 411

[Ennis]

I play a Wizard in FoH. Ranvier is a long time friend from EQ1 where we were both in the same guild for a long time. We are both in beta, we both have beta tested raid content, we both have had our levels raised to 60 by the devs and have all master spells.That being said here is the 411. Take everything you know about playing an EQ2 Wizard and throw it out because when DoF/CC rolls out you WILL be playing a whole new way. The Wizard has been reborn! The Wizard class is now what it should be!!!Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Warlock community you are not being "nerfed" despite how things may appear. You too will have to throw out your current playstyle which is NOT a bad thing!!! I am sure Ranvier will post as to that subject. However, in short term "mini boss" fights a Wizards DPS is greater due to the nature of the spells-the Wizard is a burst DPS specialist. But on long term "boss mob" (the ones we tested were level 64-67^^^x4 mobs) Ranvier parsed ahead of me, though I was holding back a bit for reasons explained below.Why was I holding back you may ask?Because the WHOLE nature of aggro has changed. For the the first couple fights I would draw aggro, be dead for about a third of the fight and still outparse Ranvier. Drawing aggro in a raid setting is NOT DESIRABLE, period!!!!!For the first couple fights I was fighting with the current "EQ2 mind" of "bombs away" and I would end up doing a dirt nap. Then Ranvier would be doing a dirt nap right beside me. Guildies and guild leader were not happy with us playing aggro ping-pong which is quite understandable. So I went back to my "EQ1 Wizard" mind and tried to adapt the tactics of the EQ1 Wizard to an EQ2 setting. For those who did not play EQ1 as a Wizard I will explain the basic tactic of the EQ1 Wizard. The hallmarks of a good EQ1 raiding/grouping Wizard was to do as much damage as possible while always remaining #2 on the aggro list. If you were consistantly drawing aggro you soon got a reputation (well deserved by the way) of being a lousy Wizard and you would never see another group. Do that alot in a raid setting and you would find yourself guildless in a hurry.In EQ1 we had no debuffs, no DoT's per se (rain spells are the closest EQ1 equivalent-we were forbidden to use them in a raid setting unless instructed to. They broke mez.) etc. In EQ1 we also did not have spells that share the same timer as others so that is another adjustment. The first couple mobs it was sorta rocky because I was intentionally being over cautious, trying different combinations of spells to do max. DPS without drawing aggro. Once I got the hang of it I found that I could do great damage (in the top 6 on the parse everytime) while not drawing aggro. I know I was not at the max DPS I could do but I was working up to it.What I finally settled into was DoT's/small, fast casting nukes such Flamestrike/Ball of Flames until the mob was at 50% or below. Then I would bring in the big nukes such as Ice Comet/Surging Tempest into the mix along with the DoT's, small fast nukes-wash, rinse and repeat. Then I tried some other things which brought up the DPS some more like adding a couple more small nukes and learning how to use Flame Surge/Icebound Gift. In beta they are no longer manapump/resist buffs! They are a self buff of short duration that seems equivalent to hitting a HO for full, adding an extra 5-10% damage onto the appropriate nuke. Flame Surge=fire nukes, Icebound Gift=ice nukes. Once I get the true feel for it I may move the big bomb "threshold" up to 60% or higher. The key is to do max DPS WITHOUT drawing aggro.I will edit this post to put in URL's to screenshots of the spells at Master 1 later on today.EDIT 1: As far as resists go for DoF content they seem to be quite reasonable. One would think that mobs who live in a hot desert would be a bit more resistant to fire based nukes and I accept that. That is all I ever asked for, reasonable resists that make sense.

Message Edited by Ennis on 08-27-2005 03:13 AM

EDIT 2: Following are URL's for the screenshots. One thing I forgot to mention in OP is the masters for the new DoT/Debuffs are screwed up so I can't scribe em.

A personal observation of the Warlock/Wizard combo in beta. The Wizard is a sprinter, The Warlock a marathon runner. The Wizard is a sniper, the Warlock is the assult rifle. If my perception is correct it may very well turn out that in a raid situation Wizards are used primarily to knock down adds quickly while Warlocks concentrate on boss mob with the rest of the raid. If adds need to be AE'ed then we both work on em to knock 'em down fast. When adds eliminated the Wizard can chime in on the boss. IMHO that is a beautiful set up in a raid situation! One where each class is viable and highly desired, one where if you work together you both will shine. Yes, I have complained loudly and bitterly about the problems Wizards faced. Yes, I thought SoE would not fix things properly. From what I have seen I have to tip my hat to SoE.

http://www.luclin.org/files/amersham//spell1.jpg

http://www.luclin.org/files/amersham//spell2.jpg

http://www.luclin.org/files/amersham//spell_3.jpg

Message Edited by Ennis on 08-27-2005 09:32 AM

[Beghard]

XXX OOO I LOVE YOU

[Magiocracy]

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Ennis wrote:I play a Wizard in FoH. Ranvier is a long time friend from EQ1 where we were both in the same guild for a long time. We are both in beta, we both have beta tested raid content, we both have had our levels raised to 60 by the devs and have all master spells.That being said here is the 411. Take everything you know about playing an EQ2 Wizard and throw it out because when DoF/CC rolls out you WILL be playing a whole new way. The Wizard has been reborn! The Wizard class is now what it should be!!!Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Warlock community you are not being "nerfed" despite how things may appear. You too will have to throw out your current playstyle which is NOT a bad thing!!! I am sure Ranvier will post as to that subject. However, in short term "mini boss" fights a Wizards DPS is greater due to the nature of the spells-the Wizard is a burst DPS specialist. But on long term "boss mob" (the ones we tested were level 64-67^^^x4 mobs) Ranvier parsed ahead of me, though I was holding back a bit for reasons explained below.Why was I holding back you may ask?Because the WHOLE nature of aggro has changed. For the the first couple fights I would draw aggro, be dead for about a third of the fight and still outparse Ranvier. Drawing aggro in a raid setting is NOT DESIRABLE, period!!!!!For the first couple fights I was fighting with the current "EQ2 mind" of "bombs away" and I would end up doing a dirt nap. Then Ranvier would be doing a dirt nap right beside me. Guildies and guild leader were not happy with us playing aggro ping-pong which is quite understandable. So I went back to my "EQ1 Wizard" mind and tried to adapt the tactics of the EQ1 Wizard to an EQ2 setting. For those who did not play EQ1 as a Wizard I will explain the basic tactic of the EQ1 Wizard. The hallmarks of a good EQ1 raiding/grouping Wizard was to do as much damage as possible while always remaining #2 on the aggro list. If you were consistantly drawing aggro you soon got a reputation (well deserved by the way) of being a lousy Wizard and you would never see another group. Do that alot in a raid setting and you would find yourself guildless in a hurry.In EQ1 we had no debuffs, no DoT's per se (rain spells are the closest EQ1 equivalent-we were forbidden to use them in a raid setting unless instructed to. They broke mez.) etc. In EQ1 we also did not have spells that share the same timer as others so that is another adjustment. The first couple mobs it was sorta rocky because I was intentionally being over cautious, trying different combinations of spells to do max. DPS without drawing aggro. Once I got the hang of it I found that I could do great damage (in the top 6 on the parse everytime) while not drawing aggro. I know I was not at the max DPS I could do but I was working up to it.What I finally settled into was DoT's/small, fast casting nukes such Flamestrike/Ball of Flames until the mob was at 50% or below. Then I would bring in the big nukes such as Ice Comet/Surging Tempest into the mix along with the DoT's, small fast nukes-wash, rinse and repeat. Then I tried some other things which brought up the DPS some more like adding a couple more small nukes and learning how to use Flame Surge/Icebound Gift. In beta they are no longer manapump/resist buffs! They are a self buff of short duration that seems equivalent to hitting a HO for full, adding an extra 5-10% damage onto the appropriate nuke. Flame Surge=fire nukes, Icebound Gift=ice nukes. Once I get the true feel for it I may move the big bomb "threshold" up to 60% or higher. The key is to do max DPS WITHOUT drawing aggro.I will edit this post to put in URL's to screenshots of the spells at Master 1 later on today.EDIT 1: As far as resists go for DoF content they seem to be quite reasonable. One would think that mobs who live in a hot desert would be a bit more resistant to fire based nukes and I accept that. That is all I ever asked for, reasonable resists that make sense.

Message Edited by Ennis on 08-27-2005 03:13 AM

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Thank you for the info Ennis - useful to both Wizards and Warlocks alike. Would it be possible for you to post the parsed comparison between Wizard and Warlock in one given raid situation so we can see some hard numbers.

[Ennis]

Magiocracy, Ranvier probably has the parses, most times it seemed we were within 20DPS or so on most mobs, but that might change as I get more used to the spell lineup. On some mobs/fights he did better, on some I did. In almost all of the fights we were both in top 6. But IMHO everyone better concentrate more on aggro management then on the DPS pi&&ing contest.

One other thing...

I really did not have a power problem in any of the fights, never had to harvest, never used a manastone. Of course we got to bypass alot of stuff due to the devs but in the long run I don't see it being that big of an issue unless you are an overburner. Of course, my opinion may change on this but as it stands right now I really do not see that much of a problem. I do not have as good of gear as Ranvier does, no Robe of the Ishiva-that kind of thing.

Message Edited by Ennis on 08-27-2005 10:22 AM

[xeric]

If this is true as you describe it, it is the best thing I have heard since EQ2 came out. 

[Ennis]

I am sorry about adding "one more thing" to this thread. But.... I am going to see if Ran wants to mosey over to beta sometime this weekend. I have a hunch that we would absolutely kick butt as a duo. :smileyvery-happy: We got some great group/duo/solo spells in DoF too! I forgot to mention that Wizards got a fast casting SOLO evac called Portal. It is on the same timer as group evac (Depart) but have it go off in 3 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds will make a great difference on whether or not you make it out alive.

[Mystild]

Ennis, thank you so much for posting this information. It's good to see we have a wizzy testing out how we do against raid mobs, and telling us some strategies on how to play our completely revamped class.

 

Thanks again.

[Ranvi]

Here are the screenshots of the parses. I have Ennis' game name blackened out because there is no need for her name.

The first parser screenshot is a different raid and Ennis wasn't on it btw.

 

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And our dear Dev

 

[Ranvi]

Basically wizards and warlocks are equal dps. Ennis wasn't accustomed to all the new Wizard spells and we were off to raiding right after getting the master spells. Both wizards and warlocks are capable of SO MUCH damage now that we have to be careful. By just using like 10 spells we can dish out a LOT of damage. One no longer has to spam the hotkey windows to do uber dps. The old EQ1 thing of aggro management is back...so a good wizard/warlock will be one who does the most dps w/o getting aggro because getting aggro is easier now than it ever was and mobs hit so hard that healers won't really be able to save you. I am out of time for the moment.

[Andre]

Wizards are snipers Warlocks are assault riffle...Well sayd and may be but most conzerns of warlocks was : non compatibility of e´warlocks and any other crowdcontrol type in RAID/Group, severity nerfed Soloability ( wizards got this much better as pre rewamp just because they can shoot down every solo mob in 2 shorts), uncontrolled manaissue on warlocks side. Well for you and you friend for such parses but i simple not sure you post here what you get exactly RAID: Situation 1: Wizard scare of aggro and simple cast nothing due first 2 mins ( result 0 aggro 0 mana spended )                    Warlock cast everything he had gains aggro pos 0 und had after first round of cast 50% mana. fazit : loosy warlock. Situation 2: Wizard not scare of DPS and layout all what he had - mob is dead warlock is halfcasted first round of spells. fazit : loosy warlock. SOLO: Wizard pull with Tempest und direct after it killed mob wiht Ice Comet              Warlock pull with devastation and half next cast interrupted and droppen in dirt by heavyhitting mob. Not ably to cast every single massive nuke because of 4 sec cast of them. fazit : loosy warlock. Well after such i can for sure assume warlocks and wizards have same profit from Combat Changes. Bleh.

[Ennis]

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Andre Z wrote:Wizards are snipers Warlocks are assault riffle...Well sayd and may be but most conzerns of warlocks was : non compatibility of e´warlocks and any other crowdcontrol type in RAID/Group, severity nerfed Soloability ( wizards got this much better as pre rewamp just because they can shoot down every solo mob in 2 shorts), uncontrolled manaissue on warlocks side. Well for you and you friend for such parses but i simple not sure you post here what you get exactly RAID: Situation 1: Wizard scare of aggro and simple cast nothing due first 2 mins ( result 0 aggro 0 mana spended )                    Warlock cast everything he had gains aggro pos 0 und had after first round of cast 50% mana. fazit : loosy warlock. Situation 2: Wizard not scare of DPS and layout all what he had - mob is dead warlock is halfcasted first round of spells. fazit : loosy warlock. SOLO: Wizard pull with Tempest und direct after it killed mob wiht Ice Comet              Warlock pull with devastation and half next cast interrupted and droppen in dirt by heavyhitting mob. Not ably to cast every single massive nuke because of 4 sec cast of them. fazit : loosy warlock. Well after such i can for sure assume warlocks and wizards have same profit from Combat Changes. Bleh.

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Am not really sure as to what you are getting at. We were both talking about raid/group situations. Either way you BETTER forget the DPS pi&&ing contest and concentrate on learning aggro management, period! You better start unlearning all your tactics that you have used because when DoF/CC comes out they will be obsolete. NO ONE is going to be impressed with someone who constantly pulls aggro because they want to have the DPS big "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]". A dead Wizard/Warlock does NO DPS, remember that.  If you don't no one will want you in a group or a raid and that goes for both classes.

[Lamprey_02]

Can you post exp group parses? Not everyone raids, and few people out of their teens do (not enough time in the day with a job  a family) so group viability is a huge issue for that demographic.

[Myzyri]

Would you guys mind getting into an XP group together and then going toe to toe on dps? Raids look fine but the simple fact of the matter is if wizards can do 3 times the amount of damage in a xp group then warlocks are going to be less desireable there. No xp group means not getting to 60 means comparisons on raids are pointless.

[Sar]

anyone mind explaing those numbers to me? im not familiar with the parsing program and how it works, thanks =)

~30 Warlock

Faydark

[Alfgand]

Great Post !

 

I am very happy you are finding that our brother Warlocks are not nerfed as bad as they seemed to think !

[stepha72]

I also would like to see the single and small group parse numbers.  I think this shows that in raids warlocks and wizards do about equal DPS. 

I'm interested to see if these numbers and see if some adjustments still need to be made to wizards/warlocks for non-raid situations

 

[adamflanagan]

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Sarah wrote:

anyone mind explaing those numbers to me? im not familiar with the parsing program and how it works, thanks =)

~30 Warlock

Faydark

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the basic format is: group damage delt : group damage taken : group DPS highest hit : spell name group member : damage delt : damage taken : DPS

[Salastine]

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stepha72 wrote:

I also would like to see the single and small group parse numbers.  I think this shows that in raids warlocks and wizards do about equal DPS. 

I'm interested to see if these numbers and see if some adjustments still need to be made to wizards/warlocks for non-raid situations

 

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Well, based on the information given by our collegues, it would appear that the DPS capability of each class is not what will determine your DPS in a group.  IT's more about who can push more damage without pulling agro.  In other words, in a group setting, both classes are capable of doing WAY more DPS than what is prudent or necessary... and the player likely to win on parsers is the player who manages agro the best, regardless if they are wiz or warlock.

 

Me likey.

[goboy]

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Myzyri wrote:
Would you guys mind getting into an XP group together and then going toe to toe on dps? Raids look fine but the simple fact of the matter is if wizards can do 3 times the amount of damage in a xp group then warlocks are going to be less desireable there. No xp group means not getting to 60 means comparisons on raids are pointless.

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Wow, you mean there are actually min/maxers in EQ2?  I play on test and solo mostly, so this attitude surprises me with the ease of leveling and killing group mobs.  Why do people care so much except for choosing someone who plays well.

 

[Myzyri]

There are always min maxers out there....should know better then to think  there arent

[brow27]

I would stop worrying about stuff like parsing out DPS for group and solo encounters.  As Ennis and Ranvier have both stated, it's not about how much DPS you can do, its about aggro management and staying alive.  Whoopdee freaking doo if you can do 1000dps but you get one (or two) shot killed because you got aggro due to your over-nuking.  Obviously if it's so easy to draw hate, it's because we are doing massive damage.  Be more concerned about your overall contribution to the group than just damage.

[tass]

this sounds to great to be true! high nukes, but of course cant be used until the finish or ya die, and both classes fixed to where they should be. It'll be interesting to use the new spell tactics as well.

[Twink]

Just won't be a wizard until we get a snare and can quad kite mobs. :smileywink: The one aspect of EQLive I miss the most. Kiting.. High pressure, death aorund every corner huge payoff in the end. Oh wait, we've got that now except no payoff at the end :smileywink:

[Lamprey_02]

So... not able to post a group parse, just a raid one?

[stepha72]

Just give them a chance.  If you read the entire post Ennis asks Ranvier to group together so that they can get the numbers.   Patience, give them a chance to get together and post the numbers. 

[Fizby]

This is a win/win for me i have always paid attention to aggro management, starting out with low dmg debuffs then dots then at about 60 or so % open up with the M95 (50 cal. sniper rifle aka IC etc.) so nothing changes for me cept i actually do the dmg we are supposed to do now about dang time soe!

[Zyphius]

What, exactly, is meant by "min/max"?

[Noctide]

Thanks for the info!  Now it looks like things are going to be alot more challenging, and I look forward to DOF with open arms.  Hopefully they wont make the same mistake with resists on all the new raid mobs in DOF.  I really miss the fun I had on my 55 wiz in EQ1 and it looks like some of the fun is coming to EQ2 soon.  Thanks OP for your time to come here and post all this info, it is greatly appreciated!

[Sotha]

ennis can you give us anything on raid mob resists? I take it they are less for you to parse so high in the raid.

[Lamprey_02]

I posted earlier in this thread (twice) asking for exp group parses. Someone posted telling me to give the OP time.It's now a few days later... any chance for an exp group parse? Thanks!