Amends and other agro transfer spells

equinoxio · 06-28-2006, 05:53 AM

I've reacently been talking with some other tanks, not paladins, and they aparently heard that there was a bug that was between amends and other agro transfer spells (i.e murdurous intent, and the other scout transfer spells), that makes amends get bugged and not work, so the only agro transfer you getting is the one from the scout buff.

I honestly havent seen this problem, but i did noticed 2 times in 2 different groups that the agro was pingponging around even if i had amends up, the other dps in the group, there were 3 different ones and they agro was bouncing between them, I know that the different agro spikes the dps do some times make it harder to control an encounter, but i normaly dont have problem with agro in a group.

I was wondering if anyone have heard or have any info on this, and if it is true does it affect sigil of heroism?

Majorminor · 06-28-2006, 09:14 AM

I've heard of it, think it was a bug and has been fixed.

I group on a regular basis with a 70 warlock and 70 assasin. I amends the Warlock, assasin gives me his aggro. Works Great. Only time I lose aggro to the assasin is when the mob goes from yellow to red because he crits like an SoB hehe. But at that point the mobs gonna die in 2 sec anyway so hehe

Morgonn · 06-28-2006, 03:23 PM

I'm not sure how or why it works the way it does but when my ranger has his agro reducer buff on (Primal Agility line), our paladin MT does have more trouble keeping agro off him, even with the amends buff on him. I read somewhere on the forum (can't find it now) that this was because the scout's agro reducer had the effect of siphoning off some of the agro that that amends would normally transfer to the tank; in effect making that buff less effective. When I leave PA off, she has no trouble at all no matter what I do or when I choose to let loose my CA's.

Wulfborne · 06-28-2006, 04:35 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Amends works just fine unless cast on someone who has their own version of a hate reducer. (So you couldn't cast it on the ranger who has a aggro redux on, or it'd bug out). However, supposedly you *can* apply the amends to say, a wizard, and have an assasin dumping hate to you at the same time. Sigil of Heroism still seems to bug things out according to most, probably due to the 1st issue I mentioned of not stacking 2 hate reducers on the same person.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul

Matheos · 06-28-2006, 04:42 PM

I don't know whether it is a bug or intentional but my personal experience is that hate transfer abilities will not cross stack between two toons and that the last one cast will be the only one that works. However the scenario discribed above where you put amends on a caster and the scout puts his transfer on you works an absolute treat.

What I am happy about is that Sigil really does appear to work correctly now and doesn't overwrite amends! This is a cool ability to have to help recover aggro especially in asituation with multiple adds or on raids when some muppet in the whelp group over does it SMILEY

I have not checked what happens with other hate transfers though.

Matheos

70 Paladin Blackburrow

Harbingers Guild

Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-28-2006 01:44 PM

equinoxio · 06-28-2006, 09:02 PM

Well I have seen the problem with the agro when the dps burn down the mob, that i dont doubt, and probably it what happend in my scenario. Although there was a wierd thing that happend to me in a courts raid for guild xp, i was the MT, and one mob just went to the casters and i burned rescue, but it didnt worked, since the illusionist used his swarm pet that produces a mem whipe on the mob, it was just bad timing lol...

Last question, Wulfborn said: "Sigil of Heroism still seems to bug things out according to most, probably due to the 1st issue I mentioned of not stacking 2 hate reducers on the same person."

Matheosll said that sigil is working, and personally i havent seen any problem with it either, but my question is does amend stack with other agro transfer, say i put amends on an assasin, and he puts his agro transfer on me, so amends is 41% (master I) and murdurous intent is 22%, I would have 63% agro transfer from the assasin to me, would that really work? and if i use sigil i would be getting 32% agro (adept 3) to a total of 95% agro from the assasin and 32 from the rest of the group, is that even possible? not counting other agro transfer buffs from other scouts or the agro buff from the troub/dirges.

Majorminor · 06-28-2006, 09:11 PM

/shrug When the warlock isn;t in group I'll amends the assasin and he'll give me his aggro and I normally don't lose it unless, Like I said he crits like a SoB.

Leawyn · 06-28-2006, 09:25 PM

equinoxio wrote:

Well I have seen the problem with the agro when the dps burn down the mob, that i dont doubt, and probably it what happend in my scenario. Although there was a wierd thing that happend to me in a courts raid for guild xp, i was the MT, and one mob just went to the casters and i burned rescue, but it didnt worked, since the illusionist used his swarm pet that produces a mem whipe on the mob, it was just bad timing lol...

Last question, Wulfborn said: "Sigil of Heroism still seems to bug things out according to most, probably due to the 1st issue I mentioned of not stacking 2 hate reducers on the same person."

Matheosll said that sigil is working, and personally i havent seen any problem with it either, but my question is does amend stack with other agro transfer, say i put amends on an assasin, and he puts his agro transfer on me, so amends is 41% (master I) and murdurous intent is 22%, I would have 63% agro transfer from the assasin to me, would that really work? and if i use sigil i would be getting 32% agro (adept 3) to a total of 95% agro from the assasin and 32 from the rest of the group, is that even possible? not counting other agro transfer buffs from other scouts or the agro buff from the troub/dirges.

From all I know, Amends and assassins hate transfer do not stack. Also, when you cast sigil, I believe it does not add an additional 32% on top of Amends. It will take 32% from all the remaining members of the group (from what I understand).

The main problem with hate transfer and stacking is its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near impossible to calcuate if they do in fact stack or not. From my experience, if I have amends on a nuker type, and a scout has hate transfer on me, things work fine most of the time. If I happen to need to use Sigil, then hate tends to bounce for a bit until both me and the scout cancel and recast our hate transfers. It might just be a weird RNG that happens to happen after Sigil, but to be on the safe side, I usually just let the group know I used sigil and to recast any hate transfers and automatically recast Amends, just to be on the safe side.

Pins · 06-28-2006, 09:30 PM

Majorminor wrote:
/shrug When the warlock isn;t in group I'll amends the assasin and he'll give me his aggro and I normally don't lose it unless, Like I said he crits like a SoB.

But that means there's a problem. Because Amends+Murdeous Design give >50% of his aggro to you, which would mean, with just him attacking you should be above him in hate, no matter what he does.

MeridianR · 06-28-2006, 11:13 PM

There are numerous threads about this everywhere on these boards, but to sum it up:-- Murderous Design on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Assassin --- Do not stack-- Swarthy Disorder on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Swashie --- Do not stackYou CAN however have amends on another DPS (or whoever you put it on) and Murderous Design / Swarthy Disorder on yourself.Also - Enraging Demenour (Coercer) and Hyran's Seething Sonata (Dirge) do increase the % of hate you generate, but are not transfers.Sigil of Heroism is working as intended. The bug that used to happen, was it would cancel out the hate transfer on the person you had Amends on.

Caetrel · 06-29-2006, 12:26 AM

Everything Phov states is correct. I would add that you can have Swarthy and MD on you and they will stack with one another, in addition to stacking with amends as long as you have it on someone other than the swash or assasin.

Rocksthemic · 06-29-2006, 12:43 AM

Caetrel wrote:Everything Phov states is correct. I would add that you can have Swarthy and MD on you and they will stack with one another, in addition to stacking with amends as long as you have it on someone other than the swash or assasin.

Haha yeah... if you want to you can make your MT's life hell with that combo. Have wizzie in your group with amends, have swashy with Swarthy and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with MD on you.. and throw and Illusionist in there to give them all haste and procs. You have to actually try to not take aggro at that point lol. Thundaarr Unrest

MeridianR · 06-29-2006, 12:48 AM

I believe the best aggro I ever had was with a Coercer, Dirge and Amends on a Monk (raid setting of course).....nobody could pull aggro from me when I was tanking, and I could pull aggro at anytime. Of course this was in LoA, so ummm who really cares about it in there SMILEY

Rocksthemic · 06-29-2006, 01:45 AM

Yeah. I was talking about if you were acting as a hate soak or not in MT group. If you're the MT and have monk to put amends on, dirge and coercer throwing hate on you, you should never lose hate. Thundaarr Unrest

equinoxio · 06-29-2006, 03:54 AM

Thanks for the responce Phov, and everyone else, that really cleared all my doubts.

Dwergux · 06-29-2006, 10:54 AM

MeridianR wrote:There are numerous threads about this everywhere on these boards, but to sum it up:-- Murderous Design on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Assassin --- Do not stack-- Swarthy Disorder on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Swashie --- Do not stackYou CAN however have amends on another DPS (or whoever you put it on) and Murderous Design / Swarthy Disorder on yourself.Also - Enraging Demenour (Coercer) and Hyran's Seething Sonata (Dirge) do increase the % of hate you generate, but are not transfers.Sigil of Heroism is working as intended. The bug that used to happen, was it would cancel out the hate transfer on the person you had Amends on.

Do you have any testing about how Sigil interacts with other hate transfers like MD or Swashy?I haven't been able to test it, but I've heared rumors that although SoH seems to work ok with Amends now, it still bugs MD and Swashy.

Message Edited by Dwergux on 06-29-2006 08:54 AM

MeridianR · 06-29-2006, 04:41 PM

Dwergux wrote:
MeridianR wrote:There are numerous threads about this everywhere on these boards, but to sum it up:-- Murderous Design on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Assassin --- Do not stack-- Swarthy Disorder on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Swashie --- Do not stackYou CAN however have amends on another DPS (or whoever you put it on) and Murderous Design / Swarthy Disorder on yourself.Also - Enraging Demenour (Coercer) and Hyran's Seething Sonata (Dirge) do increase the % of hate you generate, but are not transfers.Sigil of Heroism is working as intended. The bug that used to happen, was it would cancel out the hate transfer on the person you had Amends on.
Do you have any testing about how Sigil interacts with other hate transfers like MD or Swashy?I haven't been able to test it, but I've heared rumors that although SoH seems to work ok with Amends now, it still bugs MD and Swashy.
Message Edited by Dwergux on 06-29-2006 08:54 AM

Personally I haven't experienced it, but I haven't done conclusive testing with just these factors going into it. I normally have either a Swashie or Assassin with me, and use Sigil everytime it's up (if I am tanking of course), and haven't seen them peel off....So either I am really lucky, or I don't believe there is a problem......but I will try to test when I can.

Majorminor · 06-29-2006, 05:52 PM

Pinski wrote:

Majorminor wrote:

/shrug When the warlock isn;t in group I'll amends the assasin and he'll give me his aggro and I normally don't lose it unless, Like I said he crits like a SoB.

But that means there's a problem. Because Amends+Murdeous Design give >50% of his aggro to you, which would mean, with just him attacking you should be above him in hate, no matter what he does.

True.

But Like I said, our assasin Crits Like an SoB all the time. He can out damage the Warlock if he really, really wants to, so No matter how much hate I have, when a mob goes from middle low yellow to red on health from on shot and every proc he has going off I'm lossing it. But who cares really the mob is dead 2 sec after that /shrug.

06-28-2006, 09:14 AM	#2
Majorminor Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 372	I've heard of it, think it was a bug and has been fixed. I group on a regular basis with a 70 warlock and 70 assasin. I amends the Warlock, assasin gives me his aggro. Works Great. Only time I lose aggro to the assasin is when the mob goes from yellow to red because he crits like an SoB hehe. But at that point the mobs gonna die in 2 sec anyway so hehe __________________

06-28-2006, 04:35 PM	#4
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Amends works just fine unless cast on someone who has their own version of a hate reducer. (So you couldn't cast it on the ranger who has a aggro redux on, or it'd bug out). However, supposedly you can apply the amends to say, a wizard, and have an assasin dumping hate to you at the same time. Sigil of Heroism still seems to bug things out according to most, probably due to the 1st issue I mentioned of not stacking 2 hate reducers on the same person.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul __________________

06-28-2006, 04:42 PM	#5
Matheos Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 19	I don't know whether it is a bug or intentional but my personal experience is that hate transfer abilities will not cross stack between two toons and that the last one cast will be the only one that works. However the scenario discribed above where you put amends on a caster and the scout puts his transfer on you works an absolute treat. What I am happy about is that Sigil really does appear to work correctly now and doesn't overwrite amends! This is a cool ability to have to help recover aggro especially in asituation with multiple adds or on raids when some muppet in the whelp group over does it I have not checked what happens with other hate transfers though. Matheos 70 Paladin Blackburrow Harbingers Guild Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-28-2006 01:44 PM __________________ Matheos 70 Paladin / 69 Armourer Hanelean 50 Templar / 70 Alchemist

06-28-2006, 09:11 PM	#7
Majorminor Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 372	/shrug When the warlock isn;t in group I'll amends the assasin and he'll give me his aggro and I normally don't lose it unless, Like I said he crits like a SoB. __________________

06-28-2006, 09:25 PM	#8
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	equinoxio wrote: Well I have seen the problem with the agro when the dps burn down the mob, that i dont doubt, and probably it what happend in my scenario. Although there was a wierd thing that happend to me in a courts raid for guild xp, i was the MT, and one mob just went to the casters and i burned rescue, but it didnt worked, since the illusionist used his swarm pet that produces a mem whipe on the mob, it was just bad timing lol... Last question, Wulfborn said: "Sigil of Heroism still seems to bug things out according to most, probably due to the 1st issue I mentioned of not stacking 2 hate reducers on the same person." Matheosll said that sigil is working, and personally i havent seen any problem with it either, but my question is does amend stack with other agro transfer, say i put amends on an assasin, and he puts his agro transfer on me, so amends is 41% (master I) and murdurous intent is 22%, I would have 63% agro transfer from the assasin to me, would that really work? and if i use sigil i would be getting 32% agro (adept 3) to a total of 95% agro from the assasin and 32 from the rest of the group, is that even possible? not counting other agro transfer buffs from other scouts or the agro buff from the troub/dirges. From all I know, Amends and assassins hate transfer do not stack. Also, when you cast sigil, I believe it does not add an additional 32% on top of Amends. It will take 32% from all the remaining members of the group (from what I understand). The main problem with hate transfer and stacking is its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near impossible to calcuate if they do in fact stack or not. From my experience, if I have amends on a nuker type, and a scout has hate transfer on me, things work fine most of the time. If I happen to need to use Sigil, then hate tends to bounce for a bit until both me and the scout cancel and recast our hate transfers. It might just be a weird RNG that happens to happen after Sigil, but to be on the safe side, I usually just let the group know I used sigil and to recast any hate transfers and automatically recast Amends, just to be on the safe side. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

06-28-2006, 05:53 AM	#1
equinoxio Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 118	I've reacently been talking with some other tanks, not paladins, and they aparently heard that there was a bug that was between amends and other agro transfer spells (i.e murdurous intent, and the other scout transfer spells), that makes amends get bugged and not work, so the only agro transfer you getting is the one from the scout buff. I honestly havent seen this problem, but i did noticed 2 times in 2 different groups that the agro was pingponging around even if i had amends up, the other dps in the group, there were 3 different ones and they agro was bouncing between them, I know that the different agro spikes the dps do some times make it harder to control an encounter, but i normaly dont have problem with agro in a group. I was wondering if anyone have heard or have any info on this, and if it is true does it affect sigil of heroism?

06-28-2006, 03:23 PM	#3
Morgonn Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 152	I'm not sure how or why it works the way it does but when my ranger has his agro reducer buff on (Primal Agility line), our paladin MT does have more trouble keeping agro off him, even with the amends buff on him. I read somewhere on the forum (can't find it now) that this was because the scout's agro reducer had the effect of siphoning off some of the agro that that amends would normally transfer to the tank; in effect making that buff less effective. When I leave PA off, she has no trouble at all no matter what I do or when I choose to let loose my CA's.

06-28-2006, 09:02 PM	#6
equinoxio Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 118	Well I have seen the problem with the agro when the dps burn down the mob, that i dont doubt, and probably it what happend in my scenario. Although there was a wierd thing that happend to me in a courts raid for guild xp, i was the MT, and one mob just went to the casters and i burned rescue, but it didnt worked, since the illusionist used his swarm pet that produces a mem whipe on the mob, it was just bad timing lol... Last question, Wulfborn said: "Sigil of Heroism still seems to bug things out according to most, probably due to the 1st issue I mentioned of not stacking 2 hate reducers on the same person." Matheosll said that sigil is working, and personally i havent seen any problem with it either, but my question is does amend stack with other agro transfer, say i put amends on an assasin, and he puts his agro transfer on me, so amends is 41% (master I) and murdurous intent is 22%, I would have 63% agro transfer from the assasin to me, would that really work? and if i use sigil i would be getting 32% agro (adept 3) to a total of 95% agro from the assasin and 32 from the rest of the group, is that even possible? not counting other agro transfer buffs from other scouts or the agro buff from the troub/dirges.

06-28-2006, 09:30 PM	#9
Pins General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,040	Majorminor wrote: /shrug When the warlock isn;t in group I'll amends the assasin and he'll give me his aggro and I normally don't lose it unless, Like I said he crits like a SoB. But that means there's a problem. Because Amends+Murdeous Design give >50% of his aggro to you, which would mean, with just him attacking you should be above him in hate, no matter what he does. __________________ Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

06-28-2006, 11:13 PM	#10
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	There are numerous threads about this everywhere on these boards, but to sum it up:-- Murderous Design on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Assassin --- Do not stack-- Swarthy Disorder on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Swashie --- Do not stackYou CAN however have amends on another DPS (or whoever you put it on) and Murderous Design / Swarthy Disorder on yourself.Also - Enraging Demenour (Coercer) and Hyran's Seething Sonata (Dirge) do increase the % of hate you generate, but are not transfers.Sigil of Heroism is working as intended. The bug that used to happen, was it would cancel out the hate transfer on the person you had Amends on. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

06-29-2006, 12:26 AM	#11
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	Everything Phov states is correct. I would add that you can have Swarthy and MD on you and they will stack with one another, in addition to stacking with amends as long as you have it on someone other than the swash or assasin. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

06-29-2006, 12:43 AM	#12
Rocksthemic Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Caetrel wrote:Everything Phov states is correct. I would add that you can have Swarthy and MD on you and they will stack with one another, in addition to stacking with amends as long as you have it on someone other than the swash or assasin. Haha yeah... if you want to you can make your MT's life hell with that combo. Have wizzie in your group with amends, have swashy with Swarthy and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with MD on you.. and throw and Illusionist in there to give them all haste and procs. You have to actually try to not take aggro at that point lol. Thundaarr Unrest __________________

06-29-2006, 12:48 AM	#13
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	I believe the best aggro I ever had was with a Coercer, Dirge and Amends on a Monk (raid setting of course).....nobody could pull aggro from me when I was tanking, and I could pull aggro at anytime. Of course this was in LoA, so ummm who really cares about it in there __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

06-29-2006, 01:45 AM	#14
Rocksthemic Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Yeah. I was talking about if you were acting as a hate soak or not in MT group. If you're the MT and have monk to put amends on, dirge and coercer throwing hate on you, you should never lose hate. Thundaarr Unrest __________________

06-29-2006, 03:54 AM	#15
equinoxio Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 118	Thanks for the responce Phov, and everyone else, that really cleared all my doubts.

06-29-2006, 10:54 AM	#16
Dwergux Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 353	MeridianR wrote:There are numerous threads about this everywhere on these boards, but to sum it up:-- Murderous Design on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Assassin --- Do not stack-- Swarthy Disorder on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Swashie --- Do not stackYou CAN however have amends on another DPS (or whoever you put it on) and Murderous Design / Swarthy Disorder on yourself.Also - Enraging Demenour (Coercer) and Hyran's Seething Sonata (Dirge) do increase the % of hate you generate, but are not transfers.Sigil of Heroism is working as intended. The bug that used to happen, was it would cancel out the hate transfer on the person you had Amends on. Do you have any testing about how Sigil interacts with other hate transfers like MD or Swashy?I haven't been able to test it, but I've heared rumors that although SoH seems to work ok with Amends now, it still bugs MD and Swashy. Message Edited by Dwergux on 06-29-2006 08:54 AM __________________

06-29-2006, 04:41 PM	#17
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Dwergux wrote: MeridianR wrote:There are numerous threads about this everywhere on these boards, but to sum it up:-- Murderous Design on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Assassin --- Do not stack-- Swarthy Disorder on a Paladin AND Amends from the same Paladin on the Swashie --- Do not stackYou CAN however have amends on another DPS (or whoever you put it on) and Murderous Design / Swarthy Disorder on yourself.Also - Enraging Demenour (Coercer) and Hyran's Seething Sonata (Dirge) do increase the % of hate you generate, but are not transfers.Sigil of Heroism is working as intended. The bug that used to happen, was it would cancel out the hate transfer on the person you had Amends on. Do you have any testing about how Sigil interacts with other hate transfers like MD or Swashy?I haven't been able to test it, but I've heared rumors that although SoH seems to work ok with Amends now, it still bugs MD and Swashy. Message Edited by Dwergux on 06-29-2006 08:54 AM Personally I haven't experienced it, but I haven't done conclusive testing with just these factors going into it. I normally have either a Swashie or Assassin with me, and use Sigil everytime it's up (if I am tanking of course), and haven't seen them peel off....So either I am really lucky, or I don't believe there is a problem......but I will try to test when I can. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

06-29-2006, 05:52 PM	#18
Majorminor Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 372	Pinski wrote: Majorminor wrote: /shrug When the warlock isn;t in group I'll amends the assasin and he'll give me his aggro and I normally don't lose it unless, Like I said he crits like a SoB. But that means there's a problem. Because Amends+Murdeous Design give >50% of his aggro to you, which would mean, with just him attacking you should be above him in hate, no matter what he does. True. But Like I said, our assasin Crits Like an SoB all the time. He can out damage the Warlock if he really, really wants to, so No matter how much hate I have, when a mob goes from middle low yellow to red on health from on shot and every proc he has going off I'm lossing it. But who cares really the mob is dead 2 sec after that /shrug. __________________