Pally AAs, warning my leet Paint skills may astound you - Page 4

FlintAH · 11-08-2006, 07:42 AM

Lairdragna wrote:OK, I've been just as negative as others here... more so than some. I just don't think it is going to get us anywhere. We're all frustrated, we all wish we could get some "face time" from the powers that be... but turning on each other isn't going to help matters.Can we try to take this in another direction, find some common ground?

Do we both agree we get plenty of hps?power?and have the ability to keep aggro?

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 07:44 AM

HPs are ok, power is insufficient, aggro is situational... think SKs got some much needed aggro love, but now makes us the [Removed for Content] step-child of tank classes for hate generation.

FlintAH · 11-08-2006, 07:49 AM

Lairdragna wrote:HPs are ok, power is insufficient, aggro is situational... think SKs got some much needed aggro love, but now makes us the [Removed for Content] step-child of tank classes for hate generation.

Why do you say power is insufficient? And why aggro situational? I think it would help the discussion if we ignored other tank class comparisons. Instead of pointing fingers at how we arent as good as someone else at something, instead saying what we need to be viable in our own way. Personally I tend to view those arguments the same as the arguments that say we should get safefall and the ability to backstab and mez b/c other classes can do them. Granted we compete w/ each other for spots on a raid but that doesnt mean that there is a direct relationship. A raid leader who looks at a class and sees only dps/mit numbers is missing out on a lot of other benefits classes can give.

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 07:55 AM

I'll make it simple for you, power and aggro control go hand in hand. Hate is comprised of several factors: damage (we have worst dps of any tank class), taunts (our taunts are ok), healing (power intensive, interruptable). To put it simply, generating hate requires us to use power hungry abilities that are subject to interrupts. Our power is based upon strength and wisdom and our damage is based upon intelligence. We need to focus on increasing all five abilities more than any other class (which means we can focus LESS in any particular ones... something has to give in the equation).Several suggestions have been given from lowering power costs (not 5% of a spell), increasing power pool while maintaining current power costs, making our power AND damage based upon two abilities - strength and wisdom (since the damage we do is DIVINE)... why did SKs get a switch to just needing strength and intelligence?I'm glad you are happy with the class changes Flint, but you are really standing alone here.

MeridianR · 11-08-2006, 08:03 AM

FlintAH wrote:
MeridianR wrote:Tnilf when is the last time Insurgence took Hurricanus, 3 Princes, or MO?When you answer, please remember my Paladin right now is on Mistmoore......
Not sure how that is relevant to the conversation at hand. We dont raid outside our raid times and last I checked those mobs dont spawn during our raid times. Just b/c we havent killed something doesnt mean we arent capable of it given a cpl of pulls. Now that I have answered your question how about you stop w/ your attacks and try attacking something relevant instead of wha wha wha.

You said the following: "I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem."I wanted some clarification to that point, which was false........Now onto me attacking something relevant, well I have done that....for god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] months, and have never received a drop of feedback. I have tanked every encounter except Matron and Chel'drak myself, and I have commented as such. With that being said, we are both entitled to our opinion....and I am stressing my opinion that in my tanking experience the disparity is much larger then in your experience.

Message Edited by MeridianR on 11-07-2006 10:05 PM

FlintAH · 11-08-2006, 08:06 AM

Lairdragna wrote:I'll make it simple for you, power and aggro control go hand in hand. Hate is comprised of several factors: damage (we have worst dps of any tank class), taunts (our taunts are ok), healing (power intensive, interruptable). To put it simply, generating hate requires us to use power hungry abilities that are subject to interrupts. Our power is based upon strength and wisdom and our damage is based upon intelligence. We need to focus on increasing all five abilities more than any other class (which means we can focus LESS in any particular ones... something has to give in the equation).Several suggestions have been given from lowering power costs (not 5% of a spell), increasing power pool while maintaining current power costs, making our power AND damage based upon two abilities - strength and wisdom (since the damage we do is DIVINE)... why did SKs get a switch to just needing strength and intelligence?I'm glad you are happy with the class changes Flint, but you are really standing alone here.

The only time I see a mana issue when I am tanking is when the group isnt setup properly. W/ the following setup aggro is no trouble for me and my power stays full, heart+shard+honor of pantrilla+manastone+dirge/coercer mana regen+FT whatever I have means very little power issue tanking:MeAssassinClericShamanDirge/CoercerConj/random high dpserI have more of a power issue when I am in full out heal mode, rather than tanking/dps.

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 08:09 AM

Great, now answer Phov's questions...

FlintAH · 11-08-2006, 08:10 AM

Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions...

I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 08:11 AM

FlintAH wrote:
Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions...
I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.

You're right, one of the top paladins worldwide is asking about your real experience tanking and asking you to back up your assertions, but you see nothing relevant... thank you for clarifying Flint.

FlintAH · 11-08-2006, 08:20 AM

Lairdragna wrote:
FlintAH wrote:
Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions...
I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.
You're right, one of the top paladins worldwide is asking about your real experience tanking and asking you to back up your assertions, but you see nothing relevant... thank you for clarifying Flint.

I have tanked warder, bloodbeat, venekor, tarinax, vyemm, talendor, gorenaire, amorphous etc.... Not sure how 3 contested = a huge disparity in our ability. And just cuz he posts a lot doesnt mean he is the top WW. There is always someone better than you, no matter who you are and what you do. As far as hurricanus, you gotta be kidding right? Princes I have seen a paladin tank all 3 after the brawler and guardian went down and them still win. MO i dont know much about. But if not tanking that one mob makes all my other experience irrelevant then whatever. How are you building your tank group phov? Are you just swapping you into your normal guard setup? Each tank class needs a different setup in order to be fully effective.

Message Edited by FlintAH on 11-07-2006 09:21 PM

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 08:23 AM

Your selective reading is weak. I did not say Phov was the top, I said he was one of the top. Are you arguing that? Are you arguing Itoock is not one of the best? I know Itoock's reputation personally as he is on my server and I have seen him in action. He is a known commodity to me, you are not. Phov is a well respected and known commodity as well. So yes, his opinion and experience carries weight over your's especially when you can not answer the questions he raises. Sorry if you do not see it that way.

MeridianR · 11-08-2006, 08:53 AM

My normal Tank setup is pretty much a normal tank setup, with 1 change.PaladinTemplarDefilerCoercerSwashieWarden / Dirge / Bruiser (depending on people)My OT group setup was normally always:PaladinMysticTemplarBruiserSwashieCoercer.. .and even I don't consider myself the Top Paladin WW, in the Top3 probably - but not the top.

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 08:55 AM

[cartman][expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] IT I DIDN'T SAY PHOV WAS THE TOP[/cartman] :smileywink:

MeridianR · 11-08-2006, 08:58 AM

Lairdragna wrote:[cartman][expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] IT I DIDN'T SAY PHOV WAS THE TOP[/cartman] :smileywink:

It's ok man....give into it, join the Phov fanclub.... SMILEY

Lairdragna · 11-08-2006, 09:01 AM

Sorry dude, charter member and president for life of the Tookie of Nekkie Fan Club!

Wulfborne · 11-08-2006, 09:34 AM

You guys are getting mental...must be getting late where you are. :smileyvery-happy:I do agree with Flint on one thing... I quite honestly do not have power consumption problems (on Live or Beta). Heals/wards were the most power-consuming for me, so I took a lot of the heal enhances in the EoF lines to help offset that. At present with my KoS/EoF lines in Beta I am comfortably content with my healing and DPS abilities. I don't expect to be stellar at either of those alone, so am ok with how they look at present. (Note I did NOT take the smite evil junk though, since just about everything I fight and tried it on says "No targets in range".However, my beef is with the fact that we simply can't take hits as well as I feel we should be able to. Not comparing to any other class - I feel that I have difficulty as a paladin tanking higher-end boss mob types. Should they be difficult? You bet. Should they be straight up un-doable? No... I can handle most heroic content, though in some cases with extreme difficulty (Nizhara). However the real disparity occurs with Epic raid-level encounters. My guild is rather decently equipped, and has worked on every single encounter in the game besides Matron extensively. They aren't clueless or under-equipped. So the raid should not come to a screeching halt when myself or another paladin needs to tank for a raid night, yet we get to a point in the raid where that's exactly what happens.I get the impression from Devs that our wards and heals were meant to be the answer to our lesser health pools and mitigation. (I'm not comparing to other classes, but our current health/mitigation/avoidance are subpar for effective tanking of epic boss mobs). Those things work on paper, in a vacuum, but in real-time play they simply can't make up the difference. Cast times, interrupts, and low heal/ward amounts make these things a large hinderance in our viability as a tank. By the time that 1300 point ward finally casts, we very well could have been hit for that much or more melee damage - let alone if any AEs hit in that time.Additionally, every time we stop dps'ing or taunting to lay down a ward or heal, we are effectively getting zero additional hate on our targets. That's unacceptable when you have a raid full of guildmates cranking out up to and well over one thousand DPS in many cases. We have a very powerful tool to help us maintain aggro - Amends. This is an incredible asset in a group, but in a raid setting, it's not nearly as effective.Bottom line, with no class comparisons, paladins need some more or better aggro generating tools, and either non-interruptable/zero cast time heals and wards, or a set of tools to increase the amount of damage we can absorb if we wish to tank reliably.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul

Caetrel · 11-08-2006, 01:41 PM

Silly arguing top paladin in the game, considering there are prolly 20-50 or more all wearing same basic stuff...some of the better DT pieces, claymore final rewards, darkbough pauldrons etc....hooray itemization. Also prolly quite a few pallies have MT'd Tarinax, HoS, KoS contesteds... Point remains, pallies are disadvantaged tanks, perceived by the majority of players as non-MT material in the first place, and have not MT'd the hardest 2 encounters in the game- Cheldrak and DM.

Faelgalad · 11-08-2006, 08:54 PM

For my part, with the starting of EoF, I will write to German game magazines and show them the problems with the paladins.

So other player starting the game are warned to roll a Paladin.

EoF will kill us. I think seriously about doing treacher to Freeport and become a Shadowknight or play up my bruiser/troubadour.

I like being a Paladin, I know the game a bit. But even now, other classes outmatch Paladins to much.

With Guardians and Berserkers taking the MT-Role for them, it is hard to equip yourself to max level.

The Problems with

- armor not designed for 3-5 Stat enhancement (Strength, Stamina, Wisdom or all five Stats) for Paladins.

- Ill designend KoS AA (Agility Line, broken Immunity skill, no double attack)

- No Taunt-Line in EoF AA

- Improper Damage (arround general 20-30% increase suitable)

- Mitigation/Avoidance problem

are to much in a whole.

The increase of aggro with all classes will kill us!

Rarlin · 11-08-2006, 10:11 PM

Lynassihr wrote:

The increase of aggro with all classes will kill us!

I must humbly disagree with you on this point. Have a % based aggro transfer, this will not affect us "as much" as other classes and may (in certain situations) help us.

Knesh · 11-08-2006, 10:20 PM

Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids

Rarlin · 11-08-2006, 10:37 PM

Knesh wrote:
Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids

This statement I have to humbly AGREE with. SMILEY

Honestly guys, we can solo well, we can group tank well (at least I'm not having any trouble), it's the raid situation that we need just a little help. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that we're screaming for a total revamp of our class, I think the frustration has been due more to the lack of communciation.

Knesh · 11-08-2006, 11:15 PM

Rarlin wrote:

Knesh wrote:
Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids

This statement I have to humbly AGREE with. Honestly guys, we can solo well, we can group tank well (at least I'm not having any trouble), it's the raid situation that we need just a little help. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that we're screaming for a total revamp of our class, I think the frustration has been due more to the lack of communciation.

You are correct we are not asking for a revamp and in fact I love my current paladin setup. I can raid most T7 mobs and not have an issue offtanking and overall assistance is what I like. Knowing that I am there if the MT goes down for whatever reason to pickup the slack until the MT gets rezzed or whatever.

Now SKS will be the ultimate Offtank with there increase in taunts lower recast and mit buffs with parry and better lifetaps. They already generate a lot of agro because they are high INT tanks. This is a win win for them.

All paladins gets are better healing which lets face it during a raid if we have to self heal our selves and taunt and do combat arts to generate the same agro = stupid.

SKS got some excellent EOF love while paladins are the red headed crusader step-child. Balance is a hard thing to do but balancing is NOT making 1 class better than the other in 1 expansion and then making the other class better in next.

There is no reason why SKS or paladins can't be on par with different abilites, but making 3 seperate EoF Aa's with dmg increasers then 1 with healing and ZERO with mit bonuses or taunt bonuses = total crap when paladins are tank and healer hybird - meaning we have TWO paths to travel in - TANK or HEALING. If Alternate achievement is available and designed to further enhance our character.

Sedi · 11-09-2006, 12:26 AM

Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg

ONE Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony!

Message Edited by Sedila on 11-08-2006 11:27 AM

Lairdragna · 11-09-2006, 04:05 AM

Sedila wrote:

Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg

ONE Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony!

Message Edited by Sedila on 11-08-2006 11:27 AM

/throws hands in the air and walks awayI give up! My guild leader feels so bad for what is happening to our class that he actually asked if I wanted to betray and he would get me SK useable armor and adept 3s. He doesn't even see the point of me carrying on with the class.His words... "bud, if you want to raid in the expansion you will need to be in the group with the melee dps to give them your mit buff and damage procs."So that's it, I no longer have a spot on a raid other than buffing a melee dps group, group healing them, and giving them damage procs.Tell me again how I'm a TANK?

lavasoul · 11-09-2006, 04:32 AM

Haha, sorry guys I'm sitting here and I just can't help but have to laugh when I get into the paladin forum.:smileyhappy:

There is a big storm coming and I'm not sure if we live thru this one.

ChopStix · 11-09-2006, 04:49 AM

lavasoul wrote:

Haha, sorry guys I'm sitting here and I just can't help but have to laugh when I get into the paladin forum.:smileyhappy:

There is a big storm coming and I'm not sure if we live thru this one.

yep, i seen this as soon as the nda was lifted .. the paladin class will no longer be remotely needed on a raid, a single group maybe but doubtful, with the population of guardians and zerkers and sk's why would anyone want a paladin to tank in a single group?

ChopStix · 11-09-2006, 05:03 AM

Lairdragna wrote:

Sedila wrote:

Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg

ONE Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony!

Message Edited by Sedila on 11-08-2006 11:27 AM

/throws hands in the air and walks away

I give up! My guild leader feels so bad for what is happening to our class that he actually asked if I wanted to betray and he would get me SK useable armor and adept 3s. He doesn't even see the point of me carrying on with the class.

His words... "bud, if you want to raid in the expansion you will need to be in the group with the melee dps to give them your mit buff and damage procs."

So that's it, I no longer have a spot on a raid other than buffing a melee dps group, group healing them, and giving them damage procs.

Tell me again how I'm a TANK?

that might be a good option for you, at least you have that option..... i'm on vox/pvp my guild is in queynos, so i dont even have that option.... I'm tankful :] that i rolled a beserker in anticipation of eof lessening the paladin class even more and i think i was correct assuming it, as it stands... I wouldnt betray right off if i were in your position, but soe needs to announce its plans with the paladin class, and explain what they are doing and thinking , why the paladin class is getting gimped as tanks moreso than before, and why we arent getting mit and hate aa's, so people wont waste thier time on a paladin as a tanking roll and in some way they need to repay the ones that have played a paladin for a while, because we are the ones that have wasted so much time on a useless class even more now than before.. The paladins definetly dont fit in a fighter class now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we need input from developers and we are getting nothing, I'm really getting tired of the wait and see soe is feeding this class, in turn we keep getting nerfed to non exsistence....

if soe's intentions are, of doing away with this class alltogether, they're doing a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job... why dont they just delete the class alltogether and not even offer the choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kenji11 · 11-09-2006, 06:16 AM

As Itoock said, too many threads on the same thing makes posting, and reffering to posts a pain, anyway, I remember somebody proposed something about zero casting time heals. Honestly thats not a bad idea, make an AA that lowers the cost of heals by 10% per rank (50% at rank 5), and reduces casting time by 20% per rank (zero cast time at 5). This would affect all heals (single, ward, sacrament, group). This way when we are tanking, and get hit we can instantly recover hp, rather than casting, then getting interrupted, then recasting, and once it finishes, we are already at 100%, so we wasted power, less it was the ward.

Hmm, now that I think about it some more, why not just have a "Hero" AA that reduces the power cost on EVERYTHING by say 30-40% at rank 5, and makes ALL casting times zero. With that, we can instantly react to damage thereby reducting the amount of damage we essentially take, while getting more aggro for ourselves, and can last longer due to a reduced power cost.

As far as unbalancing us compared to healers, hmm, well I could be general, but thats gonna take to long, so im gonna do numbers.

Fervent Aid m1: 864-1056 with 5s recast and no cast time: 192 hp/s

Devotion m1: 1376 with 15s recast: 91.73 hp/s

Prayer of Consecration m1: 876-1071 with 7.5s recast: 129.8 hp/s per target

Reverent Sacrament m1: 2099-2566 with 300s recast: 7.78 hp/s

So with no casting time, if we spammed all our heals as they came up, and all were used to thier utmost ( no 1k heal on a person down only 300 hp), we would achieve 421.31 hp/s. In contrast, a templar using a master of Glorious Intercession (to its maximum extent, target is hit 5 times within 8 seconds and the heal goes off for its full effect) can put out 301 hp/s. Add in Dire Intercession for another 224 hp/s and we are easily outhealed by only 2 spells, so I wouldnt say that we are going to be imposing on healer territory.

(If anyone is curious as to how I get the templar numbers, I took the min heal+max heal, divided by 2, multiplied by the number of uses, and divided by the cast+recast time)

Lairdragna · 11-09-2006, 07:27 AM

Instacast and the ability to lower recasts would be HUGE! This would go a long way to making me happier.

Faelgalad · 11-09-2006, 09:16 AM

Fellow Citizens, fellow Paladins,

Not a single person with any responsibilty for this will look into this thread. You can write whatever you want.

I guess we can agree on that. They let us debate here as an outflow for frustration.

If we want to change something, there are two ways. None of these have to do with an Forum.

Write peditions en masse, stating that the design of the Paladin class doesn't fit to the official description from SOE.

Secondly (and IMHO the better way) start writing game magazines, who certainly like to hear bad news, bad news is interesting news. Stating there that SOE

let a whole class die and wither away. A neglected class is no good promotion when it becomes public, remember the Everquest-WoW comparision. With many people in fantasy genre comparing Paladins to their AD&D and Diablo2 counterparts (where they could stand up easily against fighters/barbarian by different abilities, I loved my Hammerdim, Shockdim), many people will find it interesting to read that SOE-Paladins are neglected.

Btw. my guild (biggest on Innovation-Server) was shockes as I declared that I would wait 4-6 weeks after EoF and then become Traitor and beeing a Shadowknight.

Thanks SOE for wasting my time that I invested in my most beloved charakter. Changing her concept! I want to be more than a mitigation-battery for an Shadowknight! More than just a third class tank.

11-08-2006, 08:03 AM	#95
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	FlintAH wrote: MeridianR wrote:Tnilf when is the last time Insurgence took Hurricanus, 3 Princes, or MO?When you answer, please remember my Paladin right now is on Mistmoore...... Not sure how that is relevant to the conversation at hand. We dont raid outside our raid times and last I checked those mobs dont spawn during our raid times. Just b/c we havent killed something doesnt mean we arent capable of it given a cpl of pulls. Now that I have answered your question how about you stop w/ your attacks and try attacking something relevant instead of wha wha wha. You said the following: "I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem."I wanted some clarification to that point, which was false........Now onto me attacking something relevant, well I have done that....for god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] months, and have never received a drop of feedback. I have tanked every encounter except Matron and Chel'drak myself, and I have commented as such. With that being said, we are both entitled to our opinion....and I am stressing my opinion that in my tanking experience the disparity is much larger then in your experience. Message Edited by MeridianR on 11-07-2006 10:05 PM __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

11-08-2006, 08:11 AM	#99
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	FlintAH wrote: Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions... I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion. You're right, one of the top paladins worldwide is asking about your real experience tanking and asking you to back up your assertions, but you see nothing relevant... thank you for clarifying Flint.

11-08-2006, 08:20 AM	#100
FlintAH Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 382	Lairdragna wrote: FlintAH wrote: Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions... I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion. You're right, one of the top paladins worldwide is asking about your real experience tanking and asking you to back up your assertions, but you see nothing relevant... thank you for clarifying Flint. I have tanked warder, bloodbeat, venekor, tarinax, vyemm, talendor, gorenaire, amorphous etc.... Not sure how 3 contested = a huge disparity in our ability. And just cuz he posts a lot doesnt mean he is the top WW. There is always someone better than you, no matter who you are and what you do. As far as hurricanus, you gotta be kidding right? Princes I have seen a paladin tank all 3 after the brawler and guardian went down and them still win. MO i dont know much about. But if not tanking that one mob makes all my other experience irrelevant then whatever. How are you building your tank group phov? Are you just swapping you into your normal guard setup? Each tank class needs a different setup in order to be fully effective. Message Edited by FlintAH on 11-07-2006 09:21 PM

11-08-2006, 08:53 AM	#102
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	My normal Tank setup is pretty much a normal tank setup, with 1 change.PaladinTemplarDefilerCoercerSwashieWarden / Dirge / Bruiser (depending on people)My OT group setup was normally always:PaladinMysticTemplarBruiserSwashieCoercer.. .and even I don't consider myself the Top Paladin WW, in the Top3 probably - but not the top. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

11-08-2006, 08:58 AM	#104
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Lairdragna wrote:[cartman][expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] IT I DIDN'T SAY PHOV WAS THE TOP[/cartman] :smileywink: It's ok man....give into it, join the Phov fanclub.... __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

11-08-2006, 07:42 AM	#91
FlintAH Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 382	Lairdragna wrote:OK, I've been just as negative as others here... more so than some. I just don't think it is going to get us anywhere. We're all frustrated, we all wish we could get some "face time" from the powers that be... but turning on each other isn't going to help matters.Can we try to take this in another direction, find some common ground? Do we both agree we get plenty of hps?power?and have the ability to keep aggro?

11-08-2006, 07:44 AM	#92
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	HPs are ok, power is insufficient, aggro is situational... think SKs got some much needed aggro love, but now makes us the [Removed for Content] step-child of tank classes for hate generation.

11-08-2006, 07:49 AM	#93
FlintAH Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 382	Lairdragna wrote:HPs are ok, power is insufficient, aggro is situational... think SKs got some much needed aggro love, but now makes us the [Removed for Content] step-child of tank classes for hate generation. Why do you say power is insufficient? And why aggro situational? I think it would help the discussion if we ignored other tank class comparisons. Instead of pointing fingers at how we arent as good as someone else at something, instead saying what we need to be viable in our own way. Personally I tend to view those arguments the same as the arguments that say we should get safefall and the ability to backstab and mez b/c other classes can do them. Granted we compete w/ each other for spots on a raid but that doesnt mean that there is a direct relationship. A raid leader who looks at a class and sees only dps/mit numbers is missing out on a lot of other benefits classes can give.

11-08-2006, 07:55 AM	#94
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	I'll make it simple for you, power and aggro control go hand in hand. Hate is comprised of several factors: damage (we have worst dps of any tank class), taunts (our taunts are ok), healing (power intensive, interruptable). To put it simply, generating hate requires us to use power hungry abilities that are subject to interrupts. Our power is based upon strength and wisdom and our damage is based upon intelligence. We need to focus on increasing all five abilities more than any other class (which means we can focus LESS in any particular ones... something has to give in the equation).Several suggestions have been given from lowering power costs (not 5% of a spell), increasing power pool while maintaining current power costs, making our power AND damage based upon two abilities - strength and wisdom (since the damage we do is DIVINE)... why did SKs get a switch to just needing strength and intelligence?I'm glad you are happy with the class changes Flint, but you are really standing alone here.

11-08-2006, 08:06 AM	#96
FlintAH Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 382	Lairdragna wrote:I'll make it simple for you, power and aggro control go hand in hand. Hate is comprised of several factors: damage (we have worst dps of any tank class), taunts (our taunts are ok), healing (power intensive, interruptable). To put it simply, generating hate requires us to use power hungry abilities that are subject to interrupts. Our power is based upon strength and wisdom and our damage is based upon intelligence. We need to focus on increasing all five abilities more than any other class (which means we can focus LESS in any particular ones... something has to give in the equation).Several suggestions have been given from lowering power costs (not 5% of a spell), increasing power pool while maintaining current power costs, making our power AND damage based upon two abilities - strength and wisdom (since the damage we do is DIVINE)... why did SKs get a switch to just needing strength and intelligence?I'm glad you are happy with the class changes Flint, but you are really standing alone here. The only time I see a mana issue when I am tanking is when the group isnt setup properly. W/ the following setup aggro is no trouble for me and my power stays full, heart+shard+honor of pantrilla+manastone+dirge/coercer mana regen+FT whatever I have means very little power issue tanking:MeAssassinClericShamanDirge/CoercerConj/random high dpserI have more of a power issue when I am in full out heal mode, rather than tanking/dps.

11-08-2006, 08:09 AM	#97
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	Great, now answer Phov's questions...

11-08-2006, 08:10 AM	#98
FlintAH Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 382	Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions... I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.

11-08-2006, 08:23 AM	#101
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	Your selective reading is weak. I did not say Phov was the top, I said he was one of the top. Are you arguing that? Are you arguing Itoock is not one of the best? I know Itoock's reputation personally as he is on my server and I have seen him in action. He is a known commodity to me, you are not. Phov is a well respected and known commodity as well. So yes, his opinion and experience carries weight over your's especially when you can not answer the questions he raises. Sorry if you do not see it that way.

11-08-2006, 08:55 AM	#103
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	[cartman][expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] IT I DIDN'T SAY PHOV WAS THE TOP[/cartman] :smileywink:

11-08-2006, 09:01 AM	#105
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	Sorry dude, charter member and president for life of the Tookie of Nekkie Fan Club!

11-08-2006, 09:34 AM	#106
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	You guys are getting mental...must be getting late where you are. :smileyvery-happy:I do agree with Flint on one thing... I quite honestly do not have power consumption problems (on Live or Beta). Heals/wards were the most power-consuming for me, so I took a lot of the heal enhances in the EoF lines to help offset that. At present with my KoS/EoF lines in Beta I am comfortably content with my healing and DPS abilities. I don't expect to be stellar at either of those alone, so am ok with how they look at present. (Note I did NOT take the smite evil junk though, since just about everything I fight and tried it on says "No targets in range".However, my beef is with the fact that we simply can't take hits as well as I feel we should be able to. Not comparing to any other class - I feel that I have difficulty as a paladin tanking higher-end boss mob types. Should they be difficult? You bet. Should they be straight up un-doable? No... I can handle most heroic content, though in some cases with extreme difficulty (Nizhara). However the real disparity occurs with Epic raid-level encounters. My guild is rather decently equipped, and has worked on every single encounter in the game besides Matron extensively. They aren't clueless or under-equipped. So the raid should not come to a screeching halt when myself or another paladin needs to tank for a raid night, yet we get to a point in the raid where that's exactly what happens.I get the impression from Devs that our wards and heals were meant to be the answer to our lesser health pools and mitigation. (I'm not comparing to other classes, but our current health/mitigation/avoidance are subpar for effective tanking of epic boss mobs). Those things work on paper, in a vacuum, but in real-time play they simply can't make up the difference. Cast times, interrupts, and low heal/ward amounts make these things a large hinderance in our viability as a tank. By the time that 1300 point ward finally casts, we very well could have been hit for that much or more melee damage - let alone if any AEs hit in that time.Additionally, every time we stop dps'ing or taunting to lay down a ward or heal, we are effectively getting zero additional hate on our targets. That's unacceptable when you have a raid full of guildmates cranking out up to and well over one thousand DPS in many cases. We have a very powerful tool to help us maintain aggro - Amends. This is an incredible asset in a group, but in a raid setting, it's not nearly as effective.Bottom line, with no class comparisons, paladins need some more or better aggro generating tools, and either non-interruptable/zero cast time heals and wards, or a set of tools to increase the amount of damage we can absorb if we wish to tank reliably.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul __________________

11-08-2006, 01:41 PM	#107
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	Silly arguing top paladin in the game, considering there are prolly 20-50 or more all wearing same basic stuff...some of the better DT pieces, claymore final rewards, darkbough pauldrons etc....hooray itemization. Also prolly quite a few pallies have MT'd Tarinax, HoS, KoS contesteds... Point remains, pallies are disadvantaged tanks, perceived by the majority of players as non-MT material in the first place, and have not MT'd the hardest 2 encounters in the game- Cheldrak and DM. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

11-08-2006, 08:54 PM	#108
Faelgalad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 353	For my part, with the starting of EoF, I will write to German game magazines and show them the problems with the paladins. So other player starting the game are warned to roll a Paladin. EoF will kill us. I think seriously about doing treacher to Freeport and become a Shadowknight or play up my bruiser/troubadour. I like being a Paladin, I know the game a bit. But even now, other classes outmatch Paladins to much. With Guardians and Berserkers taking the MT-Role for them, it is hard to equip yourself to max level. The Problems with - armor not designed for 3-5 Stat enhancement (Strength, Stamina, Wisdom or all five Stats) for Paladins. - Ill designend KoS AA (Agility Line, broken Immunity skill, no double attack) - No Taunt-Line in EoF AA - Improper Damage (arround general 20-30% increase suitable) - Mitigation/Avoidance problem are to much in a whole. The increase of aggro with all classes will kill us!

11-08-2006, 10:11 PM	#109
Rarlin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	Lynassihr wrote: The increase of aggro with all classes will kill us! I must humbly disagree with you on this point. Have a % based aggro transfer, this will not affect us "as much" as other classes and may (in certain situations) help us.

11-08-2006, 10:20 PM	#110
Knesh Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 215	Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids __________________

11-08-2006, 10:37 PM	#111
Rarlin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	Knesh wrote: Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids This statement I have to humbly AGREE with. Honestly guys, we can solo well, we can group tank well (at least I'm not having any trouble), it's the raid situation that we need just a little help. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that we're screaming for a total revamp of our class, I think the frustration has been due more to the lack of communciation.

11-08-2006, 11:15 PM	#112
Knesh Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 215	Rarlin wrote: Knesh wrote: Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids This statement I have to humbly AGREE with. Honestly guys, we can solo well, we can group tank well (at least I'm not having any trouble), it's the raid situation that we need just a little help. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that we're screaming for a total revamp of our class, I think the frustration has been due more to the lack of communciation. You are correct we are not asking for a revamp and in fact I love my current paladin setup. I can raid most T7 mobs and not have an issue offtanking and overall assistance is what I like. Knowing that I am there if the MT goes down for whatever reason to pickup the slack until the MT gets rezzed or whatever. Now SKS will be the ultimate Offtank with there increase in taunts lower recast and mit buffs with parry and better lifetaps. They already generate a lot of agro because they are high INT tanks. This is a win win for them. All paladins gets are better healing which lets face it during a raid if we have to self heal our selves and taunt and do combat arts to generate the same agro = stupid. SKS got some excellent EOF love while paladins are the red headed crusader step-child. Balance is a hard thing to do but balancing is NOT making 1 class better than the other in 1 expansion and then making the other class better in next. There is no reason why SKS or paladins can't be on par with different abilites, but making 3 seperate EoF Aa's with dmg increasers then 1 with healing and ZERO with mit bonuses or taunt bonuses = total crap when paladins are tank and healer hybird - meaning we have TWO paths to travel in - TANK or HEALING. If Alternate achievement is available and designed to further enhance our character. __________________

11-09-2006, 12:26 AM	#113
Sedi General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 53	Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say... http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg ONE Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony! Message Edited by Sedila on 11-08-2006 11:27 AM

11-09-2006, 04:05 AM	#114
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	Sedila wrote: Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say... http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg ONE Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony! Message Edited by Sedila on 11-08-2006 11:27 AM /throws hands in the air and walks awayI give up! My guild leader feels so bad for what is happening to our class that he actually asked if I wanted to betray and he would get me SK useable armor and adept 3s. He doesn't even see the point of me carrying on with the class.His words... "bud, if you want to raid in the expansion you will need to be in the group with the melee dps to give them your mit buff and damage procs."So that's it, I no longer have a spot on a raid other than buffing a melee dps group, group healing them, and giving them damage procs.Tell me again how I'm a TANK?

11-09-2006, 04:32 AM	#115
lavasoul Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 116	Haha, sorry guys I'm sitting here and I just can't help but have to laugh when I get into the paladin forum.:smileyhappy: There is a big storm coming and I'm not sure if we live thru this one. __________________

11-09-2006, 04:49 AM	#116
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	lavasoul wrote: Haha, sorry guys I'm sitting here and I just can't help but have to laugh when I get into the paladin forum.:smileyhappy: There is a big storm coming and I'm not sure if we live thru this one. yep, i seen this as soon as the nda was lifted .. the paladin class will no longer be remotely needed on a raid, a single group maybe but doubtful, with the population of guardians and zerkers and sk's why would anyone want a paladin to tank in a single group?

11-09-2006, 05:03 AM	#117
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	Lairdragna wrote: Sedila wrote: Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say... http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg ONE Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony! Message Edited by Sedila on 11-08-2006 11:27 AM /throws hands in the air and walks away I give up! My guild leader feels so bad for what is happening to our class that he actually asked if I wanted to betray and he would get me SK useable armor and adept 3s. He doesn't even see the point of me carrying on with the class. His words... "bud, if you want to raid in the expansion you will need to be in the group with the melee dps to give them your mit buff and damage procs." So that's it, I no longer have a spot on a raid other than buffing a melee dps group, group healing them, and giving them damage procs. Tell me again how I'm a TANK? that might be a good option for you, at least you have that option..... i'm on vox/pvp my guild is in queynos, so i dont even have that option.... I'm tankful :] that i rolled a beserker in anticipation of eof lessening the paladin class even more and i think i was correct assuming it, as it stands... I wouldnt betray right off if i were in your position, but soe needs to announce its plans with the paladin class, and explain what they are doing and thinking , why the paladin class is getting gimped as tanks moreso than before, and why we arent getting mit and hate aa's, so people wont waste thier time on a paladin as a tanking roll and in some way they need to repay the ones that have played a paladin for a while, because we are the ones that have wasted so much time on a useless class even more now than before.. The paladins definetly dont fit in a fighter class now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we need input from developers and we are getting nothing, I'm really getting tired of the wait and see soe is feeding this class, in turn we keep getting nerfed to non exsistence.... if soe's intentions are, of doing away with this class alltogether, they're doing a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job... why dont they just delete the class alltogether and not even offer the choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

11-09-2006, 06:16 AM	#118
Kenji11 General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 45	As Itoock said, too many threads on the same thing makes posting, and reffering to posts a pain, anyway, I remember somebody proposed something about zero casting time heals. Honestly thats not a bad idea, make an AA that lowers the cost of heals by 10% per rank (50% at rank 5), and reduces casting time by 20% per rank (zero cast time at 5). This would affect all heals (single, ward, sacrament, group). This way when we are tanking, and get hit we can instantly recover hp, rather than casting, then getting interrupted, then recasting, and once it finishes, we are already at 100%, so we wasted power, less it was the ward. Hmm, now that I think about it some more, why not just have a "Hero" AA that reduces the power cost on EVERYTHING by say 30-40% at rank 5, and makes ALL casting times zero. With that, we can instantly react to damage thereby reducting the amount of damage we essentially take, while getting more aggro for ourselves, and can last longer due to a reduced power cost. As far as unbalancing us compared to healers, hmm, well I could be general, but thats gonna take to long, so im gonna do numbers. Fervent Aid m1: 864-1056 with 5s recast and no cast time: 192 hp/s Devotion m1: 1376 with 15s recast: 91.73 hp/s Prayer of Consecration m1: 876-1071 with 7.5s recast: 129.8 hp/s per target Reverent Sacrament m1: 2099-2566 with 300s recast: 7.78 hp/s So with no casting time, if we spammed all our heals as they came up, and all were used to thier utmost ( no 1k heal on a person down only 300 hp), we would achieve 421.31 hp/s. In contrast, a templar using a master of Glorious Intercession (to its maximum extent, target is hit 5 times within 8 seconds and the heal goes off for its full effect) can put out 301 hp/s. Add in Dire Intercession for another 224 hp/s and we are easily outhealed by only 2 spells, so I wouldnt say that we are going to be imposing on healer territory. (If anyone is curious as to how I get the templar numbers, I took the min heal+max heal, divided by 2, multiplied by the number of uses, and divided by the cast+recast time)

11-09-2006, 07:27 AM	#119
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	Instacast and the ability to lower recasts would be HUGE! This would go a long way to making me happier.

11-09-2006, 09:16 AM	#120
Faelgalad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 353	Fellow Citizens, fellow Paladins, Not a single person with any responsibilty for this will look into this thread. You can write whatever you want. I guess we can agree on that. They let us debate here as an outflow for frustration. If we want to change something, there are two ways. None of these have to do with an Forum. Write peditions en masse, stating that the design of the Paladin class doesn't fit to the official description from SOE. Secondly (and IMHO the better way) start writing game magazines, who certainly like to hear bad news, bad news is interesting news. Stating there that SOE let a whole class die and wither away. A neglected class is no good promotion when it becomes public, remember the Everquest-WoW comparision. With many people in fantasy genre comparing Paladins to their AD&D and Diablo2 counterparts (where they could stand up easily against fighters/barbarian by different abilities, I loved my Hammerdim, Shockdim), many people will find it interesting to read that SOE-Paladins are neglected. Btw. my guild (biggest on Innovation-Server) was shockes as I declared that I would wait 4-6 weeks after EoF and then become Traitor and beeing a Shadowknight. Thanks SOE for wasting my time that I invested in my most beloved charakter. Changing her concept! I want to be more than a mitigation-battery for an Shadowknight! More than just a third class tank.