Paladins seem to be weak.. - Page 2

ChopStix · 07-27-2006, 06:37 PM

i have 2 guildmates that are conjurors,they both said they got nerfed pretty hard a few months back..

Vathranen · 07-30-2006, 03:32 PM

I'll back you up on the crappy Paladin in PvP issue. I'm 68 and my gear is far from great, but it's serviceable. I'm close to what you all prescribed as necessary to be called "tank". The issue isn't so much class imbalances as is it mechanics of the game. As someone already said - this game wasn't made for PvP. Classes can't be balanced. It was my fault (and yours) for choosing the wrong class for PvP. Here is a list of reasons why Paladin is a poor choice for PvP:

1) Low damage output. This is because Paladins get healing. I've actually been main healer for my group several times as many healers dropped out in the high levels to reroll as scouts. You can't have high defense, decent healing, and high damage in one package. (Though you can have tracking, safe fall, stealth, high defense, and high offense in one package but that's another can of worms)

2) Resist rates in Tier 7. PvP in tier 7 is broken. The gear you start getting at level 60 has such high resists on it that many mages drop out of PvP and reroll as scouts. The one class that a Paladin excells against is a non-pet mage. Sadly I haven't seen one in a very long time. Doubled with this is the fact that half of the Paladin's offense comes in the form of spells. Fortunately nobody bothers with divine resistance because the only classes that use it are the lowest DPS ones.

3) Damage scaling (offense vs. defense). When I played PvE I noticed that at level 50+ the mobs' hitpoints started increasing exponentially (seemed like) but so did the offense of the DPS classes. They tried to tone this down for PvP but it didn't work. The high damage hits didn't get toned down enough and the low damage hits stayed the same. You won't be one-shot by Decapitate, but it'll get you close enough to red that you have no hope of healing back up and winning. My ward at Adept 3 is 1300 and I crit it almost all the time from the INT AA line. 1300 is 1 combat art from an assassin or bruiser and two from any other class. It takes longer to cast than it does to punch through.

4) Heals lowered for PvP. In PvP heals got lowered as well as damage output. However, they overdid it. Heals are reduced by more than 20% (I don't know if ward also got reduced, mine has never lasted long enough to really tell). Two healers can't keep a group alive if the attackers have more than one scout and one mage. And there's always more than one scout. Couple this issue with the long cast times on heals in addition to the huge animation that says, "I'm casting a heal, come interrupt me!" healing in PvP is somewhat of an oxymoron.

4a) Without getting into a Shadowknight vs. Paladin discussion one things needs to be said here. Lay on Hands got toned down. Harm Touch did not. Harm Touch also gets a bonus from INT and says in its description "Very difficult to resist."

5) Interrupts. 2/3 of the Paladin's arts are spells of either healing or damage. Both have animations that are very easy to see and hear and have casting times that are quite long enough to stop. With the new changes to stuns you can be stunned an entire fight, never even getting a single spell off. This happens to me often with the plethora of bruisers out there.

6) Taunting capability. All other fighters' auto-taunt buff works in PvP. Monks can force their target to fight them exclusively with Dragon Stance. Berserkers and Guardians proc a taunt nearly every time they're hit. The Paladin's Amends and the Shadowknight's Tainted Caress line (I think that's what it's called) are both broken for PvP. Tainted Caress does nothing at all and Amends gives the target a 5% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when struck in PvP. Worthless. Normal taunts last 3 seconds no matter how upgraded and get resisted terribly in tier 7.

To sum up, I agree with ChopStix's sentiment but maybe not his delivery. I'm not discussing 1:1 PvP as a Paladin as that's just foolish. But even in a group I'd rather be any other class as I'd feel like I could contribute something other than being an extra target. As ChopStix says - you'll spend an entire fight just trying in vain to heal yourself and your group but it's really an uphill battle. On one hand you want to taunt and try to save your group but on the other you know it won't last long, and it'll only mean you can't do anything yourself while you get the beatdown. If there's another tank such as a berserker then you're freed up to do a bit more but I honestly feel any other class would be better suited to any role that a Paladin could do.

I think that the source of the problem is that the Paladin is one of the only true hybrid classes and neither tanking nor healing work very well in PvP so when you water both down and put them in one class you've got a lame duck.

Our only saving grace is Doom Judgement. That attack is so good in PvP if it lands.

EDIT: I also want to add that it's not too bad until post 50. Most classes work pretty well until then, but after 50 the damage scales up so fast that there's really no reason to play anything other than a DPS class.

Message Edited by Vathranen on 07-30-2006 04:43 AM

Wulfborne · 07-30-2006, 07:03 PM

Vathranen wrote:

Our only saving grace is Doom Judgement. That attack is so good in PvP if it lands.

Message Edited by Vathranen on 07-30-2006 04:43 AM

Just curious... Why is this spell good in comparison to any of our others?~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul

Vathranen · 07-30-2006, 07:10 PM

I have been told that maybe I focus a little too much on the negative, so here are a few ideas that I think would help make the Paladin a little better in PvP, give the class some individuality, but not overpower the class.

1) The first AA point needs to be changed from +20 focus when under 50% health to immune to stun/interrupt effects when under 50% health. The AA as it is works fine for PvE where the mob's stuns and interrupts are sporadic, but it does nothing at all to help against Cheap Shot or one of the many kicks Bruisers get.

2) The last AA point in the Wisdom line should be a group immunity to Fear effects in a radius around the Paladin. This would emulate the ability that Paladins get in 3rd ed. D&D and certainly fits in well with the class. This would be a very class defining ability as there are many Freeport classes that get fear and would be thwarted with a Paladin in the group. As it is now I don't think anybody has taken or will take the power.

3) Amends needs to be changed to 100% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when the target is struck. IE - an Assassin comes up and Decapitates the Mage but then gets taunted onto the Paladin. The mage may still die but if he doesn't then the Assassin is dealing with the Paladin instead and can't finish the job.

4) Give us back our nuke on the run. This ability was in no way overpowered and should never have been taken away. Warriors and Brawlers have a taunt that interrupts, is instant cast, ranged, and can even be used while stunned. All of these classes also get ranged auto attack which is immensely important in PvP when you're trying to chase down a runner. The Grizzfazzle bow does quite a lot of damage just from ranged auto attack; more than Decree/Brimstone.

5) Detect Evil. This is something that Paladins have had in many games throughout the genre. I'm thinking it could be like the racial vision types except it wouldn't alter anything visually. You'd just get a red glowing outline on any Freeporter that you see whether they're in stealth, invis, or just standing around. I'm thinking it would look like players look when stealthed except in red instead of gray. It could be on a 1 minute recast timer with a duration of maybe 20 seconds, or a 5 minute recast with duration 1 minute. This would give Paladins some kind of a use and a defense when out alone and actually fits quite well with the class. Obviously shadowknights would likewise get a Detect Good ability. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't templars get this as a fun spell? Does anyone know if it works in PvP? Templars are more rare than spongy loam on Venekor or I'd ask one myself. I think this would fall under the "PvP Only" category as it wouldn't affect anything in PvE but would be class defining in PvP.

Notice I'm not asking for any extra damage as I don't feel that's what Paladins do. I think we could use a little bump in potency but these issues are far more glaring and preventing the class from performing as well as it should against other classes or when compared to peer classes.

EDIT: The reason Doom Judgement is so powerful is because it removes beneficial buffs from targets. I try to use it when my enemies are bunched up at the beginning of the fight to remove as many of their buffs as I can. This can and does turn the tide of a fight because missing some crucial buffs can be crippling to a group. I have mine Adept III and it removes 112 levels of buffs (I think).

Message Edited by Vathranen on 07-30-2006 08:31 AM

Kaleyen · 07-31-2006, 06:25 PM

Vath, from your 4a.) thingNO FREAKIN kidding. I got HT'd for over 6k last night from a 70th SK (I'm 63 atm), my "Lay Hands" at this level (I think it was 62 was the new form?) at Master I form only does a little over 4k...what's up with that?

Vathranen · 08-01-2006, 04:01 AM

The lay on hands you have at 62 is the best you'll get. SMILEY

ChopStix · 08-01-2006, 05:38 AM

i see you guys are starting to see what i'm talking about...

i have a 69 paladin, and all we can do in pvp is take the damage, and that is it, just absorb all the damage then die!!!

and SOE doesnt give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!! they just want more of your money..

Message Edited by ChopStix on 07-31-2006 06:40 PM

Vathranen · 08-01-2006, 04:08 PM

Sadly I think Paladin is very low on the list of PvP things to be looked at. Mostly because there are so few of us. On Venekor I know of 3 level 70 Paladins - Vysha, Midnights, and Balios. I see Balios still posts here but I haven't seen Vysha out and about for a very long time and as far as I know Midnights quit (He made a Ranger alt, not sure if he's still around in that form). Then there's me, Rhone, 4th down. Then on Vox I see you guys have one 70 Paladin.

No I don't see us getting any attention anytime soon.

Magnis · 08-01-2006, 10:56 PM

Well, I've only taken my pally as far as 19, with masterCrafted everything, and masters and adeptIIIs they do really good, IMO... but dont know if its the same in hier levels.:smileyindifferent:

lonethius · 08-02-2006, 12:08 AM

Chopstix, sorry to break it to you buddy, but paladin is THE STRONGEST pvp plate tank. I play one on nagafen. I can 1v1 any other plate class and win. even SKs. we are the only class who does a good amount of damage with divine, therefore no one focuses on buffing it up, so our spells/CAs hit for a lot. also although our healing takes a lot of mana it is brutal against other tanks. There are tanks out there who can beat me, but it is due to them knowing their class well and normally myself effing up :smileytongue: SKs might do a little more damage with their combat arts/spells, but that is the way it is ment to be. Their mana pool draws from STR and INT, which provides their spells with extra damage. However, our mana pool draws from STR and WIS, which gives us significantly more resists. only thing that i wish i had that an SK has is evac (which makes zero or maybe even negative sense)In groups and raid PVP we are also highly strong. we can taunt with the best of them and the extra group healing is KEY, also brimstone wrecks people. we actually have one of the best pvp spells in the game as well. Sigil of heroism. Castigate also allows paladins to do massive amounts of damage and cure which other tanks cant do. I also prefer LOH to HT any day. I'd rather fully heal my group's mage/healer from red than knock one of theirs down to half health. All of you who feel palis are [Removed for Content] in pvp I felt the same was as you for a long time. But now I feel like if you learn your class, get good gear, and have the right AAs you can be amazing in pvp.

Message Edited by lonethius on 08-01-2006 01:18 PM

Turb · 08-02-2006, 01:38 AM

Hi,In answer to the original question on stats, I don't have any fabled gear (yet!) and am also L67.With def stance on I have 6200hp, around 3900 mit (55.5% vs L67), 50.5% avoid, with STR and STA over 300 and WIS around 370. A ranged item with +mit helps, there's a few crafted ones that have that.For the avoid, I recently got Grizzlefazzle's shield and that boosted me very nicely as it has a great rating and +6 DEF and +5 parry. I think I gained like 5% avoid over the crimson rock targe I had before that.I have cuirass of protection too. A good leg armour is empowered scaleguard greaves at 403 + 120 vs all physical, so 523 in all, as well as +20 str/sta. The chitin rings are nice +mit too.Good luck SMILEY

Doylen · 08-02-2006, 07:16 AM

ChopStix wrote:

I or being the shadowknight can evac i think we should get one also being we're suppose to be somewhat of a mirror class of the sk...

I guess you didn't keep in mind that we can heal, SK's can't.

We can Rez, SK's can't

We have a ward against damage, SK's has a ward that gives health

We have a lay hands, SK's has a Harm Touch

Personally I think it'd be pretty boring if we were a mirror class to the SK. and it wouldn't be much of a point having both...

Kaleyen · 08-02-2006, 09:08 PM

Vathranen wrote:

Sadly I think Paladin is very low on the list of PvP things to be looked at. Mostly because there are so few of us. On Venekor I know of 3 level 70 Paladins - Vysha, Midnights, and Balios. I see Balios still posts here but I haven't seen Vysha out and about for a very long time and as far as I know Midnights quit (He made a Ranger alt, not sure if he's still around in that form). Then there's me, Rhone, 4th down. Then on Vox I see you guys have one 70 Paladin.

No I don't see us getting any attention anytime soon.

Well there's Atuc at 66, then myself at 64 (almost 65) for Pallys on Vene

enjoilab · 08-03-2006, 04:15 AM

seriously at lvl 70 pvp gets alot easier with nicer resist gear, i kill lvl 70 SKs quickly if they dont evac, work on resists and you are a god in pvp, the divine aura i just respeced to gives me time when dispatch is on me to cure it with castigate.

ive killed some necros before if i put on my resist gear and throw on my 2 hander, imo divine aura is the best pvp aa you can possibly get

on a lighter note its kinda funny when a raiding t7 sk hts you for only 1.8k and you dont even have to cast lohs to kill him

but for god sake if you are a pvp pally GET RESISTS!!!!!!! they will save your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sooo much!!!!

holypaladin28 · 08-04-2006, 12:17 AM

YAH PALLY POWER. we rock heals wards damage rez MIT avoid RESIST we get the best of everything

Kaleyen · 08-07-2006, 07:10 PM

I'm having a hard time balancing my resists vs my health. Cold and Heat seem to be my weakpoints and everytime I switch out a piece of armor for more resists I lose about 75-100HP.

Vathranen · 08-07-2006, 07:12 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about cold/heat Liluk. On our server there's only two wizards that I know of - Riddicks and Gromph. Otherwise it's all poison & disease.

Kaleyen · 08-07-2006, 07:35 PM

Vathranen wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about cold/heat Liluk. On our server there's only two wizards that I know of - Riddicks and Gromph. Otherwise it's all poison & disease.

2 Wizzys on our side or theirs? I know that we have 1 70 Wizzy (Mags) might have another, but usually the Freepers have 3x the amounts we do. My Mental/Magic/Divine/Poison are my highest, my disease is not bad but dang my cold/heat hit below 2k when I'm self buffed. And it's not like I'm in crappy gear either. My armor and weapons are all T7, only my helm and forearms are the T7 mastercrafted (I have a shiny Pally helm in my bags for when I get 67). I didn't invest in the T7 mastercrafted jewelry because I bought the T6 mastercrafted and for the price I don't think it's worth it. I did get the dark chitin ring from the den, so that's my only T7 jewelery, I would like to get the light chitin to go with that. But if I get that I'll lose 18STA + 40HP which will bring me down to the 6k hp unbuffed mark.To give you an idea at 64/65 I was at 6.5/6.6k HP self buffed I'm now 66 and I'm in the 6.2/6.3k unbuffed HP after getting dropped T7 armor that has more resists then stamina/hp.

Vathranen · 08-08-2006, 04:17 AM

Two wizards on their side. You don't have to worry about Qeynos wizards - they aren't going to be launching ice nova at you SMILEY

Rocksthemic · 08-08-2006, 06:45 AM

Have a question for you PvP'ers out there. Once you are exile, can you group with anyone else that is exiled without giving up your class? Like could you potentially have an exiled Paladin and an Exiled SK in the same group? Thundaarr Unrest

Vathranen · 08-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Yeah that's correct. Keep in mind that if you're not grouped then it's open season for PvP - exiles can fight each other too.

falconx3 · 08-13-2006, 09:39 AM

I dinged 70 pally the other day on Venekor. So I guess I can speak a bit on the Pvp Aspect. I can effectively solo necros. Hands down when they were orange I was killing them and now even reliced out necros I can win against. Yes we are not the most effective class for solo PvP but as stated before divine resists are overlooked. Toss out that group taunt on anyone (mines master 2) take out 1k of the targets divine resits (or encounter) and boom you gave yourself a chance at winning. The biggest thing I see in pally PvP is the spamming of our skills. Waste of effort really, the key is to space out our kicks and interupts and wait for the right time. We have a decent selection of stuns and interupts, why not use them. Now I dont find a ton of solo fights, most of the times ifa scout doesnt get a good opening shot on me they evac, so I cant tell. Groups is where I feel at home. I dont try to do damage that isnt my job. I spam taunts (maybe turning on consecrate) and heal/ward myself and the group to help the healers(this is assuming it is a fair fight). Let the DPS classes kill. Its been stated before we are a tank with heals. We gave up DPS for the ability to heal. Does it suck to not be able to kill all that well solo? Yes, so if you dont like it betray or reroll. My group since I was a tiny pally has consisted of normally 2 pallies, have we proved the theory(well some people say this at least) that pallies are useless for PvP. Yes Liluk and I have. Its always fun being that helpless pally in the freeps eyes and then being able to spank them.

Vathranen · 08-13-2006, 10:30 AM

Well grats Atuc. It is good that most Paladins enjoy their class in PvP. It can be an effective class, I've never denied that. But I stand by my original claim that any other class could contribute more to a group in PvP except maybe an Illusionist.

That said, my opinion means nothing since I've given up. EQ2 holds no more surprises for me so it's back to waiting for the next big thing.

Kaleyen · 08-14-2006, 09:31 AM

FalconX333 wrote: My group since I was a tiny pally has consisted of normally 2 pallies, have we proved the theory(well some people say this at least) that pallies are useless for PvP. Yes Liluk and I have. Its always fun being that helpless pally in the freeps eyes and then being able to spank them.

Haha, he speaks the truth, the two pally group in PvP and PvE rocks!

lavasoul · 08-14-2006, 01:27 PM

I wouldn't say the class is weak. Sure we get interrupted a lot and I would love to see our spells and heal have shorter cast time. It's all in the gear and how you play the crusader class. I used to play on a blue server then later play on a pvp server and loving it. Our class isn't played by many cause our damage output doesn't look that attractive for pvp but that doesn't mean we suck.

Crusaders is one of the best tanks to have in a group or even to solo for that matter. A lot may see crusader as a [Removed for Content] tank but I'll go ahead and let them think that way. You won't know if a class is good until you can play it well. I got friends that jumps from one class to another cause people say that certain class is good.

ChopStix · 08-23-2006, 01:01 AM

as youve seen my other posts, i've rolled a beserker, lvl 13 at the moment.... wish i would have chose a beserker to begin with... i can honetly say after rolling a beserker the paladin class is weak.

i can already tell the difference in dps.. rolling through even conned monsters and up too 2 lvls higher than me... and this beserker isnt even tweaked out with gear yet... cant wait to get him in some steel armor and tweaked out jewelry and a good 1 hander... as far as AA points,compared to a paladin's, its a wash, the beserkers aa's are far better than a paladins....

in regards to this post, you can say what you want about paladins being good or bad, if you like them or not.. i now know the difference, i'll still play my paladin, unless someone wants to buy him :] but for now the lvl 13 beserker is my main, and the lvl 70 pally is my alt... i wanted dps, and now i'm getting it, by switching to a beserker...

as far as comparing the two class's, i will say this, the paladin class needs a SEVERE makeover, in dps and also AA choices! its that simple!!

Vathranen · 08-23-2006, 11:20 AM

I did the same thing about a year ago ChopS. I got my zerker up to 44 and it's a completely different class. The DPS of the zerker is pretty high. It's not quite what a monk's DPS is, but if the zerker is tanking he'll come out on top pretty often through riposting - that's the zerker specialty. However, I didn't play a zerker on PvP. I tried a guardian for a short time and I saw what the Paladin is missing - an auto taunt like the other fighters have that works in PvP. That's a game breaker for me as a Paladin. If our Amends did something in PvP that would go a long way toward fixing the class.

The problem with comparing zerker and Paladin is that it's apples and oranges. Paladin is a hybrid healer class, so you're going to lose out somewhere. In this case Paladins lose out on DPS. They balance out because the Paladin can outlast about anything while the zerker or monk can beat something down before it beats them down.

What I think you'll enjoy most is your ability to shrug off tons of damage with your mitigation buffs, interrupt on taunt, ranged auto attack, auto-taunt when hit, not being interrupted yourself (no spells), and using combat arts while moving. These are the things that I found as glaring flaws in the crusader class.

ChopStix · 08-23-2006, 04:18 PM

funny you should mention the attacks while on the move, that is the very first thing i noticed, and liked very much.. i wish i woulda rolled a zerker from the get go, believe it suits me better for my style of play.. i'm a little too aggresive for a paladin i think... as i've played a paladin for a while, the style of play i accepted was to try to keep some range at first, then go in too attack, which works very well.. but the beserkers mitigation buffs are just simply awesome, and the buckler aa line is very impressive..

Vathranen · 08-24-2006, 02:32 AM

Be sure to pull with your ranged auto attack to get your skill up. From what I understand the Grizzfazzle bow on ranged auto attack does around 1k from a zerker or a guardian. That's more than I can do on the go as a Paladin.

ChopStix · 08-24-2006, 04:38 PM

haha, i have a bow equipped now, just need a quiver and arrows... and i'm having a blast with tihs lvl 15 serker... one funny thing that happened the other night in the caves..

i was lvl 13, and for some reason a lvl 16 asassin come up next to me while i was fighting a nasty gnoll, so i finshed the gnoll, and waited to heal up, looked to make sure he didnt have help while listening to the funny little ratonga laugh, then i laid into him, and smoked him, beat him down, he tried to run and zone under the waterfall, the last thing that happened was i smoked him with my imbued club and its proc went off and he was dead.. i was simply amazed and i dont think a lvl 13 pally could've come close to beating him...

dont get me wrong i still love my pally,and what they stand for , i just think they need a severe overhaul and some lovin from soe developers.. thier dps is, well, just lacking alot... maybe a new spell called crusade or courage added into the mix for some more dps and aggro..and some real aa options that stand out like a couple of the beserker aa lines do..

07-30-2006, 07:03 PM	#33
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	Vathranen wrote: Our only saving grace is Doom Judgement. That attack is so good in PvP if it lands. Message Edited by Vathranen on 07-30-2006 04:43 AM Just curious... Why is this spell good in comparison to any of our others?~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul __________________

07-31-2006, 06:25 PM	#35
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	Vath, from your 4a.) thingNO FREAKIN kidding. I got HT'd for over 6k last night from a 70th SK (I'm 63 atm), my "Lay Hands" at this level (I think it was 62 was the new form?) at Master I form only does a little over 4k...what's up with that? __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

08-02-2006, 01:38 AM	#41
Turb General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,117	Hi,In answer to the original question on stats, I don't have any fabled gear (yet!) and am also L67.With def stance on I have 6200hp, around 3900 mit (55.5% vs L67), 50.5% avoid, with STR and STA over 300 and WIS around 370. A ranged item with +mit helps, there's a few crafted ones that have that.For the avoid, I recently got Grizzlefazzle's shield and that boosted me very nicely as it has a great rating and +6 DEF and +5 parry. I think I gained like 5% avoid over the crimson rock targe I had before that.I have cuirass of protection too. A good leg armour is empowered scaleguard greaves at 403 + 120 vs all physical, so 523 in all, as well as +20 str/sta. The chitin rings are nice +mit too.Good luck __________________

08-02-2006, 07:16 AM	#42
Doylen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 40	ChopStix wrote: I or being the shadowknight can evac i think we should get one also being we're suppose to be somewhat of a mirror class of the sk... I guess you didn't keep in mind that we can heal, SK's can't. We can Rez, SK's can't We have a ward against damage, SK's has a ward that gives health We have a lay hands, SK's has a Harm Touch Personally I think it'd be pretty boring if we were a mirror class to the SK. and it wouldn't be much of a point having both...

08-02-2006, 09:08 PM	#43
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	Vathranen wrote: Sadly I think Paladin is very low on the list of PvP things to be looked at. Mostly because there are so few of us. On Venekor I know of 3 level 70 Paladins - Vysha, Midnights, and Balios. I see Balios still posts here but I haven't seen Vysha out and about for a very long time and as far as I know Midnights quit (He made a Ranger alt, not sure if he's still around in that form). Then there's me, Rhone, 4th down. Then on Vox I see you guys have one 70 Paladin. No I don't see us getting any attention anytime soon. Well there's Atuc at 66, then myself at 64 (almost 65) for Pallys on Vene __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

07-27-2006, 06:37 PM	#31
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	i have 2 guildmates that are conjurors,they both said they got nerfed pretty hard a few months back..

07-30-2006, 03:32 PM	#32
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	I'll back you up on the crappy Paladin in PvP issue. I'm 68 and my gear is far from great, but it's serviceable. I'm close to what you all prescribed as necessary to be called "tank". The issue isn't so much class imbalances as is it mechanics of the game. As someone already said - this game wasn't made for PvP. Classes can't be balanced. It was my fault (and yours) for choosing the wrong class for PvP. Here is a list of reasons why Paladin is a poor choice for PvP: 1) Low damage output. This is because Paladins get healing. I've actually been main healer for my group several times as many healers dropped out in the high levels to reroll as scouts. You can't have high defense, decent healing, and high damage in one package. (Though you can have tracking, safe fall, stealth, high defense, and high offense in one package but that's another can of worms) 2) Resist rates in Tier 7. PvP in tier 7 is broken. The gear you start getting at level 60 has such high resists on it that many mages drop out of PvP and reroll as scouts. The one class that a Paladin excells against is a non-pet mage. Sadly I haven't seen one in a very long time. Doubled with this is the fact that half of the Paladin's offense comes in the form of spells. Fortunately nobody bothers with divine resistance because the only classes that use it are the lowest DPS ones. 3) Damage scaling (offense vs. defense). When I played PvE I noticed that at level 50+ the mobs' hitpoints started increasing exponentially (seemed like) but so did the offense of the DPS classes. They tried to tone this down for PvP but it didn't work. The high damage hits didn't get toned down enough and the low damage hits stayed the same. You won't be one-shot by Decapitate, but it'll get you close enough to red that you have no hope of healing back up and winning. My ward at Adept 3 is 1300 and I crit it almost all the time from the INT AA line. 1300 is 1 combat art from an assassin or bruiser and two from any other class. It takes longer to cast than it does to punch through. 4) Heals lowered for PvP. In PvP heals got lowered as well as damage output. However, they overdid it. Heals are reduced by more than 20% (I don't know if ward also got reduced, mine has never lasted long enough to really tell). Two healers can't keep a group alive if the attackers have more than one scout and one mage. And there's always more than one scout. Couple this issue with the long cast times on heals in addition to the huge animation that says, "I'm casting a heal, come interrupt me!" healing in PvP is somewhat of an oxymoron. 4a) Without getting into a Shadowknight vs. Paladin discussion one things needs to be said here. Lay on Hands got toned down. Harm Touch did not. Harm Touch also gets a bonus from INT and says in its description "Very difficult to resist." 5) Interrupts. 2/3 of the Paladin's arts are spells of either healing or damage. Both have animations that are very easy to see and hear and have casting times that are quite long enough to stop. With the new changes to stuns you can be stunned an entire fight, never even getting a single spell off. This happens to me often with the plethora of bruisers out there. 6) Taunting capability. All other fighters' auto-taunt buff works in PvP. Monks can force their target to fight them exclusively with Dragon Stance. Berserkers and Guardians proc a taunt nearly every time they're hit. The Paladin's Amends and the Shadowknight's Tainted Caress line (I think that's what it's called) are both broken for PvP. Tainted Caress does nothing at all and Amends gives the target a 5% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when struck in PvP. Worthless. Normal taunts last 3 seconds no matter how upgraded and get resisted terribly in tier 7. To sum up, I agree with ChopStix's sentiment but maybe not his delivery. I'm not discussing 1:1 PvP as a Paladin as that's just foolish. But even in a group I'd rather be any other class as I'd feel like I could contribute something other than being an extra target. As ChopStix says - you'll spend an entire fight just trying in vain to heal yourself and your group but it's really an uphill battle. On one hand you want to taunt and try to save your group but on the other you know it won't last long, and it'll only mean you can't do anything yourself while you get the beatdown. If there's another tank such as a berserker then you're freed up to do a bit more but I honestly feel any other class would be better suited to any role that a Paladin could do. I think that the source of the problem is that the Paladin is one of the only true hybrid classes and neither tanking nor healing work very well in PvP so when you water both down and put them in one class you've got a lame duck. Our only saving grace is Doom Judgement. That attack is so good in PvP if it lands. EDIT: I also want to add that it's not too bad until post 50. Most classes work pretty well until then, but after 50 the damage scales up so fast that there's really no reason to play anything other than a DPS class. Message Edited by Vathranen on 07-30-2006 04:43 AM

07-30-2006, 07:10 PM	#34
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	I have been told that maybe I focus a little too much on the negative, so here are a few ideas that I think would help make the Paladin a little better in PvP, give the class some individuality, but not overpower the class. 1) The first AA point needs to be changed from +20 focus when under 50% health to immune to stun/interrupt effects when under 50% health. The AA as it is works fine for PvE where the mob's stuns and interrupts are sporadic, but it does nothing at all to help against Cheap Shot or one of the many kicks Bruisers get. 2) The last AA point in the Wisdom line should be a group immunity to Fear effects in a radius around the Paladin. This would emulate the ability that Paladins get in 3rd ed. D&D and certainly fits in well with the class. This would be a very class defining ability as there are many Freeport classes that get fear and would be thwarted with a Paladin in the group. As it is now I don't think anybody has taken or will take the power. 3) Amends needs to be changed to 100% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when the target is struck. IE - an Assassin comes up and Decapitates the Mage but then gets taunted onto the Paladin. The mage may still die but if he doesn't then the Assassin is dealing with the Paladin instead and can't finish the job. 4) Give us back our nuke on the run. This ability was in no way overpowered and should never have been taken away. Warriors and Brawlers have a taunt that interrupts, is instant cast, ranged, and can even be used while stunned. All of these classes also get ranged auto attack which is immensely important in PvP when you're trying to chase down a runner. The Grizzfazzle bow does quite a lot of damage just from ranged auto attack; more than Decree/Brimstone. 5) Detect Evil. This is something that Paladins have had in many games throughout the genre. I'm thinking it could be like the racial vision types except it wouldn't alter anything visually. You'd just get a red glowing outline on any Freeporter that you see whether they're in stealth, invis, or just standing around. I'm thinking it would look like players look when stealthed except in red instead of gray. It could be on a 1 minute recast timer with a duration of maybe 20 seconds, or a 5 minute recast with duration 1 minute. This would give Paladins some kind of a use and a defense when out alone and actually fits quite well with the class. Obviously shadowknights would likewise get a Detect Good ability. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't templars get this as a fun spell? Does anyone know if it works in PvP? Templars are more rare than spongy loam on Venekor or I'd ask one myself. I think this would fall under the "PvP Only" category as it wouldn't affect anything in PvE but would be class defining in PvP. Notice I'm not asking for any extra damage as I don't feel that's what Paladins do. I think we could use a little bump in potency but these issues are far more glaring and preventing the class from performing as well as it should against other classes or when compared to peer classes. EDIT: The reason Doom Judgement is so powerful is because it removes beneficial buffs from targets. I try to use it when my enemies are bunched up at the beginning of the fight to remove as many of their buffs as I can. This can and does turn the tide of a fight because missing some crucial buffs can be crippling to a group. I have mine Adept III and it removes 112 levels of buffs (I think). Message Edited by Vathranen on 07-30-2006 08:31 AM

08-01-2006, 04:01 AM	#36
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	The lay on hands you have at 62 is the best you'll get.

08-01-2006, 05:38 AM	#37
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	i see you guys are starting to see what i'm talking about... i have a 69 paladin, and all we can do in pvp is take the damage, and that is it, just absorb all the damage then die!!! and SOE doesnt give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!! they just want more of your money.. Message Edited by ChopStix on 07-31-2006 06:40 PM

08-01-2006, 04:08 PM	#38
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	Sadly I think Paladin is very low on the list of PvP things to be looked at. Mostly because there are so few of us. On Venekor I know of 3 level 70 Paladins - Vysha, Midnights, and Balios. I see Balios still posts here but I haven't seen Vysha out and about for a very long time and as far as I know Midnights quit (He made a Ranger alt, not sure if he's still around in that form). Then there's me, Rhone, 4th down. Then on Vox I see you guys have one 70 Paladin. No I don't see us getting any attention anytime soon.

08-01-2006, 10:56 PM	#39
Magnis Server: Nagafen Guild: Volcan Rank: Captain Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 361	Well, I've only taken my pally as far as 19, with masterCrafted everything, and masters and adeptIIIs they do really good, IMO... but dont know if its the same in hier levels.:smileyindifferent:

08-02-2006, 12:08 AM	#40
lonethius Lord Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 4	Chopstix, sorry to break it to you buddy, but paladin is THE STRONGEST pvp plate tank. I play one on nagafen. I can 1v1 any other plate class and win. even SKs. we are the only class who does a good amount of damage with divine, therefore no one focuses on buffing it up, so our spells/CAs hit for a lot. also although our healing takes a lot of mana it is brutal against other tanks. There are tanks out there who can beat me, but it is due to them knowing their class well and normally myself effing up :smileytongue: SKs might do a little more damage with their combat arts/spells, but that is the way it is ment to be. Their mana pool draws from STR and INT, which provides their spells with extra damage. However, our mana pool draws from STR and WIS, which gives us significantly more resists. only thing that i wish i had that an SK has is evac (which makes zero or maybe even negative sense)In groups and raid PVP we are also highly strong. we can taunt with the best of them and the extra group healing is KEY, also brimstone wrecks people. we actually have one of the best pvp spells in the game as well. Sigil of heroism. Castigate also allows paladins to do massive amounts of damage and cure which other tanks cant do. I also prefer LOH to HT any day. I'd rather fully heal my group's mage/healer from red than knock one of theirs down to half health. All of you who feel palis are [Removed for Content] in pvp I felt the same was as you for a long time. But now I feel like if you learn your class, get good gear, and have the right AAs you can be amazing in pvp. Message Edited by lonethius on 08-01-2006 01:18 PM

08-03-2006, 04:15 AM	#44
enjoilab General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 115	seriously at lvl 70 pvp gets alot easier with nicer resist gear, i kill lvl 70 SKs quickly if they dont evac, work on resists and you are a god in pvp, the divine aura i just respeced to gives me time when dispatch is on me to cure it with castigate. ive killed some necros before if i put on my resist gear and throw on my 2 hander, imo divine aura is the best pvp aa you can possibly get on a lighter note its kinda funny when a raiding t7 sk hts you for only 1.8k and you dont even have to cast lohs to kill him but for god sake if you are a pvp pally GET RESISTS!!!!!!! they will save your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sooo much!!!!

08-04-2006, 12:17 AM	#45
holypaladin28 General Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 255	YAH PALLY POWER. we rock heals wards damage rez MIT avoid RESIST we get the best of everything

08-07-2006, 07:10 PM	#46
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	I'm having a hard time balancing my resists vs my health. Cold and Heat seem to be my weakpoints and everytime I switch out a piece of armor for more resists I lose about 75-100HP. __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

08-07-2006, 07:12 PM	#47
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	I wouldn't worry too much about cold/heat Liluk. On our server there's only two wizards that I know of - Riddicks and Gromph. Otherwise it's all poison & disease.

08-07-2006, 07:35 PM	#48
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	Vathranen wrote: I wouldn't worry too much about cold/heat Liluk. On our server there's only two wizards that I know of - Riddicks and Gromph. Otherwise it's all poison & disease. 2 Wizzys on our side or theirs? I know that we have 1 70 Wizzy (Mags) might have another, but usually the Freepers have 3x the amounts we do. My Mental/Magic/Divine/Poison are my highest, my disease is not bad but dang my cold/heat hit below 2k when I'm self buffed. And it's not like I'm in crappy gear either. My armor and weapons are all T7, only my helm and forearms are the T7 mastercrafted (I have a shiny Pally helm in my bags for when I get 67). I didn't invest in the T7 mastercrafted jewelry because I bought the T6 mastercrafted and for the price I don't think it's worth it. I did get the dark chitin ring from the den, so that's my only T7 jewelery, I would like to get the light chitin to go with that. But if I get that I'll lose 18STA + 40HP which will bring me down to the 6k hp unbuffed mark.To give you an idea at 64/65 I was at 6.5/6.6k HP self buffed I'm now 66 and I'm in the 6.2/6.3k unbuffed HP after getting dropped T7 armor that has more resists then stamina/hp. __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

08-08-2006, 04:17 AM	#49
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	Two wizards on their side. You don't have to worry about Qeynos wizards - they aren't going to be launching ice nova at you

08-08-2006, 06:45 AM	#50
Rocksthemic Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Have a question for you PvP'ers out there. Once you are exile, can you group with anyone else that is exiled without giving up your class? Like could you potentially have an exiled Paladin and an Exiled SK in the same group? Thundaarr Unrest __________________

08-08-2006, 10:54 AM	#51
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	Yeah that's correct. Keep in mind that if you're not grouped then it's open season for PvP - exiles can fight each other too.

08-13-2006, 09:39 AM	#52
falconx3 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 23	I dinged 70 pally the other day on Venekor. So I guess I can speak a bit on the Pvp Aspect. I can effectively solo necros. Hands down when they were orange I was killing them and now even reliced out necros I can win against. Yes we are not the most effective class for solo PvP but as stated before divine resists are overlooked. Toss out that group taunt on anyone (mines master 2) take out 1k of the targets divine resits (or encounter) and boom you gave yourself a chance at winning. The biggest thing I see in pally PvP is the spamming of our skills. Waste of effort really, the key is to space out our kicks and interupts and wait for the right time. We have a decent selection of stuns and interupts, why not use them. Now I dont find a ton of solo fights, most of the times ifa scout doesnt get a good opening shot on me they evac, so I cant tell. Groups is where I feel at home. I dont try to do damage that isnt my job. I spam taunts (maybe turning on consecrate) and heal/ward myself and the group to help the healers(this is assuming it is a fair fight). Let the DPS classes kill. Its been stated before we are a tank with heals. We gave up DPS for the ability to heal. Does it suck to not be able to kill all that well solo? Yes, so if you dont like it betray or reroll. My group since I was a tiny pally has consisted of normally 2 pallies, have we proved the theory(well some people say this at least) that pallies are useless for PvP. Yes Liluk and I have. Its always fun being that helpless pally in the freeps eyes and then being able to spank them.

08-13-2006, 10:30 AM	#53
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	Well grats Atuc. It is good that most Paladins enjoy their class in PvP. It can be an effective class, I've never denied that. But I stand by my original claim that any other class could contribute more to a group in PvP except maybe an Illusionist. That said, my opinion means nothing since I've given up. EQ2 holds no more surprises for me so it's back to waiting for the next big thing.

08-14-2006, 09:31 AM	#54
Kaleyen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: kk thx la~ Posts: 1,341	FalconX333 wrote: My group since I was a tiny pally has consisted of normally 2 pallies, have we proved the theory(well some people say this at least) that pallies are useless for PvP. Yes Liluk and I have. Its always fun being that helpless pally in the freeps eyes and then being able to spank them. Haha, he speaks the truth, the two pally group in PvP and PvE rocks! __________________ Blaye \| 80 Guardian \| Leader of Anomaly

08-14-2006, 01:27 PM	#55
lavasoul Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 116	I wouldn't say the class is weak. Sure we get interrupted a lot and I would love to see our spells and heal have shorter cast time. It's all in the gear and how you play the crusader class. I used to play on a blue server then later play on a pvp server and loving it. Our class isn't played by many cause our damage output doesn't look that attractive for pvp but that doesn't mean we suck. Crusaders is one of the best tanks to have in a group or even to solo for that matter. A lot may see crusader as a [Removed for Content] tank but I'll go ahead and let them think that way. You won't know if a class is good until you can play it well. I got friends that jumps from one class to another cause people say that certain class is good. __________________

08-23-2006, 01:01 AM	#56
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	as youve seen my other posts, i've rolled a beserker, lvl 13 at the moment.... wish i would have chose a beserker to begin with... i can honetly say after rolling a beserker the paladin class is weak. i can already tell the difference in dps.. rolling through even conned monsters and up too 2 lvls higher than me... and this beserker isnt even tweaked out with gear yet... cant wait to get him in some steel armor and tweaked out jewelry and a good 1 hander... as far as AA points,compared to a paladin's, its a wash, the beserkers aa's are far better than a paladins.... in regards to this post, you can say what you want about paladins being good or bad, if you like them or not.. i now know the difference, i'll still play my paladin, unless someone wants to buy him :] but for now the lvl 13 beserker is my main, and the lvl 70 pally is my alt... i wanted dps, and now i'm getting it, by switching to a beserker... as far as comparing the two class's, i will say this, the paladin class needs a SEVERE makeover, in dps and also AA choices! its that simple!!

08-23-2006, 11:20 AM	#57
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	I did the same thing about a year ago ChopS. I got my zerker up to 44 and it's a completely different class. The DPS of the zerker is pretty high. It's not quite what a monk's DPS is, but if the zerker is tanking he'll come out on top pretty often through riposting - that's the zerker specialty. However, I didn't play a zerker on PvP. I tried a guardian for a short time and I saw what the Paladin is missing - an auto taunt like the other fighters have that works in PvP. That's a game breaker for me as a Paladin. If our Amends did something in PvP that would go a long way toward fixing the class. The problem with comparing zerker and Paladin is that it's apples and oranges. Paladin is a hybrid healer class, so you're going to lose out somewhere. In this case Paladins lose out on DPS. They balance out because the Paladin can outlast about anything while the zerker or monk can beat something down before it beats them down. What I think you'll enjoy most is your ability to shrug off tons of damage with your mitigation buffs, interrupt on taunt, ranged auto attack, auto-taunt when hit, not being interrupted yourself (no spells), and using combat arts while moving. These are the things that I found as glaring flaws in the crusader class.

08-23-2006, 04:18 PM	#58
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	funny you should mention the attacks while on the move, that is the very first thing i noticed, and liked very much.. i wish i woulda rolled a zerker from the get go, believe it suits me better for my style of play.. i'm a little too aggresive for a paladin i think... as i've played a paladin for a while, the style of play i accepted was to try to keep some range at first, then go in too attack, which works very well.. but the beserkers mitigation buffs are just simply awesome, and the buckler aa line is very impressive..

08-24-2006, 02:32 AM	#59
Vathranen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	Be sure to pull with your ranged auto attack to get your skill up. From what I understand the Grizzfazzle bow on ranged auto attack does around 1k from a zerker or a guardian. That's more than I can do on the go as a Paladin.

08-24-2006, 04:38 PM	#60
ChopStix Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 263	haha, i have a bow equipped now, just need a quiver and arrows... and i'm having a blast with tihs lvl 15 serker... one funny thing that happened the other night in the caves.. i was lvl 13, and for some reason a lvl 16 asassin come up next to me while i was fighting a nasty gnoll, so i finshed the gnoll, and waited to heal up, looked to make sure he didnt have help while listening to the funny little ratonga laugh, then i laid into him, and smoked him, beat him down, he tried to run and zone under the waterfall, the last thing that happened was i smoked him with my imbued club and its proc went off and he was dead.. i was simply amazed and i dont think a lvl 13 pally could've come close to beating him... dont get me wrong i still love my pally,and what they stand for , i just think they need a severe overhaul and some lovin from soe developers.. thier dps is, well, just lacking alot... maybe a new spell called crusade or courage added into the mix for some more dps and aggro..and some real aa options that stand out like a couple of the beserker aa lines do..