Time to come to a realization

Kaleyen · 11-30-2006, 01:43 AM

Hello my name is Liluk and I'm a Paladin on Venekor in a raiding guild. I have never nor will ever be the raid MT for my guild, however I have done offtanking and picked up a mob if our tank has gone down. With that said to my point... I've taken party in many many Crusader and Paladin threads asking for changes, even some small changes that will help our effectiveness on raids. There has been no response from any developer about any of it and with the release of the expansion I don't see us getting anything that will help in that regard. So either we, the people who play the Paladins, need to either evolve with the new role that we are suppose to partake in or move on with a different class. I don't say this to try to [Removed for Content] anyone off, but lets face the facts here, we don't have the tools to be all that effective as a raid tank. To those guilds using a Crusader as their MT, that's great and fine and all, however you will notice an improvement if you swap out that Crusader for a Warrior. Now, then what can we bring to a raid that will ensure us a spot? That's the tricky question, there is no real reason to bring 2 Paladins on a raid unless you're hurting to fill a spot. But the same can be said for a Shadowknight and also you don't really need to have more then 2 warriors on a raid as well. So we have to fill in with what we can do. In end game raiding we really aren't the tanks anymore but more of a healing/somewhat damage dealer that can rez. Healing- We can do this decently enough if we go down the KoS INT line then the Paladin Healing line, the power costs on the EoF healing line seem to be buggy so I hope this gets worked out. Also I think that the Arch Heal should heal for more since the Master II version of Fervent Aide can do a little over 1k (minus a heal crit of course). DPS- Some Pallys can really rock in this category but they really really have to spend the majority of their AA in nothing BUT DPS lines. I'm still dumbfounded as to why the Crusaders don't get any form of double attack when the Warriors and Brawlers do. Still something that I'm waiting to see. Utility- I think SOE wanted us to be some sort of utility class in bringing group benefits like a bard, I'm just failing to really see it. The support lines are well...any stray points I'll put into the group proc but other then the group arament for a PvP Paladin I don't see as anything game breaking. I do however have a beef about our rez, the casting time and the range is really [Removed for Content]'d. A dirge has a faster cast timer rez and a group rez at that, granted it's at reduced health but I'd rather have that then to have to find the corpse I'm trying to rez, stand on top of it then finally cast my rez. My point to all of this? I guess I'm on the brink of just giving up trying to improve my class and just bending over and taking it cause thus far nothing has seemed to work to get the attention from the correct people. The image of a Knight has gone from standing toe to toe with a foe and smiting them down upon the ground to standing back from afar healing the warrior who's doing this and making sure the wizard doesn't blow himself up with amends.

CycoDelic · 11-30-2006, 01:56 AM

Oh Gawd I am so burnt on "Come to Jesus" posts.

It's not just a river in Egypt.

Welcome home, Liluk SMILEY

DarkRanger77 · 11-30-2006, 02:06 AM

Well I know how you feel BUT heres the thing. I have had to come to a realization that paladin tanks suck. I don't care if you are MT for a raid guild I'll guarantee you can't do what my guild does if you are MT for your guild. You cannot keep half the agro a guardian or zerker does unless its aoe agro and you have amends on a warlock. You can't do and now it just seems you weren't meant to do it, so get used to that. So what's left for us if we can't tank? Off tank some stuff when needed, other then that do some dps. Set up your gear with int, str is easy to come by. Adornments....go all out dps with dps gear, theres some very nice dps jewelry in Inner Sanctum now to help also. I raid lead and I now stick myself in a melee dps group with an assassin, dirge with dps aa's, fury, monk, and probably ill throw a ranger in there so he can dps. I turn out nice dps in there with 4, 5, 8 in str, 4, 4, 8 in sta and int. I took my wrath aa line for the new aa's and soon when I get more the Hero line. I do fine dps and am fine with my class. My heals help a lot in raids in addition to the dps I turn out. Honestly with this role I'm fine but some things could be tweaked. I would really like to see them give us some sort of double attack as well, if they won't make us tanks then for crying out loud make us the plate dps class. We are knights, let's see somethign worthy of a knight and not a bunch of half thought out lines.

Kithe

Kaleyen · 11-30-2006, 02:15 AM

It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it!

CycoDelic · 11-30-2006, 02:19 AM

Kaleyen wrote:
It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it!

:smileyvery-happy:

ok, I'll buy that SMILEY How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post? SMILEY

Kaleyen · 11-30-2006, 02:26 AM

CycoDelic wrote:

Kaleyen wrote:It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it!

:smileyvery-happy:

ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post?

But there are at least 10 active threads about that :p

Wulfborne · 11-30-2006, 02:34 AM

Kaleyen wrote:

I'm still dumbfounded as to why the Crusaders don't get any form of double attack when the Warriors and Brawlers do. Still something that I'm waiting to see.

Check out the Kyle Bayle's Dogmatic armor set (Legendary T7). IIRC, once you have a certain number of pieces, you begin to double attack. (And it's crusader only).

~Hawke

CycoDelic · 11-30-2006, 02:37 AM

Kaleyen wrote:

CycoDelic wrote:

Kaleyen wrote:
It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it!

:smileyvery-happy:

ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post?

But there are at least 10 active threads about that :p

True, so from the title I will commend you SMILEY

Scarrlette will NEVER think to look in here and lock this one! SMILEY

CycoDelic · 11-30-2006, 02:38 AM

Wulfborne wrote:

Kaleyen wrote:

I'm still dumbfounded as to why the Crusaders don't get any form of double attack when the Warriors and Brawlers do. Still something that I'm waiting to see.

Check out the Kyle Bayle's Dogmatic armor set (Legendary T7). IIRC, once you have a certain number of pieces, you begin to double attack. (And it's crusader only).

~Hawke

I also saw an adornment that allowed a chance for double attack, but for the life of me can't recall it's name atm

Kaleyen · 11-30-2006, 02:40 AM

1. The armor set isn't good enough for me to want 3 pieces 2. Isn't it something like a 2% chance to double attack?

Gynx20 · 11-30-2006, 02:41 AM

CycoDelic wrote:

Kaleyen wrote:

CycoDelic wrote:

Kaleyen wrote:
It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it!

:smileyvery-happy:

ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post?

But there are at least 10 active threads about that :p

True, so from the title I will commend you Scarrlette will NEVER think to look in here and lock this one!

Shhhhh Scarrlette stalks Paladins

true story

Gynx20 · 11-30-2006, 02:48 AM

But on the OP. I feel the same way Liluk. I have stoped even trying to be MT or wanting to for that matter.

I have proven myself on several raids as the go to guy. Faster heals,faster refresh wards and faster LoH. Healer class I am not, but throwing in a 1400 point ward and my average heal is 1200 to 1400 is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice.

As Liluk stated I have decided to instead of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nonstop about not being able to tank and have started to focus on what I can do and make it better.

And this really only pertains to raids as instances I tank just fine.

Silad · 11-30-2006, 02:58 AM

and Kyle Bayles armor set blows, Thank you

Wulfborne · 11-30-2006, 03:24 AM

Siladin wrote:

and Kyle Bayles armor set blows, Thank you

Siladin Lionsword lv 49 guardian lv 37 weaponsmith ;
Tanulie sweetnsexy lv 8 priest lv 50 alchemist;
Stephannie lv 8 scout lv 36 Provisioner
Being a guild leader isent a job its an honner,

LOL Oh really? You have the set - on your lvl 49 guardian, perhaps?

What 'blows' for one person and their playstyle might be just right for another. I have T7 fabled pieces for almost every single equipment slot, and yet I've found some of the armor to be useful in certain situations. Perhaps you should look at the big picture and consider other people have different goals and playstyles for their characters before spewing forth such "constructive advice".

Besides - he was asking about double attack. /shrug

~Hawke

ChopStix · 11-30-2006, 03:52 AM

i still have my paladin shelved. not trying to annoy anyone in this post or make anyone mad, but you can think the paladin class is good or tough or whatever, i now know the difference

in anticipation to the expansion ,and what i was hearing of the combat adjustment ,i rolled a beserker. I'm glad i did now, i've managed to get him to lvl68 and some decent gear, 9 masters, and the rest adept3.. My paladin sets pretty much the same, 10 masters and the rest adept 3's, my paladin is 70 with draconic deflector, and a relic helmet, the rest is legendary/firebrand/and scalelord stuff.. my beserker has greaves of the bloodhowler and hooluh helmet, and scalelord gauntlets the rest xegonite, and my beserker has 100points less mitigation, better avoidance, and better attack... i farmed labs and lyceum for about a month with my papaldin so i have some raid experience, and my paladin cant tank near as well as my beserker...

after playing a paladin to lvl70, and a beserker to 68 i have to say a beserker is alot more fun to play and definetly nowhere near annoying as playing a paladin= no interrupts with a zerker!!!.. the plate gear seems better suited for guardians and beserkers. and the beserkers, and with the expansion guardians just plain out dps a paladin now.... and guards/beserkers only need 3 stats, str,sta,agility.. and maybe wisdom but not an over abundance of it..

paladins arent worth it... in my opinion the class is totally broken/worthless the way they sit ingame now.. they need more mitigation on thier defensive stance to equal a guardian and zerker, and more dps to be more inline with the guardian and zerker, yes we have a lvl 70 guardian in our guild that can put out very good numbers...

people will always come back with a paladin can heal/ a paladin can rez... the heals arent enough!!!! the ward is good, the rez is good, but, whoop de doo, bring a templar and your better off... if this is a hybrid class make it a hybrid, make our aa's to where we have a choice of what we want to do, like the guardians and zerkers have.... if we had the stamina line as the guardian and zerker have, and the plus to mitigation in our wisdom line like the guards and zerkers have, we would be right in line with them, and being we dont get near the choices in our aa's as the other plate class's we will never be on par with them, or be able to touch them in tankability or dps... i've said this all along but noone seemed to care, or people would just blow it off and say you cant play your class... well i'm hearing the same stuff here, from the people that said i couldnt play the paladin class, so i dont really care :]` i think its funny actually. people were saying oh our dps is getting bumped up with the class specific aa's, well it did, but so did everyone elses, so we're right back where we started...... the least dps of the fighter class's, go figure..

i'm glad i have a high level beserker now, and a high level paladin i can craft with ,because thats about all theyre good for, in my opinion...

CycoDelic · 11-30-2006, 04:08 AM

ChopStix wrote:

i still have my paladin shelved. not trying to annoy anyone in this post or make anyone mad, but you can think the paladin class is good or tough or whatever, i now know the difference

in anticipation to the expansion ,and what i was hearing of the combat adjustment ,i rolled a beserker. I'm glad i did now, i've managed to get him to lvl68 and some decent gear, 9 masters, and the rest adept3.. My paladin sets pretty much the same, 10 masters and the rest adept 3's, my paladin is 70 with draconic deflector, and a relic helmet, the rest is legendary/firebrand/and scalelord stuff.. my beserker has greaves of the bloodhowler and hooluh helmet, and scalelord gauntlets the rest xegonite, and my beserker has 100points less mitigation, better avoidance, and better attack... i farmed labs and lyceum for about a month with my papaldin so i have some raid experience, and my paladin cant tank near as well as my beserker...

after playing a paladin to lvl70, and a beserker to 68 i have to say a beserker is alot more fun to play and definetly nowhere near annoying as playing a paladin= no interrupts with a zerker!!!.. the plate gear seems better suited for guardians and beserkers. and the beserkers, and with the expansion guardians just plain out dps a paladin now.... and guards/beserkers only need 3 stats, str,sta,agility.. and maybe wisdom but not an over abundance of it..

paladins arent worth it... in my opinion the class is totally broken/worthless the way they sit ingame now.. they need more mitigation on thier defensive stance to equal a guardian and zerker, and more dps to be more inline with the guardian and zerker, yes we have a lvl 70 guardian in our guild that can put out very good numbers...

people will always come back with a paladin can heal/ a paladin can rez... the heals arent enough!!!! the ward is good, the rez is good, but, whoop de doo, bring a templar and your better off... if this is a hybrid class make it a hybrid, make our aa's to where we have a choice of what we want to do, like the guardians and zerkers have.... if we had the stamina line as the guardian and zerker have, and the plus to mitigation in our wisdom line like the guards and zerkers have, we would be right in line with them, and being we dont get near the choices in our aa's as the other plate class's we will never be on par with them, or be able to touch them in tankability or dps... i've said this all along but noone seemed to care, or people would just blow it off and say you cant play your class... well i'm hearing the same stuff here, from the people that said i couldnt play the paladin class, so i dont really care :]` i think its funny actually. people were saying oh our dps is getting bumped up with the class specific aa's, well it did, but so did everyone elses, so we're right back where we started...... the least dps of the fighter class's, go figure..

i'm glad i have a high level beserker now, and a high level paladin i can craft with ,because thats about all theyre good for, in my opinion...

Allow me to direct you http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board?board.id=4 here.

I agree Hawke, I have found myself keeping many different items for situations I would normally just plow through in the same ole same ole pre-EoF

Kaleyen · 11-30-2006, 04:26 AM

If the armor was shiny I'd wear a full suit.

Gynx20 · 11-30-2006, 06:19 AM

Kaleyen wrote:
If the armor was shiny I'd wear a full suit.

You looking to get a good licking all over??

Sorry inside joke to those of you that dont know what I am talking about.

PolarBear77 · 11-30-2006, 04:51 PM

WOW plz go look at my post on the other thread b/c im to lazy to repost it ... gg

CottonSteel · 11-30-2006, 06:34 PM

You know I came to the realiztion that, no matter what I say, no matter what I do, they are not going to change the game for me. And even if all level 70 paladins said something about it - they are not going to change it - because there are more then enough level 1 to 69's behind us.So...I decided that I am going to play my Paladin with a new vigor and delight. I may not be the kick butt tank, I may not be the kick butt healer, I may not be the kick butt ranger (my vision of myself - a ranger who wears plate and can heal), but what I am is a toon, that can do it all. I will go anywhere and do anything because that is how I am made. I am made [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] strong and fearless (yeah I took that AA line - nothing like not being feared whenever one else is running). I may not stand as long as a zerker or a guardian, I may not have the dps of a wizard or a ranger class, I may not have the spells of a necro or a something...but I can and do kill what comes across me.I think if you ask most people - they will say they find the Paladin the most kick butt toon in the game. Who knows? (RUMOR! I have heard this game is to go to level 200) maybe when get get to be 100's then 200's we will be the most awesome beings in the game.So in conclusion...it does no good to cry. We are already there, we feel your pain, but brothers and sisters, you are preaching to the choir. So STEP UP and fight and kill and mame and destory it all...for ALL classes in the game are here to support us...not us them. Always remember that when you are in a group...who are they supporting...you.

RaistNA · 11-30-2006, 08:04 PM

The deal that frustrated a lot of paladins, and caused a lot of us to drop and say '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off SoE, thanks for nothing' is the fact that at release we where suppose to be THE SECOND BEST EPIC TANK IN GAME. Now we are so far down the line its not even funny, and keep dropping with each expansion, and keep getting turned into a healer.

Bottom line is if i wanted to play a dps, i woulda rolled a scout or mage

If i wanted to roll a healer i woulda went priest

i wanted to tank, so i listened to SoE and rolled a paladin

Foolish of me to say the least.

I refuse to turn my paladin into something i didnt make him to play. No matter how u spec ur toon, ur going to be sub par to someone else. Its the curse of the paladin. Atleast we use to be able to outtank Sk's. Now comparing our AA's and Fabled set armors, we cant even do that (yes Sk's 3 armor bonus is +30 defense or something crazy like that)

ChopStix · 12-01-2006, 08:39 AM

heh, maybe you should go there and read up. i did and it worked for me :]

MickM · 12-01-2006, 10:08 AM

I was pretty angry when in beta when I saw that fighters in general were getting better taunts and mitigation buffs and paladins got the short end of the aa deal and such. I bashed the devs and flamed my share on beta boards. I thought paladins needed the upgrade as well, but now into this expansion with the combat curves and such mitigation is useless. If you can achieve roughy 62-65% mit self buffed your in really good shape. Hp and avoidance is what you need for this expansion more then anything. With the right augments and Blocking Mastery AA you can boost your overall avoidance 8-10% easy. I believe block is uncontestable so it doesn't matter what level the mob is you will block the same. Raw mitigation is nice, but its rediculous how much you lose to the curve when trying to go straight mit.

Paladins in my opinion don't have hate issues. Our steady flow of hate that we generate is on par with any other fighter. We don't have a lot of snap back aggro abilities, but amends easily fixes that. I can't remember how many times I've had a brig on amends to pick up a memwipe from dispatch alone. I've heard a lot of fighters in general complaining that with all the inceased dps from the other classes it will be harder to hold agro. Amends, again works to our benefit. The more dps the better for us, and all the more hate for us.

This game is constantly changing and old methods and criteria that worked before are quickly outdated. You just have to keep up with the changes and adjust when needed. It's not as bad as a lot of you say it is.

Message Edited by MickMan on 11-30-2006 11:10 PM

Robbpilot · 12-01-2006, 10:14 AM

Let's face a more broad fact that the way they have tanks configured in this game is the main problem. Even if you are a berserker, you end up watching a guardian tank in most raid parties. So, there's an alpha tank class... followed by berserkers who are close, but if they don't tank they have no utility and have to sell out and play with stealing aggro to fill a DPS role. The crusaders do have utility, and I think they are percieved as valuable in more ways than a zerker not tanking. Just the ability to place amends on one of the heavy hitters is a huge value.

Here's how I see things for tanks, and everyone has something to complain about I guess...

Guardian: Low DPS, hard to solo, naturual MT in groups and raids. How many do you need in a group? In a raid?

Berserker: Decent DPS, with situational spikes of high DPS, solos well, natural MT in groups, can MT in raids, but then the guardian has nothing to do, so we can't have that.

Brawlers: Really good DPS, good utility,solos well, can tank in ad-hoc groups as long as the group is not stupid about tactics.

Crusaders: Decent DPS, good utility, solos well, can tank well in groups, and can even tank in groups without a healer if the group is careful. Can play any of the three roles, tank, healer, DD. Probably doesn't get to tank if a guardian or berserker of equal ability and gear is present, but not all players are of equal ability.

But here is the main problem with tanks.... (drumroll)

They are 25% of the classes in the game. They are probably about 25% of the player population. In a group you need only one tank out of six slots... that's less than 25% already. On a raid, you need one MT out of twenty-four slots, with perhaps another tank as MA. So, what happens to all the other guardians and wannabe main tanks in the end game? It ain't pretty. Like a game of musical chairs with too many players and not enough seats.

They should probably have created scenarios where a crusader would make the best MT and others where a beresrker or brawler would too. Perhaps in undead situations, or against AoE mobs... the point is to make all tanks have a niche and be needed. Instead it always falls to the guy with the highest MIT or the most taunts.

SOE kind of messed up on the tanks IMHO.

The other kind of embarrassing situation is that against single target encounters... brigands and swashies just might be better at tanking than some of the tank classes. Let's not even consider the summoners because it hurts that mages could out-tank the tanks.

RaistNA · 12-01-2006, 10:35 PM

Robbpilot they have these...just not enough

I am seeing more and more need for multiple tanks which i like. There are several trash encounters in Innersanctum alone that requires 5 tanks. (only of a few meathods of beating them, so not all gruilds will use 5 btw). U have 3p which require a crusader. Chel'drak requires several fighters (not all for tanking mind u). Im going to respect and get a few more AA's so i can snag the shield block, then see how we handle. But i will say HP now is stupid easy to get.....im at 9k myself, i know of atleast savage who if he adorned a few peices and got a certain ring that has been eluding him (certainly tho, its not from a turtledragon) But on the taning factor, i wont say anything else till i have the shield block.

11-30-2006, 01:43 AM	#1
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	Hello my name is Liluk and I'm a Paladin on Venekor in a raiding guild. I have never nor will ever be the raid MT for my guild, however I have done offtanking and picked up a mob if our tank has gone down. With that said to my point... I've taken party in many many Crusader and Paladin threads asking for changes, even some small changes that will help our effectiveness on raids. There has been no response from any developer about any of it and with the release of the expansion I don't see us getting anything that will help in that regard. So either we, the people who play the Paladins, need to either evolve with the new role that we are suppose to partake in or move on with a different class. I don't say this to try to [Removed for Content] anyone off, but lets face the facts here, we don't have the tools to be all that effective as a raid tank. To those guilds using a Crusader as their MT, that's great and fine and all, however you will notice an improvement if you swap out that Crusader for a Warrior. Now, then what can we bring to a raid that will ensure us a spot? That's the tricky question, there is no real reason to bring 2 Paladins on a raid unless you're hurting to fill a spot. But the same can be said for a Shadowknight and also you don't really need to have more then 2 warriors on a raid as well. So we have to fill in with what we can do. In end game raiding we really aren't the tanks anymore but more of a healing/somewhat damage dealer that can rez. Healing- We can do this decently enough if we go down the KoS INT line then the Paladin Healing line, the power costs on the EoF healing line seem to be buggy so I hope this gets worked out. Also I think that the Arch Heal should heal for more since the Master II version of Fervent Aide can do a little over 1k (minus a heal crit of course). DPS- Some Pallys can really rock in this category but they really really have to spend the majority of their AA in nothing BUT DPS lines. I'm still dumbfounded as to why the Crusaders don't get any form of double attack when the Warriors and Brawlers do. Still something that I'm waiting to see. Utility- I think SOE wanted us to be some sort of utility class in bringing group benefits like a bard, I'm just failing to really see it. The support lines are well...any stray points I'll put into the group proc but other then the group arament for a PvP Paladin I don't see as anything game breaking. I do however have a beef about our rez, the casting time and the range is really [Removed for Content]'d. A dirge has a faster cast timer rez and a group rez at that, granted it's at reduced health but I'd rather have that then to have to find the corpse I'm trying to rez, stand on top of it then finally cast my rez. My point to all of this? I guess I'm on the brink of just giving up trying to improve my class and just bending over and taking it cause thus far nothing has seemed to work to get the attention from the correct people. The image of a Knight has gone from standing toe to toe with a foe and smiting them down upon the ground to standing back from afar healing the warrior who's doing this and making sure the wizard doesn't blow himself up with amends. __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

11-30-2006, 01:56 AM	#2
CycoDelic Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	Oh Gawd I am so burnt on "Come to Jesus" posts. It's not just a river in Egypt. Welcome home, Liluk __________________ Sumgee 90 Paladin

11-30-2006, 02:15 AM	#4
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it! __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

11-30-2006, 02:19 AM	#5
CycoDelic Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	Kaleyen wrote: It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it! :smileyvery-happy: ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post? __________________ Sumgee 90 Paladin

11-30-2006, 02:26 AM	#6
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	CycoDelic wrote: Kaleyen wrote:It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it! :smileyvery-happy: ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post? But there are at least 10 active threads about that :p __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

11-30-2006, 02:06 AM	#3
DarkRanger77 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 36	Well I know how you feel BUT heres the thing. I have had to come to a realization that paladin tanks suck. I don't care if you are MT for a raid guild I'll guarantee you can't do what my guild does if you are MT for your guild. You cannot keep half the agro a guardian or zerker does unless its aoe agro and you have amends on a warlock. You can't do and now it just seems you weren't meant to do it, so get used to that. So what's left for us if we can't tank? Off tank some stuff when needed, other then that do some dps. Set up your gear with int, str is easy to come by. Adornments....go all out dps with dps gear, theres some very nice dps jewelry in Inner Sanctum now to help also. I raid lead and I now stick myself in a melee dps group with an assassin, dirge with dps aa's, fury, monk, and probably ill throw a ranger in there so he can dps. I turn out nice dps in there with 4, 5, 8 in str, 4, 4, 8 in sta and int. I took my wrath aa line for the new aa's and soon when I get more the Hero line. I do fine dps and am fine with my class. My heals help a lot in raids in addition to the dps I turn out. Honestly with this role I'm fine but some things could be tweaked. I would really like to see them give us some sort of double attack as well, if they won't make us tanks then for crying out loud make us the plate dps class. We are knights, let's see somethign worthy of a knight and not a bunch of half thought out lines. Kithe

11-30-2006, 02:34 AM	#7
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	Kaleyen wrote: I'm still dumbfounded as to why the Crusaders don't get any form of double attack when the Warriors and Brawlers do. Still something that I'm waiting to see. Check out the Kyle Bayle's Dogmatic armor set (Legendary T7). IIRC, once you have a certain number of pieces, you begin to double attack. (And it's crusader only). ~Hawke __________________

11-30-2006, 02:37 AM	#8
CycoDelic Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	Kaleyen wrote: CycoDelic wrote: Kaleyen wrote: It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it! :smileyvery-happy: ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post? But there are at least 10 active threads about that :p True, so from the title I will commend you Scarrlette will NEVER think to look in here and lock this one! __________________ Sumgee 90 Paladin

11-30-2006, 02:38 AM	#9
CycoDelic Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	Wulfborne wrote: Kaleyen wrote: I'm still dumbfounded as to why the Crusaders don't get any form of double attack when the Warriors and Brawlers do. Still something that I'm waiting to see. Check out the Kyle Bayle's Dogmatic armor set (Legendary T7). IIRC, once you have a certain number of pieces, you begin to double attack. (And it's crusader only). ~Hawke I also saw an adornment that allowed a chance for double attack, but for the life of me can't recall it's name atm __________________ Sumgee 90 Paladin

11-30-2006, 02:40 AM	#10
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	1. The armor set isn't good enough for me to want 3 pieces 2. Isn't it something like a 2% chance to double attack? __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

11-30-2006, 02:41 AM	#11
Gynx20 Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 22	CycoDelic wrote: Kaleyen wrote: CycoDelic wrote: Kaleyen wrote: It isn't a come to jesus post it's a...wtb a better heal post! Yeah that's it! :smileyvery-happy: ok, I'll buy that How about a "short recast and/or uninteruptable ward" post? But there are at least 10 active threads about that :p True, so from the title I will commend you Scarrlette will NEVER think to look in here and lock this one! Shhhhh Scarrlette stalks Paladins true story

11-30-2006, 02:48 AM	#12
Gynx20 Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 22	But on the OP. I feel the same way Liluk. I have stoped even trying to be MT or wanting to for that matter. I have proven myself on several raids as the go to guy. Faster heals,faster refresh wards and faster LoH. Healer class I am not, but throwing in a 1400 point ward and my average heal is 1200 to 1400 is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice. As Liluk stated I have decided to instead of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nonstop about not being able to tank and have started to focus on what I can do and make it better. And this really only pertains to raids as instances I tank just fine.

11-30-2006, 02:58 AM	#13
Silad Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	and Kyle Bayles armor set blows, Thank you __________________ Siladin Lionsword lv 49 guardian lv 37 weaponsmith ; Tanulie sweetnsexy lv 8 priest lv 50 alchemist; Stephannie lv 8 scout lv 36 Provisioner Being a guild leader isent a job its an honner,

11-30-2006, 03:24 AM	#14
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	Siladin wrote: and Kyle Bayles armor set blows, Thank you Siladin Lionsword lv 49 guardian lv 37 weaponsmith ; Tanulie sweetnsexy lv 8 priest lv 50 alchemist; Stephannie lv 8 scout lv 36 Provisioner Being a guild leader isent a job its an honner, LOL Oh really? You have the set - on your lvl 49 guardian, perhaps? What 'blows' for one person and their playstyle might be just right for another. I have T7 fabled pieces for almost every single equipment slot, and yet I've found some of the armor to be useful in certain situations. Perhaps you should look at the big picture and consider other people have different goals and playstyles for their characters before spewing forth such "constructive advice". Besides - he was asking about double attack. /shrug ~Hawke __________________

11-30-2006, 03:52 AM	#15
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	i still have my paladin shelved. not trying to annoy anyone in this post or make anyone mad, but you can think the paladin class is good or tough or whatever, i now know the difference in anticipation to the expansion ,and what i was hearing of the combat adjustment ,i rolled a beserker. I'm glad i did now, i've managed to get him to lvl68 and some decent gear, 9 masters, and the rest adept3.. My paladin sets pretty much the same, 10 masters and the rest adept 3's, my paladin is 70 with draconic deflector, and a relic helmet, the rest is legendary/firebrand/and scalelord stuff.. my beserker has greaves of the bloodhowler and hooluh helmet, and scalelord gauntlets the rest xegonite, and my beserker has 100points less mitigation, better avoidance, and better attack... i farmed labs and lyceum for about a month with my papaldin so i have some raid experience, and my paladin cant tank near as well as my beserker... after playing a paladin to lvl70, and a beserker to 68 i have to say a beserker is alot more fun to play and definetly nowhere near annoying as playing a paladin= no interrupts with a zerker!!!.. the plate gear seems better suited for guardians and beserkers. and the beserkers, and with the expansion guardians just plain out dps a paladin now.... and guards/beserkers only need 3 stats, str,sta,agility.. and maybe wisdom but not an over abundance of it.. paladins arent worth it... in my opinion the class is totally broken/worthless the way they sit ingame now.. they need more mitigation on thier defensive stance to equal a guardian and zerker, and more dps to be more inline with the guardian and zerker, yes we have a lvl 70 guardian in our guild that can put out very good numbers... people will always come back with a paladin can heal/ a paladin can rez... the heals arent enough!!!! the ward is good, the rez is good, but, whoop de doo, bring a templar and your better off... if this is a hybrid class make it a hybrid, make our aa's to where we have a choice of what we want to do, like the guardians and zerkers have.... if we had the stamina line as the guardian and zerker have, and the plus to mitigation in our wisdom line like the guards and zerkers have, we would be right in line with them, and being we dont get near the choices in our aa's as the other plate class's we will never be on par with them, or be able to touch them in tankability or dps... i've said this all along but noone seemed to care, or people would just blow it off and say you cant play your class... well i'm hearing the same stuff here, from the people that said i couldnt play the paladin class, so i dont really care :]` i think its funny actually. people were saying oh our dps is getting bumped up with the class specific aa's, well it did, but so did everyone elses, so we're right back where we started...... the least dps of the fighter class's, go figure.. i'm glad i have a high level beserker now, and a high level paladin i can craft with ,because thats about all theyre good for, in my opinion...

11-30-2006, 04:08 AM	#16
CycoDelic Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	ChopStix wrote: i still have my paladin shelved. not trying to annoy anyone in this post or make anyone mad, but you can think the paladin class is good or tough or whatever, i now know the difference in anticipation to the expansion ,and what i was hearing of the combat adjustment ,i rolled a beserker. I'm glad i did now, i've managed to get him to lvl68 and some decent gear, 9 masters, and the rest adept3.. My paladin sets pretty much the same, 10 masters and the rest adept 3's, my paladin is 70 with draconic deflector, and a relic helmet, the rest is legendary/firebrand/and scalelord stuff.. my beserker has greaves of the bloodhowler and hooluh helmet, and scalelord gauntlets the rest xegonite, and my beserker has 100points less mitigation, better avoidance, and better attack... i farmed labs and lyceum for about a month with my papaldin so i have some raid experience, and my paladin cant tank near as well as my beserker... after playing a paladin to lvl70, and a beserker to 68 i have to say a beserker is alot more fun to play and definetly nowhere near annoying as playing a paladin= no interrupts with a zerker!!!.. the plate gear seems better suited for guardians and beserkers. and the beserkers, and with the expansion guardians just plain out dps a paladin now.... and guards/beserkers only need 3 stats, str,sta,agility.. and maybe wisdom but not an over abundance of it.. paladins arent worth it... in my opinion the class is totally broken/worthless the way they sit ingame now.. they need more mitigation on thier defensive stance to equal a guardian and zerker, and more dps to be more inline with the guardian and zerker, yes we have a lvl 70 guardian in our guild that can put out very good numbers... people will always come back with a paladin can heal/ a paladin can rez... the heals arent enough!!!! the ward is good, the rez is good, but, whoop de doo, bring a templar and your better off... if this is a hybrid class make it a hybrid, make our aa's to where we have a choice of what we want to do, like the guardians and zerkers have.... if we had the stamina line as the guardian and zerker have, and the plus to mitigation in our wisdom line like the guards and zerkers have, we would be right in line with them, and being we dont get near the choices in our aa's as the other plate class's we will never be on par with them, or be able to touch them in tankability or dps... i've said this all along but noone seemed to care, or people would just blow it off and say you cant play your class... well i'm hearing the same stuff here, from the people that said i couldnt play the paladin class, so i dont really care :]` i think its funny actually. people were saying oh our dps is getting bumped up with the class specific aa's, well it did, but so did everyone elses, so we're right back where we started...... the least dps of the fighter class's, go figure.. i'm glad i have a high level beserker now, and a high level paladin i can craft with ,because thats about all theyre good for, in my opinion... Allow me to direct you http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board?board.id=4 here. I agree Hawke, I have found myself keeping many different items for situations I would normally just plow through in the same ole same ole pre-EoF __________________ Sumgee 90 Paladin

11-30-2006, 04:26 AM	#17
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	If the armor was shiny I'd wear a full suit. __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

11-30-2006, 06:19 AM	#18
Gynx20 Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 22	Kaleyen wrote: If the armor was shiny I'd wear a full suit. You looking to get a good licking all over?? Sorry inside joke to those of you that dont know what I am talking about.

11-30-2006, 04:51 PM	#19
PolarBear77 Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 59	WOW plz go look at my post on the other thread b/c im to lazy to repost it ... gg

11-30-2006, 06:34 PM	#20
CottonSteel Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Diego, CA, USA Posts: 6	You know I came to the realiztion that, no matter what I say, no matter what I do, they are not going to change the game for me. And even if all level 70 paladins said something about it - they are not going to change it - because there are more then enough level 1 to 69's behind us.So...I decided that I am going to play my Paladin with a new vigor and delight. I may not be the kick butt tank, I may not be the kick butt healer, I may not be the kick butt ranger (my vision of myself - a ranger who wears plate and can heal), but what I am is a toon, that can do it all. I will go anywhere and do anything because that is how I am made. I am made [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] strong and fearless (yeah I took that AA line - nothing like not being feared whenever one else is running). I may not stand as long as a zerker or a guardian, I may not have the dps of a wizard or a ranger class, I may not have the spells of a necro or a something...but I can and do kill what comes across me.I think if you ask most people - they will say they find the Paladin the most kick butt toon in the game. Who knows? (RUMOR! I have heard this game is to go to level 200) maybe when get get to be 100's then 200's we will be the most awesome beings in the game.So in conclusion...it does no good to cry. We are already there, we feel your pain, but brothers and sisters, you are preaching to the choir. So STEP UP and fight and kill and mame and destory it all...for ALL classes in the game are here to support us...not us them. Always remember that when you are in a group...who are they supporting...you.

11-30-2006, 08:04 PM	#21
RaistNA Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 118	The deal that frustrated a lot of paladins, and caused a lot of us to drop and say '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off SoE, thanks for nothing' is the fact that at release we where suppose to be THE SECOND BEST EPIC TANK IN GAME. Now we are so far down the line its not even funny, and keep dropping with each expansion, and keep getting turned into a healer. Bottom line is if i wanted to play a dps, i woulda rolled a scout or mage If i wanted to roll a healer i woulda went priest i wanted to tank, so i listened to SoE and rolled a paladin Foolish of me to say the least. I refuse to turn my paladin into something i didnt make him to play. No matter how u spec ur toon, ur going to be sub par to someone else. Its the curse of the paladin. Atleast we use to be able to outtank Sk's. Now comparing our AA's and Fabled set armors, we cant even do that (yes Sk's 3 armor bonus is +30 defense or something crazy like that)

12-01-2006, 08:39 AM	#22
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	heh, maybe you should go there and read up. i did and it worked for me :]

12-01-2006, 10:08 AM	#23
MickM Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 21	I was pretty angry when in beta when I saw that fighters in general were getting better taunts and mitigation buffs and paladins got the short end of the aa deal and such. I bashed the devs and flamed my share on beta boards. I thought paladins needed the upgrade as well, but now into this expansion with the combat curves and such mitigation is useless. If you can achieve roughy 62-65% mit self buffed your in really good shape. Hp and avoidance is what you need for this expansion more then anything. With the right augments and Blocking Mastery AA you can boost your overall avoidance 8-10% easy. I believe block is uncontestable so it doesn't matter what level the mob is you will block the same. Raw mitigation is nice, but its rediculous how much you lose to the curve when trying to go straight mit. Paladins in my opinion don't have hate issues. Our steady flow of hate that we generate is on par with any other fighter. We don't have a lot of snap back aggro abilities, but amends easily fixes that. I can't remember how many times I've had a brig on amends to pick up a memwipe from dispatch alone. I've heard a lot of fighters in general complaining that with all the inceased dps from the other classes it will be harder to hold agro. Amends, again works to our benefit. The more dps the better for us, and all the more hate for us. This game is constantly changing and old methods and criteria that worked before are quickly outdated. You just have to keep up with the changes and adjust when needed. It's not as bad as a lot of you say it is. Message Edited by MickMan on 11-30-2006 11:10 PM __________________

12-01-2006, 10:14 AM	#24
Robbpilot Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Let's face a more broad fact that the way they have tanks configured in this game is the main problem. Even if you are a berserker, you end up watching a guardian tank in most raid parties. So, there's an alpha tank class... followed by berserkers who are close, but if they don't tank they have no utility and have to sell out and play with stealing aggro to fill a DPS role. The crusaders do have utility, and I think they are percieved as valuable in more ways than a zerker not tanking. Just the ability to place amends on one of the heavy hitters is a huge value. Here's how I see things for tanks, and everyone has something to complain about I guess... Guardian: Low DPS, hard to solo, naturual MT in groups and raids. How many do you need in a group? In a raid? Berserker: Decent DPS, with situational spikes of high DPS, solos well, natural MT in groups, can MT in raids, but then the guardian has nothing to do, so we can't have that. Brawlers: Really good DPS, good utility,solos well, can tank in ad-hoc groups as long as the group is not stupid about tactics. Crusaders: Decent DPS, good utility, solos well, can tank well in groups, and can even tank in groups without a healer if the group is careful. Can play any of the three roles, tank, healer, DD. Probably doesn't get to tank if a guardian or berserker of equal ability and gear is present, but not all players are of equal ability. But here is the main problem with tanks.... (drumroll) They are 25% of the classes in the game. They are probably about 25% of the player population. In a group you need only one tank out of six slots... that's less than 25% already. On a raid, you need one MT out of twenty-four slots, with perhaps another tank as MA. So, what happens to all the other guardians and wannabe main tanks in the end game? It ain't pretty. Like a game of musical chairs with too many players and not enough seats. They should probably have created scenarios where a crusader would make the best MT and others where a beresrker or brawler would too. Perhaps in undead situations, or against AoE mobs... the point is to make all tanks have a niche and be needed. Instead it always falls to the guy with the highest MIT or the most taunts. SOE kind of messed up on the tanks IMHO. The other kind of embarrassing situation is that against single target encounters... brigands and swashies just might be better at tanking than some of the tank classes. Let's not even consider the summoners because it hurts that mages could out-tank the tanks.

12-01-2006, 10:35 PM	#25
RaistNA Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 118	Robbpilot they have these...just not enough I am seeing more and more need for multiple tanks which i like. There are several trash encounters in Innersanctum alone that requires 5 tanks. (only of a few meathods of beating them, so not all gruilds will use 5 btw). U have 3p which require a crusader. Chel'drak requires several fighters (not all for tanking mind u). Im going to respect and get a few more AA's so i can snag the shield block, then see how we handle. But i will say HP now is stupid easy to get.....im at 9k myself, i know of atleast savage who if he adorned a few peices and got a certain ring that has been eluding him (certainly tho, its not from a turtledragon) But on the taning factor, i wont say anything else till i have the shield block.