Paladin Vs Berserker - Tanking Skills - Page 2

Mortallic · 06-25-2006, 04:47 PM

People always talk about mit.... and always forget the for some mobs resists>mit.... and i don't think a Berzerker or Guardian with equivalent gear as a paladin will have more resists than the paladin

Anariale · 06-25-2006, 05:51 PM

Mortallicus wrote:
People always talk about mit.... and always forget the for some mobs resists>mit.... and i don't think a Berzerker or Guardian with equivalent gear as a paladin will have more resists than the paladin

Sigh, please be specific and tell me what mob the MT needs more resists than mit. Dont guess... some of us have actually been there and seen the mobs, and I can tell you from personal experience that Ive *NEVER* seen a mob that requires more focus on resists than Mitigation.The *ONLY* mobs a Paladin tanks "better" than a Guardian/Berserker are:1) Mobs highly resistant to Mental damage2) Mobs that have a high chance of 1-shotting the tank through debuffs (and then the Paladin is just an ablative shield for the real tank)

Mortallic · 06-25-2006, 06:04 PM

Anariale wrote:

Sigh, please be specific and tell me what mob the MT needs more resists than mit. Dont guess... some of us have actually been there and seen the mobs, and I can tell you from personal experience that Ive *NEVER* seen a mob that requires more focus on resists than Mitigation.

Any mob the hits hard for Divine and/or Magic is better tanked with a paladin, Cyenadros for example.

The *ONLY* mobs a Paladin tanks "better" than a Guardian/Berserker are:
1) Mobs highly resistant to Mental damage

errr, hmmm, what are you smoking? :smileytongue:

So, please don't guess...:smileytongue:

Anariale · 06-25-2006, 06:31 PM

Im not going to get in a [Removed for Content] match with some green noob who read a post somewhere once, but...1) Cyendaros has a magic AE, so pretty much everyone needs the resists, not just the MT. Even so, its cake to hit 9K to 1-2 resists for any tank. Its not cake to have 6500 passive Mit. Still, it doesnt matter because if you look at ANY parse from a raid mob, even Cyendaros, you will see that the damage done to the MT is more physical than magical.2) Mental resistant mobs resist Guardian/Berserker taunts. This means until the debuffs are in, its very difficult for them to get threat. Thus, by using a Paladin or SK with a Divine/Disease based taunt, they can get aggro from the get-go.W

MeridianR · 06-25-2006, 06:43 PM

Resists are never more important then mitigation, ever.....people can raise Divine / Magic resists enough to match our's and still have more mitigation.

uzhiel feathered serpe · 06-26-2006, 06:20 PM

umm....yeah, what Meridian said.

Any decent MT grp can raise the MT 's resists to cap. Resists will never be > mitigation. I have seen some palys brought to the mit cap, but its rare.

Generally speaking, its a safer bet to have a Guardian/ Bers tank because of their self buffs. You could stick 2 Palys in an MT grp for the AC gift, but ive only seen this once and as a joke.

Mit, hitpoints, aggro, etc all play a huge role. Sure Palys can tank some raid mobs, but for mobs like Tarinax and Vyemm, you want your best MT combo, and Palys as MT's arent, thats just reality.

Can it be done? probably, but why take the chance when repairs and time are so valuable.

We've had a Bers and a Guard tank Tarinax, and they were successful. Havent tried with a paly. Maybe one day, but its more important to get our claymore updates and loot.

MeridianR · 06-26-2006, 06:39 PM

uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

umm....yeah, what Meridian said.

Any decent MT grp can raise the MT 's resists to cap. Resists will never be > mitigation. I have seen some palys brought to the mit cap, but its rare.

Generally speaking, its a safer bet to have a Guardian/ Bers tank because of their self buffs. You could stick 2 Palys in an MT grp for the AC gift, but ive only seen this once and as a joke.

Mit, hitpoints, aggro, etc all play a huge role. Sure Palys can tank some raid mobs, but for mobs like Tarinax and Vyemm, you want your best MT combo, and Palys as MT's arent, thats just reality.

Can it be done? probably, but why take the chance when repairs and time are so valuable.

We've had a Bers and a Guard tank Tarinax, and they were successful. Havent tried with a paly. Maybe one day, but its more important to get our claymore updates and loot.

Sup Uzhiel, how you living man.....While we might be the best choice for tanking we can. I tanked Tarinax a week or so back due to one of our Guardians being away. Aggro was helped with having a Brigand with Amends, since those lucky [Removed for Content] can sit in the AE...Now granted I know we can tank everything in the game (we have had Guardians try the new FD stuff), but I do agree that the point still remains we could use a little help.

Matheos · 06-26-2006, 06:46 PM

Leawyn wrote:
Try again. I did try that. He still pulled agro. Thus why I staged my little "sit in" and refused to tank.

hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation. I can certainly undertstand how he was getting hate from you when Amends was on the Wizard and as a general rule I would always put amends on the scout class since they generate hate much faster than the wizard does. The only time the wiazrd is at risk would be if they open with Ice Nova or anytime they use Fusion.

I can only think that he had his hate transfer on you at the same time as amends and thus cancelled the effect as it won't cross stack. I have NEVER lost hate to any class on which I have amends working unless they screw it up with a hate transfer that is not as good as Amends. The skill with amends is finding the right class within a high DPS group to use as your aggro pump and explain to the rest about control =)

Matheos

70 Paladin Blackburrow

Harbingers Guild

Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-26-2006 03:48 PM

Anariale · 06-26-2006, 07:52 PM

Just to note, I tank Vyemm for our guild over our Guardian since Vyemm is highly mental resistant. However, Vyemm hits like a chump. Any MT group should be able to last indefinately against him. Its just whether or not the rest of the raid can survive.On the other hand, Tarinax hits me for around 7K auto-attack. No idea why, but he just clobbers the everloving [Removed for Content] out of me.

Message Edited by Anariale on 06-26-2006 11:53 AM

Wulfborne · 06-26-2006, 08:04 PM

MatheosII wrote:

hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation.

Unfortunately, these numbers are a bit misleading. They would be spot on if both classes generated the exact same amount of raw hate. However, it depends mightily on how well the Paladin can match the hate output of the Assasin.Example (using some extreme numbers to get the basis of my point across, so bear with me) - Assasin does his funky moves, jukes/jives, poisons and crits like the bad mofo he is... 10,000 raw hate gained. Paladin kinda sits back, throws a taunt and semi-watches TV...1,000 raw hate gained.With amends on the Assasin, you eliminate the 39% from his hate, reducing his raw hate to 6,100. You took from him 3,900, plus the 1,000 from weak output or whatever. Assasin 6,100 hate - Paladin 4,900 hate. Obviously the Assasin will still have the mob's attention.I'm not saying any of the above posters were slacking. I'm not saying amends doesn't help greatly (it does). I just want to make sure no one is lead to believe that amends is ever a dead lock on aggro. Any paly worth their salt will still work a bit to keep their group safe. SMILEY

~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul

Message Edited by Wulfborne on 06-26-2006 09:06 AM

Matheos · 06-26-2006, 08:39 PM

Wulfborne wrote:

MatheosII wrote:

hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation.

Unfortunately, these numbers are a bit misleading. They would be spot on if both classes generated the exact same amount of raw hate. However, it depends mightily on how well the Paladin can match the hate output of the Assasin.

Example (using some extreme numbers to get the basis of my point across, so bear with me) - Assasin does his funky moves, jukes/jives, poisons and crits like the bad mofo he is... 10,000 raw hate gained. Paladin kinda sits back, throws a taunt and semi-watches TV...1,000 raw hate gained.

With amends on the Assasin, you eliminate the 39% from his hate, reducing his raw hate to 6,100. You took from him 3,900, plus the 1,000 from weak output or whatever. Assasin 6,100 hate - Paladin 4,900 hate. Obviously the Assasin will still have the mob's attention.

Whilst numerically the numbers you post might be correct I was perhaps not clear enough in my description that amends in combination with our own hate generation will lock aggro from the assassin every time. If a paladin sits on his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and thinks that amends alone will do the job then he deserves to lose aggro.

The only time we will lose aggro if we are going our job is if there is a massive hate spike and it won't be to the guy with amends on. I have experienced this in a couple of situations. In the setup here with a scout and a mage it's the huge hits like Fusion (8-13k single hit) that are the risk which cause a big hate spike. Another possibility if there is another tank in the group and they are taunting to keep themselves second or third in the hate list in case of problems and then let lose a big damage ability (SK's are prone to this with their high damage hit) then they can also pull aggro. However if the fight is of a reasonable length and the guy with Amends knows that he is unlimited with his damage you can even control hits like fusion! What I would say is that both of these are temporary losses of aggro since the high level of hate cannot be sustained and amends + Pally will get it back pretty quick.

Matheos

70 Paladin Blackburrow

Harbingers Guild

Matheos

Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-26-2006 05:40 PM

Leawyn · 06-26-2006, 09:03 PM

You forget that most DPS people know their limits of what can and can't be done in an exp group to keep agro on the MT. They don't want agro as much as you don't want them to have agro.

This guy in my example was a recent betrayer to assassin. He was playing, since everything we were fighting was green and no real danger. Despite my best effort, spamming every taunt I had, even switching to offensive and putting on my dps gear to try that way, he was able to pull agro on every fight. Because he WANTED it. So yes, if a dps wants agro bad enough, they can take it. Even if you are "on" that night.

uzhiel feathered serpe · 06-27-2006, 09:37 PM

Meaningful self buffs that actually help us raid tank would go a ways towards making the Crusader a more viable raid tank. I shouldn't have to work 1/3 more than a Warrior just to tank the same mob.

I've always suscribed to the idea that ALL tanks should be able to tank the same mobs, just differently. Different buffs, different abilities, different mechanics. Nothing has changed since the game came out. Warriors are still preferred and better at tanking raid mobs than Crusaders. SK's have even more difficulty because they have no amends.

Hell, I would take an AA that gives me more AC, even if its half the AC that warriors get. Fact is that with the AA mitigation buff, coupled with their mitigation and hit points self buffs, Guards sit at almost 1 k more mitigation and hit points than Crusaders. Thats HUGE in terms of raid tanking. Throw in ToS and it becomes obvious why the Guard is preferred over the Paly. I am not sure what type of self buffs Bers have. I know they have the same miti AA and some self mitigation buffs. Not sure about hit points, but I would venture to say they can self buff to alot more mitigation than Palys, also making them superior in terms of raid tanking.

Thats my opinion. I started raiding 3 months after this game came out and been exclusively raiding ever since. Warriors were the preferred raid tank then and they still are now.

All I have to say about SoE improving Paly tanking is smoke and mirrors! :smileytongue:

But hey, I can do more damage while riding a horse! WOOT!

As for Vyemm, yah, he isnt very hard, but his AE is kinda annoying. I find myself more useful grp healing and spot healing (and rezzing) than being the MT. :smileysad:

Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 06-27-2006 10:43 AM

Anariale · 06-27-2006, 09:51 PM

Dont forget the Guardian's 20%-chance to proc stoneskin or whatever.Oh, but wait, we get a death ward thats 100% useless.

Rocksthemic · 06-28-2006, 01:02 AM

God yes that divine favor is about useless. I was un(lucky) enough to get it to master 1 one day.. woopty doo ! :smileytongue: If you are MT, you can't use it... I generally only use it if I have aggro from a mob I know it going to kill me yet not kill the tank right after. Other than that it won't even save you like FD would on a raid, because after the mob kills everyone else he will come for you lol. Gaurdians are the best choice for many reasons though. ToS, stoneskin buff (which if you have a dirge that is just that many more chances to proc stoneskin), and the best hp/mitigation buffs. Thundaarr Unrest

Zasp · 07-03-2006, 04:54 PM

I play a lvl 70 Dwarf Paladin, and yes agro can be a problem when tanking, but i use ammends heriosm and shield bash and taunts and intercept and i always get agro back.

As far as the best tank goes it is not class/armor/agro, it is skill. A god tank will always turn those mobs so their group is on its back. If ya do lose agro intercept and try to get back, but even if ya can't your intercept/heal/ward is to good to pass up. BUt usually you can always get back with applying the right skills.

For crying out load who wants to tank anyway, I am tired of that hard work, pulling, keeping argo lol. Paladin is the best fighter assist class in the game hands down, if ya havent tried assisting I suggest you do, cuz a Paladin is a pal indeed. With our abiltes and skills with the help of priests and other classes that MT will live longer.

A true Paladin is a Knight of faith, valour, honor, and zeal. We can't be matched our class is the most veristle class in the game we can do anything dps/assist/priest/tank.

Lord Obidah, Protector of the faithful of Antonia Bayle

Anariale · 07-03-2006, 06:36 PM

As far as the best tank goes it is not class/armor/agro, it is skill.In small-group things, sure. In raid situations... not really. Yeah, your tanks need skill, but odds are, they are all at the same level.

Sine · 07-04-2006, 08:11 PM

what is the equation to calculate mit cap per level. For example you are fighting a level 73 mob, how do you calculate the mit you need to cap it vs him/her/it?

Shackleton1 · 07-04-2006, 08:41 PM

I've not found paladin to be such a great group assistant. Built to assist... I think that's what's intended, maybe, but I don't think it quite pans out like that.

At lower levels, yes they're brilliant, but now I'm in the 50s I'm finding my wards and heals aren't keeping up. They're becoming less relevant. If the **** hits the fan, my wards and heals are no longer likely to mean the difference between death and victory (with the possible exception of Lay on Hands).

A beserker is really much better than a paladin in a non-tanking role. Their damage is much more useful at higher levels than a paladins drop-in-the-ocean wards and heals. And they're likely to be better tanks (gear and skill notwithstanding). I find not being the tank in a group to be a bit of a futile experience.

I think there's a problem when we offer less than beserkers in a tank role, and less than beserkers in a non-tank role.

However, it could be worse. In the grand scheme of things, we're still the 3rd best tank I think. I can tank any single group mob just fine. While frustrating sometimes to stand aside for a beserker and get the feeling that I'm a waste of space, it's not enough to make me start over.

Anyone reading this wondering if they should make a paladin or a beserker - my advice would be make a beserker (with the additional bonus that you can betray to a guardian later on if you feel like it).

Message Edited by Shackleton1 on 07-04-2006 09:42 AM

robusticus · 07-04-2006, 09:41 PM

MatheosII wrote:

Leawyn wrote:
Try again. I did try that. He still pulled agro. Thus why I staged my little "sit in" and refused to tank.

hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation. I can certainly undertstand how he was getting hate from you when Amends was on the Wizard and as a general rule I would always put amends on the scout class since they generate hate much faster than the wizard does. The only time the wiazrd is at risk would be if they open with Ice Nova or anytime they use Fusion.

I can only think that he had his hate transfer on you at the same time as amends and thus cancelled the effect as it won't cross stack. I have NEVER lost hate to any class on which I have amends working unless they screw it up with a hate transfer that is not as good as Amends. The skill with amends is finding the right class within a high DPS group to use as your aggro pump and explain to the rest about control =)

Matheos

70 Paladin Blackburrow

Harbingers Guild

Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-26-200603:48 PM

Skarize droags can generally one shot a wizard, so ice nova or fusion is instant death for them. Telling a wizard not to use those spells is a pretty quick way to disolve a group.

Pally tank + Assasin + Wizard means someone has to slack and it should be the assasin, barring having a bard or a chanter in the group. Also, it might be different if you have all master 1 & 2 taunts, amends. I am all at adept 3 for that stuff. But the best I could ever do in that situation is having the assasin peel towards the end of an fight when the mob is in the red. The good thing is that with grouped encounters it is only the target mob that will peel in this case, and like I said, not a problem if the mob dies 5 seconds after it peels to the assasin.

As for mit that old yarn again? I think even monks can cap mitigation these days, can't they?

Resists - blah. They only seem to help against mobs that don't pose a threat anyway. All but worthless against any dragon I've ever faced. Wasn't always the case I'm still confused when and why that changed.

Anariale · 07-04-2006, 09:49 PM

As for mit that old yarn again? I think even monks can cap mitigation these days, can't they?It is practically impossible to cap mitigation in the current raid game. You will see benefits of mit vs mobs even past the 10K mark, just as you see benefits of resists up past the 10K mark. The difference is, any momo can get their resists over 10K fairly easily, while Berserkers and Guardians have a MASSIVE (read > 1K) advantage in Mitigation over any other tank.

robusticus · 07-04-2006, 10:00 PM

Anariale wrote:
As for mit that old yarn again? I think even monks can cap mitigation these days, can't they?

It is practically impossible to cap mitigation in the current raid game. You will see benefits of mit vs mobs even past the 10K mark, just as you see benefits of resists up past the 10K mark. The difference is, any momo can get their resists over 10K fairly easily, while Berserkers and Guardians have a MASSIVE (read > 1K) advantage in Mitigation over any other tank.

Here's to 10 pages for this thread. SMILEY

Diminishing returns on the resists, do not dragons have like super buffed non-capped disruption skill or something?

And you aren't accounting for debuffs, are you?

R2Chie · 07-05-2006, 11:49 AM

Jonaroth wrote:Well a Bezerker will have more base HP

Berserkers get no HP or STA buff, chances are pally will have more hp. With 2 incombat health regens though we have about 150 in combat health regen solo buffed. (m2+m1 buff wise..)

Wabit · 07-05-2006, 12:57 PM

Anariale wrote:
Dont forget the Guardian's 20%-chance to proc stoneskin or whatever.

Oh, but wait, we get a death ward thats 100% useless.

our stonesphere abitlity??? only useful on mobs that have no AEs really, nothing like the templar or dirge buffs...

the mita difference between crusaders and warriors is less than 200 beacuse of the ability of crusders to use symobls in their ranged slot...

but really a plate tank is a plate tank... if i had to choose between the 2 classes of equal equiped/skilled i'd go with the zerker... paly has more utility that can be used in the raid...

Rocksthemic · 07-05-2006, 02:03 PM

Sorry, there is more than a 200 difference between crusader and guardian in mitigation, because of AA abiility. You can get like 300 more from that I believe? And that is base difference not taking into account 30 second buffs and the ability to cycle them, thus keeping your mitigation up approx 900 - 1000 higher for 2/3rd of the time. Thundaarr Unrest P.S. if I am wrong on the actual numbers of mitigation bonus from AA and 30 second buffs on top of that, my point is still valid one.

MeridianR · 07-05-2006, 04:28 PM

Rocksthemic wrote:Sorry, there is more than a 200 difference between crusader and guardian in mitigation, because of AA abiility. You can get like 300 more from that I believe? And that is base difference not taking into account 30 second buffs and the ability to cycle them, thus keeping your mitigation up approx 900 - 1000 higher for 2/3rd of the time. Thundaarr Unrest P.S. if I am wrong on the actual numbers of mitigation bonus from AA and 30 second buffs on top of that, my point is still valid one.

True, but as the last poster said....you have to take into effect that we can have mitigation in our symbol slot (Cobalt tablet, etc), and Warriors can't.Granted they can have better stats on different items, but they can't get mitigation on them....and really at end game, you can cap whatever stat you want pretty easily.

Ep · 07-05-2006, 04:45 PM

Comparing spells and aa abilitys is pretty much wrong imo.I know quite a few guards/zerkers who never went down the +314 mit line, it's a choice you make, not unlike the temp mit buffs we do get as spells for our class.Crusaders could have the option of having the most hp too, i've not met a crusader yet that goes down that aa that gives %hp, tho, but i don't use that as a baseline comparision between classes.Again aa's are optional builds, just b/c you deem it superior and a must have doesn't mean everyone uses it.Yes i go down +mit myself, but again i also know a few raid tanks that don't go down the same +mit line.

MeridianR · 07-05-2006, 05:26 PM

Wow any tank Zerker or Guardian who didn't go down the mitigation line, is a freaking idiot.

Wabit · 07-05-2006, 06:56 PM

the 30 sec buffs do nothing when your mita capped... so other than like 3 mobs those short term buffs are really nothing... even then when they are down it comes back to standing mita, so 200 difference is about right...

Pathin Merrithay · 07-06-2006, 08:26 AM

MeridianR wrote:
Wow any tank Zerker or Guardian who didn't go down the mitigation line, is a freaking idiot.

Game. Set. Match. Winner: Phov

Your choice between Paladin and Zerker boils down to one think. Do you want to consistantly endgame raid tank? If the answer is yes, choose Zerker. If not, you should then decide if you want more utility, or more DPS. If the answer is utility, Paladin. If DPS, Zerker.

This has been debated endlessly, but I beleive we're to the point where most everyone agrees Guards/Zerks are better endgame raid tanks. In any non-raid situation, it's either a straight wash or Pally's (In My Experience Only-capatalized for emphasis) have the edge. Personally, having played multiple classes into 30's, 40's and 50's, I would take a Pally in most groups. They tend to understand the specifics of agro control more.

06-25-2006, 05:51 PM	#32
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Mortallicus wrote: People always talk about mit.... and always forget the for some mobs resists>mit.... and i don't think a Berzerker or Guardian with equivalent gear as a paladin will have more resists than the paladin Sigh, please be specific and tell me what mob the MT needs more resists than mit. Dont guess... some of us have actually been there and seen the mobs, and I can tell you from personal experience that Ive NEVER seen a mob that requires more focus on resists than Mitigation.The ONLY mobs a Paladin tanks "better" than a Guardian/Berserker are:1) Mobs highly resistant to Mental damage2) Mobs that have a high chance of 1-shotting the tank through debuffs (and then the Paladin is just an ablative shield for the real tank) __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-25-2006, 06:04 PM	#33
Mortallic General Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 7	Anariale wrote: Sigh, please be specific and tell me what mob the MT needs more resists than mit. Dont guess... some of us have actually been there and seen the mobs, and I can tell you from personal experience that Ive NEVER seen a mob that requires more focus on resists than Mitigation. Any mob the hits hard for Divine and/or Magic is better tanked with a paladin, Cyenadros for example. The ONLY mobs a Paladin tanks "better" than a Guardian/Berserker are: 1) Mobs highly resistant to Mental damage errr, hmmm, what are you smoking? :smileytongue: So, please don't guess...:smileytongue:

06-25-2006, 06:31 PM	#34
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Im not going to get in a [Removed for Content] match with some green noob who read a post somewhere once, but...1) Cyendaros has a magic AE, so pretty much everyone needs the resists, not just the MT. Even so, its cake to hit 9K to 1-2 resists for any tank. Its not cake to have 6500 passive Mit. Still, it doesnt matter because if you look at ANY parse from a raid mob, even Cyendaros, you will see that the damage done to the MT is more physical than magical.2) Mental resistant mobs resist Guardian/Berserker taunts. This means until the debuffs are in, its very difficult for them to get threat. Thus, by using a Paladin or SK with a Divine/Disease based taunt, they can get aggro from the get-go.W __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-25-2006, 06:43 PM	#35
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Resists are never more important then mitigation, ever.....people can raise Divine / Magic resists enough to match our's and still have more mitigation. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

06-26-2006, 06:39 PM	#37
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: umm....yeah, what Meridian said. Any decent MT grp can raise the MT 's resists to cap. Resists will never be > mitigation. I have seen some palys brought to the mit cap, but its rare. Generally speaking, its a safer bet to have a Guardian/ Bers tank because of their self buffs. You could stick 2 Palys in an MT grp for the AC gift, but ive only seen this once and as a joke. Mit, hitpoints, aggro, etc all play a huge role. Sure Palys can tank some raid mobs, but for mobs like Tarinax and Vyemm, you want your best MT combo, and Palys as MT's arent, thats just reality. Can it be done? probably, but why take the chance when repairs and time are so valuable. We've had a Bers and a Guard tank Tarinax, and they were successful. Havent tried with a paly. Maybe one day, but its more important to get our claymore updates and loot. Sup Uzhiel, how you living man.....While we might be the best choice for tanking we can. I tanked Tarinax a week or so back due to one of our Guardians being away. Aggro was helped with having a Brigand with Amends, since those lucky [Removed for Content] can sit in the AE...Now granted I know we can tank everything in the game (we have had Guardians try the new FD stuff), but I do agree that the point still remains we could use a little help. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

06-25-2006, 04:47 PM	#31
Mortallic General Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 7	People always talk about mit.... and always forget the for some mobs resists>mit.... and i don't think a Berzerker or Guardian with equivalent gear as a paladin will have more resists than the paladin

06-26-2006, 06:20 PM	#36
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	umm....yeah, what Meridian said. Any decent MT grp can raise the MT 's resists to cap. Resists will never be > mitigation. I have seen some palys brought to the mit cap, but its rare. Generally speaking, its a safer bet to have a Guardian/ Bers tank because of their self buffs. You could stick 2 Palys in an MT grp for the AC gift, but ive only seen this once and as a joke. Mit, hitpoints, aggro, etc all play a huge role. Sure Palys can tank some raid mobs, but for mobs like Tarinax and Vyemm, you want your best MT combo, and Palys as MT's arent, thats just reality. Can it be done? probably, but why take the chance when repairs and time are so valuable. We've had a Bers and a Guard tank Tarinax, and they were successful. Havent tried with a paly. Maybe one day, but its more important to get our claymore updates and loot.

06-26-2006, 06:46 PM	#38
Matheos Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 19	Leawyn wrote: Try again. I did try that. He still pulled agro. Thus why I staged my little "sit in" and refused to tank. hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation. I can certainly undertstand how he was getting hate from you when Amends was on the Wizard and as a general rule I would always put amends on the scout class since they generate hate much faster than the wizard does. The only time the wiazrd is at risk would be if they open with Ice Nova or anytime they use Fusion. I can only think that he had his hate transfer on you at the same time as amends and thus cancelled the effect as it won't cross stack. I have NEVER lost hate to any class on which I have amends working unless they screw it up with a hate transfer that is not as good as Amends. The skill with amends is finding the right class within a high DPS group to use as your aggro pump and explain to the rest about control =) Matheos 70 Paladin Blackburrow Harbingers Guild Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-26-2006 03:48 PM __________________ Matheos 70 Paladin / 69 Armourer Hanelean 50 Templar / 70 Alchemist

06-26-2006, 07:52 PM	#39
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Just to note, I tank Vyemm for our guild over our Guardian since Vyemm is highly mental resistant. However, Vyemm hits like a chump. Any MT group should be able to last indefinately against him. Its just whether or not the rest of the raid can survive.On the other hand, Tarinax hits me for around 7K auto-attack. No idea why, but he just clobbers the everloving [Removed for Content] out of me. Message Edited by Anariale on 06-26-2006 11:53 AM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-26-2006, 08:04 PM	#40
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	MatheosII wrote: hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation. Unfortunately, these numbers are a bit misleading. They would be spot on if both classes generated the exact same amount of raw hate. However, it depends mightily on how well the Paladin can match the hate output of the Assasin.Example (using some extreme numbers to get the basis of my point across, so bear with me) - Assasin does his funky moves, jukes/jives, poisons and crits like the bad mofo he is... 10,000 raw hate gained. Paladin kinda sits back, throws a taunt and semi-watches TV...1,000 raw hate gained.With amends on the Assasin, you eliminate the 39% from his hate, reducing his raw hate to 6,100. You took from him 3,900, plus the 1,000 from weak output or whatever. Assasin 6,100 hate - Paladin 4,900 hate. Obviously the Assasin will still have the mob's attention.I'm not saying any of the above posters were slacking. I'm not saying amends doesn't help greatly (it does). I just want to make sure no one is lead to believe that amends is ever a dead lock on aggro. Any paly worth their salt will still work a bit to keep their group safe. ~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul Message Edited by Wulfborne on 06-26-2006 09:06 AM __________________

06-26-2006, 08:39 PM	#41
Matheos Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 19	Wulfborne wrote: MatheosII wrote: hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation. Unfortunately, these numbers are a bit misleading. They would be spot on if both classes generated the exact same amount of raw hate. However, it depends mightily on how well the Paladin can match the hate output of the Assasin. Example (using some extreme numbers to get the basis of my point across, so bear with me) - Assasin does his funky moves, jukes/jives, poisons and crits like the bad mofo he is... 10,000 raw hate gained. Paladin kinda sits back, throws a taunt and semi-watches TV...1,000 raw hate gained. With amends on the Assasin, you eliminate the 39% from his hate, reducing his raw hate to 6,100. You took from him 3,900, plus the 1,000 from weak output or whatever. Assasin 6,100 hate - Paladin 4,900 hate. Obviously the Assasin will still have the mob's attention. Whilst numerically the numbers you post might be correct I was perhaps not clear enough in my description that amends *in combination with our own hate generation* will lock aggro from the assassin every time. If a paladin sits on his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and thinks that amends alone will do the job then he deserves to lose aggro. The only time we will lose aggro if we are going our job is if there is a massive hate spike and it won't be to the guy with amends on. I have experienced this in a couple of situations. In the setup here with a scout and a mage it's the huge hits like Fusion (8-13k single hit) that are the risk which cause a big hate spike. Another possibility if there is another tank in the group and they are taunting to keep themselves second or third in the hate list in case of problems and then let lose a big damage ability (SK's are prone to this with their high damage hit) then they can also pull aggro. However if the fight is of a reasonable length and the guy with Amends knows that he is unlimited with his damage you can even control hits like fusion! What I would say is that both of these are temporary losses of aggro since the high level of hate cannot be sustained and amends + Pally will get it back pretty quick. Matheos 70 Paladin Blackburrow Harbingers Guild Matheos Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-26-2006 05:40 PM __________________ Matheos 70 Paladin / 69 Armourer Hanelean 50 Templar / 70 Alchemist

06-26-2006, 09:03 PM	#42
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	You forget that most DPS people know their limits of what can and can't be done in an exp group to keep agro on the MT. They don't want agro as much as you don't want them to have agro. This guy in my example was a recent betrayer to assassin. He was playing, since everything we were fighting was green and no real danger. Despite my best effort, spamming every taunt I had, even switching to offensive and putting on my dps gear to try that way, he was able to pull agro on every fight. Because he WANTED it. So yes, if a dps wants agro bad enough, they can take it. Even if you are "on" that night. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

06-27-2006, 09:37 PM	#43
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	Meaningful self buffs that actually help us raid tank would go a ways towards making the Crusader a more viable raid tank. I shouldn't have to work 1/3 more than a Warrior just to tank the same mob. I've always suscribed to the idea that ALL tanks should be able to tank the same mobs, just differently. Different buffs, different abilities, different mechanics. Nothing has changed since the game came out. Warriors are still preferred and better at tanking raid mobs than Crusaders. SK's have even more difficulty because they have no amends. Hell, I would take an AA that gives me more AC, even if its half the AC that warriors get. Fact is that with the AA mitigation buff, coupled with their mitigation and hit points self buffs, Guards sit at almost 1 k more mitigation and hit points than Crusaders. Thats HUGE in terms of raid tanking. Throw in ToS and it becomes obvious why the Guard is preferred over the Paly. I am not sure what type of self buffs Bers have. I know they have the same miti AA and some self mitigation buffs. Not sure about hit points, but I would venture to say they can self buff to alot more mitigation than Palys, also making them superior in terms of raid tanking. Thats my opinion. I started raiding 3 months after this game came out and been exclusively raiding ever since. Warriors were the preferred raid tank then and they still are now. All I have to say about SoE improving Paly tanking is smoke and mirrors! :smileytongue: But hey, I can do more damage while riding a horse! WOOT! As for Vyemm, yah, he isnt very hard, but his AE is kinda annoying. I find myself more useful grp healing and spot healing (and rezzing) than being the MT. :smileysad: Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 06-27-2006 10:43 AM

06-27-2006, 09:51 PM	#44
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Dont forget the Guardian's 20%-chance to proc stoneskin or whatever.Oh, but wait, we get a death ward thats 100% useless. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-28-2006, 01:02 AM	#45
Rocksthemic Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	God yes that divine favor is about useless. I was un(lucky) enough to get it to master 1 one day.. woopty doo ! :smileytongue: If you are MT, you can't use it... I generally only use it if I have aggro from a mob I know it going to kill me yet not kill the tank right after. Other than that it won't even save you like FD would on a raid, because after the mob kills everyone else he will come for you lol. Gaurdians are the best choice for many reasons though. ToS, stoneskin buff (which if you have a dirge that is just that many more chances to proc stoneskin), and the best hp/mitigation buffs. Thundaarr Unrest __________________

07-03-2006, 04:54 PM	#46
Zasp Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 10	I play a lvl 70 Dwarf Paladin, and yes agro can be a problem when tanking, but i use ammends heriosm and shield bash and taunts and intercept and i always get agro back. As far as the best tank goes it is not class/armor/agro, it is skill. A god tank will always turn those mobs so their group is on its back. If ya do lose agro intercept and try to get back, but even if ya can't your intercept/heal/ward is to good to pass up. BUt usually you can always get back with applying the right skills. For crying out load who wants to tank anyway, I am tired of that hard work, pulling, keeping argo lol. Paladin is the best fighter assist class in the game hands down, if ya havent tried assisting I suggest you do, cuz a Paladin is a pal indeed. With our abiltes and skills with the help of priests and other classes that MT will live longer. A true Paladin is a Knight of faith, valour, honor, and zeal. We can't be matched our class is the most veristle class in the game we can do anything dps/assist/priest/tank. Lord Obidah, Protector of the faithful of Antonia Bayle __________________

07-03-2006, 06:36 PM	#47
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	As far as the best tank goes it is not class/armor/agro, it is skill.In small-group things, sure. In raid situations... not really. Yeah, your tanks need skill, but odds are, they are all at the same level. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

07-04-2006, 08:11 PM	#48
Sine Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	what is the equation to calculate mit cap per level. For example you are fighting a level 73 mob, how do you calculate the mit you need to cap it vs him/her/it?

07-04-2006, 08:41 PM	#49
Shackleton1 Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 174	I've not found paladin to be such a great group assistant. Built to assist... I think that's what's intended, maybe, but I don't think it quite pans out like that. At lower levels, yes they're brilliant, but now I'm in the 50s I'm finding my wards and heals aren't keeping up. They're becoming less relevant. If the **** hits the fan, my wards and heals are no longer likely to mean the difference between death and victory (with the possible exception of Lay on Hands). A beserker is really much better than a paladin in a non-tanking role. Their damage is much more useful at higher levels than a paladins drop-in-the-ocean wards and heals. And they're likely to be better tanks (gear and skill notwithstanding). I find not being the tank in a group to be a bit of a futile experience. I think there's a problem when we offer less than beserkers in a tank role, and less than beserkers in a non-tank role. However, it could be worse. In the grand scheme of things, we're still the 3rd best tank I think. I can tank any single group mob just fine. While frustrating sometimes to stand aside for a beserker and get the feeling that I'm a waste of space, it's not enough to make me start over. Anyone reading this wondering if they should make a paladin or a beserker - my advice would be make a beserker (with the additional bonus that you can betray to a guardian later on if you feel like it). Message Edited by Shackleton1 on 07-04-2006 09:42 AM __________________ Shackleton, Patrician of the Guardians of the Blood Protect the descendants. Further their interests. Thwart their enemies.

07-04-2006, 09:41 PM	#50
robusticus Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 220	MatheosII wrote: Leawyn wrote: Try again. I did try that. He still pulled agro. Thus why I staged my little "sit in" and refused to tank. hmmmm interesting. With Amends on the Assassin at AdpIII we are syphoning 39% hate. This means that the assassins hate is down by 39% and ours is up by 39% giving a total hate differential of 78% i.e. almost impossible to grab hate when added to our own hate generation. I can certainly undertstand how he was getting hate from you when Amends was on the Wizard and as a general rule I would always put amends on the scout class since they generate hate much faster than the wizard does. The only time the wiazrd is at risk would be if they open with Ice Nova or anytime they use Fusion. I can only think that he had his hate transfer on you at the same time as amends and thus cancelled the effect as it won't cross stack. I have NEVER lost hate to any class on which I have amends working unless they screw it up with a hate transfer that is not as good as Amends. The skill with amends is finding the right class within a high DPS group to use as your aggro pump and explain to the rest about control =) Matheos 70 Paladin Blackburrow Harbingers Guild Message Edited by MatheosII on 06-26-200603:48 PM Skarize droags can generally one shot a wizard, so ice nova or fusion is instant death for them. Telling a wizard not to use those spells is a pretty quick way to disolve a group. Pally tank + Assasin + Wizard means someone has to slack and it should be the assasin, barring having a bard or a chanter in the group. Also, it might be different if you have all master 1 & 2 taunts, amends. I am all at adept 3 for that stuff. But the best I could ever do in that situation is having the assasin peel towards the end of an fight when the mob is in the red. The good thing is that with grouped encounters it is only the target mob that will peel in this case, and like I said, not a problem if the mob dies 5 seconds after it peels to the assasin. As for mit that old yarn again? I think even monks can cap mitigation these days, can't they? Resists - blah. They only seem to help against mobs that don't pose a threat anyway. All but worthless against any dragon I've ever faced. Wasn't always the case I'm still confused when and why that changed.

07-04-2006, 09:49 PM	#51
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	As for mit that old yarn again? I think even monks can cap mitigation these days, can't they?It is practically impossible to cap mitigation in the current raid game. You will see benefits of mit vs mobs even past the 10K mark, just as you see benefits of resists up past the 10K mark. The difference is, any momo can get their resists over 10K fairly easily, while Berserkers and Guardians have a MASSIVE (read > 1K) advantage in Mitigation over any other tank. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

07-04-2006, 10:00 PM	#52
robusticus Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 220	Anariale wrote: As for mit that old yarn again? I think even monks can cap mitigation these days, can't they? It is practically impossible to cap mitigation in the current raid game. You will see benefits of mit vs mobs even past the 10K mark, just as you see benefits of resists up past the 10K mark. The difference is, any momo can get their resists over 10K fairly easily, while Berserkers and Guardians have a MASSIVE (read > 1K) advantage in Mitigation over any other tank. Here's to 10 pages for this thread. Diminishing returns on the resists, do not dragons have like super buffed non-capped disruption skill or something? And you aren't accounting for debuffs, are you?

07-05-2006, 11:49 AM	#53
R2Chie General Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 99	Jonaroth wrote:Well a Bezerker will have more base HP Berserkers get no HP or STA buff, chances are pally will have more hp. With 2 incombat health regens though we have about 150 in combat health regen solo buffed. (m2+m1 buff wise..) __________________

07-05-2006, 12:57 PM	#54
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	Anariale wrote: Dont forget the Guardian's 20%-chance to proc stoneskin or whatever. Oh, but wait, we get a death ward thats 100% useless. our stonesphere abitlity??? only useful on mobs that have no AEs really, nothing like the templar or dirge buffs... the mita difference between crusaders and warriors is less than 200 beacuse of the ability of crusders to use symobls in their ranged slot... but really a plate tank is a plate tank... if i had to choose between the 2 classes of equal equiped/skilled i'd go with the zerker... paly has more utility that can be used in the raid... __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

07-05-2006, 02:03 PM	#55
Rocksthemic Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Sorry, there is more than a 200 difference between crusader and guardian in mitigation, because of AA abiility. You can get like 300 more from that I believe? And that is base difference not taking into account 30 second buffs and the ability to cycle them, thus keeping your mitigation up approx 900 - 1000 higher for 2/3rd of the time. Thundaarr Unrest P.S. if I am wrong on the actual numbers of mitigation bonus from AA and 30 second buffs on top of that, my point is still valid one. __________________

07-05-2006, 04:28 PM	#56
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Rocksthemic wrote:Sorry, there is more than a 200 difference between crusader and guardian in mitigation, because of AA abiility. You can get like 300 more from that I believe? And that is base difference not taking into account 30 second buffs and the ability to cycle them, thus keeping your mitigation up approx 900 - 1000 higher for 2/3rd of the time. Thundaarr Unrest P.S. if I am wrong on the actual numbers of mitigation bonus from AA and 30 second buffs on top of that, my point is still valid one. True, but as the last poster said....you have to take into effect that we can have mitigation in our symbol slot (Cobalt tablet, etc), and Warriors can't.Granted they can have better stats on different items, but they can't get mitigation on them....and really at end game, you can cap whatever stat you want pretty easily. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

07-05-2006, 04:45 PM	#57
Ep General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 435	Comparing spells and aa abilitys is pretty much wrong imo.I know quite a few guards/zerkers who never went down the +314 mit line, it's a choice you make, not unlike the temp mit buffs we do get as spells for our class.Crusaders could have the option of having the most hp too, i've not met a crusader yet that goes down that aa that gives %hp, tho, but i don't use that as a baseline comparision between classes.Again aa's are optional builds, just b/c you deem it superior and a must have doesn't mean everyone uses it.Yes i go down +mit myself, but again i also know a few raid tanks that don't go down the same +mit line. __________________ --- Sir Auron

07-05-2006, 05:26 PM	#58
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Wow any tank Zerker or Guardian who didn't go down the mitigation line, is a freaking idiot. __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

07-05-2006, 06:56 PM	#59
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	the 30 sec buffs do nothing when your mita capped... so other than like 3 mobs those short term buffs are really nothing... even then when they are down it comes back to standing mita, so 200 difference is about right... __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

07-06-2006, 08:26 AM	#60
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	MeridianR wrote: Wow any tank Zerker or Guardian who didn't go down the mitigation line, is a freaking idiot. Game. Set. Match. Winner: Phov Your choice between Paladin and Zerker boils down to one think. Do you want to consistantly endgame raid tank? If the answer is yes, choose Zerker. If not, you should then decide if you want more utility, or more DPS. If the answer is utility, Paladin. If DPS, Zerker. This has been debated endlessly, but I beleive we're to the point where most everyone agrees Guards/Zerks are better endgame raid tanks. In any non-raid situation, it's either a straight wash or Pally's (In My Experience Only-capatalized for emphasis) have the edge. Personally, having played multiple classes into 30's, 40's and 50's, I would take a Pally in most groups. They tend to understand the specifics of agro control more.